I feel damage vs mitigation is quite good atm.

1v1 fights last quite long, two even players with builds that dont rock>scissor>paper eachother can last 2-3 mins until someone gets the advantage. That is good gameplay.

1vX, 'high end' player can trash 'baddies' 1v3 or even 1v4. Depending on what classes n builds are involved.

4v4 or 4vX, same as 1v1, and assisting players down is key if evenly matched and no rock>scissor>paper relation between the groups.

What I think needs to be worked on is some builds and classes clear advantage in PvP by having "overloaded" class skills. The class skills have to be balanced or the game gravitates to certain classes each patch.

If skills should even ve allowed to be overloaded they have to be accessible to all classes.

Defile has to be more present on the battlefield for strategic use against single tank targets to deny them healing for as long as defile are spammed on them.

Many of the devs have a background in Dark Age of Camelot, they know how to make a 3 realm pvp game with fast paced strategic pvp. Look at daoc skills and copy that (CC, disease, healing mechanics).

TLDR: I think TTK is almost perfect atm in 1v1, 1vPlebs, 4v4, 4vPlebs.
Devs could find more ways for defile to be strategically used in Zerg v Zerg and 4vX.

A perfectly bad idea especially for the current team. They tend to go to extremes as far as we can see and I certainly don’t want healing to be gutted, just nerfed. What makes ESO interesting is the balance of survivability skills and offensive skills to ultimately find a chance to bring down your opponent.

Imagine a NB in stealth. It comes out of stealth and drops 3 DoTs then goes back to stealth. I mean... you can’t out HoT DoTs so they just need to wait til your HP drops low enough and execute you. Take a Templar for this next example. Why they *** would anyone cast any non-extended ritual skills? They’re literally *** heal/Magicka (this applies to all other classes) so you’ll just end up with those skills replaced.

Now, players in ESO are quite squishy. They’re really really easy to kill without heals. This is how a lot of 1vX happens too. Good players know they need to sustain themselves; bad players tend to forget. This lets the good players burst down the enemy since they’re careless enough to not heal even when their HP is around 50%.

Self healing is fine. PvP group healing is absurd, and even more absurd when stacked with self healing.

You could put a cooldown on receiving healing from other players, PvP only, no effect on self healing. Healers would need the skill to plan and time a high impact healing ability every however many seconds, instead of just mashing their BoL or Twilight button, and stacking healers in groups would become incredibly inefficient.

It's probably not doable because it would necessitate changing a lot of other stuff. You wouldn't want people on heal cooldown from some rando HoT tick from a proc set or whatever.

You could increase the cost of abilities that heal other players, PvP only, no effect on healing that only targets the caster. This would force players to build less mitigation and HP but more sustain if they want to keep their allies alive, a meaningful choice between face tanking and group support.

Some abilities, like Honor the Dead, would have to become self heals only, which probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

Raudgrani wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Well, we will find out. Because heals are pretty strong now, and we see a lot of babies crying about that, so in order to please these babies and save the game, they (ZOS) will blindly cut down healing abilities by about - well let's say the usual percentage, some 40-70% I guess?

Nothing is ever done gradually in this game. So expect some "healing nerf" update soon, where healing will be but a memory.

us babies, happen to be trying to balance the game. healing is (imo) too strong atm. so strong in fact that i quit cp pvp. no cp is much better. less heal crits.

Sorry for late reply. Yes, it needs adjustment, but we all know how "adjustment" works when taken care of by the developers of this game. "Ohh, this ability seems to strong, we never play the game ourselves - so how would we know? But a lot of people complain in the forums... Let's cut it with 70%, and do the same to all other similar abilities". Next update, some other type of skill(s) get the same treatment, increased or decreased by silly numbers.

This mentality have more or less killed the game already. I'm waiting for a while longer, for them to come to their senses regarding balancing of the game. But it feels pretty hopeless to be fair. I know it must not be an easy task, but to adjust skills by some 40-70% every time... They never learn?

This so much.

And when it happens, same people who asked for the nerfs will go all: "No one asked THIS big nerfs and these also nerfed so hard on the side.." and most of them learn to not ask nerfs anymore, since they most of the time will make the game worse, not better.

Imagine how ZOS would handle big heal nerfs. Result: NB meta with everyone just getting Sniped/Ganked and no chance to recover since burst heals would be no more, so always the one getting the 1st strike burst in would usually automatically win. And NB would get that 1st strike from Cloak.

Same with numbers, anything you would get against you that would not be a 1vs1 would most often kill you, some might see it as a good thing i guess, but.. it would just encourage even more of the mindless drone playstyle.

While that patch would be hilarious for the NB class, it would mean all the FOTM people would roll it - Cyrodiil would both look and BE more empty except for when someone would go into a flag area or started sieging they would get Sniped from all directions because everyone would try to stay as much invisible as can since cannot heal anymore properly if takes heavy damage first.

To make it "fair" they would have to destroy also % heals.

Besides invisibility meta some would try build as much as can with Shields instead as sort of extra hp/burst heal that it in reality functions as. That would be nerfed next, to be "fair" so some classes cannot imitate burst healing. Cloak would get destroyed too, to be "fair" so one class would not have a reset in/out of battle skill.

What we would have left then would pretty much be a who hits first and/or with bigger numbers wins game. Exciting? Not. Remaining groups who even wanted to play this game anymore would just transform to even bigger and tighter groups to have what little benefit cross-healing would give and stomp any smaller numbers.

Is this what people really want?

ESO pvp would be bad, i cannot see anything fun on a game like that.

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Well, we will find out. Because heals are pretty strong now, and we see a lot of babies crying about that, so in order to please these babies and save the game, they (ZOS) will blindly cut down healing abilities by about - well let's say the usual percentage, some 40-70% I guess?

Nothing is ever done gradually in this game. So expect some "healing nerf" update soon, where healing will be but a memory.

us babies, happen to be trying to balance the game. healing is (imo) too strong atm. so strong in fact that i quit cp pvp. no cp is much better. less heal crits.

Sorry for late reply. Yes, it needs adjustment, but we all know how "adjustment" works when taken care of by the developers of this game. "Ohh, this ability seems to strong, we never play the game ourselves - so how would we know? But a lot of people complain in the forums... Let's cut it with 70%, and do the same to all other similar abilities". Next update, some other type of skill(s) get the same treatment, increased or decreased by silly numbers.

This mentality have more or less killed the game already. I'm waiting for a while longer, for them to come to their senses regarding balancing of the game. But it feels pretty hopeless to be fair. I know it must not be an easy task, but to adjust skills by some 40-70% every time... They never learn?

This so much.

And when it happens, same people who asked for the nerfs will go all: "No one asked THIS big nerfs and these also nerfed so hard on the side.." and most of them learn to not ask nerfs anymore, since they most of the time will make the game worse, not better.

Imagine how ZOS would handle big heal nerfs. Result: NB meta with everyone just getting Sniped/Ganked and no chance to recover since burst heals would be no more, so always the one getting the 1st strike burst in would usually automatically win. And NB would get that 1st strike from Cloak.

Same with numbers, anything you would get against you that would not be a 1vs1 would most often kill you, some might see it as a good thing i guess, but.. it would just encourage even more of the mindless drone playstyle.

While that patch would be hilarious for the NB class, it would mean all the FOTM people would roll it - Cyrodiil would both look and BE more empty except for when someone would go into a flag area or started sieging they would get Sniped from all directions because everyone would try to stay as much invisible as can since cannot heal anymore properly if takes heavy damage first.

To make it "fair" they would have to destroy also % heals.

Besides invisibility meta some would try build as much as can with Shields instead as sort of extra hp/burst heal that it in reality functions as. That would be nerfed next, to be "fair" so some classes cannot imitate burst healing. Cloak would get destroyed too, to be "fair" so one class would not have a reset in/out of battle skill.

What we would have left then would pretty much be a who hits first and/or with bigger numbers wins game. Exciting? Not. Remaining groups who even wanted to play this game anymore would just transform to even bigger and tighter groups to have what little benefit cross-healing would give and stomp any smaller numbers.

Is this what people really want?

ESO pvp would be bad, i cannot see anything fun on a game like that.

When 99% of players ask for heal nerfs, they mean every other heal but vigor.

Major_Lag wrote: »

Considering that healing is due to be nerfed - probably sooner rather than later - and also considering ZOS' track record of nerfing things into Oblivion with 70-80% nerfs, we'll see for ourselves how PvP plays without usable heals... next update.

I don’t think so. I mean, they mentioned in the patch notes they’re keeping track of hots because they brought dots down but didn’t touch them.

I expect tinkering but leaving hots strong was likely a way to see how it effected balance between classes with good self healing vs poor self healing.

Idk what they were looking for exactly or what their conclusion was.

Iskiab wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Considering that healing is due to be nerfed - probably sooner rather than later - and also considering ZOS' track record of nerfing things into Oblivion with 70-80% nerfs, we'll see for ourselves how PvP plays without usable heals... next update.

I don’t think so. I mean, they mentioned in the patch notes they’re keeping track of hots because they brought dots down but didn’t touch them.

Let's be real here. Forums are brimming with complaints about how heals are now OP, since damage has been nerfed but healing was mostly left untouched.
Given how ZOS normally operates (read as: nerfs things), it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that heals will almost certainly be nuked in the next major update.

xylena wrote: »

self heals aren't the problem.

Except when they are: even in noCP, in 1v1 situations it's quite feasible to just stall more or less endlessly while waiting for your opponent to make a mistake (and/or for reinforcements to arrive).
Of course with OP self heals we also have OP cross healing, but that's another story altogether.

IMO what we need is some way to reward playing more aggressively, instead of just turtling up and stalling around.
And also some means to promote proper diversification of roles in groups, instead of just stacking healtanks and rolling the enemies over with large numbers of tanky, low damage output players. (this mostly refers to less organized groups, since highly organized groups are already using highly diversified roles and builds)

Some broad ideas:

• reduce outgoing (cross) heals proportionally to the caster's damage resistances, thus forcing healers to build maximally squishy to maximize group healing effectiveness - OR making a compromise in being more tanky but significantly less effective at healing their group,
• (exponentially) reduce effectiveness of every additional active cross healing effect on players by X% relative to the previous one (thus making "blob stacking" of more than 2-3 healers increasingly inefficient),
• reduce healing done, and particularly cross healing done, when blocking (IN PvP ONLY = via battle spirit),
• introduce damaging abilities which ignore block and/or prevent blocking for X seconds after having successfully broken through block ("guard breaker" type abilites), the latter would need to be on some kind of cooldown obviously,
• some kind of block fatigue mechanic (again, in PvP only) - we already have dodgeroll and streak fatigue, so it's not like there isn't a precedent for the presence of fatigue on defensive mechanics.

(edit: typos)

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Well, we will find out. Because heals are pretty strong now, and we see a lot of babies crying about that, so in order to please these babies and save the game, they (ZOS) will blindly cut down healing abilities by about - well let's say the usual percentage, some 40-70% I guess?

Nothing is ever done gradually in this game. So expect some "healing nerf" update soon, where healing will be but a memory.

us babies, happen to be trying to balance the game. healing is (imo) too strong atm. so strong in fact that i quit cp pvp. no cp is much better. less heal crits.

Actually, from a quick pass through the forums, everything is too strong...healing, vampire drain, tanks, snipe, sorcs (always), templars, proc sets, harmony traits, damage shields, block, DK leap, magcros (wth?)...It is not about balance with that many people complaining about that many different things.

Healing will get nerfed about the same percentage as DOTs were nerfed around 40-60% across the board.

In open world PVP, healers will be just as powerful as before, groups will just carry more of them, but ranged mag sorcs and stamblades will be really strong. People will complain about whatever floats to the top of the next meta just like they always do.