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The rewards for vet DLC pledges are inconsistent with their difficulty
code65536
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This is the current reward structure for all pledges:
For the base-game pledges, the middle reward, in practice, does not exist. This is because the "Hard Mode" difficulty increase is modest to the point of negligibility. Essentially, if you are able to clear a base-game dungeon on Veteran, you are able to clear it on Veteran HM.
And the current reward structure is perfectly fine for the base game dungeons.
But there is a problem with the DLC dungeons, which are, without exception, more difficult than base-game dungeons. Furthermore, they are, without exception, more time-consuming, and this is true even for experienced groups: a group that can blitz through vDoM HM in 20 minutes can run through something like vArx HM in under 10 minutes.
But the bigger problem is that the DLC Hard Modes are actually hard, and this is especially true for all the dungeons released since 2018, when the dungeon team decided to further increase the non-HM and HM difficulty gap in order to give endgame players something to chew on. Personally, I love these new HMs, but it's also made the pledge reward structure seem pretty ridiculous.
Because the middle reward is so poor, there is really no incentive for people to run pledges on veteran non-HM. You either run it on normal for a quick single key, or you run it on vet HM for the full reward. But because the DLC dungeons are designed such that there is a substantial difference between vet non-HM and vet HM, that middle segment (capable of clearing vet but not vet HM) is much, much larger. The end result is that whenever I PUG pledges, people almost always do the DLC ones on normal for a single key. If they can't clear vet HM and are left to choose between normal and vet non-HM, then there's no reason to choose the latter when it offers almost the same reward for substantially more effort.
So here's what I suggest, specifically for DLC dungeons (i.e., leave the base-game pledge rewards unchanged):
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_RichLambert The most important change would be the change to the middle reward: This would give players more incentive to run DLC pledges on vet non-HM instead of normal. People who run the new DLC HMs are generally motivated by things other than keys, so the increase in the top reward, while nice, isn't as important as the buff to the middle reward to entice more of the mainstream to run vet. Again, for DLC dungeons, that middle segment of vet-capable but not HM-capable is substantial whereas it doesn't really exist for the base-game dungeons.
- Normal: 1 key, green geode
- Veteran: 1 key, blue uncracked geode
- Veteran HM: 2 keys, purple uncracked geode
For the base-game pledges, the middle reward, in practice, does not exist. This is because the "Hard Mode" difficulty increase is modest to the point of negligibility. Essentially, if you are able to clear a base-game dungeon on Veteran, you are able to clear it on Veteran HM.
And the current reward structure is perfectly fine for the base game dungeons.
But there is a problem with the DLC dungeons, which are, without exception, more difficult than base-game dungeons. Furthermore, they are, without exception, more time-consuming, and this is true even for experienced groups: a group that can blitz through vDoM HM in 20 minutes can run through something like vArx HM in under 10 minutes.
But the bigger problem is that the DLC Hard Modes are actually hard, and this is especially true for all the dungeons released since 2018, when the dungeon team decided to further increase the non-HM and HM difficulty gap in order to give endgame players something to chew on. Personally, I love these new HMs, but it's also made the pledge reward structure seem pretty ridiculous.
Because the middle reward is so poor, there is really no incentive for people to run pledges on veteran non-HM. You either run it on normal for a quick single key, or you run it on vet HM for the full reward. But because the DLC dungeons are designed such that there is a substantial difference between vet non-HM and vet HM, that middle segment (capable of clearing vet but not vet HM) is much, much larger. The end result is that whenever I PUG pledges, people almost always do the DLC ones on normal for a single key. If they can't clear vet HM and are left to choose between normal and vet non-HM, then there's no reason to choose the latter when it offers almost the same reward for substantially more effort.
So here's what I suggest, specifically for DLC dungeons (i.e., leave the base-game pledge rewards unchanged):
- Normal: 1 key, green geode (no change)
- Veteran: 2 keys, purple uncracked geode (all DLC vet non-HMs are harder than any base-game vet HM)
- Veteran HM: 3 keys, gold uncracked geode (the same daily geode reward found in PvP RftW coffers)
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_RichLambert The most important change would be the change to the middle reward: This would give players more incentive to run DLC pledges on vet non-HM instead of normal. People who run the new DLC HMs are generally motivated by things other than keys, so the increase in the top reward, while nice, isn't as important as the buff to the middle reward to entice more of the mainstream to run vet. Again, for DLC dungeons, that middle segment of vet-capable but not HM-capable is substantial whereas it doesn't really exist for the base-game dungeons.
Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:
Personal best scores:
Dungeon trifectas:
- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:
- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Event Collectibles ― Raidificator
Other Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― vHoF Status Panel ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information
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Tsar_Gekkou✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sounds good to me. It's just enough of a bump up to make things worthwhile, while not excessive enough for people to cry about there being too much loot.Xbox NA healer main
vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL HM | vHoF HM | vAS+2 | vCR+3 | vBRP | vSS HM | vKA HM | vRG HM |
Flawless Conqueror | Spirit Slayer | Dro-mA'thra Destroyer | Tick-Tock-Tormentor | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Godslayer | Dawnbringer | Planesbreaker |2 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Good in theory but do you really need more keys? I have over 1400 with nothing to spend them on. Anyone that can-do Vet HM DLC’s really should not need the extra key.
The geode is a good idea.0 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It's not about what we need as a reward at all, it's more of a way to easily populate vet pledges for ones who don't think can cope with hardmodes yet and just goes normal instead due to no difference in reward.4 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Good in theory but do you really need more keys? I have over 1400 with nothing to spend them on. Anyone that can-do Vet HM DLC’s really should not need the extra key.
As I wrote in my post, "People who run the new DLC HMs are generally motivated by things other than keys, so the increase in the top reward, while nice, isn't as important as the buff to the middle reward to entice more of the mainstream to run vet."
And, actually, a lot of people who can reliably do DLC HMs don't have a lot of keys because they spend all their time in trials and set foot in dungeons only to level Undaunted on a new character. Not everyone is like that, of course--I personally have a lot of keys--but it does describe a lot of people.
In any case, even if the third key isn't needed as an enticement for HM, it still makes sense to give an reward appropriate for the level of challenge posed by a DLC HM.Edited by code65536 on January 8, 2020 7:55AMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
Dungeons and Trials:Personal best scores:- Dragonstar Arena: 46817 (NA)
- Maelstrom Arena: 600526 (NA)
- Blackrose Prison: 99274 (EU) (Unchained)
- Maw of Lorkhaj: 165227 (EU)
- Halls of Fabrication: 220708 (NA) (Tick-Tock Tormentor #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12)
- Asylum Sanctorium: 114957 (NA) (Immortal Redeemer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10)
- Cloudrest: 131256 (NA) (Gryphon Heart #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7)
- Sunspire: 250866 (EU) (Godslayer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6)
- Kyne's Aegis: 235841 (EU) (Dawnbringer #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8)
Dungeon trifectas:- Mountain God and Leave No Bone Unbroken
- Apex Predator and Pure Lunacy
- Depths Defier and Relentless Raider
- Defanged the Devourer and Nature's Wrath
- In Defiance of Death and No Rest for the Wicked
- Bane of Thorns and True Genius
- Ardent Bibliophile and Subterranean Smasher
- Battlespire's Best and Bastion Breaker
- Zero Regrets and Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy
- Fist of Tava and Invader's Bane
- Curator's Champion (Valinna) and Temporal Tempest
- Unshakeable Fervor and Lighting the Embers
Extended Journal Add-Ons: Item Set Browser ― Loot Log ― Character Knowledge ― Event Collectibles ― RaidificatorOther Add-Ons: Combat Alerts ― Deconstruction Junk Marker ― Purge Tracker ― vHoF Status Panel ― Asylum Status Panel ― Smart Looter ― Improved Companion Rapport Information4 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Good in theory but do you really need more keys? I have over 1400 with nothing to spend them on. Anyone that can-do Vet HM DLC’s really should not need the extra key.
As I wrote in my post, "People who run the new DLC HMs are generally motivated by things other than keys, so the increase in the top reward, while nice, isn't as important as the buff to the middle reward to entice more of the mainstream to run vet."
And, actually, a lot of people who can reliably do DLC HMs don't have a lot of keys because they spend all their time in trials and set foot in dungeons only to level Undaunted on a new character. Not everyone is like that, of course--I personally have a lot of keys--but it does describe a lot of people.
In any case, even if the third key isn't needed as an enticement for HM, it still makes sense to give an reward appropriate for the level of challenge posed by a DLC HM.
Thats why the the seconds part I said
"The geode is a good idea."
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Agalloch✭✭✭✭✭This is the current reward structure for all pledges:- Normal: 1 key, green geode
- Veteran: 1 key, blue uncracked geode
- Veteran HM: 2 keys, purple uncracked geode
For the base-game pledges, the middle reward, in practice, does not exist. This is because the "Hard Mode" difficulty increase is modest to the point of negligibility. Essentially, if you are able to clear a base-game dungeon on Veteran, you are able to clear it on Veteran HM.
And the current reward structure is perfectly fine for the base game dungeons.
But there is a problem with the DLC dungeons, which are, without exception, more difficult than base-game dungeons. Furthermore, they are, without exception, more time-consuming, and this is true even for experienced groups: a group that can blitz through vDoM HM in 20 minutes can run through something like vArx HM in under 10 minutes.
But the bigger problem is that the DLC Hard Modes are actually hard, and this is especially true for all the dungeons released since 2018, when the dungeon team decided to further increase the non-HM and HM difficulty gap in order to give endgame players something to chew on. Personally, I love these new HMs, but it's also made the pledge reward structure seem pretty ridiculous.
Because the middle reward is so poor, there is really no incentive for people to run pledges on veteran non-HM. You either run it on normal for a quick single key, or you run it on vet HM for the full reward. But because the DLC dungeons are designed such that there is a substantial difference between vet non-HM and vet HM, that middle segment (capable of clearing vet but not vet HM) is much, much larger. The end result is that whenever I PUG pledges, people almost always do the DLC ones on normal for a single key. If they can't clear vet HM and are left to choose between normal and vet non-HM, then there's no reason to choose the latter when it offers almost the same reward for substantially more effort.
So here's what I suggest, specifically for DLC dungeons (i.e., leave the base-game pledge rewards unchanged):- Normal: 1 key, green geode (no change)
- Veteran: 2 keys, purple uncracked geode (all DLC vet non-HMs are harder than any base-game vet HM)
- Veteran HM: 3 keys, gold uncracked geode (the same daily geode reward found in PvP RftW coffers)
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_RichLambert The most important change would be the change to the middle reward: This would give players more incentive to run DLC pledges on vet non-HM instead of normal. People who run the new DLC HMs are generally motivated by things other than keys, so the increase in the top reward, while nice, isn't as important as the buff to the middle reward to entice more of the mainstream to run vet. Again, for DLC dungeons, that middle segment of vet-capable but not HM-capable is substantial whereas it doesn't really exist for the base-game dungeons.
Perfect idea! But only 10 % of the player base completed the new DLC dungeons (since 2018 until now) on vet or vet-HM0
