Troll King

ZonasArch · October 2019

Qbiken wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Lul wut

The player stacking HP Regen cannot use that HP Regen to fuel offense. The player stacking Stam Regen to fuel Vigor to compensate for low HP Regen can use that Stam Regen to fuel offense.

I mean, I can sit at 5,2k weapon damage, capped resistance with almost 4k HP regen (no lingering pots), around 1,3k stamregen and do perfectly fine. And this is in NO-CP on stamsorc. When trollking procs I can do whatever I want more or less, whether it is playing offensively or defensively. And I´m not even actively trying to stack HP-regen and if I would run with steed mundus stone I could easily breach 4k HP-regen.

Trollking is a carry and if you really want it to be used as a healer/support set, ZOS should change so the wearer can´t proc it on themselves, and add a cooldown to how often it can proc.

Can I ask your build? Sounds like a fun tank-ish build for pugging when DPS don't do their jobs.

Urzigurumash · October 2019

Please note the Troll King boss is a melee brawler?

Urzigurumash · October 2019

@ZonasArch

Thing is you're not hitting 5.2k wpn damage, 4k hp regen with a 2h infused Crusher I don't think. You'd have to forego that. Maybe use a Nirnhoned 1h if you want to use Power Bash?

Any 2 damage sets + TK + Takeaway + 5 Heavy + StamSorc/StamDK + Steed Sign + Nirnhoned weapons + points in HP & Stam Regen CP + infused weapon damage jewels. Major Brutality, Major Fortitude, Major Endurance. Should get you there.

Really just any run of the mill Brawler build is roughly hitting those numbers with TK + Takeaway.

beadabow · October 2019

Pssshhh, that boss is easy. Nerf him any more and he'll keel over from his own weight. Don't nerf anything in Blessed Crucible. Buff the lava at the end.

ZonasArch · October 2019

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@ZonasArch

Thing is you're not hitting 5.2k wpn damage, 4k hp regen with a 2h infused Crusher I don't think. You'd have to forego that. Maybe use a Nirnhoned 1h if you want to use Power Bash?

Any 2 damage sets + TK + Takeaway + 5 Heavy + StamSorc/StamDK + Steed Sign + Nirnhoned weapons + points in HP & Stam Regen CP + infused weapon damage jewels. Major Brutality, Major Fortitude, Major Endurance. Should get you there.

Really just any run of the mill Brawler build is roughly hitting those numbers with TK + Takeaway.

Noted. Will mess around with it on pts.

No, wait, no servers are up...

Qbiken · October 2019

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Qbiken

I agree 100% with your first paragraph, same is true for my StamDK.

It's no secret this set is benefiting StamDKs and StamSorcs the most.

It's not a healer/support set, it one the 2 BIS defensive monster sets for Brawlers.

What's the problem with that exactly?

I´ve no issues with brawler setups, rather the opposite.The problem is that you´ve a set that literally takes care of the healing for you, which I´m generally against. If you want to build a brawler to whitstand alot of pressure and then turnaround the fight that´s cool, but having a set that saves you every time you make a mistake isn´t enjoyable PvP, it´s that simple for me.

Urzigurumash · October 2019

Thing is what viable options do we have there to swap out for a good melee brawler?

You could swap out TK for Bloodspawn. Balorgh if you have a healer.

You could swap out Steed for Warrior/Lover, maybe Serpent. Maybe Thief/Shadow are something on an NB or Necro barlwer, not sure.

You could swap out 5 heavy for 5 medium.

You could maybe trade 1 weapon damage jewel for a stam regen jewel. On an NB Clever Alchemist Argonian maybe even 3x infused potion cooldown or something.

Point is there aren't many options besides TK. It's a staple of Brawlers. Brawlers aren't overperforming. If you can't kill a meatbag 1v1, jokes on you.

Urzigurumash · October 2019

@Qbiken

Fair enough, you dislike healing procs.

I just don't see what the ontological difference regarding a "carry" is between saying that about TK keeping you alive as saying that about Skoria/Balorgh taking down opponents.

So do you run TK on your StamSorc? Don't you wish instead of nerfing TK they'd buff Stormfirst just a little more to make you wear that instead?

Koensol · October 2019

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Qbiken

I agree 100% with your first paragraph, same is true for my StamDK.

It's no secret this set is benefiting StamDKs and StamSorcs the most.

It's not a healer/support set, it's one the 2 BIS defensive monster sets for Brawlers.

What's the problem with that exactly?

What is wrong with it is that it adds WAY too much value for a *** 2 piece armor set.... The healing potential it has is way above robes of the hist for example, which is a 5 piece set. If TK effect was on a 5 piece armor set it would be a different story. Same with that other carry trash called Zaan. Oh let me just proc zaan on you by light attack spamming, then cast my no brain fossilize and watch while you break free with 20% health left as my fellow zerglings maul on you.

Urzigurumash · October 2019

@Koensol

TK outperforming Robes of the Hist is hardly an outlier however, I could go on and on with 2 pieces that are better than 5 pieces that fit within the same role. You are saying this is generally a problem and should be corrected on a wide scale? 5 pieces should universally outperform 2 pieces that fit within the same role? That is a perfectly defensible and reasonable position to take generally regarding set balance, but it is unreasonable to say this is uniquely an issue with TK.

Making this a hard rule of set balance would probably promote build diversity. I'd still say go about it through buffs to 5 pieces rather than nerfs to 2 pieces.

Of course some caution must be exercised to ensure that set bonuses do not exceed the power of skills, or this may reduce diversity by promoting a narrow proc set meta.

If we can agree relying on Vigor and using Balorgh instead of TK provides a higher ceiling of gameplay, then I do not see that TK currently exceeds the power of skills.

Coggo · October 2019

First they came for Maubeth and I said nothing. Then Tremorscale, Pirate Skeleton then Troll King. By the time they came for Bloodspawn there was nothing left to nerf

FFS.

Koensol · October 2019

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Koensol

TK outperforming Robes of the Hist is hardly an outlier however, I could go on and on with 2 pieces that are better than 5 pieces that fit within the same role. You are saying this is generally a problem and should be corrected on a wide scale? 5 pieces should universally outperform 2 pieces that fit within the same role? That is a perfectly defensible and reasonable position to take generally regarding set balance, but it is unreasonable to say this is uniquely an issue with TK.

Yea I personally think it is without question that a 5 piece set should offer more value than a 2 piece set or at least be equal to it. As this thread is about troll king, that is what I talk about. Furthermore I believe sets with very strong effects (like TK) should either have a more challenging proc condition, or have a cooldown. TK has neither. It is a nobrainer to proc and keep high uptime on, plus its effect can even be inflated massively and easily as opposed to many other monstersets.

As I posted before, it is easy on some builds to achieve 4 to 5k health regen and still have a perfectly viable and functioning build. Way too much value for a 2 piece. I have seen TK literally save people from being killed while they lay on the ground, stunned. They would have been dead with any other set equiped, yet were carried by 5k health regen ticks from TK. Such balance.

Urzigurumash · October 2019

@Koensol

Fair enough. That makes sense to me. However if we did this nerf to TK in isolation it would result in more class imbalance, not less. We've suffered enough blanket nerfs I don't think anybody really wants a widespread reduction in set power.

Urzigurumash · October 2019

Anyhow we know a widespread Set Audit is underway. To be constructive towards this we should provide scenarios where the current power of this set is a nuisance, and when it seems next to essential. How do we all feel about this:

Troll King:

Nuisances: Dueling, Godtanks in Cyro, letting low expertise players survive a high expertise assault

Essential: No CP Melee Brawler StamSorc / StamDK

Urzigurumash · October 2019

Koensol wrote: »

I have seen TK literally save people from being killed while they lay on the ground, stunned. They would have been dead with any other set equiped, yet were carried by 5k health regen ticks from TK. Such balance.

There is a bit of "observer bias" or something here though, you didn't see when Alessian Order prevented a player from getting to a health threshold wherein they were killable while lying on the ground. Of course Alessian is a 5 piece, so this fits in line with your 2 piece vs 5 piece idea. However TK's obvious purpose is to keep you alive when at low health, this does not mean it is inherently imbalanced compared to sets designed to keep you from reaching low health.

Like I've said before, buff Aspect of Mazzatun and TK won't be such an outlier.

Hexquisite · October 2019

Wow, I haven't used Troll King in over a year on any of my PvP alts, just too many other great options.

Mayrael · October 2019

Koensol wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Koensol

TK outperforming Robes of the Hist is hardly an outlier however, I could go on and on with 2 pieces that are better than 5 pieces that fit within the same role. You are saying this is generally a problem and should be corrected on a wide scale? 5 pieces should universally outperform 2 pieces that fit within the same role? That is a perfectly defensible and reasonable position to take generally regarding set balance, but it is unreasonable to say this is uniquely an issue with TK.

Yea I personally think it is without question that a 5 piece set should offer more value than a 2 piece set or at least be equal to it. As this thread is about troll king, that is what I talk about. Furthermore I believe sets with very strong effects (like TK) should either have a more challenging proc condition, or have a cooldown. TK has neither. It is a nobrainer to proc and keep high uptime on, plus its effect can even be inflated massively and easily as opposed to many other monstersets.

As I posted before, it is easy on some builds to achieve 4 to 5k health regen and still have a perfectly viable and functioning build. Way too much value for a 2 piece. I have seen TK literally save people from being killed while they lay on the ground, stunned. They would have been dead with any other set equiped, yet were carried by 5k health regen ticks from TK. Such balance.

Mhm... Because you can achieve 5k health regen just by slotting TK. Please... If someone reaches those values he builded for it. I have tried to use TK on my builds, with CPs put into health regen, food with health regen my toon was able to reach 1k health recovery passively. With TK it went up to 2,9k. Shocking! You get 1k HPS for 10s! Thats outraging! Especially when my rapid regen ticks for 1,8 non crit and around 4k when crits (same goes to vigor). 1 cheap skill doubles and with higher crit chance even triples healing you can recieve form this set.

Also claiming "its free" is false. It uses slots where someone could place something like balrogh, earthgore (which is way more anoying on tanky builds than TK), skoria, zaan or antyhing else. The price you pay is just different than usual resources.

Once again, let me explain it to you. YOU CAN'T NERF ONE SET BECAUSE SOMEONE HAVE MADE WHOLE BUILD SPECED AROUND HEALTH REGEN! I'd post a build I can think of (without TK) but... well don't want to spoil my ideas and spread the cheese over the game. EDIT: ... and don't want it to get nerfed because of threads like this

TK alone won't save anyone if not combined with other forms of defense. Period.

Once again do the math mate, stop spreading false informations.

Koensol · October 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Koensol

TK outperforming Robes of the Hist is hardly an outlier however, I could go on and on with 2 pieces that are better than 5 pieces that fit within the same role. You are saying this is generally a problem and should be corrected on a wide scale? 5 pieces should universally outperform 2 pieces that fit within the same role? That is a perfectly defensible and reasonable position to take generally regarding set balance, but it is unreasonable to say this is uniquely an issue with TK.

Yea I personally think it is without question that a 5 piece set should offer more value than a 2 piece set or at least be equal to it. As this thread is about troll king, that is what I talk about. Furthermore I believe sets with very strong effects (like TK) should either have a more challenging proc condition, or have a cooldown. TK has neither. It is a nobrainer to proc and keep high uptime on, plus its effect can even be inflated massively and easily as opposed to many other monstersets.

As I posted before, it is easy on some builds to achieve 4 to 5k health regen and still have a perfectly viable and functioning build. Way too much value for a 2 piece. I have seen TK literally save people from being killed while they lay on the ground, stunned. They would have been dead with any other set equiped, yet were carried by 5k health regen ticks from TK. Such balance.

Mhm... Because you can achieve 5k health regen just by slotting TK. Please... If someone reaches those values he builded for it. I have tried to use TK on my builds, with CPs put into health regen, food with health regen my toon was able to reach 1k health recovery passively. With TK it went up to 2,9k. Shocking! You get 1k HPS for 10s! Thats outraging! Especially when my rapid regen ticks for 1,8 non crit and around 4k when crits (same goes to vigor). 1 cheap skill doubles and with higher crit chance even triples healing you can recieve form this set.

Also claiming "its free" is false. It uses slots where someone could place something like balrogh, earthgore (which is way more anoying on tanky builds than TK), skoria, zaan or antyhing else. The price you pay is just different than usual resources.

Once again, let me explain it to you. YOU CAN'T NERF ONE SET BECAUSE SOMEONE HAVE MADE WHOLE BUILD SPECED AROUND HEALTH REGEN! I'd post a build I can think of (without TK) but... well don't want to spoil my ideas and spread the cheese over the game. EDIT: ... and don't want it to get nerfed because of threads like this

TK alone won't save anyone if not combined with other forms of defense. Period.

Once again do the math mate, stop spreading false informations.

Whatever. It's a waste of time trying to convince people that what they use is 100% cheese. Have fun on your cheesy caluurion magblade

Mayrael · October 2019

Koensol wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Koensol

TK outperforming Robes of the Hist is hardly an outlier however, I could go on and on with 2 pieces that are better than 5 pieces that fit within the same role. You are saying this is generally a problem and should be corrected on a wide scale? 5 pieces should universally outperform 2 pieces that fit within the same role? That is a perfectly defensible and reasonable position to take generally regarding set balance, but it is unreasonable to say this is uniquely an issue with TK.

Yea I personally think it is without question that a 5 piece set should offer more value than a 2 piece set or at least be equal to it. As this thread is about troll king, that is what I talk about. Furthermore I believe sets with very strong effects (like TK) should either have a more challenging proc condition, or have a cooldown. TK has neither. It is a nobrainer to proc and keep high uptime on, plus its effect can even be inflated massively and easily as opposed to many other monstersets.

As I posted before, it is easy on some builds to achieve 4 to 5k health regen and still have a perfectly viable and functioning build. Way too much value for a 2 piece. I have seen TK literally save people from being killed while they lay on the ground, stunned. They would have been dead with any other set equiped, yet were carried by 5k health regen ticks from TK. Such balance.

Mhm... Because you can achieve 5k health regen just by slotting TK. Please... If someone reaches those values he builded for it. I have tried to use TK on my builds, with CPs put into health regen, food with health regen my toon was able to reach 1k health recovery passively. With TK it went up to 2,9k. Shocking! You get 1k HPS for 10s! Thats outraging! Especially when my rapid regen ticks for 1,8 non crit and around 4k when crits (same goes to vigor). 1 cheap skill doubles and with higher crit chance even triples healing you can recieve form this set.

Also claiming "its free" is false. It uses slots where someone could place something like balrogh, earthgore (which is way more anoying on tanky builds than TK), skoria, zaan or antyhing else. The price you pay is just different than usual resources.

Once again, let me explain it to you. YOU CAN'T NERF ONE SET BECAUSE SOMEONE HAVE MADE WHOLE BUILD SPECED AROUND HEALTH REGEN! I'd post a build I can think of (without TK) but... well don't want to spoil my ideas and spread the cheese over the game. EDIT: ... and don't want it to get nerfed because of threads like this

TK alone won't save anyone if not combined with other forms of defense. Period.

Once again do the math mate, stop spreading false informations.

Whatever. It's a waste of time trying to convince people that what they use is 100% cheese. Have fun on your cheesy caluurion magblade

1. Since when magblades are cheese?

Go play one then we can talk

2. Im not using caluurion since... can't even remember when I stopped to use it

3. Instead of checking my posts history you should provide some actual data about why you think TK is so OP, because faking stats isn't a good way to do it

Urzigurumash · October 2019

@Koensol

Just like carry needs a definition, cheese needs a definition. What qualifies as these pejoratives in CP Cyrodiil may not in No CP Battlegrounds. You see a Caluurion's proc very rarely in Battlegrounds, I don't see how it is cheese in any sense from how I understand the term.

This idea that only static raw stat sets are virtuous engenders banality, in my view. Part of this game is coming up with interesting combinations of equipment and skills and such. This is not a fighting game.

Qbiken · October 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Koensol

TK outperforming Robes of the Hist is hardly an outlier however, I could go on and on with 2 pieces that are better than 5 pieces that fit within the same role. You are saying this is generally a problem and should be corrected on a wide scale? 5 pieces should universally outperform 2 pieces that fit within the same role? That is a perfectly defensible and reasonable position to take generally regarding set balance, but it is unreasonable to say this is uniquely an issue with TK.

Yea I personally think it is without question that a 5 piece set should offer more value than a 2 piece set or at least be equal to it. As this thread is about troll king, that is what I talk about. Furthermore I believe sets with very strong effects (like TK) should either have a more challenging proc condition, or have a cooldown. TK has neither. It is a nobrainer to proc and keep high uptime on, plus its effect can even be inflated massively and easily as opposed to many other monstersets.

As I posted before, it is easy on some builds to achieve 4 to 5k health regen and still have a perfectly viable and functioning build. Way too much value for a 2 piece. I have seen TK literally save people from being killed while they lay on the ground, stunned. They would have been dead with any other set equiped, yet were carried by 5k health regen ticks from TK. Such balance.

Mhm... Because you can achieve 5k health regen just by slotting TK. Please... If someone reaches those values he builded for it. I have tried to use TK on my builds, with CPs put into health regen, food with health regen my toon was able to reach 1k health recovery passively. With TK it went up to 2,9k. Shocking! You get 1k HPS for 10s! Thats outraging! Especially when my rapid regen ticks for 1,8 non crit and around 4k when crits (same goes to vigor). 1 cheap skill doubles and with higher crit chance even triples healing you can recieve form this set.

Also claiming "its free" is false. It uses slots where someone could place something like balrogh, earthgore (which is way more anoying on tanky builds than TK), skoria, zaan or antyhing else. The price you pay is just different than usual resources.

Once again, let me explain it to you. YOU CAN'T NERF ONE SET BECAUSE SOMEONE HAVE MADE WHOLE BUILD SPECED AROUND HEALTH REGEN! I'd post a build I can think of (without TK) but... well don't want to spoil my ideas and spread the cheese over the game. EDIT: ... and don't want it to get nerfed because of threads like this

TK alone won't save anyone if not combined with other forms of defense. Period.

Once again do the math mate, stop spreading false informations.

Took about 10-15 minutes to setup this in build editor:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=180025

Ignore the major expedition/evasion buff, was playing around brp dw in editor and forgot to uncheck them

I don´t consider this setup to be actively building for HP-regen. Arteum Takaway Broth is pretty much basic "to go food" for most stamina based speccs in PvP. Same goes for 7th Legion and Fury (at least if you want to play Heavy). This build is perfectly viable for solo open world in NO-CP. The stats you see in the build editor are without CP enabled keep that in mind. Could easily cheese 5k+ HP regen with CP + Steed.

Koensol · October 2019

You guys can stop quoting me. This discussion is a waste of time. Think what you want, I have said what my view is. @Qbiken already took the effort to provide an example build reaching very high levels of health recovery without even trying. If you still believe TK isn't a carry, or caluurion for that matter, go ahead. But know you are only embarrassing yourself at this point.

Mayrael · October 2019

LOL

what you both still not get is the most important part, try to read it carefully:
TROLL KING EVEN ON BUILD CREATED BY QBIKEN GIVES YOU LITERALLY 1,2 HPS WHEN BELOW 50% HP
Is it strong? Yes. Is it really so OP? Vigor or RR will have at least 2x effective healing power. You blame one set for whole build being strong.

TriangularChicken · October 2019

Qbiken wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

@Koensol

TK outperforming Robes of the Hist is hardly an outlier however, I could go on and on with 2 pieces that are better than 5 pieces that fit within the same role. You are saying this is generally a problem and should be corrected on a wide scale? 5 pieces should universally outperform 2 pieces that fit within the same role? That is a perfectly defensible and reasonable position to take generally regarding set balance, but it is unreasonable to say this is uniquely an issue with TK.

Yea I personally think it is without question that a 5 piece set should offer more value than a 2 piece set or at least be equal to it. As this thread is about troll king, that is what I talk about. Furthermore I believe sets with very strong effects (like TK) should either have a more challenging proc condition, or have a cooldown. TK has neither. It is a nobrainer to proc and keep high uptime on, plus its effect can even be inflated massively and easily as opposed to many other monstersets.

As I posted before, it is easy on some builds to achieve 4 to 5k health regen and still have a perfectly viable and functioning build. Way too much value for a 2 piece. I have seen TK literally save people from being killed while they lay on the ground, stunned. They would have been dead with any other set equiped, yet were carried by 5k health regen ticks from TK. Such balance.

Mhm... Because you can achieve 5k health regen just by slotting TK. Please... If someone reaches those values he builded for it. I have tried to use TK on my builds, with CPs put into health regen, food with health regen my toon was able to reach 1k health recovery passively. With TK it went up to 2,9k. Shocking! You get 1k HPS for 10s! Thats outraging! Especially when my rapid regen ticks for 1,8 non crit and around 4k when crits (same goes to vigor). 1 cheap skill doubles and with higher crit chance even triples healing you can recieve form this set.

Also claiming "its free" is false. It uses slots where someone could place something like balrogh, earthgore (which is way more anoying on tanky builds than TK), skoria, zaan or antyhing else. The price you pay is just different than usual resources.

Once again, let me explain it to you. YOU CAN'T NERF ONE SET BECAUSE SOMEONE HAVE MADE WHOLE BUILD SPECED AROUND HEALTH REGEN! I'd post a build I can think of (without TK) but... well don't want to spoil my ideas and spread the cheese over the game. EDIT: ... and don't want it to get nerfed because of threads like this

TK alone won't save anyone if not combined with other forms of defense. Period.

Once again do the math mate, stop spreading false informations.

Took about 10-15 minutes to setup this in build editor:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=180025

Ignore the major expedition/evasion buff, was playing around brp dw in editor and forgot to uncheck them

I don´t consider this setup to be actively building for HP-regen. Arteum Takaway Broth is pretty much basic "to go food" for most stamina based speccs in PvP. Same goes for 7th Legion and Fury (at least if you want to play Heavy). This build is perfectly viable for solo open world in NO-CP. The stats you see in the build editor are without CP enabled keep that in mind. Could easily cheese 5k+ HP regen with CP + Steed.

This build has a) low stam regen (1175 with major and minor endurance on front bar is ridiculously low for no cp), b) low mag regen, c) no stun (offbalance heavy weave is too difficult to pull off in no cp in most situations when outnumbered) and d) way lower health regen when you're on the front bar (which is the main bar obviously).

TK is only good when you have a certain amount of max health in combination with natural health regen from food, etc. In no cp you have to build for that max health, all the stats are lower by default.

Your Build Editor game is truely strong - that's something I cannot say about your 1vX skills.

Coatmagic · October 2019

Yet again, another 4 page (so far) thread asking for the wrong thing...

separate pvp and pve or disable certain sets/skills in cyro.

wtaf is wrong with all you people that you don't see this??

everyone that plays this game should have been crying out for this from the start *sigh*

pathetic.

Mayrael · October 2019

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=187717

No troll king. Effective weapon damage lower by 1k but you have passive 3k health regen almost all the time, 7k ressists more and you can generate 14 ults every 6s.

Edit:
If I had to choose I'd go this way allowing me to use my ultimates more often (when lucky 140 ult per minute more, which means more burst options due to better onslaught uptime or when needed go defensive spell wall), also high passive regen from 100% hp and 7k more resist making this build tanky from the very begin.

Edit2:
Oh and you can actually go way above it when using new pots with unnamed resistances making you pretty unkillable as your ressitances will go above 40k (remember that players always have some penetration so its not like in PvE where 34k resists is absolute max you should have) meaning your health regen will be even higher while having capped resists even vs people with higher penetration.

Ragnarock41 · October 2019

Drako_Ei wrote: »

No. It should be buffed, healers stopped using it

Why would you use troll king when your heals already heal people for like 20k?

Shaloknir · October 2019

Troll king is fine. Monster sets should be powerful right? In my opinion there is too many monster sets that do not live up to the expectations. That is where the focus should be. Give some sweet love and attention to less powerful sets to make them appealing.

coradaelu · October 2019

regime211 wrote: »

Needs a hard nerf.

No.

Emma_Overload · October 2019

Wasn't there a thread just like this about Bloodspawn a few days ago?

Man, even the old school sets aren't safe!