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BlueRaven

The current combat system (and team) is by far the worst thing about this game, other then it’s major coding flaws.

Juhasow

Jayroo wrote: »

I never realized this was a topic people have fought over before over the years. Nonetheless my opinion remains, I think having a large portion of your dps come from a finicky mechanic a lot of people have trouble doing causes toxicity among DPS

**"well I have trouble consistently weaving because of my ping and I get kicked out of vet dungeons and trials due to my inability to weave, I guess I'll be something brainless like a stamplar"**

You dont need perfect light attack weaving to complete veteran content. You can even complete it by holding 1 button.

Stamplar is actually a class that requires good ping and being perfect at light attack weaving if You want to be able to do 5x jabs+5x light attack inbetween casts of PotL which is the only way to get top numbers.

EIGHTS wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

EIGHTS wrote: »

Servers of ESO can't handle animation cancel and it's cheating. ESO is lag so hard even in PvE.
If ZOS doesn't remove it, ESO is doomed. Because we don't use macro, we can't play this game.

Servers cant handle amount of people that joined the game last year.

No. It lags server many years not just last year. It's so unfair that people can do more than 20 skills in 1 seconds. It happens too quick even they can't be recorded in log.

There are too many examples.

I think there are many people use macro in PvE too. That's why ESO lags in PvE just like in Cyrodiil. This is a big problem that ZOS should deal with.

Real servers performance issues were dooming the PvE mostly during last year. There is no possibility of doing more then 20 skills in 1 second. Log records things accurate to 0,001 sec , 20 attacks in a second happens on average every 0,050 sec so log would have no issues with recording it.

If there is so many examples feel free to name some. It shouldn't be hard if there is so many of them.

What You think doesn't matter. There is no difference for server wheter You animation cancel or not You wont be able to perform more then 1 skill every 0,9 sec.Block cancelling will be improved in update 25. The only big problem ZoS should deal with are people spreading misinformation.

I dont even know are You serious or trolling but in both cases it's pretty lame.

Soundinfinite

Block/Bash animation canceling, I do feel, could be removed from the game. There is no point in having Global Combat Cool Downs (GCD) if there is a way to circumvent it through artificial means. If a player hasn't the need to block or bash, then they shouldn't be rewarded with higher damage output for doing an inane function that serves no purpose in creating damage.

However, with that said, I believe many would be grumbling just as much as now, if not more, when they start finding themselves stuck in cast time animations of an accidental button push, or possibly under a sudden sneak attack in PVP, or an unexpected incoming damage move while tanking a Dungeon Boss, and all that is possible is to stand there unable to do anything about it until the animation ends. Thus, you die...

The game, and the block cancel, was built with these moments in mind. That a portion of the community has found a way to exploit this measure is, well, what it is. Thus, we have skills like Dawnbreaker which now carry a cast time to try and remedy the worst offenders of the exploit. (Yes I am in the camp that Ultimate level damage shouldn't be unforeseeable and without recourse for the target. In PVP, a player should be allowed time to react to such incoming damage.)

Possibly, Update 25 's new back-end Block updated design will be a fix that somehow allows you to still block cancel in these intended situations (Mentioned Above) but at the same time make it no longer advantageous to perform the functions during a DPS rotation. One could hope. But I haven't a clue how to go about designing such a fix. And if its no block cancel at all, then I'm fine with there being people that abuse it. Cause I want to have the functionality in moments when I actually need it during game-play, especially in PVP and Tanking scenarios.

Light Attack weaving, on the other hand, is a whole separate topic, and on that I am a resounding NO to it being removed.

The entire combat system and the pace of battle is built around the intended use of Light Attack Weaving. It serves a function, and it DOES make sense for someone with strong weaving abilities to have greater DPS. Unlike Block/Bash canceling, Light Attacks are there to CREATE MORE DAMAGE, and thus make sense to be integrated into a DPS rotation for best results.

If they simply removed Light Attacks as a damage function many aspects of the games design would suddenly become moot.

The Champion System (The Atronach's Physical Weapon/ Staff EXPERT as well as its CP Passives Retaliation and Butcher)

Empower (From Mage's Guild Passive to Specific Skill Morph's like Empowering Sweep/Wrecking Blow/Bound Armaments for example)

Sets (Elegant, Mela Kena, MAELSTROM STAVES just to name the tip of the iceberg here)

Ultimate Generation (You must light and heavy attack in combat to generate Ultimate naturally)

Game Difficulty Overall (If you think DLC Vet Dungeons and Trials-let alone Vet Hard Mode-are difficult now, just imagine how much more challenging they will become when you suddenly subtract that massive amount of damage light attacks add. You thought the 30-40% DPS drop in the Nerfs from Update 24 were bad, they will be nothing compared to this.)

Sustain (Light attacks are free, FREE, damage. All other damage costs resources. Why would you want to get rid of what is free? If you think sustain is a fight now, picture the Massive Amounts of Health you have to burn through now without any damage output that is free)

I'm sure I'm still forgetting aspects of the Light Attack weave in game-play. These are just off-the-top-of-my-head. It is so baked into the combat design that removing it would force ESO to completely redesign from the ground up. Which isn't feasible, and will change the core ideology of the combat system. Let alone alienate a decent amount of the player base who have come to master the said design. The game would feel like a different game.

And if a response to this is, they don't have to remove light attacks, just the weaving aspect, I ask, if you don't weave light attacks, what is the point of using them, and WHEN would you use them? When you are completely out of resources, so you are feebly standing there light attacking so you have something to do? That still supports all the above problems just mentioned, and I doubt anyone would have much fun doing that.

Light Attacks, need to stay as is.

Royaji

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Yes. In my opinion, cancelling the animation of an ability is a flaw in the combat design and should be fixed. In return, they should buff the abilities.

So if someone activates let's say meteor just as you cast a skill. You see it and you want to react, but you are locked into an animation. Would you prefer not to be able to block? all animation cancelling allows is buttons to react the moment you press them. You still can't do more skills because you have cancelled the animation...

I'm not trying to argue I just don't understand why you think this would be better? A lot of animations last the duration of a GCD and will barely be affected by the cancel. What people are asking for when they say they don't like animation cancelling is less responsive combat...

Well, my DD is a magicka Sorcerer that does max damage 50k dps on the Atronach trial dummy. Not saying its much or impressive but without this animation cancelling or weaving, I do about 20-25k dps. Do I still insist on it being removed? Yes. Why? Lets say you are a sorcerer and are casting a spell. How can you do damage to your enemy if the casting of your spell is not complete and interrupted to do a light attack or block? I mean, it makes no logical sense to me. But in the game, the moment you press your button the spell already applied damage or dot, though the casting was never completed. This shouldnt be happening in my opinion. If you want to cancel the animation, cancel the effect of the ability too. That's how I see it. Not trying to push my opinion in anyone's throat, ofc.

Your problem is not with weaving or cancelling. It's all about majority of skills in ESO being instant cast. They don't have a cast time by design. If you try to cancel Crystal Blast (or any skill with a cast time) before cast time is completed the skill will be cancelled. But this does not happen with instant cast skills because they are just that, instant.

So what you are essentially proposing is adding a cast time to every skill in the game. You know what is the general consensus on cast time skills? People hate them. Most of them are among the least used skills in the game. They are clunky, unreliable and just not fun. You think people with high ping struggle now? Let them play with skills which disappear into nothing half the time and take twice as long to cast compared to players with normal ping for a week.

Recently ZOS has added cast times to some ultimates. This single-handedly murdered nightblades and knocked them from the top of the totem poll right to the very bottom.

Cast times on every skill is just a terrible idea which will make the game suck so much.

MajBludd

This has turned into a hysterical cry baby thread. I tend to agree the ppl who complain about it haven't figured it out, I was there once myself.
The problem is the dev's said it IS part of the game and no matter how much crying or whining you do it wont change and it isn't cheating.
I'm sorry you cant figure it out and die to ppl who can. Oh, and to the gut who said they can do 20 skills in a few seconds because of ani cancel, you sir are dumb.

FakeFox

Removing weaving would totally be in line with more recent changes, in terms of removing mechanical difficulty from the game. It's Casual Scrolls Online after all.

MajBludd

@Nyladreas if more want it removed why does the poll state the contrary?

mareeelb16_ESO

Yes because:

It was never intended... it's a historical coding accident that ZOS only sanctioned because it would be such an enormous pain to rectify. It makes no sense in terms of how combat should work.. try animation cancelling in your day to day life

It also exacerbates the ever growing ability gap between the elitist and more casual players and certainly raises some concerns when it comes to accessibility.

Jayroo

MajBludd wrote: »

@Nyladreas if more want it removed why does the poll state the contrary?

Forum users opinion majority often does not reflect the normal ESO users who don't use forums. A lot of people I talk to tend to stay away from the forums for blatantly obvious reasons. (people can't debate topics without taking things personally)

L_Nici

No. Imagine how slow the game would be if you would watch any animation fully played out.

jcm2606

EIGHTS wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

EIGHTS wrote: »

Servers of ESO can't handle animation cancel and it's cheating. ESO is lag so hard even in PvE.
If ZOS doesn't remove it, ESO is doomed. Because we don't use macro, we can't play this game.

Servers cant handle amount of people that joined the game last year.

No. It lags server many years not just last year. It's so unfair that people can do more than 20 skills in 1 seconds. It happens too quick even they can't be recorded in log.

There are too many examples.

I think there are many people use macro in PvE too. That's why ESO lags in PvE just like in Cyrodiil. This is a big problem that ZOS should deal with.

Except that's literally not how it works. A global cooldown of about 1 second is in place, and there's no way to bypass it. You can only ever cast 1 skill every second or so, that's it.

Nyladreas wrote: »

People would adapt as they always do, and those that would leave would get replaced by others, likely returning players.

Except those that adapt and those that replace those who leave would be coming into an objectively inferior experience, because they either slow themselves way down, sucking the fun out of the game, or they lock themselves into janky animations, dying to the most basic mechanics.

Nyladreas wrote: »

Zenimax never intentionally implemented it. It was an unexpected bug that they just decided to leave in.

Something like this doesn't just accidentally itself into the game, especially not in such a controlled manner, ie it works one way, but not the other (skill cancels light attack, light attack doesn't cancel skill). It was absolutely intentionally implemented, what was unintentional was players exploiting it to maximise damage.

Nyladreas wrote: »

More precise timing and higher risk if not executed well promotes a much more skilled gameplay than we have now where you're basically free to do anything altogether.

Not in an online game that is notorious for poor performance. I can firmly say that if the game moved to a combat system like what you said, it would become completely unplayable for me, as an Australian.

Nyladreas wrote: »

It is also much more player-friendly than the current "system".

Hard disagree. The natural response to seeing a telegraphed attack is to block or dodge, assuming they payed attention to the combat tutorial at the start of the game.

By removing animation cancelling and locking players into animations, you're causing that natural response to potentially kill the player, by taking away their ability to do what they think they're meant to do.

Pretty sure you'd see newer players die a lot more often if animation cancelling were to be removed, because their natural response would no longer work.

Nyladreas wrote: »

Path of Exile is a completely different kind of gameplay design. Idk why would you even want to compare PoE with ESO. ._.

Because it went through the same thing this thread is asking ESO to go through, in reverse.

And, despite the gameplay differences, the core combat style is still very similar. Both use action-styled combat systems that have the player actively defend themselves against briefly telegraphed attacks -- ESO has you dodge, block or interrupt, PoE has you move out of the way, dodge or brace for impact.

IMO, pre-animation-cancelling PoE is a good indicator of what ESO may potentially be if animation cancelling were to be removed.

Nyladreas wrote: »

Not to mention that I'm willing to bet that animation cancelling is one of the major culprits in terms of server performance decrease, desyncs, response glitches etc. since you have people basically performing way too many combined tasks at a fraction of a second with the occasional GCD here and there.

Desyncs and response glitches, sure, but performance, not really. There's way more actions going on behind-the-scenes from secondary and tertiary actions from the player, than there is with the addition of one or two more actions within the same time span.

I can guarantee that other actions, such as AoE smart heals (which need to query every player nearby, in and out of the AoE, for possible candidates, then sort those players for the top recipients, every instance of healing), are having a much larger impact on server performance, than just light attacking and occasionally bash/block cancelling.

Nyladreas wrote: »

I'd actually love to see what would really happen if they scrapped the animation cancelling... And how many of us "good" players would suddenly find themselves among the average players.

For sure a lot of us would, but only because the gameplay has been fundamentally changed into something we're not used to, something we never experienced in ESO.

Nyladreas wrote: »

I think this is the greatest reason why most people don't want it gone. Cause it allows them to "Be better" than the average player and only the mere thought of losing that position creates anxiety and damaged ego.

For me at least, no. I don't consider myself a great player, I consider myself above average at best, I really don't care about what other people think of my gameplay, and yet I don't want it gone.

Why? IMO animation cancelling helps instill a sense of fluidity and responsiveness in an otherwise clunky combat system, and the removal of it will not only severely hurt how combat feels in ESO, but will also fundamentally change combat into something it was never meant to be, all because people were too ignorant and naive to understand and accept that it's the one thing keeping this combat system together.

Again, remove it, and I can guarantee everyone who wanted it gone will want it back the moment they get a taste of what combat is like without it.

Nyladreas wrote: »

I have yet to meet anyone who genuinely enjoys this unless they're in a top-rank-chasing guild. I have yet to enjoy it myself and I do it from muscle memory. Because I had no other choice.

You're talking to one right now. Sure, improvements can be made, absolutely. But one of the things ESO got right was its realisation right from the start, that something like this is necessary if we want fluid and responsive combat.

ZeroXFF

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Wait, what are you exactly asking about? LA weaving or animation cancelling, as in one or the other? Or both? Because they're not one and the same.

LA weaving is a subset of animation cancelling. The one subset that adds nothing to the gameplay, and after a month everyone would forget existed, because they realize how much better off the game would be without it.

MajBludd

@jayroo No polls matter when they dont support what you want, right?

jcm2606

mareeelb16_ESO wrote: »

It was never intended... it's a historical coding accident that ZOS only sanctioned because it would be such an enormous pain to rectify.

As said above, something as complex as animation cancelling doesn't just accidentally itself into existence, especially not with such nuances as having things cancel in one direction, but not the other, ie skill cancels light attack, but light attack doesn't cancel skill.

Something with such deliberate behaviour as this has to be, at least to some degree, intentional, and given how consistent it is across the board and over time, it's pretty much guaranteed to be, to some degree, intentional.

Again, the priority system, the very thing that makes animation cancelling, was an intentional design choice by Zenimax, as it's a necessary feature if we want fluid and responsive combat. The unintentional and unanticipated part was likely players learning and exploiting it to maximise DPS, but that's what players do.

mareeelb16_ESO wrote: »

It makes no sense in terms of how combat should work.. try animation cancelling in your day to day life

Sticks don't magically fling out fireballs, bolts of lightning, or icicles in real life, nor do they flood people with light so bright that it mends every wound.

Daggers no bigger than a kitchen knife don't have a reach exceeding 5 meters in real life.

Bows don't have infinite arrows in real life, nor do archers fire a cluster of arrows with such precision as we see in game.

You can't hold a whip of pure flame in real life, nor can you scratch something with a claw of pure flame.

You can't conjure crystals out of thin air in real life, nor can you summon demonic flappy birds.

Point being, stop judging a game based on what is and is not possible in real life. Want an MMORPG based around medieval realism? Go play Gloria Victus.

mareeelb16_ESO wrote: »

It also exacerbates the ever growing ability gap between the elitist and more casual players and certainly raises some concerns when it comes to accessibility.

There should be a sizable gap between the elites and the more casual or newer players, else what's even the point of trying to better yourself?!

This is why I can't take the ESO community seriously, you all just want to dumb the game down so anyone who picks roses can kill the hardest boss of the hardest trial.

Rockett

Animation cancelling should be removed, but LA weaving should stay. Instead adjust all the animations to accurately represent when they do damage, they need to morph the LA animation into skill animations rather than being lazy and leaving the majority of skill animations broken and not showing the LA animation at all.

Basically 2 animations for every skill, 1 for LA weavers and 1 for just using the skill on its own. Obviously the LA weaving is more optimal.

Just look at templar jabs, the animation lasts like 1.5seconds but the damage is complete in 0.9ish seconds.

Nyladreas

MajBludd wrote: »

@Nyladreas if more want it removed why does the poll state the contrary?

You even looked at how many people voted? Also do you realize that people on the forums only make an insanely small fraction of the active playerbase? There are more people using reddit than the forums, and vast majority doesn't use either.

Jayroo

MajBludd wrote: »

@jayroo No polls matter when they dont support what you want, right?

That's some good irony

MajBludd

@jayroo @Nyladreas ok, sure then tell me when the votes goes your way how the poll magically matters and it is the whole player base voting.
But the forums only acct for a small margin of players when it doesnt.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. You are silly at best.

Jayroo

MajBludd wrote: »

@jayroo @Nyladreas ok, sure then tell me when the votes goes your way how the poll magically matters and it is the whole player base voting.
But the forums only acct for a small margin of players when it doesnt.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. You are silly at best.

You're flame-baiting for what exactly? Because I'm just stating a basic fact and your fragile ego just can't take it?

I was curious how the forums felt and now I know the forums feel very strongly over it and to never bring it up again...trust me I didn't know it would blow up to a 4 page debacle, if I did I wouldn't have created it.

Royaji

Well this escalated quickly.

MajBludd

@Nyladreas did you look at the votes? Do you think yays are in the lead? I saw the nays leading by quite a large margin.

37% for the yays, 58% for the nays. Do you know how to read a poll? You seem to think I dont.

MajBludd

No it didnt go your way, @jayroo. You even made the poll then told me the votes didnt count because they didnt account for non forum users.

I bet they'd count as proof positive if they leaned in your favor. You were looking for a confirmation for your bias, not constructive conversation.

Rowjoh

On a list of 'things-that-need-to-change' this has to be right at the bottom of anyones 'wish-list' and not even on most peoples !

Everyone knows the game is nearly 6 years old now and animation cancelling (light attack weaving) has been part of the fabric of the game since launch and is impossible to remove.

There are over 5 years worth of threads, opinions, polls, tech information etc on this right here at your finger tips and the subject of removal has been dead and buried a long long time ago.

It doesn't make sense to submit a poll about something that can't be changed and it would be far more interesting to know what your case against animation cancelling (light attack weaving) is ?

roflcopter

And people say that PVP is the more toxic community


gg zos

Royaji

Jayroo wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

@jayroo @Nyladreas ok, sure then tell me when the votes goes your way how the poll magically matters and it is the whole player base voting.
But the forums only acct for a small margin of players when it doesnt.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. You are silly at best.

You're flame-baiting for what exactly? Because I'm just stating a basic fact and your fragile ego just can't take it?

I was curious how the forums felt. I didn't now it would blow up to a 4 page debacle if I did I wouldn't have created it.

You are on the forums for a year and you did not expect an AC thread to turn into the same old trolling and poo-slinging it always does since forever? Yeah, sure.

Here is a list of other topics that have been discussed to death and can no longer be constructive since everyone is just tired of posting the exact same arguments every two weeks: Auction house, PvE Cyrodiil, openworld PvP, dungeons story mode, trials groupfinder, overland veteran mode. Those horses are very, very dead.

MajBludd

Isn't that the pt of a poll, to research ppls opinions?

January1171

Royaji wrote: »

Jayroo wrote: »

MajBludd wrote: »

@jayroo @Nyladreas ok, sure then tell me when the votes goes your way how the poll magically matters and it is the whole player base voting.
But the forums only acct for a small margin of players when it doesnt.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. You are silly at best.

You're flame-baiting for what exactly? Because I'm just stating a basic fact and your fragile ego just can't take it?

I was curious how the forums felt. I didn't now it would blow up to a 4 page debacle if I did I wouldn't have created it.

You are on the forums for a year and you did not expect an AC thread to turn into the same old trolling and poo-slinging it always does since forever? Yeah, sure.

Here is a list of other topics that have been discussed to death and can no longer be constructive since everyone is just tired of posting the exact same arguments every two weeks: Auction house, PvE Cyrodiil, openworld PvP, dungeons story mode, trials groupfinder, overland veteran mode. Those horses are very, very dead.

Don't forget account wide achievements, justice system, increased bank/inventory/housing, and nerf/buff xyz

Jayroo

MajBludd wrote: »

Isn't that the pt of a poll, to research ppls opinions?

the only conclusion I can come to with the majority of this thread is that this community is too much for me to handle and that I hope the mods get paid because this place is flame-fest

also @Royaji I dont visit these forums often for pretty glaringly obvious reasons

(the mod having to remove the first post should be self exclamatory)

and that's all i have to say

MajBludd

Maybe come to the conclusion that, as of right now, the majority do not want it removed.

I honestly do not care either way. The thing is dont get upset when ppl dont agree with what you want.

If more ppl want it then don't you, have to deal with that situation. They nerfed dk wings, I hate that they did it, but whatever. Either adapt to it or dont. Those are your options.

Jayroo

MajBludd wrote: »

Maybe come to the conclusion that, as of right now, the majority do not want it removed.

I honestly do not care either way. The thing is dont get upset when ppl dont agree with what you want.

If more ppl want it then don't you, have to deal with that situation. They nerfed dk wings, I hate that they did it, but whatever. Either adapt to it or dont. Those are your options.

Thanks man your posts have been very insightful. My third eye has been opened. "the thing is dont get upset when ppl dont agree" such words of wisdom.