Is dragon leap so versitale, that in any situation the user is at a advantage?

oXI_Viper_IXo · December 2019

I

Qbiken wrote: »

Of course OP is a console player..... L M A O

What does that have to do with anything?

Xvorg · December 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

To say this ultimate is not a gap closer which let's break down gap closer definition -
A move that player lock on opponent at over 10 meters and pulls the user to the opponent. This is a fact
MAKING DK LEAP A GAP CLOSER

Please please stop the bias attempt to act like this ultimate isn't over preforming as a meta. STUNS, stun are in my opinion the most effective tactic available or meta in pvp. (God please aleast let these bias dks get that). This is way it is my belief
THAT GAP CLOSER SHOULD NEVER STUN

Can you make up your mind already?
Yes it CAN be used as a gap Closer, emphasizing the CAN, you said that leaps Primary function is being a gap Closer, which is wrong, as I said previously its Primary function is burst Damage.
So again, yes it can be used as a gap Closer, but thats not its Primary function, nor is it a gap Closer in the sense of being a spammable gap Closer like all other gap Closers are.
It is an ult for burst Damage which CAN close a gap. But if you compare it to other gap Closers you will see that those are not ultimates and can be spammed (and some can also stun, streak and toppling come to mind)

If Leap was a projectile with the same dmg, ulti cost and the stun, 99% of the DKs would still use it, because it is the burstiest skill on a class that lacks class executes.

Even more, if Leap is a gap closer, how is that most sDKs run S/B and 2H gap closers?

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2019

I dragon leaped Rakkhat one time. It was definitely not an OP move on that particular day. Haha.

Sanguinor2 · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

If Leap was a projectile with the same dmg, ulti cost and the stun, 99% of the DKs would still use it, because it is the burstiest skill on a class that lacks class executes.

Even more, if Leap is a gap closer, how is that most sDKs run S/B and 2H gap closers?

True that.
Thats why I emphasize the can, leap can be used as gap Closer, but it actually doesnt get used as gap Closer unless you want to look cool or something, because you certainly cant use leap as your only gap Closer if you want to have any hope of catching up to someone.

Xvorg · December 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

If Leap was a projectile with the same dmg, ulti cost and the stun, 99% of the DKs would still use it, because it is the burstiest skill on a class that lacks class executes.

Even more, if Leap is a gap closer, how is that most sDKs run S/B and 2H gap closers?

True that.
Thats why I emphasize the can, leap can be used as gap Closer, but it actually doesnt get used as gap Closer unless you want to look cool or something, because you certainly cant use leap as your only gap Closer if you want to have any hope of catching up to someone.

As a last note that I forgot to mention(but don't tell OP ): Teleport Strike is also a gap closer that stuns (if done from sneak).

So we have that most class gap closers stun. The only one that doesn't do that is... tadaaaaaaa... Empowering chains xD

sly007 · December 2019

Lol, yes, nerf dk some more. I love that yesterday it was dizzy. The same players are still dying so today is leap. Tomorrow it will be executioner because these players will get smacked for 16k executioner.

Sorbin · December 2019

Who the hell cares if it's a gap closer that stuns? I facetank leaps daily on a high-damage build. File this *** under "Learn to Mitigate" and move on.

Ragnarock41 · December 2019

sly007 wrote: »

Lol, yes, nerf dk some more. I love that yesterday it was dizzy. The same players are still dying so today is leap. Tomorrow it will be executioner because these players will get smacked for 16k executioner.

Anything and everything that gets these people killed is overpowered , no exceptions.

MashmalloMan · December 2019

I think this is the most I've ever seen the community agree to disagree with an OP. Beautiful, beautiful stuff.

OP, just because people don't agree with you, doesn't make everyone a DK fanboy. It's an ultimate. If you want to argue about your "beliefs" as if their fact (gap closers + stuns) look at abilities you can use whenever you want and think about the complete context of a classes toolkit instead of within a vacuum.

Play a DK competitively and competently in pvp so you can understand the pro's and con's. No one will ever take your opinion seriously until you think about both sides of the coin. That is what balance is, what you're vigoursly fighting for, is not balance, it's bias.

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

All and most are saying the same thing. And that is bias. What I'm overall hearing is gap closers should not stun unless it's my dragon leap ultimate. Well I say it you dont stand for something you will fall for nothing. Right is right no matter the situation. AFTER PROVING DK LEAP IS A GAP CLOSER. We are making baby steps to a goal. It's clear that most agree gap closer should never stun as abilities. Now let's work on ultimate.

If a meteor stun with no q
Would it be overpowered

If you was just attacking a meteor user with no q with little to no reaction time. While attacking. And the meteor user on defense. use the ultimate and stun burst you before you can react
Would it be overpowered.

NOW ADD LAG and meteor as a metaphor for dragon leap.

TrinityBreaker · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

All and most are saying the same thing. And that is bias. What I'm overall hearing is gap closers should not stun unless it's my dragon leap ultimate. Well I say it you dont stand for something you will fall for nothing. Right is right no matter the situation. AFTER PROVING DK LEAP IS A GAP CLOSER. We are making baby steps to a goal. It's clear that most agree gap closer should never stun as abilities. Now let's work on ultimate.

If a meteor stun with no q
Would it be overpowered

If you was just attacking a meteor user with no q with little to no reaction time. While attacking. And the meteor user on defense. use the ultimate and stun burst you before you can react
Would it be overpowered.

NOW ADD LAG and meteor as a metaphor for dragon leap.

Nerf steak by removing its stun.

Sanguinor2 · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

All and most are saying the same thing. And that is bias. What I'm overall hearing is gap closers should not stun unless it's my dragon leap ultimate. Well I say it you dont stand for something you will fall for nothing. Right is right no matter the situation. AFTER PROVING DK LEAP IS A GAP CLOSER. We are making baby steps to a goal. It's clear that most agree gap closer should never stun as abilities. Now let's work on ultimate.

If a meteor stun with no q
Would it be overpowered

If you was just attacking a meteor user with no q with little to no reaction time. While attacking. And the meteor user on defense. use the ultimate and stun burst you before you can react
Would it be overpowered.

NOW ADD LAG and meteor as a metaphor for dragon leap.

Well there is one fundamental difference between leap and Meteor that you completely ignore (surprise surprise might that be a hint of *gasp* bias?):
If Meteor had no Audio or visual cue you cannot react to it since the camera angle of your character and the angle from which Meteor drops make it invisible until it is in your face. (Or if you look upwards to check for a Meteor you wont see your Opponent)
Now compare it to leap: When a dk casts leap you see him grow massive wings out of his back, take to the air and jump towards you, all of which happens in a camera angle perfectly visible while Looking straight ahead, how much more of a cue do you Need to see leap? You literally have your Opponent grow wings and take to the sky, not really normal behaviour in EsO PvP or is it?

Towards your gap Closer Thing: once again, while leap can be used to close a gap it is not primarily a gap Closer but a burst Damage ultimate. In Addition by virtue of leap being an ultimate it does not behave like gap Closers do since you cannot spam it, the earliest time you can recast leap is 31 seconds after your initial leap.

phoenixkungfu · December 2019

So your agreement to gameplay balance is primarily that it's ok to break common sense gameplay breaking mechanic of a gap closer that can stun. if it can't be spam. Mmmm ok

In terms of spam, as a metaphor, dragon leap requires THE LEAST AMOUNT OF SET UP WITH THE HIGHEST AMOUNT OF REWARD. In the game. This is where the metaphor of" spam" comes to play. By it being a gap closer that player locks and damage,. the damage can be loaded up after the stun. Which is a gameplay BROKEN MECHANIC because it's a gap closer that stuns. Which results in players using this ultimate at cost in most to all cases in combat. Be it on defense or offensive. Which displays the metaphor of spam.

And easily makes this ultimate THE BEST ULTIMATE IN THE GAME TO DATE.

Sanguinor2 · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

So your agreement to gameplay balance is primarily that it's ok to break common sense gameplay breaking mechanic of a gap closer that can stun. if it can't be spam. Mmmm ok

In terms of spam, as a metaphor, dragon leap requires THE LEAST AMOUNT OF SET UP WITH THE HIGHEST AMOUNT OF REWARD. In the game. This is where the metaphor of" spam" comes to play. By it being a gap closer that player locks and damage,. the damage can be loaded up after the stun. Which is a gameplay BROKEN MECHANIC because it's a gap closer that stuns. Which results in players using this ultimate at cost in most to all cases in combat. Be it on defense or offensive. Which displays the metaphor of spam.

And easily makes this ultimate THE BEST ULTIMATE IN THE GAME TO DATE.

It literally cannot be spam if it has a 31 second cooldown Minimum. Spam means using something in rapid succession, in a game where nearly no non ultimate has a cooldown using something every 31 seconds is not spam, and thats a fact no matter your Feelings or belief on that.

Landing an unblocked leap on anything that is not a potato actually requires Setup, while not particulary challenging Setup (then again there is no real difficult Setup in this game) it still requires you to stun your target because everything that is not a potato will use the counterplay available to them and hold down their Right mouse button aka block and mitigate a lot of burst Damage and the stun.

While leap is a strong ultimate it hardly is the best ultimate in the game or even the best ultimate available to dks depending on the Situation. In pure Damage Meteor or onslaught respectively are stronger and can both be Setup by dks through fossilize. As defensive ultimate bats, spell wall and resto ult are stronger than leap by a whole lot and for Group Utility shifting Standard is way better than leap.

Honestly how anyone can say leap is the best ult in the game when stuff like colossus or Permafrost exists is beyond me.

Banana · December 2019

Surely there's better things to complain about

CynicK · December 2019

It is a good ultimate but it is balanced with the cost, the thing is some classes do not have very good ultimates for pvp, don't ask for nerf ask for more imagination; The only thing I do not like of it and I think should be fixed is people that put the ultimate in a bar and change bar or light attack then while flying use the execute and you recive the leap the light attack and the execute all at the same time, that is not fair three attacks at once if you are leaping you are leaping not making other attacks too, i do not say cast time but that you cannot perfom other actions until you land and have performed the leap.

Moonsorrow · December 2019

There are generic nerf topics and then there is this level of.. think it is better to remain silent this time.

I would propably get banned if i did my usual anti-nerf wall of text this time, it would go beyond every rules, a manifestation of terror, four horsemen, raining rusty nails, locust hordes and blood sacrifice. It would summon pure darkness from all possible dimensions.

I believe i will show myself out of this topic now.

relentless_turnip · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

Is dragon leap so versatile that in any situation the user is at a advantage? I explained before how to is true for dk. In terms of meter. Once upon a time meter had no q. No 3 sec to alert the player meter was cast on a player it was a nightmare to counter meter. Also casting a meter has a delay that provides no guarantee defense smell window of reaction time. It's always 3 sec. the dev have done a great job create a balance counter play to meter. In terms of dk leap. At a minimum I would like to see a q to show a leap is target lock on you.
HOWEVER, I SIMPLY BELIEVE GAP CLOSER SHOULD NEVER STUN.

Meteor is unblockable and undodgeable(you can block the stun) it does twice the damage of leap easily...
Read the last patch notes, it was made so.

Leap is blockable, dodgeable and buggable and as I just said does half the damage.

Like someone has already said and you ignored meteor is completely comparable to meteor...

The only difference is it doesn't put the caster next to you, but you wouldn't want it to as it is used by the likes of you.

Ranged!!!

DK's have no other means of executing players... its a good ultimate not the best, but a good gap filler for the gapping hole in a DK's kit. i.e. the slowest class, with no execute

You need to honestly listen to peoples advice and go away and look at yourself.
I'm not saying this to be mean, but you are not being objective or impartial either.
You are however demanding exactly that from everyone else without even hearing them.

Play a DK for a month and then come back and tell us your opinion.
I promise you will not be able to get within a mile of the damage and mobility on your sorc.

Abyssmol · December 2019

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

All and most are saying the same thing. And that is bias. What I'm overall hearing is gap closers should not stun unless it's my dragon leap ultimate. Well I say it you dont stand for something you will fall for nothing. Right is right no matter the situation. AFTER PROVING DK LEAP IS A GAP CLOSER. We are making baby steps to a goal. It's clear that most agree gap closer should never stun as abilities. Now let's work on ultimate.

If a meteor stun with no q
Would it be overpowered

If you was just attacking a meteor user with no q with little to no reaction time. While attacking. And the meteor user on defense. use the ultimate and stun burst you before you can react
Would it be overpowered.

NOW ADD LAG and meteor as a metaphor for dragon leap.

Nerf steak by removing its stun.

Based on your logic - remove the stun from streak. It can be used as a gap closer!!!

Davadin · December 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

To say this ultimate is not a gap closer which let's break down gap closer definition -
A move that player lock on opponent at over 10 meters and pulls the user to the opponent. This is a fact
MAKING DK LEAP A GAP CLOSER

Please please stop the bias attempt to act like this ultimate isn't over preforming as a meta. STUNS, stun are in my opinion the most effective tactic available or meta in pvp. (God please aleast let these bias dks get that). This is way it is my belief
THAT GAP CLOSER SHOULD NEVER STUN

Gap closers as toppling or shielded assault, maybe. But that will lead to a world where sorcs can streak away during months and never catch them, you know why?

But Leap? LEAP? a Ultimate skill used for the dmg it delivers? You know how stupid is to use leap against a streaking sorc? If the sorc is good enough he's going to break free and then streak with CC immnunity during 6 secs. How many streaks you can do in 6 secs? So, after the sorc is catched he has 6 secs when he can strike away.

Besides that, the DK has wasted all his ulti and since the sorc is streaking away he cannot generate more ulti. Even more, if the Sorc is good enough, he can just streak in the direction of the DK and put a beautiful stun, forcing him to burn stam. The same stam he uses to sprint.

Your is a L2P issue. I play DK as much as I play on my sorc, and I've never, ever had a problem with leap, because I leanrt to press the right button of the mouse, long, long ago.

Overperforming skills are those which have no counter. A skill that's countered with the right button of the mouse cannot be overperforming.

That makes me remember, what's the counter move against streak if the sorc catches me? Right, there's no counter, not even blocking. Move away from the trail or get stunned. And even with that, have you ever seen any DK here complaining about streak stun? No, right? Because dealing with streaking sorcs is a L2P issue.

this post almost brought tears to my eyes...

gepe87 · December 2019

Btw ultimates are the only skills that are balanced. Except nonsense silence (stun was better) incap strike.

PS: I dont play as NB.

robpr · December 2019

Leap itself is just damage with movement and blockable stun. Rest is DK passive that gets triggered by any ultimate.

Xvorg · December 2019

gepe87 wrote: »

Btw ultimates are the only skills that are balanced. Except nonsense silence (stun was better) incap strike.

PS: I dont play as NB.

Yeah, killing incap was one of the worst decisions ever. Then killing DBoS because it stunned...

... is it just me or I see a pattern here? And if you agree, what comes next? Nerf Attro? Nerf Tether?

GhostofDatthaw · December 2019

The Uninvited wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

Po
Ta
To

These should be the runes for the most powerful enchantment in the game. I actually read it in that voice.

The rune is called Wheelers Weiner. It give you the ability to phase through lag and smite your foes.

TrinityBreaker · December 2019

Abyssmol wrote: »

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

All and most are saying the same thing. And that is bias. What I'm overall hearing is gap closers should not stun unless it's my dragon leap ultimate. Well I say it you dont stand for something you will fall for nothing. Right is right no matter the situation. AFTER PROVING DK LEAP IS A GAP CLOSER. We are making baby steps to a goal. It's clear that most agree gap closer should never stun as abilities. Now let's work on ultimate.

If a meteor stun with no q
Would it be overpowered

If you was just attacking a meteor user with no q with little to no reaction time. While attacking. And the meteor user on defense. use the ultimate and stun burst you before you can react
Would it be overpowered.

NOW ADD LAG and meteor as a metaphor for dragon leap.

Nerf steak by removing its stun.

Based on your logic - remove the stun from streak. It can be used as a gap closer!!!

Ay man, Im just using OP's logic against him at this point.

r3turn2s3nd3r · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

All and most are saying the same thing. And that is bias.

Actually, that's called 'consensus'. Also, MagSorc main here, DK leap is fine. That is all.

Joy_Division · December 2019

phoenixkungfu wrote: »

So your agreement to gameplay balance is primarily that it's ok to break common sense gameplay breaking mechanic of a gap closer that can stun. if it can't be spam. Mmmm ok

In terms of spam, as a metaphor, dragon leap requires THE LEAST AMOUNT OF SET UP WITH THE HIGHEST AMOUNT OF REWARD. In the game. This is where the metaphor of" spam" comes to play. By it being a gap closer that player locks and damage,. the damage can be loaded up after the stun. Which is a gameplay BROKEN MECHANIC because it's a gap closer that stuns. Which results in players using this ultimate at cost in most to all cases in combat. Be it on defense or offensive. Which displays the metaphor of spam.

And easily makes this ultimate THE BEST ULTIMATE IN THE GAME TO DATE.

I get this feeling that as a kid, you probably complained that the Rainbow Trail in Candyland over-performed because it allowed players to get across the board quickest with the least amount of effort.

kalunte · December 2019

@Xvorg
for your concern: a skill that teleports your char from one place to another player or NPC is a gapcloser. be it instant, cast, ultimate or a potion. the skill closes the gap between you and your target.

=> this is what makes it a gapcloser.

N.B: if you dont have any target you CANNOT USE IT.

2nd point: streak teleports you somewhere at a fixed range. you can use it whenever you want as long as your ressourcepool pay the price. is it a great skill? yes, is it somehow heavily loaded? YES. is it another thread to create? maybe.

3rd: Leap hasnt been "tweaked" like any other gapcloser? oh that doesnt necessarly mean it isnt a gapcloser.
It only shows how privileged the skill has been for so long.

go on, fight for your piece of meat and show us more how biased (most of) you DKs are.

Onefrkncrzypope · December 2019

kalunte wrote: »

@Xvorg
for your concern: a skill that teleports your char from one place to another player or NPC is a gapcloser. be it instant, cast, ultimate or a potion. the skill closes the gap between you and your target.

=> this is what makes it a gapcloser.

N.B: if you dont have any target you CANNOT USE IT.

2nd point: streak teleports you somewhere at a fixed range. you can use it whenever you want as long as your ressourcepool pay the price. is it a great skill? yes, is it somehow heavily loaded? YES. is it another thread to create? maybe.

3rd: Leap hasnt been "tweaked" like any other gapcloser? oh that doesnt necessarly mean it isnt a gapcloser.
It only shows how privileged the skill has been for so long.

go on, fight for your piece of meat and show us more how biased (most of) you DKs are.

It was tweaked multiple times. Many were nerfs... very very very sad nerfs. How long have you been playing? The Dirty ZoS fingers pretty recently touched it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2019

Are we still talking about Dragon Leap? As in that ultimate ability that you can see coming from a mile away and is totally blockable? Seriously, what am I missing?

Also, love how that this still ended up as a nerf sorc thread. Haha