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this undaunted event has a rise in fake healers.
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danara✭✭✭i cant remember the last time i queued as dps on my dps i always queue as a healer even on vDLC and havent had any problems or complaints cus even with 3 dps i usually pull 50%+ of the dps so things die before anyone asks "do we have a healer?"
on a side-note ive recently taken up tanking and i MUCH prefer fake healers
pls keep going with fake healers xD it s awfull to play with a fake tank, dps drop because boss is running eveywwhere, most of the time it is the true healer who take aggro and you dont have enough stamina to survive for an all fight
people need the tank but they dont need healer1 -
Nordic__Knights✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lol bro i had an healer with an bow lol lol lol we did no death just fine 😆 😆 😆 you DONT NEED healing in non dlc dungeons0 -
redlink1979✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭People who queue on vet dungeons as fake tanks they're the ones who really annoy me."Sweet Mother, sweet Mother, send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"- Sons of the Night Mother | VforVendetta | Grownups Gaming EU | English Elders [PS][EU] 2500 CP
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- Bacon Rats | Silverlight Brotherhood | Canis Root Tea Party | Vincula Doloris [PC][NA] 2300 CP
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daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Gotta laugh about this "fake dds" thing. You realise being bad at the game is not the same thing as queuing for a role you don't intend to fulfil, right? Bad dd is the same as a bad healer or a bad tank. Now if a DD started taunting or healing instead of doing damage, then I'd say you have a fake dd.
For better or worse, ESO forms groups with 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 dds. If you choose one of these roles for a random group, and unless you clear it with your group first, I'd say do your role and shut up.4 -
LadySinflower✭✭✭✭✭Right, here we go again! "Most dungeons don't need healers so what's your problem?" Maybe YOU don't want/need a healer, but you are not me or the other three guys in your dungeon group.
I grouped with a married couple, friends of mine who mostly run with each other and don't socialize with other players. Problem? All 3 of us are dps, and very inexperienced with 90% of the dungeons. So I asked them, did they want an actual tank or healer in our group. They voted for the healer.
I told them one of us would have to queue as a tank to get the game to group us with a healer. I had my headset on and said that when we queued in, before we did anything, we had to tell our new group member that we were 3 dps's and had no actual tank. We had to give them the opportunity to decide whether or not to play with our group.
So at this point do you think I was trying to be a fake tank? The person we got in our group was the perfect complement to the 3 of us. After I explained the situation to him, he said he could act as a hybrid tank/healer as long as we stuck to less complicated dungeons. We went on to clear 4 dungeons, 3 on vet, 2 on vet hard mode. This guy was amazing to play with. He stepped up to lead 3 noobs and was very generous with advice and help. He was just who we needed and agreed to group with us again.
What's my point in telling this story? You can't always assume the intentions of the other players in your group. You may think that guy is a fake healer when he is actually a learning healer trying to get the hang of how to heal.
My BF is one such person. He's inexperienced as a healer but queues as one anyway. He has his headset on and tries to talk to every group but more often than not nobody is on comms. They start the usual RUN RUN RUN SPRINT SPRINT through the dungeon, often leaving my BF behind because he's unfamiliar with the dungeon. Then they get mad and kick him. He gets called a fake healer often. Only after running ahead in the dungeon and refusing to even type hello do they communicate, saying negative things and acting angry. Talk to your teammates, folks! That will go a long way in assessing the needs of your group and setting up a positive dynamic! If you have an inexperienced support person it's your choice to play with them or not. Why not have a conversation at the beginning to set expectations and make decisions?
People who are just learning support roles are not all there to screw you out of your no death run. If that's what you're looking for maybe you should be playing with guild mates. Take 30 seconds to talk when you first queue in so you know where everybody stands. That gives you the opportunity to run with the noob or not, but at least you're parting amicably.
Anyway, sorry this is so long.
TL;DR: Take 30 seconds to chat with your group at the beginning of dungeons so you know where everybody stands in skill level and can make reasonable decisions to go ahead and run with them or not. Nobody starts out as an expert.Edited by LadySinflower on January 13, 2020 1:53PM4 -
danara✭✭✭LadySinflower wrote: »Right, here we go again! "Most dungeons don't need healers so what's your problem?" Maybe YOU don't want/need a healer, but you are not me or the other three guys in your dungeon group.
I grouped with a married couple, friends of mine who mostly run with each other and don't socialize with other players. Problem? All 3 of us are dps, and very inexperienced with 90% of the dungeons. So I asked them, did they want an actual tank or healer in our group. They voted for the healer.
I told them one of us would have to queue as a tank to get the game to group us with a healer. I had my headset on and said that when we queued in, before we did anything, we had to tell our new group member that we were 3 dps's and had no actual tank. We had to give them the opportunity to decide whether or not to play with our group.
So at this point do you think I was trying to be a fake tank? The person we got in our group was the perfect complement to the 3 of us. After I explained the situation to him, he said he could act as a hybrid tank/healer as long as we stuck to less complicated dungeons. We went on to clear 4 dungeons, 3 on vet, 2 on vet hard mode. This guy was amazing to play with. He stepped up to lead 3 noobs and was very generous with advice and help. He was just who we needed and agreed to group with us again.
What's my point in telling this story? You can't always assume the intentions of the other players in your group. You may think that guy is a fake healer when he is actually a learning healer trying to get the hang of how to heal.
My BF is one such person. He's inexperienced as a healer but queues as one anyway. He has his headset on and tries to talk to every group but more often than not nobody is on comms. They start the usual RUN RUN RUN SPRINT SPRINT through the dungeon, often leaving my BF behind because he's unfamiliar with the dungeon. Then they get mad and kick him. He gets called a fake healer often. Only after running ahead in the dungeon and refusing to even type hello do they communicate, saying negative things and acting angry. Talk to your teammates, folks! That will go a long way in assessing the needs of your group and setting up a positive dynamic! If you have an inexperienced support person it's your choice to play with them or not. Why not have a conversation at the beginning to set expectations and make decisions?
People who are just learning support roles are not all there to screw you out of your no death run. If that's what you're looking for maybe you should be playing with guild mates. Take 30 seconds to talk when you first queue in so you know where everybody stands. That gives you the opportunity to run with the noob or not, but at least you're parting amicably.
Anyway, sorry this is so long.
TL;DR: Take 30 seconds to chat with your group at the beginning of dungeons so you know where everybody stands in skill level and can make reasonable decisions to go ahead and run with them or not. Nobody starts out as an expert.
Nobody here trash talked the learning healers. Anyway, i dont know how you could learn to heal in PU dungeon group, only because you ll do nothing... even to an UNEXPERIEMENTED TANK you just have to keep right click on and you will survive (oh and refresh aggro every 12 sec, cant remember the duration)
No body will take damage, if DD take damage, they are dead that s how it work, even a BAD tank have a better life regen than the damage he is taking...
Now what i find funny is, you crying about people queing with a FAKE ROLE when (and you said it your self) : All 3 of us are dps and then one of us would have to queue as a tank. Why people shouldnt do what you are doing?
You are inexperienced? An advice, next time queue as a healer, oh but the tank will just leave the group because let me tell you something, there is nothing, and i say NOTHING more annoying to a TANK or a HEALER than a group on 3 DD that do the same damage as an ASMATHIC MOLD. You are already useless to the group and now you have to be 1 hour in the first dunjeon in the game?
If you are inexperimented, just go with 2 dd 1 tank one 1 healer, dont go with 3 dd and expected the other guy to do TWO DIFFERENT ROLE when you dont want to do YOURS.
An other thing : We had to give them the opportunity to decide whether or not to play with our group => you give him the choice to stay or wait 20 minutes doing nothing because he left the group.
There is plenty of people willing to help all new player if you ask in zone chat, but what you are doing is selfish. And with what you just said i am sorry but i disagree, you just cannot complain.2 -
cheifsoap✭✭✭✭✭Just so we don't create a double standard
Tanks - Have taunt; I suggest back barring S&B
Healers - Have some sort of heal, you only need 1 though
DPS - Do what you do and be a potato and "try to DPS"0 -
Reverb✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭gatekeeper13 wrote: »Fake healers should be instant kick. Period.
What’s your success rate at getting a vote passed?Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche1 -
SpacemanSpiff1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Gotta laugh about this "fake dds" thing. You realise being bad at the game is not the same thing as queuing for a role you don't intend to fulfil, right? Bad dd is the same as a bad healer or a bad tank. Now if a DD started taunting or healing instead of doing damage, then I'd say you have a fake dd.
For better or worse, ESO forms groups with 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 dds. If you choose one of these roles for a random group, and unless you clear it with your group first, I'd say do your role and shut up.
agreed.
If people are depending on the group finder to fill their group, they should do at least the bare minimum to fulfill the role they signed up for.0 -
DR4GONFL1✭✭✭✭Can't understand this post. You shouldn't need a healer for any of these dungeons just slot your own self heals or group heals and bring a tank if you need one. If your running 12 man trials then yes you need healer. I run these with friends mainly but when I can't i'll try queue in once but if you have honestly tried to queue in as a solo dps you rarely get in a group so I will give it about ten minutes and then I'm your new dps healer. I'll even heal you here and there but I'm not waiting 45 minutes or more to do a vet dungeon...0 -
LadySinflower✭✭✭✭✭seems people are falsely queuing as roles they cant fufill, got into black heart haven only to have the crown turn out to be a fake healer with no interest in keeping any of us alive.
Depends what no interest means.
Yesterday I had this DPS running ahead all the time, on trash and bosses. After 5 minutes I decided that I had enough of running after him and stuck with the tank and other DPS while he was dieing. Then the insults came in: I was the worst healer in the world because I wasn't keeping Mr-Look-At-My-(carried)-Rare-Titles alive.
Because thats what you do when you and your team is experienced. You pull all the trash since most of DOTs are AOE abilities and why use AOE on single mobs if you can kill 20 of them in the same ammount of time? He only made mistake of overestimating his teammates. Thats why I run a proper self-healing and shields on my DDs in PUGs and I lower my DPS roof on purpose by the occasion.
Yeah but isn't the tank supposed to be the one running ahead dragging all the mobs? Not the dps? That's what the last tank I played with did. He would say "ok I'm going to drag everybody here to the next boss," and I'd get my ultimate ready to surround them as we arrived. Forget the name, but that ultimate can one-shot a lot of low-hp trash. Once it killed the trash we dealt with the boss. It worked.1 -
ForzaRammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just so we don't create a double standard
Tanks - Have taunt; I suggest back barring S&B
Healers - Have some sort of heal, you only need 1 though
DPS - Do what you do and be a potato and "try to DPS"
You can set bare minimum, but even bare minimum tanks are rare enough they deserve at least average dps1 -
MEBengalsFan2001✭✭✭✭✭All mmos have this issue. Many DPS players realize they get into a Q quicker as a DPS. I play mainly as a healer. I even played some Vet dungeons this weekend. No deaths in any of my runs as a healer in Vet dungeons but in regular ones every run it seemed like a dps died because they ran ahead or stayed outside of my healing range and they kept wondering why they died. I mean if you are outside of my healing range, running ahead or not, you can't expect my heals to hit you and keep your health up or capped.
I got some nasty in game tells and my rule is I follow the tank. I can solo most lower dungeons.
This game isn't hard but it is fun given all the buffs and debuffs I can apply which is my preferred play style, being a buffer vs. straight up healer.0 -
Blood_again✭✭✭✭✭Farming all four event HMs as 4dd PUG was fun. Finally I got nodeath in Blessed (god why my premade group members always failed there?!). Trust me, these vets need no healer if group knows what to do. It's about all nonDLC.
Normals don't need healer too, as you could guess. If you see that random group is weak, you can choose which role you play by situation.
I went to RND all the event time as healer slotting spring and regen with healing staff (mana-NB). Half times there was low group dps, so I just switched to dd and burned the mobs before anybody died. Other times I healed on group mistakes and filled some dmg to make things faster (ult/execute on boss, wall on stack) but saving some mana for rapid heal. That healing happened enough for nMaarselok for instance
Am I a fake healer? Definitely yes, cos I dmgd 30 (with healing) to 80 (pure dmg) percents of group.
Were my group members annoyed? I doubt it, cos I worked with them. Not against or despite them.
So a fake healer isn't always a worst thing
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thadjarvis✭✭✭✭It was funny last night several times we qued as (real) tank, healer, DD and (real) tank, DD, DD. The later was actually popping quicker which can only mean there were more players queuing as solo healers than solo DD. Never seen that before. That's a lot of "Fake" healers lol.
Though "Fake" healer gets a really bad rap though. In base game dungeons when I sign up as healer on say a Trial CP/setted healer I'm pretty much useless. If I do it on a real DD, I simply slot one heal, mystic orb, and keep everyone alive (save one-shots on DDs, tank deaths, or prolonged standing in the red choices) I don't understand the issue. The only comments I've gotten in actual PUGs have been positive as the run was faster. Spending 95% of resources on over-healing just doesn't seem to make sense to me.
"Healers" in this game are not healers. They are support to enhance the group allocating resources to whatever is needed: damage, healing, tanking, whatever. That's the job of a "Healer" when I sign up as one. It's always a mystery what I'll actually be doing, but that's the job.2 -
Kelces✭✭✭✭✭LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »LadyNalcarya wrote: »It seems, it's always the same response one gets from opening a thread like this: "hey, I did this with only dps!" or "I can solo vet Dungeons!" etc.
I play every role and I get those statements and I managed to do similar things and it can be a nice challenge, but that's not the point of this game.
Teamplay, which is what both the tank and healer role are about, compared to DPS is discouraged on a wide basis. So much for PvE not being problematic, or even toxic at times. I think, that speaks volumes...
I wouldn't say that teamplay is discouraged, it is actually required for dlc content.
It's just hard to find it in pugs.
Well, I am. Review the comments and see what is being said...
Since DPS is only looking on their meter - I rarely see them revive others or use tactical morphs like "venom arrow" or "crushing shock" - what else should I think of it?
I don't think that average pug is looking at their dps meter at all, if they cared about it, fake dd problem would've been solved. It's not always their fault, of course - group content in ESO is very dps-focused but at the same time the game doesn't tell that to new players and doesn't teach them.
And yes, there are a few instances where crushing shock is nice to have, but it's unwise to remorph your poison injection just for interrupts when you are just doing a quick random normal to get event tickets.
So it is only about damage after all...
It actually is, objectively. ESO dungeons are created like this and with so many fake dds every bit of damage helps. On the other hand, there's only a few situaions that require crushing shock, and I personally wouldnt recommend pugging vAS+poison boss anyway.
And before you start, I'm not saying that you don't need to pay attention to the mechanics etc. But dps makes a world of difference.
Which proves my point about the general mentality, which is: DPS meter > all. Even though players who could do decent damage, would do so with either morphs.
Yeah, but why would they suddenly have to re-morph it to pug? Doesnt make sense to me. Randomly spamming interrupt doesnt make you a team player.
And it's not about players mentality. I've said this already, but the game is very dps-centric when it comes to group content. Blame the developers if you don't like it, I'm personally not a fan of it either, but that's how it is.
They can keep the "suboptimal" morphs, remorph is not needed for those who are capable, that's how it actually is. I am not blaiming the developers, because there is no need for it in this case. It's peer pressure by players who make it seem, as if there is no other way and you are reinforcing that illusion.
Those who are capable can just bash the mob when its channeling something. It's weird that you chose this very situational thing instead of something like mystic orbs (since not every pug healer will run them).
But anyway. I've been playing as healer for years, and I'm pretty sure that low dps drastically reduces group's chances of success and this is not an illusion. And I don't think there's any peer pressure when it comes to dps in pugs. Can't expect the majority of players to have addons and practice their rotations.
You make it seem as if choosing something you don't approve of, as being the cause of "low dps" (meaning really poor), which is ridiculous. Just as the mention of "spamming X", which is ridiculous and I never mentioned, but I guess it is desperation. By "capable" I meant damage-wise not about interrupt-bashing, another weird assumption - It's not always possible to be in melee range btw. There is only a single-digit percentage of DPS loss for those who know how to DPS and that should still be enough for demanding folk like you.
Maybe you should try tank aswell, then you could appreciate the breathing room a bit more that someone gets you by various tactical abilities this game provides. And just to make it clear: I am not the one forcing or demanding anyone to choose anything I am talking about.
Use that for an analogy: Wouldn't it be weird, to have two tanks in a trial and both wear the Ebony set for example as the group are all standing together? That's what I mean, just encourage a little bit of variety.You reveal yourself best in how you play.
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For the Pact!0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
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This, as yes its an very pro way to clear dungeons. downside is that you need to make sure all in group understand it and you have enough group dps to burn all the adds fast enough and enough healing to survive.LadySinflower wrote: »seems people are falsely queuing as roles they cant fufill, got into black heart haven only to have the crown turn out to be a fake healer with no interest in keeping any of us alive.
Depends what no interest means.
Yesterday I had this DPS running ahead all the time, on trash and bosses. After 5 minutes I decided that I had enough of running after him and stuck with the tank and other DPS while he was dieing. Then the insults came in: I was the worst healer in the world because I wasn't keeping Mr-Look-At-My-(carried)-Rare-Titles alive.
Because thats what you do when you and your team is experienced. You pull all the trash since most of DOTs are AOE abilities and why use AOE on single mobs if you can kill 20 of them in the same ammount of time? He only made mistake of overestimating his teammates. Thats why I run a proper self-healing and shields on my DDs in PUGs and I lower my DPS roof on purpose by the occasion.
Yeah but isn't the tank supposed to be the one running ahead dragging all the mobs? Not the dps? That's what the last tank I played with did. He would say "ok I'm going to drag everybody here to the next boss," and I'd get my ultimate ready to surround them as we arrived. Forget the name, but that ultimate can one-shot a lot of low-hp trash. Once it killed the trash we dealt with the boss. It worked.
You might want to burn trash before the last boss if group is not so strong. Also depending on boss location, you want to pull trash behind an corner get all the ranged units.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
luen79rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Some people are just bitter and jealus. During this event I got into a couple of dungeons. I was healing with just 1 heal, more than enough, everybody was fine and alive, but I was doing 60% of total DPS, I was still kicked, lmao such sad beings
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p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This again? I queued as a healer on my Stamplar, but I had a couple of skills that healed the group. People still died, but their inability to stay out of the stupid isn't my problem, and I usually didn't need their negligible dps anyway. Most of the dmg in dungeons is easily avoidable. If you feel you need a healer, I'd suggest turning on your combat queues and watching where you're standing more often. Also, slot a self heal.PC/Xbox NA
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xF1REFL1x✭✭✭We usually run without a healer in our groups as most of them were busy... it's more about learning the mechanics then anything. Most classes have a heal anyway. People are going to die... just make sure it's not your fault for standing in something or not blocking before you blame the tank or healer.0 -
Naftal✭✭✭✭✭They should make the default activity finder group setup three damage dealers and one support.2
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spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I did this and if my pet heal wasn't enough to keep people up and the group wipe, i just soloed the boss. I only ever truly healed on bosses that I couldn't solo. And those are only the ones with mechanics that don't let you. Nobody kicked me so I assume they didn't care.
I didn't queue randoms though because I know that vet dlc dungeons are a different thing.Edited by spartaxoxo on January 13, 2020 8:21PM0 -
Ragnarock41✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Nobody is supposed to sit there with a healing staff and babysit you take probably half an hour or more to clear blackheart haven. If you were a good dps you would speedrun that place, not come here to complain about blackheart haven of all the dungeons.
In other words, fake DDs cause the fake healer issue. IF the dungeon finder had a minimum DPS requirement suddenly many of these fake healers would disappear because one could actually play as DPS without waiting a full hour for a 5 to 10 minute dungeon run.
Edited by Ragnarock41 on January 13, 2020 10:26PM2 -
Taemiru✭✭✭I mean... if the game let us be relevant again...maybe people would stop queing as healer when they are not ?
If you cant stay alive on non dlc vet hm it s mostly not a healer problem just because every thing one shot you...
We are useless in most content, even in so trials you can do it with one dude playing as a semin healer semi dps...
I think you have a point about dungeon part where healers are not really needed, tho if your dps players are actually good healer is a very pleasant addition and there is a decent amount of people who would prefer a dedicated healer (so support set, orbs, ele dran, combat prayer and some other nice things) instead of 3rd dd in some harder dlc dungeons.
As for trials judging by what you are writing you must be an god amazing healer or never stepped into a vet trial harder than Craglorn, because being in endgame community i can be sure saying that there is a huge demand for good healers and most of groups would not be able to complete this content without whole two fully dedicated to healer job players, especially something like vSS or vCR+. Life might be hard for pure healer mains in terms of relevance in this game, but its surely not in veteran trial part.
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Radiance✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a REAL healer (lol) I've encountered more "Fake" Tanks and just Bad DPS than anything else but it's always the healers that get called out.
Some people need to learn how to work more strategically with healers in regards to positioning, I always get Mages and Bowmen standing the maximum possible distance away from the fight so if you end up dead bc you've removed yourself from my line of sight, that's your problem.
Slot a shield or a self heal or invest in some HP/Regen, you can't rely solely on the healer, take some responsibility for your own healthbar.
Don't Show up a Glass Cannon and blame everyone else when you die.
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Contaminate✭✭✭✭✭
✭Last night I queued as a tank on vDirefrost, encountered two fake dd’s and a polar wind hp healer with a frost staff, ok for healing but not much else.
Group dps was 15k with alkosh, perma fracture/breach, perma minor vul, and crusher. Trash pulls took two to three full minutes, the dps queue’d players aggrod mobs they didn’t need to. I was fine carrying them to the last boss, at which point they couldn’t get the boss below 90%hp. I told them it wasn’t possible to clear this boss with dps that low, they told me I was toxic and to go f myself and thankfully both left. We got two replacement dps and cleared it immediately after that.
TLDR, a fake healer is infinitely better than a sub 5k dps “dd”0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It's inevitable, because the queue for DPS is ridiculous.
Ended up going on foot, yesterday.
Can't really blame people (especially high CP people) for queueing for normals as healer, in this game, to be honest.
You don't really need a healer, for most dungeons, unless everyone is low level.0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭SidraWillowsky wrote: »Unless the group is totally hopless normal dungeons don't need healers, at least in my experience. I ran some dungeons on my low level toons with dps only groups and we managed just fine as long as we kept together and followed the mechanics.
It's not up to you to decide what a pug groups needs or doesn't need though...
ETA that if I'm grouped with a blatant fake healer who's not even trying, I'll vote to kick. If the vote doesn't go through, I'll go into turtle mode where I slot all of my self-heals and then throw out a light attack every so often. Gonna waste my time with your fake healer because you've made the unilateral decision that pug groups don't need a healer? I'll waste yours too by not DPSing.
Yeah and you'll probably be the one that gets kicked, if you do that, lol.
Look, in an ideal game, no one would queue as healer, if they were DPS.
However, this is not an ideal game - in fact, it is far from it.
So, if people know they can probably get by without a healer and the alternative is sitting in a queue for 3 hours, of course many will do it.
I don't queue as heals, but I might as well, as I can solo some of the Normal dungeons, anyway.0 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Also, slot a self heal.
I agree, but people may not be able to do that, yet, if they are very low level, of course.
At which point, if it is a group of very low levels, the fake healer will seem very selfish.
...but, then we come to other, possible, forms of selfishness.
Like people who have been playing for years, but only ever level new characters, endlessly and never play their max levels.
Meaning they end up being carried by others, permanently; even though they could return the favour, occasionally.
There are a lot of things that could be viewed as selfish, other than fake healers.
Another one would be people who could choose to slot a self heal, but don't, so they can brag about their massive DPS.
Even if that means they are dead most of the time, unless they get lucky with the random healer, or bring their own pet healer everywhere they go.
Then others would claim that not maximising DPS (because you have slotted a self heal) is selfish, as it may slow their speed runs down a bit.
Really depends which angle you are viewing it from...Edited by Tigerseye on January 14, 2020 2:00AM0
