The rewards for vet DLC pledges are inconsistent with their difficulty

code65536

This is the current reward structure for all pledges:

• Normal: 1 key, green geode
• Veteran: 1 key, blue uncracked geode
• Veteran HM: 2 keys, purple uncracked geode

For the base-game pledges, the middle reward, in practice, does not exist. This is because the "Hard Mode" difficulty increase is modest to the point of negligibility. Essentially, if you are able to clear a base-game dungeon on Veteran, you are able to clear it on Veteran HM.

And the current reward structure is perfectly fine for the base game dungeons.

But there is a problem with the DLC dungeons, which are, without exception, more difficult than base-game dungeons. Furthermore, they are, without exception, more time-consuming, and this is true even for experienced groups: a group that can blitz through vDoM HM in 20 minutes can run through something like vArx HM in under 10 minutes.

But the bigger problem is that the DLC Hard Modes are actually hard, and this is especially true for all the dungeons released since 2018, when the dungeon team decided to further increase the non-HM and HM difficulty gap in order to give endgame players something to chew on. Personally, I love these new HMs, but it's also made the pledge reward structure seem pretty ridiculous.

Because the middle reward is so poor, there is really no incentive for people to run pledges on veteran non-HM. You either run it on normal for a quick single key, or you run it on vet HM for the full reward. But because the DLC dungeons are designed such that there is a substantial difference between vet non-HM and vet HM, that middle segment (capable of clearing vet but not vet HM) is much, much larger. The end result is that whenever I PUG pledges, people almost always do the DLC ones on normal for a single key. If they can't clear vet HM and are left to choose between normal and vet non-HM, then there's no reason to choose the latter when it offers almost the same reward for substantially more effort.

So here's what I suggest, specifically for DLC dungeons (i.e., leave the base-game pledge rewards unchanged):

• Normal: 1 key, green geode (no change)
• Veteran: 2 keys, purple uncracked geode (all DLC vet non-HMs are harder than any base-game vet HM)
• Veteran HM: 3 keys, gold uncracked geode (the same daily geode reward found in PvP RftW coffers)

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_RichLambert The most important change would be the change to the middle reward: This would give players more incentive to run DLC pledges on vet non-HM instead of normal. People who run the new DLC HMs are generally motivated by things other than keys, so the increase in the top reward, while nice, isn't as important as the buff to the middle reward to entice more of the mainstream to run vet. Again, for DLC dungeons, that middle segment of vet-capable but not HM-capable is substantial whereas it doesn't really exist for the base-game dungeons.

r3turn2s3nd3r

^ I agree with this 100%

colossalvoids

Can only completely agree on that.

Tsar_Gekkou

Sounds good to me. It's just enough of a bump up to make things worthwhile, while not excessive enough for people to cry about there being too much loot.

ChunkyCat

the journey is the reward

Hotdog_23

Good in theory but do you really need more keys? I have over 1400 with nothing to spend them on. Anyone that can-do Vet HM DLC’s really should not need the extra key.

The geode is a good idea.

colossalvoids

It's not about what we need as a reward at all, it's more of a way to easily populate vet pledges for ones who don't think can cope with hardmodes yet and just goes normal instead due to no difference in reward.

code65536

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Good in theory but do you really need more keys? I have over 1400 with nothing to spend them on. Anyone that can-do Vet HM DLC’s really should not need the extra key.

As I wrote in my post, "People who run the new DLC HMs are generally motivated by things other than keys, so the increase in the top reward, while nice, isn't as important as the buff to the middle reward to entice more of the mainstream to run vet."

And, actually, a lot of people who can reliably do DLC HMs don't have a lot of keys because they spend all their time in trials and set foot in dungeons only to level Undaunted on a new character. Not everyone is like that, of course--I personally have a lot of keys--but it does describe a lot of people.

In any case, even if the third key isn't needed as an enticement for HM, it still makes sense to give an reward appropriate for the level of challenge posed by a DLC HM.

Hotdog_23

code65536 wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Good in theory but do you really need more keys? I have over 1400 with nothing to spend them on. Anyone that can-do Vet HM DLC’s really should not need the extra key.

As I wrote in my post, "People who run the new DLC HMs are generally motivated by things other than keys, so the increase in the top reward, while nice, isn't as important as the buff to the middle reward to entice more of the mainstream to run vet."

And, actually, a lot of people who can reliably do DLC HMs don't have a lot of keys because they spend all their time in trials and set foot in dungeons only to level Undaunted on a new character. Not everyone is like that, of course--I personally have a lot of keys--but it does describe a lot of people.

In any case, even if the third key isn't needed as an enticement for HM, it still makes sense to give an reward appropriate for the level of challenge posed by a DLC HM.

Thats why the the seconds part I said

"The geode is a good idea."

Agalloch

code65536 wrote: »

This is the current reward structure for all pledges:

• Normal: 1 key, green geode
• Veteran: 1 key, blue uncracked geode
• Veteran HM: 2 keys, purple uncracked geode

For the base-game pledges, the middle reward, in practice, does not exist. This is because the "Hard Mode" difficulty increase is modest to the point of negligibility. Essentially, if you are able to clear a base-game dungeon on Veteran, you are able to clear it on Veteran HM.

And the current reward structure is perfectly fine for the base game dungeons.

But there is a problem with the DLC dungeons, which are, without exception, more difficult than base-game dungeons. Furthermore, they are, without exception, more time-consuming, and this is true even for experienced groups: a group that can blitz through vDoM HM in 20 minutes can run through something like vArx HM in under 10 minutes.

But the bigger problem is that the DLC Hard Modes are actually hard, and this is especially true for all the dungeons released since 2018, when the dungeon team decided to further increase the non-HM and HM difficulty gap in order to give endgame players something to chew on. Personally, I love these new HMs, but it's also made the pledge reward structure seem pretty ridiculous.

Because the middle reward is so poor, there is really no incentive for people to run pledges on veteran non-HM. You either run it on normal for a quick single key, or you run it on vet HM for the full reward. But because the DLC dungeons are designed such that there is a substantial difference between vet non-HM and vet HM, that middle segment (capable of clearing vet but not vet HM) is much, much larger. The end result is that whenever I PUG pledges, people almost always do the DLC ones on normal for a single key. If they can't clear vet HM and are left to choose between normal and vet non-HM, then there's no reason to choose the latter when it offers almost the same reward for substantially more effort.

So here's what I suggest, specifically for DLC dungeons (i.e., leave the base-game pledge rewards unchanged):

• Normal: 1 key, green geode (no change)
• Veteran: 2 keys, purple uncracked geode (all DLC vet non-HMs are harder than any base-game vet HM)
• Veteran HM: 3 keys, gold uncracked geode (the same daily geode reward found in PvP RftW coffers)

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_RichLambert The most important change would be the change to the middle reward: This would give players more incentive to run DLC pledges on vet non-HM instead of normal. People who run the new DLC HMs are generally motivated by things other than keys, so the increase in the top reward, while nice, isn't as important as the buff to the middle reward to entice more of the mainstream to run vet. Again, for DLC dungeons, that middle segment of vet-capable but not HM-capable is substantial whereas it doesn't really exist for the base-game dungeons.

Perfect idea! But only 10 % of the player base completed the new DLC dungeons (since 2018 until now) on vet or vet-HM