Update 25 Combat Adjustments

idk · January 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

The last time there was a leak of patch notes, ZOS claimed that they were fake, yet they turned out to be accurate. So we are understandably skeptical of any claim that the latest leak is "fake", and the points brought up in this overview seems to suggest that ZOS may be lying yet again with these claims that they are "fake".

The patch notes haven't been sent to anyone to leak out. Anything you're seeing that discuss them are fake, because nobody except me has them currently.

Curious how Gina could quote on a comment from Code yet there is no comment from Code in this thread.

It will be interesting to see how this all works in PTS and hope we are coming close to an end to these major overhauls since it seems we will be going well past a year.

Edit: and here is to hoping the improved stuck in combat bug will be fixed. It would seem that something like this has to be a drain on server performance since it is often trigged by fake information and is clearly a result of Zos making it so we cannot change skills in combat even if we have not taken or done damage for a period of time. Kinda obvious.

Finedaible · January 2020

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hello all!

[...] While making these fixes, many of the item sets affected have also been updated to fall in line with our item set or ability standards to ensure their overall power remains closer to their intended design.

Finally, we are addressing Magicka/Stamina sustain, especially in encounters where longer fights or prolonged damage in specific areas are required. With that in mind, we are reducing the cost of Area of Effect Damage over Time (AE DoT) abilities to reduce the pressure on your Magicka/Stamina while utilizing a rotation involving an AE DoT. This does result in a revised standard between Single Target DoTs and AE DoTs which we will be evaluating with the live game and on the PTS.
[...]

Why do these sentences fill me with dread? It sounds like it will be another seesaw with the DoT balances we just had last pts cycle. I just ask that you please do not make even more sets useless in this endeavor for standardization, especially the crafted sets. I'm tired of chasing a set for a build only to have it be rendered useless before I can even complete it. The grind for sets and traits is just too much for constant meta changes.

ManwithBeard9 · January 2020

idk wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

The last time there was a leak of patch notes, ZOS claimed that they were fake, yet they turned out to be accurate. So we are understandably skeptical of any claim that the latest leak is "fake", and the points brought up in this overview seems to suggest that ZOS may be lying yet again with these claims that they are "fake".

The patch notes haven't been sent to anyone to leak out. Anything you're seeing that discuss them are fake, because nobody except me has them currently.

Curious how Gina could quote on a comment from Code yet there is no comment from Code in this thread.

It will be interesting to see how this all works in PTS and hope we are coming close to an end to these major overhauls since it seems we will be going well past a year.

Edit: and here is to hoping the improved stuck in combat bug will be fixed. It would seem that something like this has to be a drain on server performance since it is often trigged by fake information and is clearly a result of Zos making it so we cannot change skills in combat even if we have not taken or done damage for a period of time. Kinda obvious.

Guessing you missed the comment from a forum admin that some comments were deleted? Code's was one of them. And yes, it was, I saw it before it was removed.

Nestor · January 2020

...

Haink · January 2020

Any chance of reverting the poor changes to werewolf so I can resub and enjoy this game again?

Starlock · January 2020

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

StrandedMonkey · January 2020

So if you guys are changing AOE, does that mean we'll see changes to skills like Utility AOEs (skills like Bone Totem and Turn Evil) and Ultimates as well?

MartiniDaniels · January 2020

Starlock wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

If you don't care about PVP, why you care about block cancelling?

Royaji · January 2020

Starlock wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

Cool. Just be careful that one day you might find out that some people really don't care about vanity items, that abysmal roleplay or "pReDAtOrY mONeTiSaTIoN" rants. If I wanted a game without said "pReDAtOrY mONeTiSaTIoN" I will... eh.. well, go outside?

karekiz · January 2020

Finedaible wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hello all!

[...] While making these fixes, many of the item sets affected have also been updated to fall in line with our item set or ability standards to ensure their overall power remains closer to their intended design.

Finally, we are addressing Magicka/Stamina sustain, especially in encounters where longer fights or prolonged damage in specific areas are required. With that in mind, we are reducing the cost of Area of Effect Damage over Time (AE DoT) abilities to reduce the pressure on your Magicka/Stamina while utilizing a rotation involving an AE DoT. This does result in a revised standard between Single Target DoTs and AE DoTs which we will be evaluating with the live game and on the PTS.
[...]

Why do these sentences fill me with dread? It sounds like it will be another seesaw with the DoT balances we just had last pts cycle. I just ask that you please do not make even more sets useless in this endeavor for standardization, especially the crafted sets. I'm tired of chasing a set for a build only to have it be rendered useless before I can even complete it. The grind for sets and traits is just too much for constant meta changes.

Balance racials -> Balance AoE/ST -> Balance Class Skills -> Balance passives -> Rebalance CP -> realize that with the global change to CP all numbers before need to be adjusted to match new CP system -> Rebalance racials -> Rebalance AoE/ST -> Rebalance Class Skills -> Rebalance Passives -> K, now what new system do we add now? Spell crafting maybe?

Rex-Umbra · January 2020

Curious indeed.

Casterial · January 2020

Starlock wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

Overwatch is not an MMO. Move along, the PVP in this game is extraordinarily good for an mmo.

YandereGirlfriend · January 2020

As a Scathing Mage user, seeing that as the lone set specifically mentioned in the OP makes be VERY nervous indeed!

It's not even a meta set and you have to slant your entire build to make it work, if it gets nerfed into Oblivion in the Don Qixote quest of "standardization" I am going to be WAY SALTY.

Austinseph1 · January 2020

I am hopeful for his patch, It is too early to tell if anything will be hit with the hammer as many things do when being "touched" by the combat team but for now it looks hopeful.

frozywozy · January 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

When are we going to see an acknowledgement of the memory leak and an ongoing fix?

We actually have a fix for a memory leak in this week’s PC incremental patch.

Thank you for the quick follow up on this.

Ragnarock41 · January 2020

Starlock wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

Ah yes, Overwatch, just the perfect ''fast-paced skill game'' for the average ESO player.

On a more serious note, if you don't care for PvP, why even complain over it? Go enjoy the PvE, nobody is holding you back.

RMerlin · January 2020

nafensoriel wrote: »

Except its already been said many times the servers are not the issue the software running on them is.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. They've been optimizing the code for four years now, and performance is still a train wreck in PvP. I still think that part of the problem is tied to the hardware and the network infrastructure.

Starlock · January 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

If you don't care about PVP, why you care about block cancelling?

Well, considering it is not some PvP exclusive mechanic but one that is present in the entire game, I’m not sure how this is a valid question.

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

Overwatch is not an MMO. Move along, the PVP in this game is extraordinarily good for an mmo.

Dear lords... if what you say is true the PvP in other MMOs must be so utterly abysmal as to be entirely nonfunctional. I wish I could say I was joking when I remark that the PvP in this game is easily the worst I have ever experienced.

nafensoriel · January 2020

RMerlin wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Except its already been said many times the servers are not the issue the software running on them is.

Sorry, but I don't buy it. They've been optimizing the code for four years now, and performance is still a train wreck in PvP. I still think that part of the problem is tied to the hardware and the network infrastructure.

Optimizing is not refactoring.
Optimizing is tweaking what exist.
Refactoring is ripping out that part and entirely remaking it. Internally refactored code doesn't have to remotely resemble what it was before it only has to maintain links and output as expected by other areas of the program.

You can optimize a segment of code over a weekend. You may get some improvement(probably not) but you aren't going to solve world peace doing it. If you are refactoring 10-year-old spaghetti you WILL get a performance advantage by using newer tricks and methods or exploiting advancements in technology that didn't exist when the original code was finalized.

Honestly, the obsession with server upgrades is extremely out of date. It was true in the late 90s. It isn't true now. With VM and containerized development speed between servers and speed between storage is far more important than the raw CPU speed. CPU speeds, in general, are not advancing all that quickly. A 6700k from 2015 is barely 15% slower single-core wise to a brand new state of the art ryzen. No one in software brute forces tasks anymore. We found out there are serious hard stops in doing that.

Seriously take 5 minutes and look at IBMs page on containerization.
https://www.ibm.com/cloud/learn/containerization
It isn't for sure this is what ZOS is doing but it will highlight some of the actual problems with servers and how we are getting around those problems today. We for darn sure aren't just chasing gigahertz anymore(and we never really did).

GrimTheReaper45 · January 2020

This seems ok

JusticeSouldier · January 2020

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

Hello all!

We’d like to take some time to go over our goals for the next Update coming to ESO, and some of the more noteworthy changes you’ll see.

For Update 25, the Combat Team’s primary focus has been on performance improvements, particularly related to Block and item set proc conditions. While making these adjustments, we are also bringing any item sets affected into combat standards. As a reminder, the term “standards” means we are simply using consistent formulas that determine how much an ability should cost and how effective it should be based on various factors such as being an Area Effect, having an Over-Time effect, complexity of execution, etc. This process will continue in future updates for item sets.

Block is an ability that everyone can use at any time, which means it can create a lot of traffic for the server to handle. In our continued efforts to improve performance, we are adjusting how the ability works under the hood. You will still be able to do everything you used to with Block. What you’ll notice is animations will blend a bit differently out of a “block cancel”, but the effectiveness of an ability will remain and function the same; the ability will still fire when “block cancelled” but you won’t have any “dead time” before the global combat cooldown ends. This should also get rid of a few health desync issues when getting killing blows with abilities that have been triggered after a block cancel. By refactoring Block much the same way we did with Sprint in the previous Update, we expect the usage of that ability to be more performant.

Next, we’ve been focusing on bug fixes and conditional logic (item set and ability procs). Many abilities and item sets have to step through several requirements to fire their effect beyond their standard line of sight, cost, range, etc. From these changes, the conditions for procs will now work more reliably with their stated requirements. For example, Scathing Mage will no longer erroneously trigger from the first tick of any Damage over Time, and Reflective Scales will no longer work versus channeled effects such as Radiant Destruction. While making these fixes, many of the item sets affected have also been updated to fall in line with our item set or ability standards to ensure their overall power remains closer to their intended design.

Finally, we are addressing Magicka/Stamina sustain, especially in encounters where longer fights or prolonged damage in specific areas are required. With that in mind, we are reducing the cost of Area of Effect Damage over Time (AE DoT) abilities to reduce the pressure on your Magicka/Stamina while utilizing a rotation involving an AE DoT. This does result in a revised standard between Single Target DoTs and AE DoTs which we will be evaluating with the live game and on the PTS.

Again, our focus for U25 is primarily on performance updates and bug fixing which you’ll see in more detail when we publish the patch notes. We encourage everyone to hop on the PTS when we publish U25 to run through the adjustments and give us feedback!

Are u going to so something with tank meta?
I mean, only way now to counter overdefencive things is - Onslaughts and dk's Corrosive armor...
No another ways to create a feedback to overtankiness.
Thats why pvp is really boring very long time (I predicted this at summer...here at forum and in feedbacks to support).
It's always a must to create a negative feedback to tankiness in combat design to prevent "troll pandemia".

Before elsweyr we had overperforming bleeds...they in their that form were a big hole in the system and were need adjustments.
But, changes eliminated them as a sourse of damage...

I asked in the past to make them working proportionally more effective after reaching some number of target's resists.
Starting at number equivalent of standart target-skeleton has for example.
With huge increasing when target has resists cap.
... Onslaught (cast timed or not) should not be only one way to go.

and, Maces, Mauls mechanics...
The only reason why their passives are usefull now is previous issue. Almost no one used them before.
Maybe it's time to change something with their "ignoring some % of resists lasts at target after debuffs" to or constant values (primitive way but dam..), or completly change them, like for example 1-handed maces to become 1-handed staves?
4 types of 1handed physical weapons...3 is more than enouch.
I handed ice staves for magicka-based tanking... Aestetics of tanking with this will be much better than current "frost stick instead shield"...

2handed mauls in such case can stay at current form, just with correcting this "ignoring some % of resists lasts at target after debuffs" to more adequate mechanics...

With 2 handed ice staves coming into oblivion (hope for this very much, ice staves "block" mechanics is ugly solution from such mechanics to be implemented few years ago...very ugly, we need some changes here).
Or better to replace them with Spears as a new weapon type.
My brother and I asked this in the past...

Agalloch · January 2020

@ZOS_BrianWheeler, @ZOS_GinaBruno , What happened with the Class Rep Program ??? We have no update in the last 6 months!

I REALLY hope Update 25 to not bring again huge nerfs!

Please give us the class identity you promissed!

[Removed for misinformation]

Thank you in advance!

MartiniDaniels · January 2020

Starlock wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

If you don't care about PVP, why you care about block cancelling?

Well, considering it is not some PvP exclusive mechanic but one that is present in the entire game, I’m not sure how this is a valid question.

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

Overwatch is not an MMO. Move along, the PVP in this game is extraordinarily good for an mmo.

Dear lords... if what you say is true the PvP in other MMOs must be so utterly abysmal as to be entirely nonfunctional. I wish I could say I was joking when I remark that the PvP in this game is easily the worst I have ever experienced.

From PVE point, removing block cancelling will be a disaster. All PVE tanks naturally block cancel all day long. Imagine that you need to wait for full heroic slash animation or chain animation... tanks will be killed while waiting for animation to end and since majority of damage in latest veteran content one shots if not blocked, no amount of healing can help with that.

relentless_turnip · January 2020

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

If you don't care about PVP, why you care about block cancelling?

Well, considering it is not some PvP exclusive mechanic but one that is present in the entire game, I’m not sure how this is a valid question.

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Some thoughts:
You mention abilities will still fire when block cancelled. Is changing this something you now have the ability to do? That abilities still fire when block cancelled is easily the most bizarre thing to me about this game. I understand some players consider it a mainstay, but I for one wouldn't shed any tears if it went away entirely. Perhaps something best reserved for an ESO2 if that's on the horizon as there'd be less of a whinefest to do this in a new game.

ESO would be too slow for its fast paced combat. Block Cancel at some point became a "Skill Ceiling" and it is even taught in tutorials. Removing this would just make pvp even more dull.

I really don't care about "fast paced combat" or what someone else's idea of "too slow" would be, and I definitely don't care about the abysmal game mode that is PvP. If I wanted a fast-paced, PvP game I would reinstall Overwatch, not play ESO.

Overwatch is not an MMO. Move along, the PVP in this game is extraordinarily good for an mmo.

Dear lords... if what you say is true the PvP in other MMOs must be so utterly abysmal as to be entirely nonfunctional. I wish I could say I was joking when I remark that the PvP in this game is easily the worst I have ever experienced.

From PVE point, removing block cancelling will be a disaster. All PVE tanks naturally block cancel all day long. Imagine that you need to wait for full heroic slash animation or chain animation... tanks will be killed while waiting for animation to end and since majority of damage in latest veteran content one shots if not blocked, no amount of healing can help with that.

I don't think ZOS are suggesting they are going to remove animation cancelling, only that they are reworking the way it is executed. I imagine in a similar vain to how they reworked sprint. If you read Brian's statement he does say it will still cancel the animation. I think it might feel different, but it should still function the same... They did an excellent job with sprint so let's give it some time.

KageNin · January 2020

Great can't wait to see how another of their audits will pan out, see ya in 6months.

gepe87 · January 2020

Summarizing:
Block animations ,AoE costs and make more sets useless.
Only that?

Mayrael · January 2020

gepe87 wrote: »

Summarizing:
Block animations ,AoE costs and make more sets useless.
Only that?

Cloak, cloak will get nerfed hard and magblades in general will get nerfed even more

Juhasow · January 2020

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

When are we going to see an acknowledgement of the memory leak and an ongoing fix?

We actually have a fix for a memory leak in this week’s PC incremental patch.

I've heared that already.

Juhasow · January 2020

So in general 1 step forward 2 steps back. As usuall nothing special to expect. The cycle continues. Reverting old changes that sucked and introducing new ones that will suck and gets reverted few months later.

Seriously combat team in this game is a meme at this point and game looses so much because of it.

Agalloch · January 2020

I really hope only for good news.