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relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This game is completely playable and incredibly enjoyable without learning it.
If you want to be competitive you have to learn it.
I started playing a year a go and learnt it within my first 4 months of playing.
I was enjoying it equally before I learnt and never felt it was unfair that I had to learn it.
I don't understand why a minority of people hate it so much, just learn it or don't...
If you think about it as a whole you can see how essential it is.
It activates your weapon glyph, sets like spell strategist were designed around it.
In PvP animation cancelling and weaving becomes reactive. You have to line up when your glyph is active with other procs etc... and if it all goes to *** then you need to be able to block, dodge, swap bars etc...
Have you ever blocked whilst healing, buffing? If you want animation cancelling that would have to go with it.
Combat in this game(when it works) is incredible!
If you have played games like WOW you know that every skill you fire is completely RNG whether hits, misses, crits, is blocked is dodged. We do still have crit chance in this game, but other than that lining up damage and mitigating is completely down to the player.
ESO went a completely different route and put combat entirely in our hands. There is a high skill cap to compete with a large portion of seasoned players. This fills the void of the constant gear grind that is present in most other MMO's, ESO rewards experience rather than time and that is bloody innovation!
If you aren't willing to learn it this game is completely accessible and enjoyable without it. If you want to compete learn it or play another MMO. There are a lot of good ones where this is not a mechanic.4 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ZarkingFrued wrote: »Just stop. This horse has been beaten to death for years. Give it a rest. It's a core game mechanic.
No, it was a mistake they chose to "embrace".
So ? You do realise that is no argument at all ? Or do You want also combos to be removed from all currently existing fighting games because combos were initially also a mistake devs choose to "embrace" ? Come on pick up any fighting game forums go there and say that devs should remove combos from their title because they're "embracing a mistake".
It wasn't an argument, it was a correction.
I can't be bothered to argue, except to agree with the poster above, who said that more people leave this game, out of disappointment over stuff like this, than otherwise would do.
Therefore, asking the relatively few people who remain - especially on forums, which are notorious for not being representative of the true playerbase/prospective playerbase - will always tend to reflect a minority view.
ESO's average population is the highest it has ever been. That is why server performance is so much more apparent that it ever has been. When people talk about the effect on the population or why people leave I find it is often formed from their own experiences and opinions rather than any statistical bases.2 -
GenjiraX✭✭✭✭✭Gods, no. Combat would lose all its fluidity, appeal and joy if animation cancelling was removed. Load screens (and, I think, the level 41 hint) tell you to do it so, despite being unintended, it’s absolutely a key part of combat.3
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Anhedonie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ESO's combat isn't very complex already, removing animation cancelling will make it even simpler. Not like devs can do it anyway.Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.2 -
BeamsForDemacia✭✭✭yeah pls remove la´s from the game, seems like a cheat mechanicIR/GH/TTT/GS [MEDUSA]3
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZarkingFrued wrote: »Just stop. This horse has been beaten to death for years. Give it a rest. It's a core game mechanic.
No, it was a mistake they chose to "embrace".
So ? You do realise that is no argument at all ? Or do You want also combos to be removed from all currently existing fighting games because combos were initially also a mistake devs choose to "embrace" ? Come on pick up any fighting game forums go there and say that devs should remove combos from their title because they're "embracing a mistake".
It wasn't an argument, it was a correction.
I can't be bothered to argue, except to agree with the poster above, who said that more people leave this game, out of disappointment over stuff like this, than otherwise would do.
Therefore, asking the relatively few people who remain - especially on forums, which are notorious for not being representative of the true playerbase/prospective playerbase - will always tend to reflect a minority view.
Well then it was weak correction because light attack weaving is both , a core game mechanic and initially unintended feature.
As for agreeing with OP well You can agree with whatever You want. Untill there is no reliable data supporting it then it's just subjective opinion that holds no meaning.
And any data possible to get actually suggest ESO is growing so accusation that light attack weaving or animation cancelling is dooming the came is a lie.Edited by Juhasow on January 16, 2020 11:15AM2 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
and that there NEED to be cast times/GCD (genuine immutable GCD, that exists no matter what). yes, its possible to have action priority where you either finish a cast or you block and the cast is canceled. it literally works that way in numerous other MMO's.Contaminate wrote: »Contaminate wrote: »1) No
2) No one would enjoy it if it was removed no matter how much they say they would
I would LOVE it if WEAVING as it is right now was removed. not being able to cancel animations (as in skills) in order to dodge/block/etc? not so much. but basically if you cancel animations? IMO - it should cancel damage of that attack as incomplete.
Except that’s not possible to do. You either have action priority or you don’t. Either you’re allowed to cast your heal then block or you’re not. Either you’re allowed to cast a buff while blocking or you’re not.
The real solution to the “problem” of animation canceling, is trimming animations so they always fit within the GCD.
Light weaving shouldn’t deal nearly 20% of someone’s total dps, but it shouldn’t be removed, just revert the Summerset LA buffs that took the damage out of control and buff ability base damages.
ESO works on an instant cast system, meaning ALL animations except those attached to cast times are completely superfluous. They always have been, and no one wants more cast times in this game to slow down combat, which they would. The ones haphazardly placed on ults were a poor enough decision, nothing else needs a similar treatment.
We have action priority and immutable GCDs for all skills.
There is ~1 second GCD tied to each skill that is required to pass for the skill to fire. This is a known fact. Basic attacks are not skills and are not tied to a GCD but then again their damage is tied to how long they are charged so a GCD is not needed.
Glad I could clear that up.
Just a small correction , light attacks also have their own global cooldown of ~0,7 sec. So there is global cooldown for both light attack and skils.4 -
Rukia541✭✭✭✭✭And what then would be the point of having a light attack? And what are you going to replace weaving with to keep combat not-so-braindead (that's a good character name now that I think about it LOL)0
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Freakin_Hytte✭✭✭✭✭ZarkingFrued wrote: »Just stop. This horse has been beaten to death for years. Give it a rest. It's a core game mechanic.
No, it was a mistake they chose to "embrace".
Yes it is a core mechanics. There are numerous skills, sets and even poisons procc on light attacks. It started out as a mistake, but they have developed it into a core mechanic over the years. LA weaving will never be removed because there is to much work put into it.Edited by Freakin_Hytte on January 16, 2020 11:29AM0 -
Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Servers of ESO can't handle animation cancel and it's cheating. ESO is lag so hard even in PvE.
If ZOS doesn't remove it, ESO is doomed. Because we don't use macro, we can't play this game.
Servers cant handle amount of people that joined the game last year.
Animation cancelling is not a cheating sice developer openly allowed for it plus called it a feature and it's up to developer what is and isn't cheating.
Servers have issues with performance also because there are moments when there is more people playing then game can handle which actually doesnt seem like a doomed title.
You dont need to use macro to animation cancel or light attack weave , macro brings no benefits over doing it manually while manual clicking gives more flexibility and responsivness. There are global cooldowns in the game which macro wont bypass so manual clicking is perfectly safe. All You need is to learn it which is the core issue here I think because it's too much to expect 2 repeatable clicks per second from people right ?
Also in PvE You dont have to use perfect light attack weaving or animation cancelling. You can pull more DPS then it's required to clear every veteran content by putting a brick on Your LMB.Edited by Juhasow on January 16, 2020 11:29AM4 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, removing these would be make a rotation boring, and mind you, this comes from someone playing on a constant high ping, that can't reap the full benefits of either. I like that there's an element making combat challenging, requiring skill, and it's something to work on and improve.1 -
Jayroo✭✭✭✭I never realized this was a topic people have fought over before over the years. Nonetheless my opinion remains, I think having a large portion of your dps come from a finicky mechanic a lot of people have trouble doing causes toxicity among DPS.
I get it, it adds challenge whatever. Why not aim higher though? Why cant one of these combat improvement updates make combat challenging in ways that doesn't involve "REQUIRED accidental gameplay mechanics"
**"well I have trouble consistently weaving because of my ping and I get kicked out of vet dungeons and trials due to my inability to weave, I guess I'll be something brainless like a stamplar and trash all my other dps"**
"dont worry templar will be fixed around an accidental mechanic zos themselves confirms NOR denies is a problem"
a lot of magicka classes HEAVILY depend on weaving for a decent dps. While stamplars are out spamming one skill and more times than not doing double the dps the magicka class does who weaves through six different buff skills just to achieve a sub par dps rangeEdited by Jayroo on January 16, 2020 11:46AM1 -
BeamsForDemacia✭✭✭Always These macros xD, basically no pve Player uses any and the macros i know have Nothing to do with combat/ur Rotation, la weaving is not difficult to learn, and i dunno what ppl Always mean with Animation cancelling, apart from weapon swap u dont cancel anythingIR/GH/TTT/GS [MEDUSA]1
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relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I never realized this was a topic people have fought over before over the years. Nonetheless my opinion remains, I think having a large portion of your dps come from a finicky mechanic a lot of people have trouble doing causes toxicity among DPS
**"well I have trouble consistently weaving because of my ping and I get kicked out of vet dungeons and trials due to my inability to weave, I guess I'll be something brainless like a stamplar"**
Also a lot of magicka classes HEAVILY depend on weaving for a decent dps. While stamplars are out spamming one skill and more times than not doing double the dps the magicka class does who weaves through six different buff skills just to achieve a sub par dps range
Do you use glyphs/poisons? how are you activating them? Stam classes weave too
everyone that plays this game even remotely competitively light attacks before a skill... Honestly learn it, there are lots of videos teaching it and when you do you'll wonder what everyone fusses about. 0 -
Jayroo✭✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »I never realized this was a topic people have fought over before over the years. Nonetheless my opinion remains, I think having a large portion of your dps come from a finicky mechanic a lot of people have trouble doing causes toxicity among DPS
**"well I have trouble consistently weaving because of my ping and I get kicked out of vet dungeons and trials due to my inability to weave, I guess I'll be something brainless like a stamplar"**
Also a lot of magicka classes HEAVILY depend on weaving for a decent dps. While stamplars are out spamming one skill and more times than not doing double the dps the magicka class does who weaves through six different buff skills just to achieve a sub par dps range
Do you use glyphs/poisons? how are you activating them? Stam classes weave too everyone that plays this game even remotely competitively light attacks before a skill... Honestly learn it, there are lots of videos teaching it and when you do you'll wonder what everyone fusses about.
weaving with one skill over and over is significantly easier in my experience at least.
Also, I know how to do it, I just can't due to troubles I have with RA in my hands.
Edited by Jayroo on January 16, 2020 11:54AM0 -
EIGHTS✭✭✭✭
No. It lags server many years not just last year. It's so unfair that people can do more than 20 skills in 1 seconds. It happens too quick even they can't be recorded in log.
There are too many examples.
I think there are many people use macro in PvE too. That's why ESO lags in PvE just like in Cyrodiil. This is a big problem that ZOS should deal with.
Edited by EIGHTS on January 16, 2020 11:55AMI'm not native speaker in English. I hope that I don't make you misunderstand.2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
No. It lags server many years not just last year. It's so unfair that people can do more than 20 skills in 1 seconds. It happens too quick even they can't be recorded in log.
There are too many examples.
I think there are many people use macro in PvE too. That's why ESO lags in PvE just like in Cyrodiil. This is a big problem that ZOS should deal with.
What are you talking about? 5 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »I never realized this was a topic people have fought over before over the years. Nonetheless my opinion remains, I think having a large portion of your dps come from a finicky mechanic a lot of people have trouble doing causes toxicity among DPS
**"well I have trouble consistently weaving because of my ping and I get kicked out of vet dungeons and trials due to my inability to weave, I guess I'll be something brainless like a stamplar"**
Also a lot of magicka classes HEAVILY depend on weaving for a decent dps. While stamplars are out spamming one skill and more times than not doing double the dps the magicka class does who weaves through six different buff skills just to achieve a sub par dps range
Do you use glyphs/poisons? how are you activating them? Stam classes weave too everyone that plays this game even remotely competitively light attacks before a skill... Honestly learn it, there are lots of videos teaching it and when you do you'll wonder what everyone fusses about.
weaving with one skill over and over is significantly easier in my experience at least.
Also, I know how to do it, I just can't due to troubles I have with RA in my hands.
I'm sorry to hear that, have you tried a different control set up? are you on key board and mouse?0 -
gatekeeper13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes. In my opinion, cancelling the animation of an ability is a flaw in the combat design and should be fixed. In return, they should buff the abilities.2 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Remove animation cancelling, and I can guarantee that you'll immediately want it back again.
Combat relies on animation cancelling to allow you to react to incoming attacks in a timely and reliable manner, remove animation cancelling, and I can guarantee you'll immediately start dying to *** you never struggled against, because you can't block, dodge or interrupt attacks you used to be able to.
That's the entire reason it's a thing in the first place. It didn't just magically appear, Zenimax intentionally implemented it to allow players to do the above, to allow players to not die to *** they can't react to in a timely and reliable manner. It was absolutely intended, was was unintended/unanticipated was players learning how the priority system works and exploiting it to maximise damage. But they can't fix that without trashing everything else, so they just said *** it and embraced it.
If you want proof of this, look at Path of Exile. It features a similar action-styled combat system where you react to incoming attacks by actively moving out of the way or bracing for impact, but it didn't have a priority system, which meant that if you were in the middle of an animation, you're locked in that animation until it ends.
The result? Melee playstyles were unplayable unless you built almost completely into attack speed to get through the animation as fast as possible, and even then you had to be on top of things due to the meta causing your skill casts to be super janky. This effectively killed gear diversity, and provided a solid barrier to entry in terms of how expensive it was to gear up a melee character.
In response to that, GGG retroactively implemented animation cancelling into PoE's existing combat system, allowing movement skills (and the new dodge skills) to cancel other skills. Obviously it had its initial issues, but once they were ironed out, melee playstyles were hugely upgraded in terms of not only how playable they were, but also in terms of gear diversity and cost of gearing up your character. Almost overnight, something that was unplayable without playing meta builds, became playable, and slower builds started becoming viable.
Take animation cancelling out of ESO, and it would be in the same spot Path of Exile was prior to its introduction of animation cancelling. Except, since we don't have an attack speed stat to build into, we're going to have to slow way down to make 100% sure that it's safe to cast a skill with a janky animation (a lot of skills), which will kill the game for so many players.
People would adapt as they always do, and those that would leave would get replaced by others, likely returning players.
Zenimax never intentionally implemented it. It was an unexpected bug that they just decided to leave in.
More precise timing and higher risk if not executed well promotes a much more skilled gameplay than we have now where you're basically free to do anything altogether. It is also much more player-friendly than the current "system".
Path of Exile is a completely different kind of gameplay design. Idk why would you even want to compare PoE with ESO. ._.
Not to mention that I'm willing to bet that animation cancelling is one of the major culprits in terms of server performance decrease, desyncs, response glitches etc. since you have people basically performing way too many combined tasks at a fraction of a second with the occasional GCD here and there.
I'd actually love to see what would really happen if they scrapped the animation cancelling... And how many of us "good" players would suddenly find themselves among the average players. I think this is the greatest reason why most people don't want it gone. Cause it allows them to "Be better" than the average player and only the mere thought of losing that position creates anxiety and damaged ego.
I have yet to meet anyone who genuinely enjoys this unless they're in a top-rank-chasing guild. I have yet to enjoy it myself and I do it from muscle memory. Because I had no other choice.Edited by Nyladreas on January 16, 2020 12:17PM0 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Contaminate wrote: »1) No
2) No one would enjoy it if it was removed no matter how much they say they would
I only do light attack because i must to have any kind of viable dps, as soon as i go questing i completely stop doing them0 -
AgaTheGreat✭✭✭✭✭
✭People who want them removed are usually scrubs and should l2pPS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat2 -
relentless_turnip✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭gatekeeper13 wrote: »Yes. In my opinion, cancelling the animation of an ability is a flaw in the combat design and should be fixed. In return, they should buff the abilities.
So if someone activates let's say meteor just as you cast a skill. You see it and you want to react, but you are locked into an animation. Would you prefer not to be able to block? all animation cancelling allows is buttons to react the moment you press them. You still can't do more skills because you have cancelled the animation...
I'm not trying to argue I just don't understand why you think this would be better? A lot of animations last the duration of a GCD and will barely be affected by the cancel. What people are asking for when they say they don't like animation cancelling is less responsive combat...
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Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭I like the idea of it, but tbh its always made me feel like the slow kid in class. I’ve been playing since christmas 2016 and I’ve tried real hard, I mean REALLY hard to get the hang of weaving and cancelling, highest parse I even seen on myself was 29k (yes with False God and Mother’s Sorrow Pet sorc). The build isn’t my issue, I can read online guides, watch rotation videos and adapt, etc.
But seeing as my personal skill cap seems to be reached, almost all vet content is out for me, which is discouraging. I mean is weaving and ani cancelling really why there is such a dps disparity?
Just makes me feel like no matter how much I practice, I’ll never catch up to the smart kids. Just my thoughts0 -
CassandraGemini✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well, I can kind of see where you're coming from with the animation cancelling, OP, because it puts people with a high latency or certain disabilities at a disadvantage. Still, if ZOS were to just remove it, that would throw all of us off completely, because I'd guess that most players use it so a certain extent, even if some might not be aware of it. Just imagine being totally used to activating a skill on your back bar (let's say Arrow Barrage) and then switching immediately to the front bar to go on with your rotation. You would completely lose your timing if suddenly you had to wait until all of the animation has played out. So, really, I believe that even the people who are complaining about it now would feel "off", if it were to be removed. And honestly, to be able to perfectly animation cancel all the time is not that much of a deal, except for the top 1% of players.
Light attack weaving on the other hand is pretty crucial, if you want to be competitive, and I absolutely would not want to see it removed (I can't imagine how they would even do that; what would stop us from placing a light attack in between skills?). As others have said, it procs your weapon enchants, which would effectively be rendered useless, if LA weaving were to be removed. Sets also rely on it (like Relequen, for example), as do certain passives like the resource return of Redguards. It would hurt sustain, if we were forced to fire one ability after the other and it would make combat more clunky and generally more... boring I almost want to say.
So no, neither should be removed.
Edited for typo.Edited by CassandraGemini on January 16, 2020 12:24PMThis poor little Bosmer stealth passive had passionate friends and a big loving family!0 -
gatekeeper13✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭relentless_turnip wrote: »gatekeeper13 wrote: »Yes. In my opinion, cancelling the animation of an ability is a flaw in the combat design and should be fixed. In return, they should buff the abilities.
So if someone activates let's say meteor just as you cast a skill. You see it and you want to react, but you are locked into an animation. Would you prefer not to be able to block? all animation cancelling allows is buttons to react the moment you press them. You still can't do more skills because you have cancelled the animation...
I'm not trying to argue I just don't understand why you think this would be better? A lot of animations last the duration of a GCD and will barely be affected by the cancel. What people are asking for when they say they don't like animation cancelling is less responsive combat...
Well, my DD is a magicka Sorcerer that does max damage 50k dps on the Atronach trial dummy. Not saying its much or impressive but without this animation cancelling or weaving, I do about 20-25k dps. Do I still insist on it being removed? Yes. Why? Lets say you are a sorcerer and are casting a spell. How can you do damage to your enemy if the casting of your spell is not complete and interrupted to do a light attack or block? I mean, it makes no logical sense to me. But in the game, the moment you press your button the spell already applied damage or dot, though the casting was never completed. This shouldnt be happening in my opinion. If you want to cancel the animation, cancel the effect of the ability too. That's how I see it. Not trying to push my opinion in anyone's throat, ofc.1 -
BeamsForDemacia✭✭✭@EIGHTS and what exactly are the macros doing pve Players use?IR/GH/TTT/GS [MEDUSA]1
This discussion has been closed.