Why are players dropping like flies?

daedalusAI · November 2019

Quite simple for a number of reasons:

ESO is several years old and yet has constant server/performance issues like a beta game
Sledgehammer-approach every time a new DLC/expansion is released with constant 180° like e.g. overbuffing DoTs with U23 and doing a complete reversal + increased costs in U24
Homogenization and uncapped stats which make hybrids trash by default heavily limit fun/engagement/experimentation with builds
Overwhelming majority of sets being trash and even a build designed for a specific set maybe gets it towards something decent/good
Depending on class/build the majority of your bar slots are occupied with weapon or guild skills so the touted "class balance" amount to nothing, as barely any class skills are used
Overland content dumbed-down so much that you can do everything naked with heavy-attacks
A plethora of bugs which ZOS couldn't care less to fix like e.g. Wayrest II with mobs getting stuck in walls or NPCs not moving so the door doesn't open at the start
Close to 0 actual communication as the main mode of conversation are copy/paste templates of mods or the usual "We removed criticism/post we didn't like" posts

JamuThatsWho · November 2019

Because the servers don't work.

Ri_Khan · November 2019

I'd like to point out to everyone saying that they're seeing lots of players in-game still, you have absolutely no idea how many instances there are so it's really not a good way of judging population.

Aurielle · November 2019

I decided to log in yesterday just to see how much has changed since I last played a few months ago. HOO BOY. It’s really sad when you can barely self-sustain your way through a NORMAL base game dungeon (solo) using an older vet trials setup that used to manage those exact same dungeons with ease. PVP and vet trials must be a nightmare at the moment after these terrible sustain changes. People will always find a way to adapt, but the in-game expense is unreal. Are the devs aware that balancing skill costs based on the amount of damage that a tiny percentage of hardcore raiders can achieve is not the way to go?

If I continue to play this game here on out, it will be on an EXTREMELY casual basis. Literally just doing overworld quests and public dungeons on occasion if I want to take a break from competitive PVP in other games. I don’t have the time or the patience to rebuild EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER every two to three months to have even half a shot at performing decently in my preferred content (while dealing with atrocious performance issues on top of it all). This game doesn’t deserve dedicated attention, and it definitely doesn’t deserve your hard-earned cash.

Elsonso · November 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Secondly, GW2 has actual class identity. Each class plays completely different, with their own selection of weapon options that offer skills unique to each class (greatsword on Guardian is different to greatsword on Warrior, which is different to greatsword on Mesmer), as well as their own unique class mechanics. Class identity is so strong, that most friends who I got to try out GW2, coming from ESO, legitimately couldn't choose a class to stick with, because they were each so strong, fun and engaging in their own way.

And this is where ZOS fails in their "any class can do anything" strategy. It's boring, non-immersive, and ultimately discourages players from spending time developing a new class.

I haven't played GW2, but in EverQuest, each class had unique abilities, and if you wanted to be able to use those abilities, you had to level a character of that class. It made for more involved gameplay, and was shrewd on the part of the developers, because they knew they had people spending a lot more time on their game trying to perfect all aspects of the race/class differentials. And there was no crutching on CP to make the leveling process a one or two day affair to have a max capabilites character... you actually had to put in the time and earn it.

An ESO player may level up a toon and max out his CP, but the difference between classes is so small that he may just skip grinding a new one and move on to something else.

Aurielle wrote: »

I decided to log in yesterday just to see how much has changed since I last played a few months ago. HOO BOY. It’s really sad when you can barely self-sustain your way through a NORMAL base game dungeon (solo) using an older vet trials setup that used to manage those exact same dungeons with ease. PVP and vet trials must be a nightmare at the moment after these terrible sustain changes. People will always find a way to adapt, but the in-game expense is unreal. Are the devs aware that balancing skill costs based on the amount of damage that a tiny percentage of hardcore raiders can achieve is not the way to go?

If I continue to play this game here on out, it will be on an EXTREMELY casual basis. Literally just doing overworld quests and public dungeons on occasion if I want to take a break from competitive PVP in other games. I don’t have the time or the patience to rebuild EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER every two to three months to have even half a shot at performing decently in my preferred content (while dealing with atrocious performance issues on top of it all). This game doesn’t deserve dedicated attention, and it definitely doesn’t deserve your hard-earned cash.

Yeah, sadly, they really went the extra distance this time to take the fun out of certain play styles and builds. They have done this before, but adapting was really only critical for higher end play. My characters feel old. They put the "Elder" in Elder Scrolls, this time.

Rungar · November 2019

Are they though.. there was almost 22k people on steam last night. I think the demographic is changing.

TequilaFire · November 2019

Yeah it is free to play week and the last weekend of the event. lol

Facefister · November 2019

TequilaFire wrote: »

Yeah it is free to play week and the last weekend of the event. lol

This is how they tinker with "unique logins" data. They do the very same trickery with Twitch, they don't lure people with interesting content reveals or patches, they lure them with a lousy crate.

Strider__Roshin · November 2019

My guild left a couple of patches ago when they added cast times to ultimates, and buffed DoTs. PvE has never been a problem for us so we never cared if our dps went down (it has always been too good). However we're primarily PvPers so when they watered down the combat and dramatically lowered the skill ceiling we left for BDO. I'm the only one that occasionally checks the forums to see what the situation looks like over here. Still doesn't look good.

Vahrokh · November 2019

Daus wrote: »

My guild left a couple of patches ago when they added cast times to ultimates, and buffed DoTs. PvE has never been a problem for us so we never cared if our dps went down (it has always been too good). However we're primarily PvPers so when they watered down the combat and dramatically lowered the skill ceiling we left for BDO. I'm the only one that occasionally checks the forums to see what the situation looks like over here. Still doesn't look good.

I play MMOs since 2001 and I have seen a number become famous, then wither down and close.

In the MMOs that went down:

majority did not really care. They just went to play something else.
people who really cared, were called "naysayers", "Cassandras", "whiners". They were banned, suspended, pointed and laughed at.
MMO affiliated Youtubers kept selling the snake oil until the last drop was gone. Most often, a Youtuber or Twitcher are stongly dependent on only one MMO, therefore they push it until it's over.
There are many shills, white knights and developers alts roaming forums and social media. They provide constant "crowd control" and take down whoever dissents.

The result is always the same: one day, suddenly, there's an announcement that the MMO is going to shutdown on Dec 31th.

The Cassandras were right and they were the only ones who really cared for the MMO. There'll be little to rejoyce when they learn they were right and, even then, nobody will care.

tahol10069 · November 2019

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I'd like to point out to everyone saying that they're seeing lots of players in-game still, you have absolutely no idea how many instances there are so it's really not a good way of judging population.

This works the other way around too, you know?

Vahrokh · November 2019

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I'd like to point out to everyone saying that they're seeing lots of players in-game still, you have absolutely no idea how many instances there are so it's really not a good way of judging population.

Are chats instanced too?

Because I play every day in a certain region (one of the earliest DLCs released) and every day I LF the same world bosses.
Since about 6 months ago, after years of constant feedback, I am getting a lot less people joining, sharing dailies and so on.

If zone chat is not instanced, then it's an indication of a decline in numbers.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo · November 2019

I think it's various decisions that have made the game less interesting lately:

- PVP hasn't received an interesting update in a very long time (only real addition being Volundrung -> deception to some)
- PVE has received too many updates in a short time span which has spiked little interest from players IMO.
- The European server issues and downtime have not help gain the community's trust
- The focus on brining new players without the proper retro-fixes has not helped gain the community's trust
- Too many meta changes in a short time span (buff/debuff/nerf/buff/oh what are we doing here?)
- The P2W is being felt across the board, you can't deny it. I think many do not like this approach and wil leave accordingly.

Valkysas154 · November 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

My guild left a couple of patches ago when they added cast times to ultimates, and buffed DoTs. PvE has never been a problem for us so we never cared if our dps went down (it has always been too good). However we're primarily PvPers so when they watered down the combat and dramatically lowered the skill ceiling we left for BDO. I'm the only one that occasionally checks the forums to see what the situation looks like over here. Still doesn't look good.

I play MMOs since 2001 and I have seen a number become famous, then wither down and close.

In the MMOs that went down:
majority did not really care. They just went to play something else.

people who really cared, were called "naysayers", "Cassandras", "whiners". They were banned, suspended, pointed and laughed at.

MMO affiliated Youtubers kept selling the snake oil until the last drop was gone. Most often, a Youtuber or Twitcher are stongly dependent on only one MMO, therefore they push it until it's over.

There are many shills, white knights and developers alts roaming forums and social media. They provide constant "crowd control" and take down whoever dissents.

The result is always the same: one day, suddenly, there's an announcement that the MMO is going to shutdown on Dec 31th.

The Cassandras were right and they were the only ones who really cared for the MMO. There'll be little to rejoyce when they learn they were right and, even then, nobody will care.

Going by the text in that screen shot i assume that was a EA mmorpg
NEVER play a EA mmorpg i learned this back when they made Earth and beyond in the early 2000's
they shut the server down and when i asked them why there response was they needed the servers for there new game !

And to be on topic allot of ppl like me mostly play this game for the story when we are done no point in keep playing until a decent amount of story has come out to play

Vahrokh · November 2019

Valkysas154 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

My guild left a couple of patches ago when they added cast times to ultimates, and buffed DoTs. PvE has never been a problem for us so we never cared if our dps went down (it has always been too good). However we're primarily PvPers so when they watered down the combat and dramatically lowered the skill ceiling we left for BDO. I'm the only one that occasionally checks the forums to see what the situation looks like over here. Still doesn't look good.

I play MMOs since 2001 and I have seen a number become famous, then wither down and close.

In the MMOs that went down:
majority did not really care. They just went to play something else.

people who really cared, were called "naysayers", "Cassandras", "whiners". They were banned, suspended, pointed and laughed at.

MMO affiliated Youtubers kept selling the snake oil until the last drop was gone. Most often, a Youtuber or Twitcher are stongly dependent on only one MMO, therefore they push it until it's over.

There are many shills, white knights and developers alts roaming forums and social media. They provide constant "crowd control" and take down whoever dissents.

The result is always the same: one day, suddenly, there's an announcement that the MMO is going to shutdown on Dec 31th.

The Cassandras were right and they were the only ones who really cared for the MMO. There'll be little to rejoyce when they learn they were right and, even then, nobody will care.

Going by the text in that screen shot i assume that was a EA mmorpg
NEVER play a EA mmorpg i learned this back when they made Earth and beyond in the early 2000's
they shut the server down and when i asked them why there response was they needed the servers for there new game !

And to be on topic allot of ppl like me mostly play this game for the story when we are done no point in keep playing until a decent amount of story has come out to play

It started as a regular brand MMO, then it entered the EA black hole.

EA: the elephant cemetery, where companies go to die.

decade_mauler · November 2019

After 4+ years Woke up this morning started my dailies and finally did what I had been contemplating for the past year. I broke down all my armor, weapons, jewelry and monster sets gave away everything, deleted my characters and uninstalled the game on PS4 . Just had to make sure there was no going back. PVP is no fun anymore . You feel you have so much time and effort invested that it really does make it hard to put down.

You can wait for the next expansion where they make their newest character super OP just to sell expansions and you need to decide if you want to grind it out or just become cannon fodder until they balance them back to where they should be

No more MMO's for me , I don't plan on investing this kind of time in another game ...

Best to all who remain...

siddique · November 2019

decade_mauler wrote: »

After 4+ years Woke up this morning started my dailies and finally did what I had been contemplating for the past year. I broke down all my armor, weapons, jewelry and monster sets gave away everything, deleted my characters and uninstalled the game on PS4 . Just had to make sure there was no going back. PVP is no fun anymore . You feel you have so much time and effort invested that it really does make it hard to put down.

You can wait for the next expansion where they make their newest character super OP just to sell expansions and you need to decide if you want to grind it out or just become cannon fodder until they balance them back to where they should be

No more MMO's for me , I don't plan on investing this kind of time in another game ...

Best to all who remain...

This is what ZOS really needs to figure out. Please stop destroying this game. Change your combat team. Put them in marketing or pr just away from things they have no clue about.

Jaraal · November 2019

siddique wrote: »

decade_mauler wrote: »

After 4+ years Woke up this morning started my dailies and finally did what I had been contemplating for the past year. I broke down all my armor, weapons, jewelry and monster sets gave away everything, deleted my characters and uninstalled the game on PS4 . Just had to make sure there was no going back. PVP is no fun anymore . You feel you have so much time and effort invested that it really does make it hard to put down.

You can wait for the next expansion where they make their newest character super OP just to sell expansions and you need to decide if you want to grind it out or just become cannon fodder until they balance them back to where they should be

No more MMO's for me , I don't plan on investing this kind of time in another game ...

Best to all who remain...

This is what ZOS really needs to figure out. Please stop destroying this game. Change your combat team. Put them in marketing or pr just away from things they have no clue about.

But according to them they're "killing it", so why would they change something they are happy with? The players' opinion and experience is irrelevant, because their "vision" is the only thing they are looking at.

Vahrokh · November 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

decade_mauler wrote: »

After 4+ years Woke up this morning started my dailies and finally did what I had been contemplating for the past year. I broke down all my armor, weapons, jewelry and monster sets gave away everything, deleted my characters and uninstalled the game on PS4 . Just had to make sure there was no going back. PVP is no fun anymore . You feel you have so much time and effort invested that it really does make it hard to put down.

You can wait for the next expansion where they make their newest character super OP just to sell expansions and you need to decide if you want to grind it out or just become cannon fodder until they balance them back to where they should be

No more MMO's for me , I don't plan on investing this kind of time in another game ...

Best to all who remain...

This is what ZOS really needs to figure out. Please stop destroying this game. Change your combat team. Put them in marketing or pr just away from things they have no clue about.

But according to them they're "killing it", so why would they change something they are happy with? The players' opinion and experience is irrelevant, because their "vision" is the only thing they are looking at.

"Those who don't learn from past mistakes, are doomed to repeat them".

We had the Blizzard president telling us that what matters is how THEY think we are meant to have fun, they know better than their players and... WoW lost several millions of players since then. And still stinks.

starkerealm · November 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I'd like to point out to everyone saying that they're seeing lots of players in-game still, you have absolutely no idea how many instances there are so it's really not a good way of judging population.

Are chats instanced too?

Because I play every day in a certain region (one of the earliest DLCs released) and every day I LF the same world bosses.
Since about 6 months ago, after years of constant feedback, I am getting a lot less people joining, sharing dailies and so on.

If zone chat is not instanced, then it's an indication of a decline in numbers.

As far as I can tell, Zone chat is instanced. Though, honestly, it's actually pretty difficult to be sure.

FierceSam · November 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I'd like to point out to everyone saying that they're seeing lots of players in-game still, you have absolutely no idea how many instances there are so it's really not a good way of judging population.

Are chats instanced too?

Because I play every day in a certain region (one of the earliest DLCs released) and every day I LF the same world bosses.
Since about 6 months ago, after years of constant feedback, I am getting a lot less people joining, sharing dailies and so on.

If zone chat is not instanced, then it's an indication of a decline in numbers.

Dude, if you are doing the same WBs you were 6 months ago (so, say Summerset or Murkmire), I’d be amazed if you weren’t seeing a massive drop off in interest. Most gung-*** achievists will have done them to death, many other players will have graduated to newer world boss quests simply because the loot will be better/more sellable. Even with Briarheart loot, you’ll struggle to get groups together for Orsinium WBs outside events. It’s not a reliable indicator of overall player numbers.

This, along with all of the comments here, is apocryphal data that has no validity. It is the saloon bar smokers’ area “speaking from ignorance” analysis of a situation. Pervasive bull.

I won’t buy the central thesis, that player numbers are down, until someone shows me some numbers.

Vahrokh · November 2019

FierceSam wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Ri_Khan wrote: »

I'd like to point out to everyone saying that they're seeing lots of players in-game still, you have absolutely no idea how many instances there are so it's really not a good way of judging population.

Are chats instanced too?

Because I play every day in a certain region (one of the earliest DLCs released) and every day I LF the same world bosses.
Since about 6 months ago, after years of constant feedback, I am getting a lot less people joining, sharing dailies and so on.

If zone chat is not instanced, then it's an indication of a decline in numbers.

Dude, if you are doing the same WBs you were 6 months ago (so, say Summerset or Murkmire), I’d be amazed if you weren’t seeing a massive drop off in interest. Most gung-*** achievists will have done them to death, many other players will have graduated to newer world boss quests simply because the loot will be better/more sellable. Even with Briarheart loot, you’ll struggle to get groups together for Orsinium WBs outside events. It’s not a reliable indicator of overall player numbers.

This, along with all of the comments here, is apocryphal data that has no validity. It is the saloon bar smokers’ area “speaking from ignorance” analysis of a situation. Pervasive bull.

I won’t buy the central thesis, that player numbers are down, until someone shows me some numbers.

Back off with the self judge entitlement, dude. I am not so dumb. I am talking about an ancient DLC that has long lost any attraction to new players, groups and whatsnot. That's why it's numbers are very stable, there are like 50 people playing in it. I know the zone so well that I can tell you at which hour the majority of players will be from UK (and surroundings), when they will be German / French or when they'll be Russian.
I know very well how long it takes - on average - to get a guy to share a daily and also how long it'll take and which hour of the day and at which day of the week. I know every resource spawn by memory. There's a solid reason why (actually 112 million of them

).

Anyway since Murkmire there has been a change. At first it was very subtle. Then we had an obvious massive influx at Elsweyr. But since then, the drop has been quite drastic. For the first time ever, even during events the easily farmed bosses in there have not been swarmed like they used in the past. Asking for daily quest share takes much longer to get it done. And so on.

Also, I have no special pleasure having to play slower because of less players. I have NO PLEASURE having to cancel 1 trial run out of 3 because now it's become so hard to get new raiders to replace the ones who quit. Doing trials is basically the only reason why I still play ESO, imagine that.

You don't believe? Well, I don't give a duck about that.

siddique · November 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

siddique wrote: »

decade_mauler wrote: »

After 4+ years Woke up this morning started my dailies and finally did what I had been contemplating for the past year. I broke down all my armor, weapons, jewelry and monster sets gave away everything, deleted my characters and uninstalled the game on PS4 . Just had to make sure there was no going back. PVP is no fun anymore . You feel you have so much time and effort invested that it really does make it hard to put down.

You can wait for the next expansion where they make their newest character super OP just to sell expansions and you need to decide if you want to grind it out or just become cannon fodder until they balance them back to where they should be

No more MMO's for me , I don't plan on investing this kind of time in another game ...

Best to all who remain...

This is what ZOS really needs to figure out. Please stop destroying this game. Change your combat team. Put them in marketing or pr just away from things they have no clue about.

But according to them they're "killing it", so why would they change something they are happy with? The players' opinion and experience is irrelevant, because their "vision" is the only thing they are looking at.

Killing it sounds about just right.

holden_caulfield · November 2019

siddique wrote: »

So, what's the plan? All the big guilds seem to be disbanding or have disbanded on PS4, I have heard of an exodus pre dragonhold on PC as well. All the veteran players seem to have lost interest or just stopped bothering.

It's getting harder to find a good group to even do vSS. Forget vCR. Yes, there are a few groups running around doing the hardest content but it seems a huge number of population has given way.

Is this the beginning of the end? I've played on PC since 2015 and on PS4 since 2018. Things haven't been so dismal in the past 4-plus years.

P.S, I understand dps dropped considerably this patch making the end game harder than before. But most of that content was being done with even less of a damage output when it came out.

Is it perhaps because of the absolute clueless attitude of ZOS? Like triggering people because they can't figure out what they are doing patch after patch?

I'm just trying to figure out if I should invest more time and money or maybe finally move on and wait for a new Elder Scrolls

Edit: no this is not a I quit thread. I still love this game and hope that I am wrong about my feelings.

Really? Then Im really lucky.
Try to kill a world boss? Nope! Already killed 5 minutes before.
A delve maybe? Seems to be in bejin during Rush hour.
Ok lets farm nodes. Nope everywhere platoons of botanists or miner or woodworker.

Im an early Bird even on weekend. Ok. Ill queue for a rnd dung or a BG maybe. 7gmt and 3 minutes after i have my party.
My guilds? 2 tier 1 trading guild and 3 for pkaying the content. Guess what? Packed.

Im not into conspiracy theories but these kind of posts seem to me like paid bad pubblicity.
Or really weak people try to confirm their bias and fishing for agrees from other (few) disfranchised player

FierceSam · November 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

You don't believe? Well, I don't give a duck about that.

Saloon bar discourse at its finest...

MajBludd · November 2019

When a game no longer values it's long time customers and shifts to casual players, the end is near. They are, IMO, in "rake in as much cash as possible" mode.

Rungar · November 2019

MajBludd wrote: »

When a game no longer values it's long time customers and shifts to casual players, the end is near. They are, IMO, in "rake in as much cash as possible" mode.

i would argue that eso's fans are mostly elder scrolls players and thus most of its long term players are likely also casual players. Hardcore does not necessarily equal longtime. The recent hardcore exodus didnt kill the game.

they have always been in rake in as much cash as possible mode.

FierceSam · November 2019

MajBludd wrote: »

When a game no longer values it's long time customers and shifts to casual players, the end is near. They are, IMO, in "rake in as much cash as possible" mode.

How are ZOS ‘no longer valuing’ their long term customers? They have just released another piece of DLC content, and run a very popular event.... and why is the experience of a new player less valuable than that of a long time one? They may enjoy the game far more, become far more proficient and stay longer.

I’d say that ZOS have value issues when you consider server performance issues, but those are very much equal opportunity value issues, affecting long term and new players in the same way.

I would agree that they are not in the ‘initial inventive’ phase of the game and have moved on to a ‘content development and refinement’ phase, but I would suggest that that really started at Morrowind (when BGs were introduced) and is a normal transition for any long running game and not necessarily a bad thing.

MajBludd · November 2019

@FierceSam didnt they say this much? I will see if I can find the clip for you.

Vahrokh · November 2019

FierceSam wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

You don't believe? Well, I don't give a duck about that.

Saloon bar discourse at its finest...

Cicero's rhetoric teaches us that "True speaker is one who knows how to treat humble subjects with simple language, elevated ones with solemn language, medium ones with moderate language."

Saloon bar discourse is completely appropriate here.