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Do people not realise this game is a MMO foremost?
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Paramedicus✭✭✭✭
I'll just quote myself (guy not resposible for selling this game), because post that i wrote in some other topic fits this discussion quite good:I'll go with what the guy who designed, built and runs the game had to say.
ESO is not really a traditional MMO, so we don’t use that term much around the office – and it is this distinction that separates it from other games. If you want to play it solo, like you did with other Elder Scrolls games, you can do that. If you want to play it super-grindy with dungeons, Trials, and group bosses as the core of you experience, you can join up with others and do that too. It’s really up to you to figure out how you want to play it, as we don’t enforce a play style one way or the other. In fact, ESO has been super-successful at taking gamers not used to massive online games, introducing them to the concepts of group play by making it fun and optional, and turning them into online gamers.
i dunno why people quote Matt Frior over and over again, as this would somehow make ESO not a MMORPG but something else, different and unique.
ESO is MMORPG with strong focus on story (so with strong solo support). Modern MMOs generally shifted to more causal, solo players, and those games which used more vanilla approach (hardcore group focus) didn't do so well (see Wildcard as example). There are other MMORPG with strong focus on story like SWOTR or Secred World. ESO isnt someting unnamed and unique. ZOS just keep telling you this stuff, so TES players won't be afraid to try out ESO. Which is understandable (i don't count it as some malicious manipulation), because single-player TES gamers may see MMOs as some hardcore group stuff like early WoW.
(i know that quote from Matt will be used till the end of time anywayz).
Edited by Paramedicus on January 22, 2020 9:36PMPC EU/script JumpToHouse("@Paramedicus")↑↑↑ Feel free to visit my house if you need to use Transmute Station or vet Trial Dummy with buffs and Aetherial Well (look for the Harrowing Reaper on the northern rock wall) ↑↑↑1 -
Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »ESO doesn't pretend to be anything but a MMO, its always been an MMO and its content will reflect that.
Not really, if it was a real MMO you wouldn't have instanced 4 man dungeons, because they are firstly set outside of the persistent world which was the basis for MMOs and secondly because they are not 'massively multiplayer', they are just a co-op lobby sidegame that should never be in a real MMORPG.
But of course they are in ESO, because over the years themepark MMOs have become less and less "MMO" in order to accommodate the casual non-MMO playerbase that has infested them, accommodating solo players is just part of that.
You are trying to redefine the term MMO so that it fits your argument. Rather than just accept this is an MMO based on the Elder Scrolls series. It is closely based on TES games to the point of crippling itself as an mmo to hook all those single player fanboys that have never played an mmo and would not typically even attempt one. Using the series fame in order to lure SP fans in and the persistent bugs open world to lure in MMO fans.
I have not redefined anything, an MMORPG being a massively multiplayer game set in a persistent world is a pretty standard definition, so I have no idea what you are on about.
Nor do you even seem to understand my argument.
So to clarify, those who complain about catering to solo players because solo is not "MMO"-like, whilst pointing to things like grouping up for a 4 man dungeon in a private instance as being the epitome of "MMO", do not have a leg to stand on.
Because the very thing they think is "MMO"-like (4 man private instance), is actually an example of something added to MMORPGs to cater to casual non-MMORPG players who basically wanted to play a normal multiplayer in a glorified lobby (AKA - modern themepark "MMOs"), rather than a real MMORPG.Edited by Sylosi on January 22, 2020 6:09PM1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭purple-magicb16_ESO wrote: »I'm not entirely sure that it is an mmo first and foremost. The preceding chapters (Skyrim, Obliviion...) were all single player rpg. I think this is an rpg that is expanding into the mmo market.
Those were not "preceeding chapters" to this game. (i.e, this game is not TES 6; the next single player TES from Bethesda will not be TES 7). This is a spinoff/side-game/etc - it is set in the same game universe, but is not part of the mainline series. Just like Battlespire, Redguard, Legends, and Blades aren't.2 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'll go with what the guy who designed, built and runs the game had to say.
ESO is not really a traditional MMO, so we don’t use that term much around the office – and it is this distinction that separates it from other games. If you want to play it solo, like you did with other Elder Scrolls games, you can do that. If you want to play it super-grindy with dungeons, Trials, and group bosses as the core of you experience, you can join up with others and do that too. It’s really up to you to figure out how you want to play it, as we don’t enforce a play style one way or the other. In fact, ESO has been super-successful at taking gamers not used to massive online games, introducing them to the concepts of group play by making it fun and optional, and turning them into online gamers.
Ill go with actual real world date proving that statement to be false.
Game labeled as MMO in genre? Check see below
Won mutliple best MMO awards? Check
Won many other mutlitude of mmo awards ? Check
Did the devs protest? No.
So you can post that quote all you want, it is, was, and will always be, an mmo.Edited by TheFM on January 22, 2020 6:44PM1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Wrong. It is labelled as "Massively Multiplayer, RPG". It is not labelled as "MMO".Ill go with actual real world date proving that statement to be false.
Game labeled as MMO in genre? Check see belowThe Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
So youre saying the game is not online? Are you really going to grasp at that final straw? Okay then. It is massively multiplayer, it is an rpg, it is online. By definition and the english language, it is an Massively Multiplayer ONLINE Role Playing Game. A game CANNOT be multiplayer, if it is not online, unless it is local split screen, and last i checked, this isnt local split screen.Edited by TheFM on January 22, 2020 6:53PM1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You are trying to disprove the quote where developer says that they do not use term "MMO" with the screenshot where they also do not use term "MMO". That doesn't work that way.So youre saying the game is not online? Are you really going to grasp at that final straw? Okay then.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Its the Elder Scrolls : Online
It is labeled mm and rpg
You must go online to play said MMRPG
You can call it an OMMRPG, an MMRPGO, or an MMRPG that must be played online, in the end, its the same thing.
FURTHERMORE it is made by ZENIMAX ONLINE STUDIOS.
Seriously =DEdited by TheFM on January 22, 2020 7:02PM1 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Wrong again. When you use widely used term (like "MMO" or "MMORPG"), you inherently imply all the features of other products that use the same term ("traditional MMO"). When you use some other term, even if it seems close enough, then you want to imply that there are differences. That is the whole point of the quote. It is not like developers try to hide that ESO is massively multiplayer (see "ESO has been super-successful at taking gamers not used to massive online games").You can call it an OMMRPG, an MMRPGO, or an MMRPG that must be played online, in the end, its the same thing.Edited by Olauron on January 22, 2020 7:12PMThe Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
So youre saying the game is not online? Are you really going to grasp at that final straw? Okay then. It is massively multiplayer, it is an rpg, it is online. By definition and the english language, it is an Massively Multiplayer ONLINE Role Playing Game. A game CANNOT be multiplayer, if it is not online, unless it is local split screen, and last i checked, this isnt local split screen.
No, the point is, if you're going to be pedantic about terminology and labeling, showing a pic that doesn't include the exact labels you're claiming, is going to get you pedantic "but it doesn't say X, it says Y" responses.3 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)
1 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)
Thanks for the 'Well Actually', but that's not the point. RPG's are not exclusively solo games.Tombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
So youre saying the game is not online? Are you really going to grasp at that final straw? Okay then. It is massively multiplayer, it is an rpg, it is online. By definition and the english language, it is an Massively Multiplayer ONLINE Role Playing Game. A game CANNOT be multiplayer, if it is not online, unless it is local split screen, and last i checked, this isnt local split screen.
No, the point is, if you're going to be pedantic about terminology and labeling, showing a pic that doesn't include the exact labels you're claiming, is going to get you pedantic "but it doesn't say X, it says Y" responses.
Wrong again. When you use widely used term (like "MMO" or "MMORPG"), you inherently imply all the features of other products that use the same term ("traditional MMO"). When you use some other term, even if it seems close enough, then you want to imply that there are differences. That is the whole point of the quote. It is not like developers try to hide that ESO is massively multiplayer (see "ESO has been super-successful at taking gamers not used to massive online games").You can call it an OMMRPG, an MMRPGO, or an MMRPG that must be played online, in the end, its the same thing.
no its just common sense. Its online, its a massively multiplayer rpg, made by zenimax online studios, ergo, mmorpg. This is hilarious you are actually arguing its not an mmo. What awards did t he game win? I will wait. Is it an online game? Is it massively multiplayer and an rpg? Next youll tell me Starcraft 2 is an action adventure game.Edited by TheFM on January 22, 2020 8:03PM0 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)
Thanks for the 'Well Actually', but that's not the point. RPG's are not exclusively solo games.
no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds.
otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it.
now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain.
this is what putting stories in a group dungeon does, especially these connected year of story dungeonsEdited by Linaleah on January 22, 2020 8:15PMdirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »ESO doesn't pretend to be anything but a MMO, its always been an MMO and its content will reflect that.
Not really, if it was a real MMO you wouldn't have instanced 4 man dungeons, because they are firstly set outside of the persistent world which was the basis for MMOs and secondly because they are not 'massively multiplayer', they are just a co-op lobby sidegame that should never be in a real MMORPG.
But of course they are in ESO, because over the years themepark MMOs have become less and less "MMO" in order to accommodate the casual non-MMO playerbase that has infested them, accommodating solo players is just part of that. You are trying to redefine the term MMO so that it fits your argument. Rather than just accept this is an MMO based on the Elder Scrolls series. It is closely based on TES games to the point of crippling itself as an mmo to hook all those single player fanboys that have never played an mmo and would not typically even attempt one. Using the series fame in order to lure SP fans in and the persistent bugs open world to lure in MMO fans.
I have not redefined anything, an MMORPG being a massively multiplayer game set in a persistent world is a pretty standard definition, so I have no idea what you are on about.
Nor do you even seem to understand my argument.
So to clarify, those who complain about catering to solo players because solo is not "MMO"-like, whilst pointing to things like grouping up for a 4 man dungeon in a private instance as being the epitome of "MMO", do not have a leg to stand on.
Because the very thing they think is "MMO"-like (4 man private instance), is actually an example of something added to MMORPGs to cater to casual non-MMORPG players who basically wanted to play a normal multiplayer in a glorified lobby (AKA - modern themepark "MMOs"), rather than a real MMORPG.
So to clarify, those who complain about catering to solo players because solo is not "MMO"-like, whilst pointing to things like grouping up for a 4 man dungeon in a private instance as being the epitome of "MMO", do not have a leg to stand on.
It's not people complaining about catering to solo players. The complaint is that solo players are complaining about having to engage in multiplayer when playing a multiplayer game in order to get the whole context of the storyline. That is a strawman.
"Because the very thing they think is "MMO"-like (4 man private instance), is actually an example of something added to MMORPGs to cater to casual non-MMORPG players who basically wanted to play a normal multiplayer in a glorified lobby (AKA - modern themepark "MMOs"), rather than a real MMORPG."
Uh, what? So, we're just making fantastical claims with zero support today, I guess. First off, this is a complete generalization about what YOU think other people think about the nature of an MMO. Second, a private instance has nothing to do with an MMORPG specifically and everything to do with the burden on a server. It's done for quality of life. I'd be interested to hear your idea of a 'real' MMORPG and how different that is from what YOU think other people think an MMORPG is supposed to be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_massively_multiplayer_online_gamesEdited by Kahnak on January 22, 2020 8:27PMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"2 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »ESO doesn't pretend to be anything but a MMO, its always been an MMO and its content will reflect that.
Not really, if it was a real MMO you wouldn't have instanced 4 man dungeons, because they are firstly set outside of the persistent world which was the basis for MMOs and secondly because they are not 'massively multiplayer', they are just a co-op lobby sidegame that should never be in a real MMORPG.
But of course they are in ESO, because over the years themepark MMOs have become less and less "MMO" in order to accommodate the casual non-MMO playerbase that has infested them, accommodating solo players is just part of that. You are trying to redefine the term MMO so that it fits your argument. Rather than just accept this is an MMO based on the Elder Scrolls series. It is closely based on TES games to the point of crippling itself as an mmo to hook all those single player fanboys that have never played an mmo and would not typically even attempt one. Using the series fame in order to lure SP fans in and the persistent bugs open world to lure in MMO fans.
I have not redefined anything, an MMORPG being a massively multiplayer game set in a persistent world is a pretty standard definition, so I have no idea what you are on about.
Nor do you even seem to understand my argument.
So to clarify, those who complain about catering to solo players because solo is not "MMO"-like, whilst pointing to things like grouping up for a 4 man dungeon in a private instance as being the epitome of "MMO", do not have a leg to stand on.
Because the very thing they think is "MMO"-like (4 man private instance), is actually an example of something added to MMORPGs to cater to casual non-MMORPG players who basically wanted to play a normal multiplayer in a glorified lobby (AKA - modern themepark "MMOs"), rather than a real MMORPG.
[Removed for baiting]
Look, by ( gaming) industry standards, this is an MMORPG. Its not a single player and there.are.no.single player elements to it. As soon as you login in to the server you are playing with other people. A LOT of other people. You may not think you are playing with other people, but you are. Why? Because... and i want you to pay very close attention to this part... because.they.can.and.do.affect.YOUR game world. Even when they are not physically present on your screen or in your group, you are playing with them.
When you are in Cyro, Battlegrounds and instances, you are playing with them. When you are questing alone you are playing with them. Other people alter your game world. You know why their are no resource nodes in this area? someone picked them 45 sec before you got here. Chest over there that didnt spawn? Oh it was there. 78 seconds to late. That fishing spot that hasnt respawned? Yep fished out by "not an NPC" 11 minutes and 6 seconds ago.
Even if we ignore how other humans affect your game world, they also populate it. They make it feel full and alive and dynamic as opposed to a single player game where NPCS are scripted and always do the same things, follow the same patrols and interact with you the exact same way.
The biggest different between a single player world and a MMO world is that the latter has a very dynamic "alive" feel to it and a single player world is very static and only changes if YOU change something.
This game is an MMO and will be until you can play it offline and no other human can affect YOUR gaming experience. You can play much of this game solo as opposed to cooperatively, but that is as close to single player as it will ever get. I think you are confusing cooperative play and MMO, actually. They are two totally different things.Edited by ZOS_Volpe on January 22, 2020 9:56PM4 -
Kahnak✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)
Thanks for the 'Well Actually', but that's not the point. RPG's are not exclusively solo games.
no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds.
otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it.
now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain.
this is what putting stories in a group dungeon does, especially these connected year of story dungeons
"no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds."
These types of stories only exist within RP guilds, period. The MMO you are playing is completely irrelevant. The stories in MMO's are not emergent or collaborative. They are predetermined and almost entirely linear.
"otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it."
This is obviously wrong considering that the stories in ESO and every other MMO are pre-programmed and continue on a railroad regardless of your personal narrative. While it may or may not provide the illusion that your choices matter, the outcome is entirely pre-determined.
"now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain."
How is this in any way like putting story in a dungeon? If you're in a dungeon with others you're not forfeiting parts of the story to anyone. You are experiencing the whole story alongside the other players. This is exactly the problem - people conflating an MMO experience with a Single-Player experience. That is not even a coherent allegory.
Edited by Kahnak on January 22, 2020 8:46PMTombstone Reads: "Forgot to get good"0 -
Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »ESO doesn't pretend to be anything but a MMO, its always been an MMO and its content will reflect that.
Not really, if it was a real MMO you wouldn't have instanced 4 man dungeons, because they are firstly set outside of the persistent world which was the basis for MMOs and secondly because they are not 'massively multiplayer', they are just a co-op lobby sidegame that should never be in a real MMORPG.
But of course they are in ESO, because over the years themepark MMOs have become less and less "MMO" in order to accommodate the casual non-MMO playerbase that has infested them, accommodating solo players is just part of that. You are trying to redefine the term MMO so that it fits your argument. Rather than just accept this is an MMO based on the Elder Scrolls series. It is closely based on TES games to the point of crippling itself as an mmo to hook all those single player fanboys that have never played an mmo and would not typically even attempt one. Using the series fame in order to lure SP fans in and the persistent bugs open world to lure in MMO fans.
I have not redefined anything, an MMORPG being a massively multiplayer game set in a persistent world is a pretty standard definition, so I have no idea what you are on about.
Nor do you even seem to understand my argument.
So to clarify, those who complain about catering to solo players because solo is not "MMO"-like, whilst pointing to things like grouping up for a 4 man dungeon in a private instance as being the epitome of "MMO", do not have a leg to stand on.
Because the very thing they think is "MMO"-like (4 man private instance), is actually an example of something added to MMORPGs to cater to casual non-MMORPG players who basically wanted to play a normal multiplayer in a glorified lobby (AKA - modern themepark "MMOs"), rather than a real MMORPG.
[Removed for baiting]
That says more about you than anything else.Anotherone773 wrote: »Look, by ( gaming) industry standards, this is an MMORPG. Its not a single player and there.are.no.single player elements to it. As soon as you login in to the server you are playing with other people. A LOT of other people. You may not think you are playing with other people, but you are. Why? Because... and i want you to pay very close attention to this part... because.they.can.and.do.affect.YOUR game world. Even when they are not physically present on your screen or in your group, you are playing with them.
When you are in Cyro, Battlegrounds and instances, you are playing with them. When you are questing alone you are playing with them. Other people alter your game world. You know why their are no resource nodes in this area? someone picked them 45 sec before you got here. Chest over there that didnt spawn? Oh it was there. 78 seconds to late. That fishing spot that hasnt respawned? Yep fished out by "not an NPC" 11 minutes and 6 seconds ago.
Even if we ignore how other humans affect your game world, they also populate it. They make it feel full and alive and dynamic as opposed to a single player game where NPCS are scripted and always do the same things, follow the same patrols and interact with you the exact same way.
The biggest different between a single player world and a MMO world is that the latter has a very dynamic "alive" feel to it and a single player world is very static and only changes if YOU change something.
This game is an MMO and will be until you can play it offline and no other human can affect YOUR gaming experience. You can play much of this game solo as opposed to cooperatively, but that is as close to single player as it will ever get. I think you are confusing cooperative play and MMO, actually. They are two totally different things.
Has nothing to do with what I wrote, if you find the "jumbled nonsense" I wrote too confusing, then well there isn't much I can do.
Edited by ZOS_Volpe on January 22, 2020 10:04PM0 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
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When I am doing Main Quest I am not playing with other people. In fact, I can't. I can use only chat to exchange my thoughts with other people just like I can use Skype to do the same when playing TES 1-5. Other people don't and can't alter my instances of the Main Quest. As such those are single player elements. There are others, guild quests for example. You will see other people (or you can see to be precise) in most game areas but not all.Anotherone773 wrote: »Look, by ( gaming) industry standards, this is an MMORPG. Its not a single player and there.are.no.single player elements to it. <snip> When you are questing alone you are playing with them. Other people alter your game world.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.0 -
Smitch_59✭✭✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »<snip>
Look, by ( gaming) industry standards, this is an MMORPG. Its not a single player and there.are.no.single player elements to it. <snip>
The Harborage, Fighters Guild and Mages Guild questlines are all exclusively single-player instances. Just sayin'.By Azura, by Azura, by Azura!1 -
Lucious90✭✭✭Ive said it before, it comes down to peoples expectations of the game. They see TES and think Morrowind (for those older Millennials) SKyrim, and other TES titles that had/have great stories but lacked any kind of actual human interaction that comes in an MMO like environment.
They come here expecting the same thing or the online side to take a big back seat and have this solo experience, while yes you can solo most of the story line and see all of the intricate details of the story, you cant be *surprised pikachu face* when you have group content.
Xbox/NA
Naturegoat - Stam Warden
Healgoat- Mag temp
Staticgoat- Stam Sorc1 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Yes it is an MMO. And like another successful MMO, Path of Exile, all story content must be PvE SOLO-able.
It's not a new idea. SWTOR has been doing it for years. ZOS is obviously doing it all wrong, completely behind the times.
Only traders need the Massively Multiplayer part on all the time, to swindle other players with overpriced goods that can be bought more cheaply from an NPC vendor. Without a huge population of suckers, they can't make their millions.
Except Path of Exile is not an MMO, it's an online action RPG.
The MMO world agrees Path of Exile is an MMO no matter what the play style. Because lots of people are online at the same time playing it. That's the MULTIPLAYER. part.
Y'all just in denial and think that Multi only equals fighting together. There's also trading and talking to each other. Not every aspect has to involve direct interaction with people or in a narrowly defined range of activities.
http://topfreemmorpg.net/path-of-exile-review/
https://www.mmorpg.com/path-of-exile
https://www.mmogames.com/game/path-of-exile/
https://mmohuts.com/game/path-of-exile/
Edited by Dusk_Coven on January 22, 2020 9:11PM4 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)Kiralyn2000 wrote: »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_of_Lion_Castle
(and doing a google search, I found multiple sites with resources & adventures for playing tabletop D&D solo.)
Thanks for the 'Well Actually', but that's not the point. RPG's are not exclusively solo games.
no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds.
otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it.
now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain.
this is what putting stories in a group dungeon does, especially these connected year of story dungeons
"no, they are not, but the interesting thing about DnD is that its an emergent story. its a story you create together, even if preset modules come with the guildlines of when encounters will happen, or where the story is going - its STILL an emergent, collaborative story that you build together. in ESO, these types of stories ONLY exist within role playing guilds."
These types of stories only exist within RP guilds, period. The MMO you are playing is completely irrelevant. The stories in MMO's are not emergent or collaborative. They are predetermined and almost entirely linear.
"otherwise, pre-programmed stories tend to be solo. because - you cannot program in flexibility of a DM. the beauty of an MMO is that it creates an environment for people where they don't need to do as much pretend when it comes to their environments, where their avatars are not static, but move around and interact with a world - its a next way to create those emergent narratives together. but at the same time - and again, this is a beauty of an MMO. you can do an equivalent of going to a busy park on a summer day with other people around listening to music, playing, doing whatever - and then sit down on a bench on your own and read a book alone, while still enjoying being a part of a massive world with all kinds of people in it."
This is obviously wrong considering that the stories in ESO and every other MMO are pre-programmed and continue on a railroad regardless of your personal narrative. While it may or may not provide the illusion that your choices matter, the outcome is entirely pre-determined.
"now imagine. you go into a park to read book, but you cannot just read your book alone, nope. you HAVE to constantly pass it along to 3 other people. and if they read past the part that you stopped reading at? you cannot go back and catch up - you have to start reading from the part where they stopped. whatever you missed in between (becasue no one is reading the book outloud either) - well tough luck. unless you abandon the book completely and try again from the start later? you don't get to read it in its entirety. and the only way to even read this book yourself s in that park, because the book is chained to that specific bench. you might be able to find a recording of someone else reading this book, but their cadence is all wrong and they are still skipping parts you were interested in. and the best part? the best part - that book is part of the series, where some of the books you can read on your own at your own pace, but the first and third book? only in that park, on that chain."
How is this in any way like putting story in a dungeon? If you're in a dungeon with others you're not forfeiting parts of the story to anyone. You are experiencing the whole story alongside the other players. This is exactly the problem - people conflating an MMO experience with a Single-Player experience. That is not even a coherent allegory.
to the points 1 and 2, i'm not sure what you are trying to refute as we are not actualy disagreeing. MMO, regardless of which MMo (which is why i said MMO, NOT ESO specificaly) is a massive world that give people a playground to play in. pre-programmed stories are pre-programmed stories. you basically rephrased what i said, but framed it as an argument against what I said?
as for dungeons? no. because you are at mercy of the pace other people go at and becasue in a lot of these dungeons npc's move on the moment first person to finish reading the text - moves on. moreover - there is dialogue/explorative/lore options in between that do not progress the quest that you may or may not get to see depending on how slowly your group is willing to go.
it is a coherent allegory if you had every attempted to do ALL of the story, including optional bits within the dungeondirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***1 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorry, not going to read all six pages of this stuff, but just add my two cents: It is an MMO, I don't disagree. And there are elements that I think you should adjust to for that reason. I personally prefer single player games over multi-player (whether massive or not) at this point in my life and even though I'm fine playing through the quests in this game by myself, I don't expect that same experience. No matter how good the quests are, they still don't deliver the same way single player quests do and that's just how it is. No matter how much I want to focus on myself, I know there are others that will be running around doing the same quests or other tasks all around me. You should be realistic.
That being said, I don't have a problem with players asking for features in the game they might like better that are less MMO like. Doesn't mean they should get them (whether it's a balance issue, or time issue, etc). For example I had no problem with the idea of a story mode for 4 man dungeons, but I would not give the same drops in the story version. If you are there for the story, then you get the story, not the 4-man dungeon rewards. But in the end, this is a company, they want to earn money/customers, they can decide if there are investments in making content accessible to various player types or if it's not worth it for them to not deliver a service because doesn't pay off in the time/work they would invest.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »Yes it is an MMO. And like another successful MMO, Path of Exile, all story content must be PvE SOLO-able.
It's not a new idea. SWTOR has been doing it for years. ZOS is obviously doing it all wrong, completely behind the times.
Only traders need the Massively Multiplayer part on all the time, to swindle other players with overpriced goods that can be bought more cheaply from an NPC vendor. Without a huge population of suckers, they can't make their millions.
Except Path of Exile is not an MMO, it's an online action RPG.
The MMO world agrees Path of Exile is an MMO no matter what the play style. Because lots of people are online at the same time playing it. That's the MULTIPLAYER. part.
Y'all just in denial and think that Multi only equals fighting together. There's also trading and talking to each other.
http://topfreemmorpg.net/path-of-exile-review/
https://www.mmorpg.com/path-of-exile
https://www.mmogames.com/game/path-of-exile/
https://mmohuts.com/game/path-of-exile/
Eh, that's broadening the definition of "MMO" to the point of uselessness. Except for the fact you see some other players in the hubs, PoE is entirely instanced to the player & his/her group. It's a lobby game, with a prettier lobby. It's Diablo, with an interactive chatroom.
edit: it's certainly multiplayer and online. "Massively" though? I don't think I've seen more than a dozen players in the hubs when I've played the game. I guess the chat window would reach more - wouldn't know, though, since I've never used chat or interacted with anyone else.
But if "I can chat with lots" makes it massively multiplayer even when I'm playing alone, then my time playing Flash games on Kongregate was also an MMO. Because while I was playing solo Flash games, I had a chat box with lots of people in it.Edited by Kiralyn2000 on January 22, 2020 9:15PM0 -
Sylosi✭✭✭✭✭It's not people complaining about catering to solo players. The complaint is that solo players are complaining about having to engage in multiplayer when playing a multiplayer game in order to get the whole context of the storyline. That is a strawman.
The only "strawman" is above.Uh, what? So, we're just making fantastical claims with zero support today, I guess. First off, this is a complete generalization about what YOU think other people think about the nature of an MMO. Second, a private instance has nothing to do with an MMORPG specifically and everything to do with the burden on a server. It's done for quality of life. I'd be interested to hear your idea of a 'real' MMORPG and how different that is from what YOU think other people think an MMORPG is supposed to be.
Wrong, private instances have nothing to do with the burden on a server, MMORPGs without private instances still have instances to deal with server load, just as this one does for its public instances such as open world, public dungeons, Cyrodil, etc.
Private instances came into being to appeal to a wider audience of casual non-MMORPG players who didn't like the 'massively multiplayer' aspect of MMORPGs such as public dungeons and basically wanted to play just a normal 'multiplayer' much of the time. So little Brad could play with his three buddies, but not have to interact with anyone else in a meaningful way. Same reason PvP got increasingly separated off that upset little Brad also, that LFG tools replaced people actually having to interact in a supposed 'massively multiplayer' game, how they added the ability to basically teleport anywhere so you can sit in a town and essentially you had modern themepark MMORPGs that let people play them like a lobby mulitplayer rather than a real MMORPG. And resulted in the shallow "communities" you have now in these themepark MMORPGs and a persistent world that is often reduced to nothing more than a glorified waiting lobby for many players.
Now if you can't grasp that, well...Edited by Sylosi on January 22, 2020 9:35PM0 -
jlb1705✭✭✭This is like the bodybuilding forum thread from back in the day where they argued over how many days are in a week. Please keep this going.0
This discussion has been closed.