Why is PVP so disregarded/irrelevant to updates?
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Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think what the PvP community wants more than anything, more than content or zone changes or new mechanics for Cyrodiil, is performance improvement.
Nothing else matters if PvP results in lag, disconnects and a bad experience.1 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Probably because the PvP community would just scream at ZOS to nerf what they do give them so why bother?
It’s true. Though I blame some of the PVP decline on some players. Granted, servers in Cp are terrible and that’s most of it.
The drama, broken exploit builds and abhorrent, childish behavior is a huge turn off for new blood coming in.3 -
xWarbrain✭✭✭✭✭Why is there such a small focus on PVP with these updates?
There’s close to 0 attention being paid to it and this year all we get is a siege weapon...?
What happened to the new daedric items coming into the game like Volendrung?
The new content all looks great I’m all for it and appreciate the efforts, but damn, PVP has been out in the cold for so long now it kinda sucks.
PvP doesn't even need anything new. Just fix the lag. Imagine if the game worked smoothly? I just want my abilities to fire and my bar to swap when I press the button ONCE.XB1 NA
Your nerf suggestion is dumb. Learn to counter other players instead of having the game rebuilt to your ability level.3 -
Saltisol✭✭✭✭Both sides seems to be full of "know it alls" and are so ceratin in their beleifs even though in most cases they just don't have any information, it's mostly based on opinions and what they think at this very moment.
I don't understand why pve'ers are so against adding more pvp content. Can someone explain why you are so against that ?1 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Curious_Death wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »Curious_Death wrote: »Because this isn't a PvP focused game and never has been.
no never... the only end game content in EVERY MMO... what u will do when u get tons of gold? tons of best items? u will go and help beginners? u will stay in the middle of craglorn and thinks how good u re? ofc u will make good pvp gear and try urself in fighting with other human being... its the ultimate and non-predictible content of EVERY game!
Everything in ESO is endgame. Ive been playing 3-4 years and i still have A LOT to do. I havent completed a third of the game on my oldest character who has just over 1600 hours of play and is the furthest along. If you think PVP is the only endgame content, it is because you want it to be YOUR only end game content.
NO... just did everything that i could... got all perfected gear... and tell me that doing quests is challenging as 810 cp gold geared player... ehh... we want challenges... and theres nothing more challenging than PVP coz players re not so predictible as monsters in pve.
Edit: My apologizes for the lack of proofreading and terrible grammar below. I was multitasking and didnt proofread, also dont want to fix it while enjoying lunch. I think you can get the Hist of it there.
Not everyone wants to be challenged all the time. I run a small company in the day time. My wife creates training programs for a global fortune 100 company. We are challenged for 8,10,12 plus hours a day. We sometimes dont have the mental capacity when we play to place furniture in a house or to do crafting writs. We dont want constantly be challenged because not everything in life needs to be and uphill battle.
Also, and this is not meant towards you , many people who complain about endgame being to easy or trials and vet dungeons needing to be more challenging make me laugh. These same people run this content with "pro" groups who have players that invest a lot of time or effort into playing and some of which are perfectionist and who play together.
These little cliques are like pro sports players VS local/junior/college leagues and then complain because the other team is not challenging enough. Ill use Alcast as an example, though from what i can tell he is nothing like this just need to borrow his fame and abilities. This would be like Alcast and his trial group, Hodor, complaining about how easy content is when they are the pinnacle of a trial group. Alcast, on the other hand uses his talents and love of the game to create all sorts of builds and help many players find a direction to go with their characters and step to get to an end result they want.
If the game isnt hard enough for someone then they need to consider making it more challenging for themselves instead of demanding that ZOS make it more challenging for everyone. One way these "pro" players could do this is stop running content with other "pro"players. What is the fun in doing content with a bunch of clones? You want a real challenge try running content with us filthy casuals. Dont drop out, kick us, or throw a tantrum because we are doing 5 billion dps on the first boss or because we didnt watch 8 hrs of videos, or spend 2 hours a night practicing a rotation or other ridiculous nonsense.
I see that a lot in this game. Elite players that whine about how easy the game is but as soon as you take away all their expert end game content friends and replace them with average players they are like " OMG this is so hard! i dont have time to actually do the mechanics! People need to learn how to play because i am tired of carrying them. If they arent going to learn how to do a rotation and do at least 35k dps, im going to kick them because ive ran this instance like 500 times and i dont want to spend any more than 15 minutes in it!"
That is what makes me laugh, because these same people complain how the game is easy...but its like they only want to play it on godmode and as soon as you present them with the challenge of playing with the average player they are like " Well you need to go watch videos and do research and practice and come back when you can do X,Y, and Z !"
So they dont actually want harder content. They want more content they can run with god mode on and then pat themselves on the back with how good they are at this game. You want a challenge run content with average players and dont berate them, belittle them, try to force them to improve, kick them, or leave group. Play with them, drop them a hint or two in the run. Something they can take away from it. Have a conversation with them. Make a friend. Be a mentor. Socialize.
My wife actually teaches this... Not everyone learns the same way. My wife is hands on with a little bit of visual. I am more hands on than visual but more visual than she is. Her imagination is crap. She needs to see things physically. I can imagine them. Some people audio. Some people learn better with videos and some with reading and some with doing.
Some people dont want to turn it their game into a college course. Some have very boring jobs or no jobs and want something to give them a challenge. Run some average players through end game content, help them out. You will find it far more rewarding and challenging doing that content with a group of mediocre players than you will a bunch of pro content runners.Edited by Anotherone773 on January 17, 2020 6:20PM7 -
Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »Probably because the PvP community would just scream at ZOS to nerf what they do give them so why bother?
Pretty much. The amount of complaints calling for the nerfing of templars/dragonknights/nightblades/sorcs/whatever killed me is hilarious. They know that people already scream about Volendrung being op every now and then. Adding more daedric items would just add more tears to the fire. Plus they tried with sload's and that set caused a massive wave of mess.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »
Congratulations you are a rare outlier?
Statistics still don't favor PVPers are money spenders in PVE oriented games.
No he is not, have 4 ESO plus accounts and players in the household who have spent embarrassingly large amounts of money in the Crown store going on for almost 6 years now.
We all PvP. Please don't make up facts.
Edit - In addition I bet PvP has sold more riding lessons than PvE. lol
Edited by TequilaFire on January 17, 2020 3:37PM3 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭Because it doesn't appeal to casual gamers, which I assume are their biggest consumers.
I'm in three pvp guilds with tons of casual gamers. In fact, a majority of us put our personal lives forward and casually jump on. BG's also offer that space. Log in, play a BG, Log out, get crap done around the house1 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭PVPers do not pay money but complain the most. So why bother?
Everyone pays money. A majority of sales are through ESO + (bag space, access to DLCs, including Imperial city). Reskinned crap appeals to everyone, from rp, pve, to pvp and erp. Whatever, people like to customize their crap, and look stylish. So it's not a specific type of gamer bringing in money, it's the gamer themself who wants some style. Hence all of the loot boxes, style motifs ect
I'm not sure if you are aware of how much pve content pvpers have to run. All monster helms are through PVE, Master Weapons, BRP, undaunted, and tons of great sets. All of my pvp guilds regularly run pve because you MUST get items from PVE to be competitive in PVP. You also need to be good at PVE, you're not going to pug vdsa or vbrp to grind out the gear you want. Sorry to say, us pvpers are a big chunk of the pve community. ***GASP***
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thadjarvis✭✭✭✭PvE focused players get salty when PvP is mentioned because they only can win against a Taunted Boss with repetitive mechanics and a healer on their back. When a real person defeats them, they come here to cry nerf.
It seems people don’t understand that there are players that enjoy both PvP and PvE content and are expecting to see both sides get new stuff.
I do PvP and I do PvE. i’ve been zerged, bamboozled, bagged, trolled, pwned i’ve done the same thing back. I’ve lived the puglife with my tank well enough to come across good players, new clueless playes to help and terrible ones that don’t get it.
Expecting PvP updates in any new DLC or Chapter is part off the deal. This game is not exclusively PvE and most of the nerfs and balancing are because of PvP so there is an important portion of the community engaging in it otherwise the Devs wouldn’t even touch anything.
^^Best Post
PvP may be a small segment of game-play hours and let's just suppose the revenue from PvP focused players can barely fund PvP servers/balance coding/testing. Therefore, the quick conclusion would be: don't spend any capital on that customer base.
The error imo many make in this discussion is treating PvP casual, PvP serious, PvE casual, PvE end-game, solo, crafting, housing, questing, rp, etc. as disjoint customer bases.
But what if the revenue per customer is highly correlated with the breath of the customer's game-play among all the options in ESO. Don't know how high, but I would bet it's significant. Those customers are also low risk to invest in, because if the development team screws up a game-mode and (it's not fun for a few patches) their risk one of those customers leaving ESO is lower than a customer that only focuses on one game mode.
Secondly, with the wide breath of interests these players likely development a more complex ESO social network that ties them to the game. Eg if your only end-game PvE or end-game PvP and a particular patch "breaks" it, you and your end-game only network may leave the game quite rapidly.
That said it does seem that many PvP forum posts regard dueling and 1vX balance issues. I would think ZoS focusing on the community and group forms of PvP would yield more value (to player based and, therefore, shareholders). Balancing 1v whatever in a combat system with classes is close to impossible anyway unless the classes become distinct in name only.
That would damage the variety of gameplay not only within PvP but the rest of the game hurting the opportunities to tie customers to the game (through more gameplay options).1 -
xxthir13enxx✭✭✭✭✭
✭In all honesty...
I’d be happy if they Removed their additions to Cyrodiil over the last couple years....
Things I’d like to be modified in addition to removal of added features:
-remove Keep/Castle/Fort wall upgrade animation-Hopefully removing unnessesary Loading Screens
-make towns a limited range Respawn...you gotta be there to spawn there.
Edited by xxthir13enxx on January 17, 2020 3:54PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »Why are people asking this again? This is what ESO is.
Exactly. Some think because there was a CGI video before launch showing Cyrodiill combat the game and that the premier PvE end game content was not released until the next month that ESO was supposed to be PvP focused. Considering the videos released with actual dev game play were PvE related and they showed of PvE systems while discussion aspects of combat it seems to negate the small video they hold onto.
These types of games have done better focusing on PvE because that is where the money is. PvP types of games have beren served better by a different type of design. Just look at what is so popular in PvP. Short termed instance combat where character build is simplified by not having any. BR types of games are pretty simple all around and that is what is making the big bucks for PvP. Outside of that it is survival type of games. Those are the two areas where serious PvP players will be found.1 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Both sides seems to be full of "know it alls" and are so ceratin in their beleifs even though in most cases they just don't have any information, it's mostly based on opinions and what they think at this very moment.
I don't understand why pve'ers are so against adding more pvp content. Can someone explain why you are so against that ?
It depends on what's meant by "content" most of the time. If it's zones, a lot of PvPers see this as dividing up an already small community (especially during off peak hours) into different zones, which means a harder time trying to find PvP in any given PvP zone.
Other types of content (mechanic changes, Cyrodiil changes, etc) are usually welcomed unless they prove to be poorly thought out, and almost always take a backseat in the minds of PvPers to better performance. None of the bells and whistles matter if the game doesn't play well.1 -
Emmagoldman✭✭✭✭✭
✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »Why are people asking this again? This is what ESO is.
Exactly. Some think because there was a CGI video before launch showing Cyrodiill combat the game and that the premier PvE end game content was not released until the next month that ESO was supposed to be PvP focused. Considering the videos released with actual dev game play were PvE related and they showed of PvE systems while discussion aspects of combat it seems to negate the small video they hold onto.
These types of games have done better focusing on PvE because that is where the money is. PvP types of games have beren served better by a different type of design. Just look at what is so popular in PvP. Short termed instance combat where character build is simplified by not having any. BR types of games are pretty simple all around and that is what is making the big bucks for PvP. Outside of that it is survival type of games. Those are the two areas where serious PvP players will be found.
ESO is, whatever they make and design ESO to be and that is fluid and not static.
C'mon, lets be real, a majority of money being made is through the appeal of eso + and cosmetics. The biggest pull for eso + is bag space. Bag space, yep, bag space, is the appeal. I would argue that cosmetics is much more appealing then, look, a new DLC dungeon, OMG!!!! OMG, a new 12 person trial. YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
They are pulling in money with all that fancy cosmetic reskinned stuff. Everyone likes to look good
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thadjarvis✭✭✭✭Curious_Death wrote: »NO... just did everything that i could...
There's a tiny number of PvE players have done everything in end-game: Godslayer, Unchained, all dungeon one-run Trifecta's.
You can go further: solo most dungeon; duo-ing the others (most HM's too).0 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They have PvP, but it’s pretty bad and lame. This isn’t going to attract new players. It’s like eating something that’s really bad and trying to convince everyone else to try it and see how bad it it. Most are gonna pass up on the offer and with good reason.
PvP has got Cyrodil, The Imperial City, Battlegrounds, and Dueling.
A couple different Campaigns to mess around with. CP or no CP.
There’s even PvP quests to do in battlegrounds, achievements in dueling, daily PvE type quests to do in Cyrodil that many people never even bother to do.
It seems like they keep adding new battlegrounds maps, so they must be somewhat popular. You can buy alchemy satchels in the ic so there’s something cool you can do with the Telstar stones you accumulate.
What else could they add? Most times every form of PvP plays terribly gawdawful bad for me so I couldn’t see them going any further with it. Just taking a resource or fighting mobs with no other actual enemy players around nearly brings my PlayStation to a halt.
In other words, it’s just mostly trash.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Curious_Death wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »Curious_Death wrote: »Because this isn't a PvP focused game and never has been.
no never... the only end game content in EVERY MMO... what u will do when u get tons of gold? tons of best items? u will go and help beginners? u will stay in the middle of craglorn and thinks how good u re? ofc u will make good pvp gear and try urself in fighting with other human being... its the ultimate and non-predictible content of EVERY game!
Everything in ESO is endgame. Ive been playing 3-4 years and i still have A LOT to do. I havent completed a third of the game on my oldest character who has just over 1600 hours of play and is the furthest along. If you think PVP is the only endgame content, it is because you want it to be YOUR only end game content.
NO... just did everything that i could... got all perfected gear... and tell me that doing quests is challenging as 810 cp gold geared player... ehh... we want challenges... and theres nothing more challenging than PVP coz players re not so predictible as monsters in pve.
Did you get all the collection achievements? I'm guessing you did everything you wanted to do in PvE and not everything you could do. That is fine though. For some end game is PvP. For others end game is consistently appearing on leader boards and still others have no end game they just enjoy playing.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »
Again that doesn't change facts. It says you live in an echo chamber and think the handful of people you play with is a significant statistical element.nafensoriel wrote: »
Congratulations you are a rare outlier?
Statistics still don't favor PVPers are money spenders in PVE oriented games.
Every single person in my pvp guild also does pve, housing, and buys crown crates and cosmetics, as well as subs. So again, try again. People that do more than one thing are the majority in this game, not people who hyper focus one single thing.
I'm a PVPer as well. I also post on the forums. That makes me extremely rare statistically. The entire forum could agree on something(HA!!) and we would STILL be statistically tiny.
The average player doesn't go to the forums. Doesn't give a crap about grouping. It is just a 9-5 mom or dad logging on to have fun.
Hell if you want a reality check the people who buy HOUSING are the guys and gals who spend the most. It is the single best reason to make housing. It is a huge monetization sink.
Even the rp and housing streamers I watch do more than one thing, people that do multiple forms of play are the majority, not people who do a single thing.0 -
TheFM✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »nafensoriel wrote: »
Congratulations you are a rare outlier?
Statistics still don't favor PVPers are money spenders in PVE oriented games.
No he is not, have 4 ESO plus accounts and players in the household who have spent embarrassingly large amounts of money in the Crown store going on for almost 6 years now.
We all PvP. Please don't make up facts.
Edit - In addition I bet PvP has sold more riding lessons than PvE. lol
She, but yeah, it blows my mind how people think variety is a bad thing here.0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »Curious_Death wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »Curious_Death wrote: »Because this isn't a PvP focused game and never has been.
no never... the only end game content in EVERY MMO... what u will do when u get tons of gold? tons of best items? u will go and help beginners? u will stay in the middle of craglorn and thinks how good u re? ofc u will make good pvp gear and try urself in fighting with other human being... its the ultimate and non-predictible content of EVERY game!
Everything in ESO is endgame. Ive been playing 3-4 years and i still have A LOT to do. I havent completed a third of the game on my oldest character who has just over 1600 hours of play and is the furthest along. If you think PVP is the only endgame content, it is because you want it to be YOUR only end game content.
NO... just did everything that i could... got all perfected gear... and tell me that doing quests is challenging as 810 cp gold geared player... ehh... we want challenges... and theres nothing more challenging than PVP coz players re not so predictible as monsters in pve.
Not everyone wants to be challenged all the time. I run a small company in the day time. My wife creates training programs for a global fortune 100 company. We are challenged for 8,10,12 plus hours a day. We sometimes dont have the mental capacity when we play to place furniture in a house or to do crafting writs. We dont want constantly be challenged because not everything in life needs to be and uphill battle.
Also, and this is not meant towards you , many people who complain about endgame being to easy or trials and vet dungeons needing to be more challenging make me laugh. These same people run this content with "pro" groups who have players that invest a lot of time or effort into playing and some of which are perfectionist and who play together.
These little cliques are like pro sports players VS local/junior/college leagues and then complain because the other team is not challenging enough. Ill use Alcast as an example, though from what i can tell he is nothing like this just need to borrow his fame and abilities. This would be like Alcast and his trial group, Hodor, complaining about how easy content is when they are the pinnacle of a trial group. Alcast, on the other hand uses his talents and love of the game to create all sorts of builds and help many players find a direction to go with their characters and step to get to an end result they want.
If the game isnt hard enough for someone then they need to consider making it more challenging for themselves instead of demanding that ZOS make it more challenging for everyone. One way these "pro" players could do this is stop running content with other "pro"players. What is the fun in doing content with a bunch of clones? You want a real challenge try running content with us filthy casuals. Dont drop out, kick us, or throw a tantrum because we are doing 5 billion dps on the first boss or because we didnt watch 8 hrs of videos, or spend 2 hours a night practicing a rotation or other ridiculous nonsense.
I see that a lot in this game. Elite players that whine about how easy the game is but as soon as you take away all their expert end game content friends and replace them with average players they are like " OMG this is so hard! i dont have time to actually do the mechanics! People need to learn how to play because i am tired of carrying them. If they arent going to learn how to do a rotation and do at least 35k dps, im going to kick them because ive ran this instance like 500 times and i dont want to spend any more than 15 minutes in it!"
That is what makes me laugh, because these same people complain how the game is easy...but its like they only want to play it on godmode and as soon as you present them with the challenge of playing with the average player they are like " Well you need to go watch videos and do research and practice and come back when you can do X,Y, and Z !"
So they dont actually want harder content. They want more content they can run with god mode on and then pat themselves on the back with how good they are at this game. You want a challenge run content with average players and dont berate them, belittle them, try to force them to improve, kick them, or leave group. Play with them, drop them a hint or two in the run. Something they can take away from it. Have a conversation with them. Make a friend. Be a mentor. Socialize.
My wife actually teaches this... Not everyone learns the same way. My wife is hands on with a little bit of visual. I am more hands on than visual but more visual than she is. Her imagination is crap. She needs to see things physically. I can imagine them. Some people audio. Some people learn better with videos and some with reading and some with doing.
Some people dont want to turn it their game into a college course. Some have very boring jobs or no jobs and want something to give them a challenge. Run some average players through end game content, help them out. You will find it far more rewarding and challenging doing that content with a group of mediocre players than you will a bunch of pro content runners.
I don't really disagree, except the 8 hours of videos is a bit excessive
Not all of the cliques form in a vacuum. Some preserve the integrity of their groups for the exact reasons you're stating. I play with a group comprised of Drs, executives, teachers, military, retirees (they tell me that's stressful as well). Its not always that people avoid lesser skilled players, they just want to play with friends. If we mess up it's not the end of the world. We still want a challenge.
Playing with people who aren't up to the same standards is fine, in fact I do quite often. Sometimes they're more skilled. That's not really a universal solution to challenging content though. If your reason for avoiding that content is because of mental fatigue, the reason some avoid PUGs is the same.
I'm envious of those who have played this game for any length of time and find overland fulfilling. I'd go father and say I'm envious of those who aren't bored to tears with it. I've done Caldwells silver and gold, all the skyshards, all the delves, public dungeons, arenas, outside of southern elsweyr and I struggle to do southern elsweyr (also read I've yet to step foot in there) Asking them to change overland to make it challenging for me wouldn't be great for newer players. So the only reasonable solution, if they want to retain players like that, would be to keep adding challenging content.
That's not to say that I'm unhappy with the prospect of improved performance in Cyrodiil being a priority.
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nafensoriel✭✭✭✭✭
-Are you posting in the forums? CHECK!TequilaFire wrote: »nafensoriel wrote: »
Congratulations you are a rare outlier?
Statistics still don't favor PVPers are money spenders in PVE oriented games.
No he is not, have 4 ESO plus accounts and players in the household who have spent embarrassingly large amounts of money in the Crown store going on for almost 6 years now.
We all PvP. Please don't make up facts.
Edit - In addition I bet PvP has sold more riding lessons than PvE. lol
-Do you PVP?(Requires definition: A PVPer is someone who participates in PVP. A person who joins a battleground in PvE gear to unlock vigor or occasionally "try it out" is arguably not a PVPer as they do not actively seek the content. Just a definition here for a common ground of understanding). CHECK!
Congratulations!
You now account for less than 5% of the player base. It's not a made-up statistic. Forums generally account for LESS THAN 5% OF A PLAYER BASE(indy games skew this.. but eso isn't indy!)
The "but my family friends do it!" argument is a fallacy! It's called an ECHO CHAMBER where the only people you hear say what you want to hear. It does not represent a majority or even statistical significance. Due to the size of the forums, every single member here could agree on something and we would STILL BE MINORITY.
I don't care one way or the other on the PVP issue. I still find plenty to do in PVP after all this time myself and don't need a fancy toy or gimmick every week. Heck, the addition of gates and bridges changed play pretty significantly itself. Just please understand when you actually speak for a majority and when you most absolutely do not.
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xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
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1. Players think they never add anything for PvP, but forget about artifacts, set changes, set additions, small tweaks added for varying rewards, campaign rules revamps, and battlegrounds. So it's usually more about some specific idea that players want and didn't get.
2. IMO pvp is meant to be somewhat static as far as content goes because it's about fighting other players and not about "doing content". Outside of adding new maps for stuff like BGs, you don't want cyrodiil's pop being more broken up. And I say static not as an insult, but as a feature oddly enough. When I finish with PvE zones or have done the dungeons, I have nothing to do in the game except maybe constantly repeating the same handful of dungeons. But when I go into PvP (if it works well) I always get pvp experiences that are slightly different every time (they are despite smart comments lol - trust me, much more different no matter how alike it feels vs doing the same dungeon pledge for the hundredth time).
3. The best thing they can do for PvP is what they are doing right now with the backend to make the game less laggy and more stable. Hopefully it works.
-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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Yes, outside of performance improvement any new features like artifacts and combat changes will divide the PvP community.Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Probably because the PvP community would just scream at ZOS to nerf what they do give them so why bother?
It’s true. Though I blame some of the PVP decline on some players. Granted, servers in Cp are terrible and that’s most of it.
The drama, broken exploit builds and abhorrent, childish behavior is a huge turn off for new blood coming in.
For PvE its much simpler, buffs are good, nerfs is bad, more content is good you complain that its a bit weak however and someone will always complain about something.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
thadjarvis✭✭✭✭@Anotherone773
I agree as well. However, I've found there are valid pragmatic reasons some of the perceived elitism exists (not including just mean "toxic" attitudes)
Being member and leader of progressions (12 or 4 player), it can become tiresome for some to spend days wiping rather than then going back later taking through friends of lower capability. It's easier to essentially carry others once there is a majority in the group that know it really well. Likely less frustrating hours and more fun hours using the second method.
Similarly suppose there are two really low damage dealers in a similar example to of a 10 hour progression, and that if their damage was up to the average of the others it would avoid some exponentially difficult mechanics layering without which the clear would happen in 6 hours. It can be draining on a 12 person group wiping dozens of times in a row (it can be tough for leader to keep spirits up); those few extra hours (sessions) are likely the most stressful. In that example, the 2 players lengthen the progression for others by (10 others players) * (10 - 6 hours) = 40 hours.
It's not unreasonable for the other 10 to want the other 2 to spend a few hours (say 5 each, 10 total) to save everyone 48 hours of wiping, all the while enthusiastically encouraging and helping them. I get that and have to be careful as a raid lead of setting a fair bar while offering tons of my time helping and encouraging (which is fun too). If it's DPS I'll help there. If it's gear, I'll help farm. If it's mechanics we'll take smaller groups into dungeons or watch their live vMA runs helping them along. Furthermore, the group would be better prepared to go after something more challenging because at some point the group will hit a difficulty wall if everyone doesn't incrementally improve.
It is fun for me to teach others content. One of my most fun runs the past few months was taking two husbands and wives (one husband was watching wife at home and on VC) through vSCP. It was a blast. However, I have a second life desire to be a teacher. Many people aren't into that sort of thing.
For many being in a group in which they are not contributing much doesn't make them feel great at all. It makes sense that those folks might not understand why others wouldn't want to contribute close to the average or at not a lower end outlier in the group. Consider the 2 low DDs above. We've all been there. Some choose to learn, some leave the group, and others want to stay and not improve. Their peers almost always want to help their peers with option 1. They understand 2. I understand that many may get frustrated if option 3 is chosen (it also puts leaders in an uncomfortable position no matter what they do).
I've found that the most exciting clears of any instance for all in the group occurs when everyone in it is of similar level.
That may just be all about longer progressions. But a PUG can essentially turn into one with similar dynamics occurring on a smaller scale. In that case I often offer to help explain or scale down difficulty if tensions rise or progress haults.0 -
svartorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't think anyone at ZOS even plays PVP so they don't even know how much love it needs.1 -
Casdha✭✭✭✭✭
✭They roped themselves into a corner. To have new PvP content, the current war would have to end and new battle lines drawn over a new piece of land.Proud member of the Psijic Order - The first wave - The 0.016%0 -
Vorpan✭✭✭I PVP and honestly would prefer performance issues being resolved than getting new PVP content.
But honestly, what should they add? IC is mostly empty. Two of the three campaigns are low pop (I'm not counting pre-50, although that is low pop as well, and am only speaking of PC-NA). They added Volendrung and AD has done nothing but complain about it either DC or EP use, and should they get it themselves they hide with it or toss it in the water. And you can only add so many battleground maps before it gets boring.
I'd love to see more PVP events, maybe see the map of Cyrodiil grow, but it doesn't feel worth it until the issues with lag, and all the problems that come with it, are fixed.0 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Agenericname
Im not against harder overland or otherwise for those who want to keep raising that bar. But the people that often complain about how things are not challenging enough are the ones who run around in trial gear buffed to the teeth with rotations they spent hours perfecting. They often play 1 or a few characters because playing any more than 1-4 or so makes it hard for them to remember the most efficient way to play that character. They WONT run with anyone below a certain high standard because it might take them 5 minutes longer,they might have to do a bit more work, or...or they could die!That's not really a universal solution to challenging content though. If your reason for avoiding that content is because of mental fatigue, the reason some avoid PUGs is the same.
This game is known for its story line and while you and me may enjoy doing a little work to progress, many players dont want to struggle to work through the storyline. It does ruin the story and its bad enough that you have to deal with impatient people when trying to read or listen to a dungeon story the first time. My wife is one of these people. If you put that story behind a bunch of fighting and you have to "git gud" just to play through the quests, she loses interest in the stories.
That said about a year ago i made a suggestion on these very forums about having a "Vet Mode" mirror of the game world. Basically overland and normal dungeons would be like current vet dungeons. While Vet dungeons would be much harder than they are now. Something similar would happen with trials. And a third mode of dungeons and trials would be added, Elite mode that is even more challenging. You could go between this version and the normal version, once you met the requirements using certain portals around Tamriel.
This was met with whining and crying here on the forums about how it would divide the population, the same argument made when Aussies ask for a server in the oceanic region. But dividing the population would put it at what early 2017 levels? maybe later? And the population wouldnt be not present, just in another part of the game. The way i had described it the vet realm would be like a shadow realm It could even have a whole new story line and quests.
I play the content i feel up to mentally. I imagine most people play this way. And i am quite fine with those "elite" players avoiding PUGS. My beef is that they have the audacity to think they have the right to dictate how EVERYONE ELSE plays the game. OR that they want the entire game to change to suit their playstyle rather than changing their playstyle to suit the game.If your reason for avoiding that content is because of mental fatigue, the reason some avoid PUGs is the same.
This is like with hole group finder for trials. ITs a great thing for raid type content. It allows people who normally cant get in such content or dont have the schedule to join more formal groups or who play more sporadically to do end game content. When you mention this as a compromise here on the forums, you would think you told some of these players that run trials that they had to give up a kidney when it actually doesnt affect their gameplay at all but improves it for many others.
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TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »
-Are you posting in the forums? CHECK!TequilaFire wrote: »nafensoriel wrote: »
Congratulations you are a rare outlier?
Statistics still don't favor PVPers are money spenders in PVE oriented games.
No he is not, have 4 ESO plus accounts and players in the household who have spent embarrassingly large amounts of money in the Crown store going on for almost 6 years now.
We all PvP. Please don't make up facts.
Edit - In addition I bet PvP has sold more riding lessons than PvE. lol
-Do you PVP?(Requires definition: A PVPer is someone who participates in PVP. A person who joins a battleground in PvE gear to unlock vigor or occasionally "try it out" is arguably not a PVPer as they do not actively seek the content. Just a definition here for a common ground of understanding). CHECK!
Congratulations!
You now account for less than 5% of the player base. It's not a made-up statistic. Forums generally account for LESS THAN 5% OF A PLAYER BASE(indy games skew this.. but eso isn't indy!)
The "but my family friends do it!" argument is a fallacy! It's called an ECHO CHAMBER where the only people you hear say what you want to hear. It does not represent a majority or even statistical significance. Due to the size of the forums, every single member here could agree on something and we would STILL BE MINORITY.
I don't care one way or the other on the PVP issue. I still find plenty to do in PVP after all this time myself and don't need a fancy toy or gimmick every week. Heck, the addition of gates and bridges changed play pretty significantly itself. Just please understand when you actually speak for a majority and when you most absolutely do not.
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What the hell did that have to do with anything I said?
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nafensoriel✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »nafensoriel wrote: »
-Are you posting in the forums? CHECK!TequilaFire wrote: »nafensoriel wrote: »
Congratulations you are a rare outlier?
Statistics still don't favor PVPers are money spenders in PVE oriented games.
No he is not, have 4 ESO plus accounts and players in the household who have spent embarrassingly large amounts of money in the Crown store going on for almost 6 years now.
We all PvP. Please don't make up facts.
Edit - In addition I bet PvP has sold more riding lessons than PvE. lol
-Do you PVP?(Requires definition: A PVPer is someone who participates in PVP. A person who joins a battleground in PvE gear to unlock vigor or occasionally "try it out" is arguably not a PVPer as they do not actively seek the content. Just a definition here for a common ground of understanding). CHECK!
Congratulations!
You now account for less than 5% of the player base. It's not a made-up statistic. Forums generally account for LESS THAN 5% OF A PLAYER BASE(indy games skew this.. but eso isn't indy!)
The "but my family friends do it!" argument is a fallacy! It's called an ECHO CHAMBER where the only people you hear say what you want to hear. It does not represent a majority or even statistical significance. Due to the size of the forums, every single member here could agree on something and we would STILL BE MINORITY.
I don't care one way or the other on the PVP issue. I still find plenty to do in PVP after all this time myself and don't need a fancy toy or gimmick every week. Heck, the addition of gates and bridges changed play pretty significantly itself. Just please understand when you actually speak for a majority and when you most absolutely do not.
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What the hell did that have to do with anything I said?
You seem to think your 4 accounts as statistically significant. My original point was that people in this thread screaming "hey I spend money and I PVP" are an extreme minority. It doesn't change the truth that PVE players(especially housing) pay considerably more into ZOS's bottom line than any amount of PVPers ever will.
If you don't like the fact that you are a rare outlier then I'm sorry but it doesn't change anything.
We do get PVP improvements regularly. We do not get them in the same volume as PVE because we frankly are not the primary focus of the game.0
This discussion has been closed.