Which type of player are they aiming to please ?

Shantu · October 2019

GilliamtheRogue 1:01:50 min: "..what kind of players experience the game in different ways, and what is our target audience with some these changes. So like in some of these cases it's a numbers game which not everyone really cares about. The average player who's going to come on and just kill some dragons or stuff like that, they don't care if they're spammable is doing a billion damage...

This comment is so far off the mark it's very discouraging to think this the mindset of the combat team. In my experience in running and engaging in end game content for several guilds, there are far more "average" players who care about their dps than there are elite players in their "target audience".

Why is it that their perception is so narrowly focused the top echelon that they cannot see the result of their changes have a FAR more negative affect on average players? Is the average player so chided and derided on the forums to "git gud" that they're just seen as lazy, not willing to put in the work, and therefore not worth consideration?

Here's a news flash: Most people cannot adapt well to this fast twitch, animation canceling type of combat. But they struggle to improve because they love the game. When these average players decide leave after having the fruit of their efforts to improve suffer the attrition of developer nerfs, maybe they'll end up getting their due respect.

In some ways the combat system of ESO is a work of complex brilliance. But on another level, it's so complex that it's subject to such broad interpretation that you end up in the proverbial scenario of developers not being able to see the forest for the trees.

Raideen · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

I wonder if this is actually the case. I mean think about it. People are only going to blow so much on crowns/loot crates before they feel sick inside (you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

I wonder if they intend to somehow purge those who don't spend money anymore...I mean this sounds wacky to me, but at the same time it makes sense.

Companies are always looking for fresh blood, both customers and my favorite "We hire directly out of college for fresh perspectives and enthusiasm" LOL no, you hire out of college to low ball grads and pay them pennies vs industry standards.

If the goal was high churn, it would be F2P.

Outside of the initial purchase, it is free to play.

Thanks for once again proving my point. Well done!

Translation, "if the game was free, it would be free to play, but it's not, so it isn't."

For all intents and purposes in the argument at hand, yes it is. But you just like to pick and choose. The FACT is that this game is based on a free to play model, which all use cash shops. Just because you have to purchase it initially does not mean its not free to play, especially in MMO terms.

Raideen · October 2019

deleted

starkerealm · October 2019

Raideen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

I wonder if this is actually the case. I mean think about it. People are only going to blow so much on crowns/loot crates before they feel sick inside (you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

I wonder if they intend to somehow purge those who don't spend money anymore...I mean this sounds wacky to me, but at the same time it makes sense.

Companies are always looking for fresh blood, both customers and my favorite "We hire directly out of college for fresh perspectives and enthusiasm" LOL no, you hire out of college to low ball grads and pay them pennies vs industry standards.

If the goal was high churn, it would be F2P.

Outside of the initial purchase, it is free to play.

Thanks for once again proving my point. Well done!

Translation, "if the game was free, it would be free to play, but it's not, so it isn't."

For all intents and purposes in the argument at hand, yes it is. But you just like to pick and choose. The FACT is that this game is based on a free to play model, which all use cash shops. Just because you have to purchase it initially does not mean its not free to play, especially in MMO terms.

Not sure when the last time you played another game, but the whole, "cash shop" business model isn't just a "f2p" thing anymore.

Every MMO, even WoW, has a cash shop now. They're a standard in any live service release. It'd be pretty hard to argue that Ghost Recon: Breakpoint is a F2P game, but, oh, look, there's a cash shop. Same with Rage 2, Assassin's Creed Odyssey, hell even Fallout 4 has a cash shop. So, while you can say, "no, this 'fact' makes the game F2P," I hate to break it to you, but it's not 2007 anymore.

Vhozek · October 2019

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Didnt they say in one of those live things a few months back that it was the hardcore end game folk they were designing stuff for? Not us casual kill a dragon and have fun types?

Are you sure? Because as someone who wants to play this game hardcore, I find it incredibly easy to play and make constant threads about game difficulty.
I think they meant grinders when they said that because I'm neither having fun nor finding it challenging. I often get very sleepy on my chair like an old person from spamming the same oversimplified controls against a damage sponge or paper mobs.

OG_Kaveman · October 2019

(you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

personally, i have 100% never done this. in any game. it is sad to me that people spend their money like that. i mean, do what makes you happy but i simply can not imagine the amount of money i, personally, would have to have to do that sort of thing.

C0RTEX4 · October 2019

Look this is why we cry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=182&v=9Ywdh1on_HU

Enough said...

Mr_Bear · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

Trial accounts do not count towards unlocking the bank.

Yes they do, I've done it.

Korah_Eaglecry · October 2019

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

I wonder if this is actually the case. I mean think about it. People are only going to blow so much on crowns/loot crates before they feel sick inside (you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

I wonder if they intend to somehow purge those who don't spend money anymore...I mean this sounds wacky to me, but at the same time it makes sense.

Companies are always looking for fresh blood, both customers and my favorite "We hire directly out of college for fresh perspectives and enthusiasm" LOL no, you hire out of college to low ball grads and pay them pennies vs industry standards.

Idk, it would make sense to please players if they want to earn more. Just buying a basic version of the game to try it is much cheaper than crown crates, houses and other stuff (not to mention crafting bag!). And long-time players are more inclined to spend money.
Adding the best gear to the new chapter already "filters out" non-paying players.

Whales are the ones more likely to spend more money. They likely have enough data on the playerbase to actually predict who will spend and who will not, as well as generally how much they can expect from these players in revenues. And what content those types of players are engaging in.

Notice that prices have not dropped in the crown store, but they have leveled out. They really aren't playing with prices like they were the first few years the store was up and running. This is because they now know what will sell and what won't. Costumes are not pouring out of the store, nor is hairstyles or other accessories but motifs, pets, glowy mounts, oversized and overpriced houses and ease of access services are constantly being added.

I'm not even sure ZOS gives a damn about the balancing anymore. It sure doesn't seem like it with their current approach. It's like they let Wheeler just go hog wild or maybe they forgot he works for them. His work keeps showing up at the deadline but no one pays any attention to whats coming out of that guys office. Theyre too busy worrying about the next portion of the game can they monetize.

idk · October 2019

I think the combat changes are a shot in the dark attempt to redesign the game to make it easier for them to manage.

Think about it for a moment. If you look at what we considered heavy handed changes every quarter before this recent roller coaster began it showed Zos had no clue on how to manage combat in this game.

They failed to think through major changes such as the CP system. It is utterly laughable that Matt Firor thought launching that players could reach and use the full 3600 CP pointes in less than 2 years. That was the case even though we told them how powerful it was when we tested it on the PTS. It took that system going live that way before they finally got a clue.

So that is why these changes are being made. However, it is the same Matt Firor that signed off on the original CP design that has signed off on this. Of course, Zos is "killing it" and we see how well that is going since PC EU has had the same recurring issues with overloading the servers since early this year. LOL

starkerealm · October 2019

idk wrote: »

I think the combat changes are a shot in the dark attempt to redesign the game to make it easier for them to manage.

Think about it for a moment. If you look at what we considered heavy handed changes every quarter before this recent roller coaster began it showed Zos had no clue on how to manage combat in this game.

They failed to think through major changes such as the CP system. It is utterly laughable that Matt Firor thought launching that players could reach and use the full 3600 CP pointes in less than 2 years. That was the case even though we told them how powerful it was when we tested it on the PTS. It took that system going live that way before they finally got a clue.

So that is why these changes are being made. However, it is the same Matt Firor that signed off on the original CP design that has signed off on this. Of course, Zos is "killing it" and we see how well that is going since PC EU has had the same recurring issues with overloading the servers since early this year. LOL

Could have sworn the expectation was that it would take 10 years to max out your CP. Though, that might have been players sitting there doing the math.

What remains mindboggling to me about the CP system was that they decided to go for those fractions of a percent. Which meant they had to inflate the stats, which broke a lot of achievements in the game, and caused all kinds of issues, all over the place. And then, of course, CP3600 characters lagged out PvP hard, even on the PTS, with tiny populations.

I get that the CP system was something they put together in under a year, and it's a miracle they kept increasing the spending cap as long as they did (after realizing they needed one at all, and implementing it.) But, the system is still bonkers.

rpa · October 2019

Actually as medicore non-twitchy old player, I'm slowly starting to get into weaving / animation cancelling. I still eventually do get tangled in my fingers but the main problem is lag and skills / bar swaps not working.

starkerealm · October 2019

rpa wrote: »

Actually as medicore non-twitchy old player, I'm slowly starting to get into weaving / animation cancelling. I still eventually do get tangled in my fingers but the main problem is lag and skills / bar swaps not working.

It's a rythym thing. You can get it.

One thing that can help a lot is if you've got extra buttons on your mouse, binding bar swap to one of those buttons. It puts most of your rotational controls on one hand, and can help with swap canceling.

TelvanniWizard · October 2019

@Raideen I don't quote because the post is lenghty, but: bravo, ser! Totally agree with you.

starkerealm · October 2019

Raideen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Secondly, the fact that you say the monetization method of this game is not predatory/scummy tells me a couple things.

I never said that.

You say it in every post defending ZO$$$$ whenever someone mentions their dirty practices.

No, I have never said it was not predatory. And the fact that you can't pull up a screen cap saying as much only supports that.

Raideen wrote: »

1. You have already established in another thread that the devs are friends of yours...

starkerealm wrote: »

I also never said this.

I have interacted with them personally. I met them during the 2018 Summerset testing event. You can look it up. I've since interacted with them on a number of occasions. If you really want an itinerary, I can probably reconstruct it. You're the one who turned, "I've met them a few times, and as far as I can see, they're decent people," into, "you're best buds with them, and can't be trusted."

Raideen wrote: »

Come again? I guess every time you run with them, its new...as if you have not done it before? Odd, odd indeed.

Secondly, you admitted your opinion is biased, that is why it is not trustworthy. I only said what you said about yourself.

So, you're close friends with everyone you've run content with?

I've run dungeons with Rich, I've run them with Gina, I've even run trials with Gina, Finn, and Gil. And of course, I have a world's first with Gil from before he was an employee.

Also, in the context you were unable to parse, I said my perspective on, "The devs don't play their own game," is a bit distorted because, wait for it, I've run content with them. I know it's simply untrue.

Zacuel · October 2019

Assess me by my posts.

*Goofy smile, goes cross eyed*

Raideen · October 2019

deleted

starkerealm · October 2019

Raideen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

So, you're close friends with everyone you've run content with?

That I run content consistently with, yes.

Okay, so you're not friends with everyone you run content with?

Raideen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

I've run dungeons with Rich, I've run them with Gina, I've even run trials with Gina, Finn, and Gil. And of course, I have a world's first with Gil from before he was an employee.

Ok, so we have established that you know them and that your OPINION about the game and its practices are biased in their favor, you already admitted to this. Why the rehash?

No, we've established as a fact that your opinion is biased, because you cannot understand that people can hold multiple pieces of information, and unrelated opinions on different subjects.

Raideen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, in the context you were unable to parse, I said my perspective on, "The devs don't play their own game," is a bit distorted because, wait for it, I've run content with them. I know it's simply untrue.

Because it was irrelevant to this discussion, sadly you could not parse that data.

If I wrote it, which I did, and I'm telling you it was relevant to the context of the comment, then it would follow that I knew what I was typing.

Raideen · October 2019

deleted

Stibbons · October 2019

They are clearly aiming for rich offline player.

kalunte · October 2019

To OP: all or none.

The ones can't live without the others. As simple as this.

This the goal.

barney2525 · October 2019

Saltisol wrote: »

Seeing all the negative posts on this forum I'm not sure who they are aiming this game at, I mean which type of player are they trying to satisfy ?

the tall ones?

idk · October 2019

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

I wonder if this is actually the case. I mean think about it. People are only going to blow so much on crowns/loot crates before they feel sick inside (you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

I wonder if they intend to somehow purge those who don't spend money anymore...I mean this sounds wacky to me, but at the same time it makes sense.

Companies are always looking for fresh blood, both customers and my favorite "We hire directly out of college for fresh perspectives and enthusiasm" LOL no, you hire out of college to low ball grads and pay them pennies vs industry standards.

Idk, it would make sense to please players if they want to earn more. Just buying a basic version of the game to try it is much cheaper than crown crates, houses and other stuff (not to mention crafting bag!). And long-time players are more inclined to spend money.
Adding the best gear to the new chapter already "filters out" non-paying players.

Whales are the ones more likely to spend more money. They likely have enough data on the playerbase to actually predict who will spend and who will not, as well as generally how much they can expect from these players in revenues. And what content those types of players are engaging in.

Notice that prices have not dropped in the crown store, but they have leveled out. They really aren't playing with prices like they were the first few years the store was up and running. This is because they now know what will sell and what won't. Costumes are not pouring out of the store, nor is hairstyles or other accessories but motifs, pets, glowy mounts, oversized and overpriced houses and ease of access services are constantly being added.

I'm not even sure ZOS gives a damn about the balancing anymore. It sure doesn't seem like it with their current approach. It's like they let Wheeler just go hog wild or maybe they forgot he works for them. His work keeps showing up at the deadline but no one pays any attention to whats coming out of that guys office. Theyre too busy worrying about the next portion of the game can they monetize.

True that Zos has a good handle on how to price much of what they offer. There is plenty of data already available to the industry.

However, it is clear Zos cares about balance as they would not be making these huge changes if they did not. Ofc, I am not suggesting Zos will be able to balance the game any better with this simplified system they are implementing vs how is was the past few years. I doubt anyone is being allow to go hog wild. None of those devs make any major changes without Matt Firor permitting it. He is president of the company and the "talent" Zenimax brought in to run this show.

idk · October 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I think the combat changes are a shot in the dark attempt to redesign the game to make it easier for them to manage.

Think about it for a moment. If you look at what we considered heavy handed changes every quarter before this recent roller coaster began it showed Zos had no clue on how to manage combat in this game.

They failed to think through major changes such as the CP system. It is utterly laughable that Matt Firor thought launching that players could reach and use the full 3600 CP pointes in less than 2 years. That was the case even though we told them how powerful it was when we tested it on the PTS. It took that system going live that way before they finally got a clue.

So that is why these changes are being made. However, it is the same Matt Firor that signed off on the original CP design that has signed off on this. Of course, Zos is "killing it" and we see how well that is going since PC EU has had the same recurring issues with overloading the servers since early this year. LOL

Could have sworn the expectation was that it would take 10 years to max out your CP. Though, that might have been players sitting there doing the math.

What remains mindboggling to me about the CP system was that they decided to go for those fractions of a percent. Which meant they had to inflate the stats, which broke a lot of achievements in the game, and caused all kinds of issues, all over the place. And then, of course, CP3600 characters lagged out PvP hard, even on the PTS, with tiny populations.

I get that the CP system was something they put together in under a year, and it's a miracle they kept increasing the spending cap as long as they did (after realizing they needed one at all, and implementing it.) But, the system is still bonkers.

Pretty sure I recall Zos giving a length of time in months. Considering how fast some players were gaining CP who chose to grind it I cannot fathom anyone believing it would take 10 years. In the end the CP system was just a knee jerk reaction to the problems of the vet system they originally had us grind.

Regardless, yes it was a quick turn around. Another reason I am curious how this quickly developed combat system being implemented will turn out.

starkerealm · October 2019

idk wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I think the combat changes are a shot in the dark attempt to redesign the game to make it easier for them to manage.

Think about it for a moment. If you look at what we considered heavy handed changes every quarter before this recent roller coaster began it showed Zos had no clue on how to manage combat in this game.

They failed to think through major changes such as the CP system. It is utterly laughable that Matt Firor thought launching that players could reach and use the full 3600 CP pointes in less than 2 years. That was the case even though we told them how powerful it was when we tested it on the PTS. It took that system going live that way before they finally got a clue.

So that is why these changes are being made. However, it is the same Matt Firor that signed off on the original CP design that has signed off on this. Of course, Zos is "killing it" and we see how well that is going since PC EU has had the same recurring issues with overloading the servers since early this year. LOL

Could have sworn the expectation was that it would take 10 years to max out your CP. Though, that might have been players sitting there doing the math.

What remains mindboggling to me about the CP system was that they decided to go for those fractions of a percent. Which meant they had to inflate the stats, which broke a lot of achievements in the game, and caused all kinds of issues, all over the place. And then, of course, CP3600 characters lagged out PvP hard, even on the PTS, with tiny populations.

I get that the CP system was something they put together in under a year, and it's a miracle they kept increasing the spending cap as long as they did (after realizing they needed one at all, and implementing it.) But, the system is still bonkers.

Pretty sure I recall Zos giving a length of time in months. Considering how fast some players were gaining CP who chose to grind it I cannot fathom anyone believing it would take 10 years. In the end the CP system was just a knee jerk reaction to the problems of the vet system they originally had us grind.

Regardless, yes it was a quick turn around. Another reason I am curious how this quickly developed combat system being implemented will turn out.

I don't remember that. I might be thinking of the estimation based on only earning XP while enlightened. Which would mean that, yeah, it was based on players looking at the system and reacting badly. It also occurs to me, while that math was being crunched, the Craglorn Scorpion farm was still a thing. So, that could have skewed a lot of numbers.

Bobby_V_Rockit · October 2019

this game is for everyone, not just a select few. Peace, love, pretty dresses and all that jazz

Pauls · October 2019

Saltisol wrote: »

Seeing all the negative posts on this forum I'm not sure who they are aiming this game at, I mean which type of player are they trying to satisfy ?

According to last "performance updates", they're definitely aiming to please masochists.

HybrisCross · October 2019

Kadoin wrote: »

phermitgb wrote: »

If ZOS is failing at all on the class balance front, I'd say their biggest failure is in listening to the community at all. I have no confidence in us, as a community, having the ability to suggest class/skill/cp changes with any sense of objectivity. Don't get me wrong - there are almost certainly a handful of genuinely dedicated, genuinely objective players that have some real genius ideas for the game. However, I suspect they are mostly drowned out by the army of foaming-at-the-mouth players that are trampling each other in their desperation to get their angry forum posts at the top of the thread list every morning.

You can see this exact thing if you go to the PTS section. Some of the threads are gems. The last cycle, I especially loved the one where BRP DW and Resto were defended. That one made me laugh, but also made me realize my input didn't really matter and I simply said "ah well...whatever happens, happens, the players like making suggestions and keeping things hushed then let them deal with it on live" and stayed away from the PTS and went go beat the flu.

Anyone that was testing on PTS knew mag sorc would become strong in PvP, knew that templar light was broken OP, knew that some of these proc sets would become too OP, knew that ground DoT cost increase was too steep, knew that BRP weapons were and are OP in the current patch, knew that HoTs are OP esp. layered ones, knew that crit healing is OP, knew that vengence is working better than intended, the list goes on and on, but it simply was shouted down or otherwise ignored by ZOS. It happens every PTS cycle...

I'm not surprised a majority of the playerbase may not be happy with the changes, but most of the playerbase that is complaining should have also participated in the PTS and ZOS should have gathered more direct data (like polls, surverys, etc.) to avoid having to skim through noise threads or simply ran analytics on the PTS. The result may have been better than only a few select players giving feedback with obvious bias.

now it's fault of player who don't have time to invest in the PTS

i don't know who get the obvious biad there

Urvoth · October 2019

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

If I were to guess they're trying to do what Blizzard did and push into E-sports by making everything as equal as possible.

No, the game is way too casual to be an esport and none of their current systems are designed in a way that esports could integrate with. Considering there isn’t even a 2 team pvp system yet, I’d say that esports are very far from their mind. It would be great if they did since they we’d probably get better systems and changes, but they definitely aren’t.

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

I wonder if this is actually the case. I mean think about it. People are only going to blow so much on crowns/loot crates before they feel sick inside (you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

I wonder if they intend to somehow purge those who don't spend money anymore...I mean this sounds wacky to me, but at the same time it makes sense.

Companies are always looking for fresh blood, both customers and my favorite "We hire directly out of college for fresh perspectives and enthusiasm" LOL no, you hire out of college to low ball grads and pay them pennies vs industry standards.

If the goal was high churn, it would be F2P.

Outside of the initial purchase, it is free to play.

Thanks for once again proving my point. Well done!

Translation, "if the game was free, it would be free to play, but it's not, so it isn't."

You can buy the base game for $5 (I’d know, I bought a console edition for $4.99 about a month ago), it’s practically free to play.

Practically free isn't free. You can buy a Yacht too, once you pay for that it's practically free.