this undaunted event has a rise in fake healers.

AcadianPaladin · January 2020

I wanted another Slimecraw helm so my (real) healer queued up for vWR1 when it was the pledge during the event.

My pug were all decent players ranging from CP500-max and the tank and dds knew their roles. Tank led and pulled, dds poured on reasonable damage and my healer did her job.

Specifically, when all was going well, she kept up HoTs, orbs, shards, EleDrain, Prayer and other buffs as well. What a lot of folks don't seem to appreciate is that a real healer will normally deliver about 15k dps just as a byproduct of shards, orbs (I use the damage morph), Reflective Light (snare, minor sorcery, damage), wall (off- balance and damage) and weaving light attacks.

The dungeon progressed well and my healer did have to make a couple 'saves' along the way. The big challenge for us was the final boss in hard mode. The tank, both dps and my healer were, again, decent players but not elite. My healer saved both dps more than once from the boss' near one shot double attack and I did lose one of the dps. Thankfully, the other dps immediately jumped onto rez duty. That turned out to be a good thing because that is when the tank began to struggle as well and required his own burst heals from me. Had I been rezzing the dd instead of focusing on the tank, I'm confident we would have lost the tank and subsequently wiped. This was just a basic but reasonably qualified group that knew their jobs and did them adequately. Without the tank we would have wiped. Without the combined damage of our dps we would have wiped. And, yes, without the healer we would have wiped.

And I got the Slimecraw helm in the weight that I wanted.

UltraMex · January 2020

Hmm one time a Healer got lost and we've managed to wipe few mobs before even realize it. I only find tanking in normal useful when you need to AoE mobs, for boss? As long a (Real) Healer is there and you dodge it's attacks.
Just my experience so far.

LadyNalcarya · January 2020

Kelces wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Kelces wrote: »

It seems, it's always the same response one gets from opening a thread like this: "hey, I did this with only dps!" or "I can solo vet Dungeons!" etc.

I play every role and I get those statements and I managed to do similar things and it can be a nice challenge, but that's not the point of this game.

Teamplay, which is what both the tank and healer role are about, compared to DPS is discouraged on a wide basis. So much for PvE not being problematic, or even toxic at times. I think, that speaks volumes...

I wouldn't say that teamplay is discouraged, it is actually required for dlc content.
It's just hard to find it in pugs.

Well, I am. Review the comments and see what is being said...
Since DPS is only looking on their meter - I rarely see them revive others or use tactical morphs like "venom arrow" or "crushing shock" - what else should I think of it?

I don't think that average pug is looking at their dps meter at all, if they cared about it, fake dd problem would've been solved. It's not always their fault, of course - group content in ESO is very dps-focused but at the same time the game doesn't tell that to new players and doesn't teach them.
And yes, there are a few instances where crushing shock is nice to have, but it's unwise to remorph your poison injection just for interrupts when you are just doing a quick random normal to get event tickets.

So it is only about damage after all...

It actually is, objectively. ESO dungeons are created like this and with so many fake dds every bit of damage helps. On the other hand, there's only a few situaions that require crushing shock, and I personally wouldnt recommend pugging vAS+poison boss anyway.
And before you start, I'm not saying that you don't need to pay attention to the mechanics etc. But dps makes a world of difference.

Which proves my point about the general mentality, which is: DPS meter > all. Even though players who could do decent damage, would do so with either morphs.

Yeah, but why would they suddenly have to re-morph it to pug? Doesnt make sense to me. Randomly spamming interrupt doesnt make you a team player.
And it's not about players mentality. I've said this already, but the game is very dps-centric when it comes to group content. Blame the developers if you don't like it, I'm personally not a fan of it either, but that's how it is.

They can keep the "suboptimal" morphs, remorph is not needed for those who are capable, that's how it actually is. I am not blaiming the developers, because there is no need for it in this case. It's peer pressure by players who make it seem, as if there is no other way and you are reinforcing that illusion.

Those who are capable can just bash the mob when its channeling something. It's weird that you chose this very situational thing instead of something like mystic orbs (since not every pug healer will run them).
But anyway. I've been playing as healer for years, and I'm pretty sure that low dps drastically reduces group's chances of success and this is not an illusion. And I don't think there's any peer pressure when it comes to dps in pugs. Can't expect the majority of players to have addons and practice their rotations.

You make it seem as if choosing something you don't approve of, as being the cause of "low dps" (meaning really poor), which is ridiculous. Just as the mention of "spamming X", which is ridiculous and I never mentioned, but I guess it is desperation. By "capable" I meant damage-wise not about interrupt-bashing, another weird assumption - It's not always possible to be in melee range btw. There is only a single-digit percentage of DPS loss for those who know how to DPS and that should still be enough for demanding folk like you.

Maybe you should try tank aswell, then you could appreciate the breathing room a bit more that someone gets you by various tactical abilities this game provides. And just to make it clear: I am not the one forcing or demanding anyone to choose anything I am talking about.

Use that for an analogy: Wouldn't it be weird, to have two tanks in a trial and both wear the Ebony set for example as the group are all standing together? That's what I mean, just encourage a little bit of variety.

Desperation? Did you know that crushing shock is literally a spammable?
I actually tank (and dps, too - those are just not my main roles), and I prefer 3dds for most dungeons. When people die in dungeons, it's usually an oneshot anyway. Actually, this was discussed many times, because healers being less useful is a legit issue.
The only time I ever had a problem with interrupts was when we started vAS progression with Llothis (but to be fair, that one is quite difficult to get used to).
All of this has nothing to do with me approving anything, that's just how game works. There is an issue with the lack of tanks and healers in group finder, and many of us do not queue as support roles because there's too many bad/fake/whatever-you call-them dds. Therefore, I disagree with the notion that "fake healers" are all that bad, if I were still pugging, I'd be happy with that.
And maybe if more people were more "demanding" there would be more real tanks and healers that are willing to queue?

zvavi · January 2020

Reverb wrote: »

gatekeeper13 wrote: »

Fake healers should be instant kick. Period.

What’s your success rate at getting a vote passed?

0%. I was trying to kick a fake dd that kept taunting the boss. Also, @LadySinflower u know whats my success rate at asking frost staff dds to stop taunting the boss? 25%. One person out of 4 said aw ok, sorry and never did it again. So your whole argument of "talk" to other players is *** imho because i am, and it doesn't really work.

This is past week's experience leveling my sorc tank

Ardan147 · January 2020

I know all too well what it's like to try to tank a dungeon when the entire group's combined dps is under 20k. Happened to me over the weekend when tanking Selene's Web - I had never seen so many adds out at once in the fight against the final boss, because we were simply unable to kill them quickly enough (and this wasn't even hard mode!). Of course we wiped. On the second attempt I was running around hitting everything with Pierce Armor one by one so they would all direct their attacks at me, and was just able to heal myself enough to not die. We were successful the second time; there was not going to be a third if we weren't (at least not with me).

On my healer I can still hit over 20k dps equipped as a healer, and I also run that character as a dps. Typically I run her as a healer for dungeons and a dps for trials, though I could heal instead if that's what's needed.

Bobby_V_Rockit · January 2020

So, to my understanding then, according to this thread, healers are useless and/or obsolete. SO, if I want to be carried through a dungeon, I should queue as healer then? Because I’m not costing the group anything right?

Darkstorne · January 2020

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

I wanted another Slimecraw helm so my (real) healer queued up for vWR1 when it was the pledge during the event.

My pug were all decent players ranging from CP500-max and the tank and dds knew their roles. Tank led and pulled, dds poured on reasonable damage and my healer did her job.

Specifically, when all was going well, she kept up HoTs, orbs, shards, EleDrain, Prayer and other buffs as well. What a lot of folks don't seem to appreciate is that a real healer will normally deliver about 15k dps just as a byproduct of shards, orbs (I use the damage morph), Reflective Light (snare, minor sorcery, damage) and weaving light attacks.

The dungeon progressed well and my healer did have to make a couple 'saves' along the way. The big challenge for us was the final boss in hard mode. The tank, both dps and my healer were, again, decent players but not elite. My healer saved both dps more than once from the boss' near one shot double attack and I did lose one of the dps. Thankfully, the other dps immediately jumped onto rez duty. That turned out to be a good thing because that is when the tank began to struggle as well and required his own burst heals from me. Had I been rezzing the dd instead of focusing on the tank, I'm confident we would have lost the tank and subsequently wiped. This was just a basic but reasonably qualified group that knew their jobs and did them adequately. Without the tank we would have wiped. Without the combined damage of our dps we would have wiped. And, yes, without the healer we would have wiped.

And I got the Slimecraw helm in the weight that I wanted.

Man, that's such a good story to hear as a healer

I did a White-Gold Tower run yesterday as a healer, and while the tank and one of the DPS were both good players, our second DPS was an archer who didn't use any skills, just stood still light attacking. He also spoke really bad english, so it was hard to talk to him about why his DPS was so low. He insisted there weren't enough debuffs in the group, and that was why his DPS was lacking

When our main DPS died against Molag Kena, the tank kept asking our light attack archer to rez, but he understood what we could not. That without his feet firmly planted in one spot, light attacking like there was no tomorrow, we wouldn't live to see another sunrise. Guess the healer is on rez duty then!

But this is one of the reasons I like ESO having only two DPS instead of three. It means every role is super important. And while we occasionally see forum threads like this complaining about fake healers, I think fake DPS are an equally frustrating problem

Flips · January 2020

Had a different experiance in direfrost the other day: Werewolf tank with two hander sword, and 1000 cp. Upper cut and execute spamming.

We made it to last boss, where the mechanics put an end to his run. 50k dps wasnt enough when he didnt break free from that healing mechanics. Think he was out of stamina as WW. No communication, so we had to kick him. Healer also left.

New tank and healer arrives. HM mode completed after a short while.

MEBengalsFan2001 · January 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

It was funny last night several times we qued as (real) tank, healer, DD and (real) tank, DD, DD. The later was actually popping quicker which can only mean there were more players queuing as solo healers than solo DD. Never seen that before. That's a lot of "Fake" healers lol.

Though "Fake" healer gets a really bad rap though. In base game dungeons when I sign up as healer on say a Trial CP/setted healer I'm pretty much useless. If I do it on a real DD, I simply slot one heal, mystic orb, and keep everyone alive (save one-shots on DDs, tank deaths, or prolonged standing in the red choices) I don't understand the issue. The only comments I've gotten in actual PUGs have been positive as the run was faster. Spending 95% of resources on over-healing just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

"Healers" in this game are not healers. They are support to enhance the group allocating resources to whatever is needed: damage, healing, tanking, whatever. That's the job of a "Healer" when I sign up as one. It's always a mystery what I'll actually be doing, but that's the job.

Healers are the group buff bots....They provide resources, debuff, buff, and last but not least heals. Healing is more of a side effects from the buffs from the abilities used. Combat prayer is a great example of a group buff ability used that also heals. Healing is not why it is being used, it is being used for the damage buff.

TequilaFire · January 2020

Vote kick, a megalomaniac's I win button.

thadjarvis · January 2020

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

So, to my understanding then, according to this thread, healers are useless and/or obsolete. SO, if I want to be carried through a dungeon, I should queue as healer then? Because I’m not costing the group anything right?

Healers are not useless at all. In coordinated groups they effectively provide more damage than a DD through buffs/debuffs (in trials bc of scaling 1 healer to 4 DD vs 1 to 2 in dungeon). We are support and should allocate to buffs, CC, synergy spam, healing, and damage based on group and content needs with is not always (in fact rarely) the same even within an instance. General healer builds and general expectations of "healers" without context doesn't make much sense.

On should you queue as a healer. I would say what role can you full-fill. If we're talking most base game dungeons, the requirement for a healer would probably just be a class burst heal and maybe a HoT if the group is really green. Thus, if you are magika toon or stamina with Echoing Vigor and/or bone shield you'd qualify imo. Moreover, if you can do that but you don't know how to tank or if you've been in a base game dungeon run that failed due to not enough damage in the recent past, then the best role for the group's success would be healer.

idk · January 2020

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

thadjarvis · January 2020

Fake tank is different as taunting, grouping ads etc. is needed consistently throughout a run for it to be smooth. It's actually hard to tell if the "fake tank" is indeed fake in intention or maybe just a "bad tank".

You do get taunt right off the bat but all the other skills can be far off in the leveling progression that enable easy adds control. Some classes get burst heal/shield and sustain tools very late in leveling. This includes already CP toons as they may not have the skills either bc they just got to 50 or respected it from something else. If it's a normal dungeon that should be totally expected. Anything goes in dungeon queue, but particularly in normal one should expect players to have very few skills unlocked and limited knowledge on how to use the one's available. Help them if they're open to it. Acknowledging something they're doing great and adding ONE tip (not 5 at once) works great.

"Fake tanks" may also be trying to LoS group trash and the group is disallowing it. Recall that ESO tanks were not all DK's when it released and there was no Silver Leash at that time. The fake tank may not have access to the skill or is honestly trying to work on LoS grouping tactics as many parts of the game essentially deactivate CC. Ask them how you can work as a team.

ForzaRammer · January 2020

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

It’s just you definition. Not commonly accepted fact.
And what is the bare minimum for dps doesn’t matters anyways.

You talk like bare minimum tank should be matched with bare minimum dps, that’s just a load of bs. There are tons of average dps waiting in que.

Bare minimum tank deserve at least average dps just because tanks are rare. And sub 10k dps deserves wiping with fake tank.

FrancisCrawford · January 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

So, to my understanding then, according to this thread, healers are useless and/or obsolete. SO, if I want to be carried through a dungeon, I should queue as healer then? Because I’m not costing the group anything right?

Healers are not useless at all. In coordinated groups they effectively provide more damage than a DD through buffs/debuffs (in trials bc of scaling 1 healer to 4 DD vs 1 to 2 in dungeon). We are support and should allocate to buffs, CC, synergy spam, healing, and damage based on group and content needs with is not always (in fact rarely) the same even within an instance. General healer builds and general expectations of "healers" without context doesn't make much sense.

On should you queue as a healer. I would say what role can you full-fill. If we're talking most base game dungeons, the requirement for a healer would probably just be a class burst heal and maybe a HoT if the group is really green. Thus, if you are magika toon or stamina with Echoing Vigor and/or bone shield you'd qualify imo. Moreover, if you can do that but you don't know how to tank or if you've been in a base game dungeon run that failed due to not enough damage in the recent past, then the best role for the group's success would be healer.

How does the arithmetic on that work?

Minor Berserk should add >5% to DPS when it's up.
Major Courage should usually add between 3 and 4% to DPS when it's up, depending on people's effective spell power and so on.
How do you figure the value of sustain buffs? (Ignoring the fact that Magickasteal is technically a debuff.)
How do you figure the value of saving teammates the trouble of healing themselves?
Are you assuming Warhorn?
Anything else? (Note: Some class-specific group buffs could come just as easily from a DD.)

thadjarvis · January 2020

Yes add Warhorn, the sets they where (1-5% each), off balance, minor vulnerability, synergy provider for sustain/lokk/alkosh, DD's spend less or no resources self-healing, etc.

Certainly interested in the exact numbers, but I think the burden of proof is to show that replacing one with a traditional damage dealer with a heal slotted would be better. Otherwise, optimizing end-game groups would just run 10 DDs with echoing vigor/RoP. People said that would happen when they changed healing but it did not.

Eg a warden healer wearing Olo/MK running fetcher: call Olo 5%, MK 5%, Fetcher 8%, Minor Beserk (4% half credit to other healer). Maybe less but that's 22% from just that part of the build not including the damage the healer is doing directly. Note that 22% is much less because of diminishing mulitplier but still higher than 12.5% (of DD's damage WITHOUT those buffs, not after).

Suppose uptime is lower 60%, add in the rest of the build functions (warhorn etc.), direct damage, etc. and you should be still way over 12.5%. Otherwise, why would anyone ever use a healer if we could just self-heal. Moreover, people take them into 4 player content in which the healer to DD ratio is cut in half and we still see value (it's a toss up for many).

Contaminate · January 2020

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

So, to my understanding then, according to this thread, healers are useless and/or obsolete. SO, if I want to be carried through a dungeon, I should queue as healer then? Because I’m not costing the group anything right?

Healers are not useless at all. In coordinated groups they effectively provide more damage than a DD through buffs/debuffs (in trials bc of scaling 1 healer to 4 DD vs 1 to 2 in dungeon). We are support and should allocate to buffs, CC, synergy spam, healing, and damage based on group and content needs with is not always (in fact rarely) the same even within an instance. General healer builds and general expectations of "healers" without context doesn't make much sense.

On should you queue as a healer. I would say what role can you full-fill. If we're talking most base game dungeons, the requirement for a healer would probably just be a class burst heal and maybe a HoT if the group is really green. Thus, if you are magika toon or stamina with Echoing Vigor and/or bone shield you'd qualify imo. Moreover, if you can do that but you don't know how to tank or if you've been in a base game dungeon run that failed due to not enough damage in the recent past, then the best role for the group's success would be healer.

How does the arithmetic on that work?
Minor Berserk should add >5% to DPS when it's up.

Major Courage should usually add between 3 and 4% to DPS when it's up, depending on people's effective spell power and so on.

How do you figure the value of sustain buffs? (Ignoring the fact that Magickasteal is technically a debuff.)

How do you figure the value of saving teammates the trouble of healing themselves?

Are you assuming Warhorn?

Anything else? (Note: Some class-specific group buffs could come just as easily from a DD.)

Minor Berserk adds 8% damage done to everyone

Major Courage adds 256 weapon/spell damage, ~10% of the typical total weapon/spell damages

Minor Fracture/Breach (assuming Templar) takes out another 1,320 enemy resistances

Maintains Off-Balance uptimes for the CP star bonus (10% increased damage while Off-Balance)

Provides approx. 198 regen/s of each dps’ primary stat (either orb morph, or shards)

Saves the dps the trouble of slotting a self heal, meaning another damage skill on their bar.

Major Courage, Minor Berserk, and a good Off-Balance uptime will boost group dps of 50k up to 60k and let it go for the most part uninterrupted because the healing offsets ambient damage. The healer can pop on 10-15k dps on top of that.

So, a good healer brings 25k group dps to an average dps group, nearly 200 regen/s to all group members, and provides the ability to deal all that damage with minimal disruptions.

As the dps get better, a healer adds even more to group damage, but if ambient damage is low, then bringing another dps makes sense.

Royaji · January 2020

Contaminate wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

So, to my understanding then, according to this thread, healers are useless and/or obsolete. SO, if I want to be carried through a dungeon, I should queue as healer then? Because I’m not costing the group anything right?

Healers are not useless at all. In coordinated groups they effectively provide more damage than a DD through buffs/debuffs (in trials bc of scaling 1 healer to 4 DD vs 1 to 2 in dungeon). We are support and should allocate to buffs, CC, synergy spam, healing, and damage based on group and content needs with is not always (in fact rarely) the same even within an instance. General healer builds and general expectations of "healers" without context doesn't make much sense.

On should you queue as a healer. I would say what role can you full-fill. If we're talking most base game dungeons, the requirement for a healer would probably just be a class burst heal and maybe a HoT if the group is really green. Thus, if you are magika toon or stamina with Echoing Vigor and/or bone shield you'd qualify imo. Moreover, if you can do that but you don't know how to tank or if you've been in a base game dungeon run that failed due to not enough damage in the recent past, then the best role for the group's success would be healer.

How does the arithmetic on that work?
Minor Berserk should add >5% to DPS when it's up.

Major Courage should usually add between 3 and 4% to DPS when it's up, depending on people's effective spell power and so on.

How do you figure the value of sustain buffs? (Ignoring the fact that Magickasteal is technically a debuff.)

How do you figure the value of saving teammates the trouble of healing themselves?

Are you assuming Warhorn?

Anything else? (Note: Some class-specific group buffs could come just as easily from a DD.)

Minor Berserk adds 8% damage done to everyone

Major Courage adds 256 weapon/spell damage, ~10% of the typical total weapon/spell damages

Minor Fracture/Breach (assuming Templar) takes out another 1,320 enemy resistances

Maintains Off-Balance uptimes for the CP star bonus (10% increased damage while Off-Balance)

Provides approx. 198 regen/s of each dps’ primary stat (either orb morph, or shards)

Saves the dps the trouble of slotting a self heal, meaning another damage skill on their bar.

Major Courage, Minor Berserk, and a good Off-Balance uptime will boost group dps of 50k up to 60k and let it go for the most part uninterrupted because the healing offsets ambient damage. The healer can pop on 10-15k dps on top of that.

So, a good healer brings 25k group dps to an average dps group, nearly 200 regen/s to all group members, and provides the ability to deal all that damage with minimal disruptions.

As the dps get better, a healer adds even more to group damage, but if ambient damage is low, then bringing another dps makes sense.

All of that implies that your DDs are capable of doing more than 30k DPS. And this is just not the case in most groupfinder groups.

Buffs and all that shizz are great. If you have something to buff to begin with.

idk · January 2020

.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

It’s just you definition. Not commonly accepted fact.
And what is the bare minimum for dps doesn’t matters anyways.

You talk like bare minimum tank should be matched with bare minimum dps, that’s just a load of bs. There are tons of average dps waiting in que.

Bare minimum tank deserve at least average dps just because tanks are rare. And sub 10k dps deserves wiping with fake tank.

Wow, Holy put words into my mouth here. Please to not make such false comments as it is clear I never suggested bare minimum tanks should be paired with bare minimum dps.

However, I will say if someone chooses to have the GF pair them with random players they are asking for the possibility for being paired with bare minimum players. Best way to avoid that is form your own group. Going that direction is why I rarely have an issue with vet DLC
dungeons.

Edit: This is also why decent tanks do not queue solo in the GF. We prefer to run with solid players so we form our own group or join in on them from our raiding guilds. Yes, bad dps is an issue, I do not deny that but a true fake tank is more of an issue as the not only cannot perform the most basic function of their role but they are generally not good dps either.

VaranisArano · January 2020

thadjarvis wrote: »

Fake tank is different as taunting, grouping ads etc. is needed consistently throughout a run for it to be smooth. It's actually hard to tell if the "fake tank" is indeed fake in intention or maybe just a "bad tank".

You do get taunt right off the bat but all the other skills can be far off in the leveling progression that enable easy adds control. Some classes get burst heal/shield and sustain tools very late in leveling. This includes already CP toons as they may not have the skills either bc they just got to 50 or respected it from something else. If it's a normal dungeon that should be totally expected. Anything goes in dungeon queue, but particularly in normal one should expect players to have very few skills unlocked and limited knowledge on how to use the one's available. Help them if they're open to it. Acknowledging something they're doing great and adding ONE tip (not 5 at once) works great.

"Fake tanks" may also be trying to LoS group trash and the group is disallowing it. Recall that ESO tanks were not all DK's when it released and there was no Silver Leash at that time. The fake tank may not have access to the skill or is honestly trying to work on LoS grouping tactics as many parts of the game essentially deactivate CC. Ask them how you can work as a team.

It ain't hard to tell a fake tank from a new/bad tank.

Is the boss all up in my healer's face consistently?
Is the boss aggroing the DDs or running around like its got a short attention span?
If so, we got ourselves a fake tank.

I main a tank. I know what the boss mechanics are. I know what it looks like when a boss does a scripted attack and then turns back on the tank because its taunted. I even know what to look for to make sure someone else isn't overtaunting the boss.

It ain't hard to figure out when the "tank" isn't actually taunting the boss even before I ask about it in group chat and they get snotty about being expected to do the role they queued up for.

Contaminate · January 2020

Royaji wrote: »

Contaminate wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

thadjarvis wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

So, to my understanding then, according to this thread, healers are useless and/or obsolete. SO, if I want to be carried through a dungeon, I should queue as healer then? Because I’m not costing the group anything right?

Healers are not useless at all. In coordinated groups they effectively provide more damage than a DD through buffs/debuffs (in trials bc of scaling 1 healer to 4 DD vs 1 to 2 in dungeon). We are support and should allocate to buffs, CC, synergy spam, healing, and damage based on group and content needs with is not always (in fact rarely) the same even within an instance. General healer builds and general expectations of "healers" without context doesn't make much sense.

On should you queue as a healer. I would say what role can you full-fill. If we're talking most base game dungeons, the requirement for a healer would probably just be a class burst heal and maybe a HoT if the group is really green. Thus, if you are magika toon or stamina with Echoing Vigor and/or bone shield you'd qualify imo. Moreover, if you can do that but you don't know how to tank or if you've been in a base game dungeon run that failed due to not enough damage in the recent past, then the best role for the group's success would be healer.

How does the arithmetic on that work?
Minor Berserk should add >5% to DPS when it's up.

Major Courage should usually add between 3 and 4% to DPS when it's up, depending on people's effective spell power and so on.

How do you figure the value of sustain buffs? (Ignoring the fact that Magickasteal is technically a debuff.)

How do you figure the value of saving teammates the trouble of healing themselves?

Are you assuming Warhorn?

Anything else? (Note: Some class-specific group buffs could come just as easily from a DD.)

Minor Berserk adds 8% damage done to everyone

Major Courage adds 256 weapon/spell damage, ~10% of the typical total weapon/spell damages

Minor Fracture/Breach (assuming Templar) takes out another 1,320 enemy resistances

Maintains Off-Balance uptimes for the CP star bonus (10% increased damage while Off-Balance)

Provides approx. 198 regen/s of each dps’ primary stat (either orb morph, or shards)

Saves the dps the trouble of slotting a self heal, meaning another damage skill on their bar.

Major Courage, Minor Berserk, and a good Off-Balance uptime will boost group dps of 50k up to 60k and let it go for the most part uninterrupted because the healing offsets ambient damage. The healer can pop on 10-15k dps on top of that.

So, a good healer brings 25k group dps to an average dps group, nearly 200 regen/s to all group members, and provides the ability to deal all that damage with minimal disruptions.

As the dps get better, a healer adds even more to group damage, but if ambient damage is low, then bringing another dps makes sense.

All of that implies that your DDs are capable of doing more than 30k DPS. And this is just not the case in most groupfinder groups.

Buffs and all that shizz are great. If you have something to buff to begin with.

Hence why I have a setup for damage in case I notice the dps are hopeless.

If I get a good group, which is not particularly rare when there’s no event going on, then I’ll focus more on the buffs. In the case both dps were hoping for a carry through vet content they have no business in, I’ll votekick or simply leave and requeue.

ForzaRammer · January 2020

idk wrote: »

.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

It’s just you definition. Not commonly accepted fact.
And what is the bare minimum for dps doesn’t matters anyways.

You talk like bare minimum tank should be matched with bare minimum dps, that’s just a load of bs. There are tons of average dps waiting in que.

Bare minimum tank deserve at least average dps just because tanks are rare. And sub 10k dps deserves wiping with fake tank.

Wow, Holy put words into my mouth here. Please to not make such false comments as it is clear I never suggested bare minimum tanks should be paired with bare minimum dps.

However, I will say if someone chooses to have the GF pair them with random players they are asking for the possibility for being paired with bare minimum players. Best way to avoid that is form your own group. Going that direction is why I rarely have an issue with vet DLC
dungeons.

Edit: This is also why decent tanks do not queue solo in the GF. We prefer to run with solid players so we form our own group or join in on them from our raiding guilds. Yes, bad dps is an issue, I do not deny that but a true fake tank is more of an issue as the not only cannot perform the most basic function of their role but they are generally not good dps either.

You talk like form your own group works great. Which is an over-estimation. It’s an improvement not a complete solution.

It requires people be honest to you when you recruit, but about 1/4 of the players respond lie about their dps. Half of liars are complete potatoes.

Only about 1/4 dps i get from group finder are complete potatoes. The improvement is simply not enough.

The above are my observations. And it is not event time numbers.

Here is my take. ‘A person should expect bare minimum from group finder’ is just encouraging adverse selection. Adverse selection will make the average quality worse over time. And it’s already the case i try to avoid these potatoes they actively seeking to leech.

My suggestion stop the adverse selection by actually kicking them. The less payoff they get from leeching, the less like they will attempt leeching in the future.

zvavi · January 2020

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

It’s just you definition. Not commonly accepted fact.
And what is the bare minimum for dps doesn’t matters anyways.

You talk like bare minimum tank should be matched with bare minimum dps, that’s just a load of bs. There are tons of average dps waiting in que.

Bare minimum tank deserve at least average dps just because tanks are rare. And sub 10k dps deserves wiping with fake tank.

Wow, Holy put words into my mouth here. Please to not make such false comments as it is clear I never suggested bare minimum tanks should be paired with bare minimum dps.

However, I will say if someone chooses to have the GF pair them with random players they are asking for the possibility for being paired with bare minimum players. Best way to avoid that is form your own group. Going that direction is why I rarely have an issue with vet DLC
dungeons.

Edit: This is also why decent tanks do not queue solo in the GF. We prefer to run with solid players so we form our own group or join in on them from our raiding guilds. Yes, bad dps is an issue, I do not deny that but a true fake tank is more of an issue as the not only cannot perform the most basic function of their role but they are generally not good dps either.

You talk like form your own group works great. Which is an over-estimation. It’s an improvement not a complete solution.

It requires people be honest to you when you recruit, but about 1/4 of the players respond lie about their dps. Half of liars are complete potatoes.

Only about 1/4 dps i get from group finder are complete potatoes. The improvement is simply not enough.

The above are my observations. And it is not event time numbers.

Here is my take. ‘A person should expect bare minimum from group finder’ is just encouraging adverse selection. Adverse selection will make the average quality worse over time. And it’s already the case i try to avoid these potatoes they actively seeking to leech.

My suggestion stop the adverse selection by actually kicking them. The less payoff they get from leeching, the less like they will attempt leeching in the future.

I mean, but what should be the bare minimum? 5k for normal dungeons, 12k for vet, 25k for vet dlc, 35k for newer vet dlc?

idk · January 2020

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

It’s just you definition. Not commonly accepted fact.
And what is the bare minimum for dps doesn’t matters anyways.

You talk like bare minimum tank should be matched with bare minimum dps, that’s just a load of bs. There are tons of average dps waiting in que.

Bare minimum tank deserve at least average dps just because tanks are rare. And sub 10k dps deserves wiping with fake tank.

Wow, Holy put words into my mouth here. Please to not make such false comments as it is clear I never suggested bare minimum tanks should be paired with bare minimum dps.

However, I will say if someone chooses to have the GF pair them with random players they are asking for the possibility for being paired with bare minimum players. Best way to avoid that is form your own group. Going that direction is why I rarely have an issue with vet DLC
dungeons.

Edit: This is also why decent tanks do not queue solo in the GF. We prefer to run with solid players so we form our own group or join in on them from our raiding guilds. Yes, bad dps is an issue, I do not deny that but a true fake tank is more of an issue as the not only cannot perform the most basic function of their role but they are generally not good dps either.

You talk like form your own group works great. Which is an over-estimation. It’s an improvement not a complete solution.

It requires people be honest to you when you recruit, but about 1/4 of the players respond lie about their dps. Half of liars are complete potatoes.

Only about 1/4 dps i get from group finder are complete potatoes. The improvement is simply not enough.

The above are my observations. And it is not event time numbers.

Here is my take. ‘A person should expect bare minimum from group finder’ is just encouraging adverse selection. Adverse selection will make the average quality worse over time. And it’s already the case i try to avoid these potatoes they actively seeking to leech.

My suggestion stop the adverse selection by actually kicking them. The less payoff they get from leeching, the less like they will attempt leeching in the future.

Join a raid guild. A decent raid guild has requirements for players to join. They have to have a minimal dps just to be in the guild unless they are tanks or healers and then they have to prove themselves for their roles.

Even beyond raiding guilds there are some decent social guilds that do not try to be clearing houses of nothing. I am in a social guild I joined when I returned to the game and I find they are decent players. While they are not the boss dps I find in my competitive guilds they do well and much better than the average player.

So yes, from both guilds it is an improvement over what I often found in a random GF group. Night and day difference even when comparing GF randomes to that social guild. Probably because those who have worked to join such guilds know they it is worth those few moments to form from guild rather than deal with those who have GF form their guilds.

Simple solutions often work great and that is the case here.

Spartycuss · January 2020

Lol it is true. I was in a group with a fake tank with lower health than I, and a fake healer that applied 0 heals...I took over in the healing department and we made it through imperial prison. Was kinda fun now that I think about it, but I wouldn't wanna do that all the time.

ForzaRammer · January 2020

zvavi wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

It’s just you definition. Not commonly accepted fact.
And what is the bare minimum for dps doesn’t matters anyways.

You talk like bare minimum tank should be matched with bare minimum dps, that’s just a load of bs. There are tons of average dps waiting in que.

Bare minimum tank deserve at least average dps just because tanks are rare. And sub 10k dps deserves wiping with fake tank.

Wow, Holy put words into my mouth here. Please to not make such false comments as it is clear I never suggested bare minimum tanks should be paired with bare minimum dps.

However, I will say if someone chooses to have the GF pair them with random players they are asking for the possibility for being paired with bare minimum players. Best way to avoid that is form your own group. Going that direction is why I rarely have an issue with vet DLC
dungeons.

Edit: This is also why decent tanks do not queue solo in the GF. We prefer to run with solid players so we form our own group or join in on them from our raiding guilds. Yes, bad dps is an issue, I do not deny that but a true fake tank is more of an issue as the not only cannot perform the most basic function of their role but they are generally not good dps either.

You talk like form your own group works great. Which is an over-estimation. It’s an improvement not a complete solution.

It requires people be honest to you when you recruit, but about 1/4 of the players respond lie about their dps. Half of liars are complete potatoes.

Only about 1/4 dps i get from group finder are complete potatoes. The improvement is simply not enough.

The above are my observations. And it is not event time numbers.

Here is my take. ‘A person should expect bare minimum from group finder’ is just encouraging adverse selection. Adverse selection will make the average quality worse over time. And it’s already the case i try to avoid these potatoes they actively seeking to leech.

My suggestion stop the adverse selection by actually kicking them. The less payoff they get from leeching, the less like they will attempt leeching in the future.

I mean, but what should be the bare minimum? 5k for normal dungeons, 12k for vet, 25k for vet dlc, 35k for newer vet dlc?

It’s not important. You should ask what is average. Anyone who does less 1/2 of the average deserve to be kicked.

ForzaRammer · January 2020

idk wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

It’s just you definition. Not commonly accepted fact.
And what is the bare minimum for dps doesn’t matters anyways.

You talk like bare minimum tank should be matched with bare minimum dps, that’s just a load of bs. There are tons of average dps waiting in que.

Bare minimum tank deserve at least average dps just because tanks are rare. And sub 10k dps deserves wiping with fake tank.

Wow, Holy put words into my mouth here. Please to not make such false comments as it is clear I never suggested bare minimum tanks should be paired with bare minimum dps.

However, I will say if someone chooses to have the GF pair them with random players they are asking for the possibility for being paired with bare minimum players. Best way to avoid that is form your own group. Going that direction is why I rarely have an issue with vet DLC
dungeons.

Edit: This is also why decent tanks do not queue solo in the GF. We prefer to run with solid players so we form our own group or join in on them from our raiding guilds. Yes, bad dps is an issue, I do not deny that but a true fake tank is more of an issue as the not only cannot perform the most basic function of their role but they are generally not good dps either.

You talk like form your own group works great. Which is an over-estimation. It’s an improvement not a complete solution.

It requires people be honest to you when you recruit, but about 1/4 of the players respond lie about their dps. Half of liars are complete potatoes.

Only about 1/4 dps i get from group finder are complete potatoes. The improvement is simply not enough.

The above are my observations. And it is not event time numbers.

Here is my take. ‘A person should expect bare minimum from group finder’ is just encouraging adverse selection. Adverse selection will make the average quality worse over time. And it’s already the case i try to avoid these potatoes they actively seeking to leech.

My suggestion stop the adverse selection by actually kicking them. The less payoff they get from leeching, the less like they will attempt leeching in the future.

Join a raid guild. A decent raid guild has requirements for players to join. They have to have a minimal dps just to be in the guild unless they are tanks or healers and then they have to prove themselves for their roles.

Even beyond raiding guilds there are some decent social guilds that do not try to be clearing houses of nothing. I am in a social guild I joined when I returned to the game and I find they are decent players. While they are not the boss dps I find in my competitive guilds they do well and much better than the average player.

So yes, from both guilds it is an improvement over what I often found in a random GF group. Night and day difference even when comparing GF randomes to that social guild. Probably because those who have worked to join such guilds know they it is worth those few moments to form from guild rather than deal with those who have GF form their guilds.

Simple solutions often work great and that is the case here.

I already said it is an improvement but not one big enough.

The problem with high tier guild: most of them too small to have nuf ppl online.

The problem with big guild: only cut down potatoes proportion by half instead of reduce to almost 0.

And why should it be the case capable players get discouraged from using group finder tool?

I believe sub par players should be discouraged to use it. It’s in most players’ interest to make group finder pug better.

zvavi · January 2020

ForzaRammer wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

It’s just you definition. Not commonly accepted fact.
And what is the bare minimum for dps doesn’t matters anyways.

You talk like bare minimum tank should be matched with bare minimum dps, that’s just a load of bs. There are tons of average dps waiting in que.

Bare minimum tank deserve at least average dps just because tanks are rare. And sub 10k dps deserves wiping with fake tank.

Wow, Holy put words into my mouth here. Please to not make such false comments as it is clear I never suggested bare minimum tanks should be paired with bare minimum dps.

However, I will say if someone chooses to have the GF pair them with random players they are asking for the possibility for being paired with bare minimum players. Best way to avoid that is form your own group. Going that direction is why I rarely have an issue with vet DLC
dungeons.

Edit: This is also why decent tanks do not queue solo in the GF. We prefer to run with solid players so we form our own group or join in on them from our raiding guilds. Yes, bad dps is an issue, I do not deny that but a true fake tank is more of an issue as the not only cannot perform the most basic function of their role but they are generally not good dps either.

You talk like form your own group works great. Which is an over-estimation. It’s an improvement not a complete solution.

It requires people be honest to you when you recruit, but about 1/4 of the players respond lie about their dps. Half of liars are complete potatoes.

Only about 1/4 dps i get from group finder are complete potatoes. The improvement is simply not enough.

The above are my observations. And it is not event time numbers.

Here is my take. ‘A person should expect bare minimum from group finder’ is just encouraging adverse selection. Adverse selection will make the average quality worse over time. And it’s already the case i try to avoid these potatoes they actively seeking to leech.

My suggestion stop the adverse selection by actually kicking them. The less payoff they get from leeching, the less like they will attempt leeching in the future.

I mean, but what should be the bare minimum? 5k for normal dungeons, 12k for vet, 25k for vet dlc, 35k for newer vet dlc?

It’s not important. You should ask what is average. Anyone who does less 1/2 of the average deserve to be kicked.

As a person that did many random normals as a tank in the past week, no thanks. average is too low.

ForzaRammer · January 2020

zvavi wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

It’s just you definition. Not commonly accepted fact.
And what is the bare minimum for dps doesn’t matters anyways.

You talk like bare minimum tank should be matched with bare minimum dps, that’s just a load of bs. There are tons of average dps waiting in que.

Bare minimum tank deserve at least average dps just because tanks are rare. And sub 10k dps deserves wiping with fake tank.

Wow, Holy put words into my mouth here. Please to not make such false comments as it is clear I never suggested bare minimum tanks should be paired with bare minimum dps.

However, I will say if someone chooses to have the GF pair them with random players they are asking for the possibility for being paired with bare minimum players. Best way to avoid that is form your own group. Going that direction is why I rarely have an issue with vet DLC
dungeons.

Edit: This is also why decent tanks do not queue solo in the GF. We prefer to run with solid players so we form our own group or join in on them from our raiding guilds. Yes, bad dps is an issue, I do not deny that but a true fake tank is more of an issue as the not only cannot perform the most basic function of their role but they are generally not good dps either.

You talk like form your own group works great. Which is an over-estimation. It’s an improvement not a complete solution.

It requires people be honest to you when you recruit, but about 1/4 of the players respond lie about their dps. Half of liars are complete potatoes.

Only about 1/4 dps i get from group finder are complete potatoes. The improvement is simply not enough.

The above are my observations. And it is not event time numbers.

Here is my take. ‘A person should expect bare minimum from group finder’ is just encouraging adverse selection. Adverse selection will make the average quality worse over time. And it’s already the case i try to avoid these potatoes they actively seeking to leech.

My suggestion stop the adverse selection by actually kicking them. The less payoff they get from leeching, the less like they will attempt leeching in the future.

I mean, but what should be the bare minimum? 5k for normal dungeons, 12k for vet, 25k for vet dlc, 35k for newer vet dlc?

It’s not important. You should ask what is average. Anyone who does less 1/2 of the average deserve to be kicked.

As a person that did many random normals as a tank in the past week, no thanks. average is too low.

I have no problem with kicking more subpar players. Go for it.

Ps: event time average is lower. I should specify ‘normal average’.

zvavi · January 2020

ForzaRammer wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

ForzaRammer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

idk wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

tbh you can 3 dps, 1 tank all vet dungeons. So idk

True and great for when one forms their own group. I have cleared vet DLCs on HM without a dedicated healer but the fact is some players need a dedicated trinity for many normal dungeons. That is if we are truly being honest.

The fank tanks and healers are lying and TBH the fake tanks I have seen are almost fake DPS so they do not deserve to play out their rouge. After all, if they were a decent player they would easily be able to group with others.

Plain and simple, groups should just kick them

The same standard should be held to DPS who can't hit anything above 25k (which can be done by simply light attacking) - is it logical to apply a double standard to "fake tanks" and "fake healers" if we're not going to hold some sort of standard to DPS?

That is not the same standard. Not even in the same realm.

The basic standard for being a tank is to have a taunt. If they do not have a taunt or do not use it they are not even pretending to be a tank.
The basic standard for being a healer is to have a heal they can use to heal others. Without one they are clearly fake.

Without that they are fake and lying about their abilities.

What you are suggesting much more than basic dps, absurdly so. LOL, many vet trials can be done with that much dps and we are talking about dungeons which most if not all can get by with less.

But again, the simple solution to all this, the smartest solution, is form your own group. A decent enough player can get into a decent guild which makes it easy to form a group (or find groups being formed) and set your own requirements. It is what a great many of us do and allows us to avoid these petty little issues.

If you're a damage dealer and does less damage than a dedicated healer or tank, you're not fulfilling your role and I would almost consider you a fake dd due to that. You're not a DD just because your intentions are there to do damage, you've as much responsibility to fulfill the role as the tank or healer.

But then again, I'm not complaining about what role people que for with the dungeon finder, and neither should others. Deal with what you get, leave the group or make your own. That's the reality people should deal with.

Not really. Not at all.

If they are doing damage they are performing their basic function by definition whereas a fake tank or fake hearer cannot even try to do their most basic function by definition. Lightyears apart.

There is a big difference between being fake and being bad. At least one is honest and the other just lies. When I have seen a fake tank they were pretty bad overall which is probably why they cannot find people to regularly run with.

It’s just you definition. Not commonly accepted fact.
And what is the bare minimum for dps doesn’t matters anyways.

You talk like bare minimum tank should be matched with bare minimum dps, that’s just a load of bs. There are tons of average dps waiting in que.

Bare minimum tank deserve at least average dps just because tanks are rare. And sub 10k dps deserves wiping with fake tank.

Wow, Holy put words into my mouth here. Please to not make such false comments as it is clear I never suggested bare minimum tanks should be paired with bare minimum dps.

However, I will say if someone chooses to have the GF pair them with random players they are asking for the possibility for being paired with bare minimum players. Best way to avoid that is form your own group. Going that direction is why I rarely have an issue with vet DLC
dungeons.

Edit: This is also why decent tanks do not queue solo in the GF. We prefer to run with solid players so we form our own group or join in on them from our raiding guilds. Yes, bad dps is an issue, I do not deny that but a true fake tank is more of an issue as the not only cannot perform the most basic function of their role but they are generally not good dps either.

You talk like form your own group works great. Which is an over-estimation. It’s an improvement not a complete solution.

It requires people be honest to you when you recruit, but about 1/4 of the players respond lie about their dps. Half of liars are complete potatoes.

Only about 1/4 dps i get from group finder are complete potatoes. The improvement is simply not enough.

The above are my observations. And it is not event time numbers.

Here is my take. ‘A person should expect bare minimum from group finder’ is just encouraging adverse selection. Adverse selection will make the average quality worse over time. And it’s already the case i try to avoid these potatoes they actively seeking to leech.

My suggestion stop the adverse selection by actually kicking them. The less payoff they get from leeching, the less like they will attempt leeching in the future.

I mean, but what should be the bare minimum? 5k for normal dungeons, 12k for vet, 25k for vet dlc, 35k for newer vet dlc?

It’s not important. You should ask what is average. Anyone who does less 1/2 of the average deserve to be kicked.

As a person that did many random normals as a tank in the past week, no thanks. average is too low.

I have no problem with kicking more subpar players. Go for it.

I don't kick usually, i don't have the heart to do so, but when i do try to kick (heavy attacking frost staff dds) it fails. Also, how are tanks supposed to do normal dungeons then, solo?