Which type of player are they aiming to please ?

Saltisol

Seeing all the negative posts on this forum I'm not sure who they are aiming this game at, I mean which type of player are they trying to satisfy ?

Raideen

Their goal is not to satisfy players, its to satisfy their bank account.

Other game companies (ESP indy) make games to be fun, and earn their money that way.
ZO$ makes games to make money, and fun takes a back seat.

Sadly...they don't get it.

echo2omega

The lead for this game is an accountant and not an actual game designer. And it shows...

Jhalin

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

Eevee_42

Based on their choices in the past few months, I would say none of their current playerbase. ZO$ is somehow alienating the endgame and casual community with their bipolar changes which make zero sense to anybody. It seems they’re aiming to bring in as many new players as possible, milk them for their money until they get tired of the game, then rinse and repeat.

Raideen

Jhalin wrote: »

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

I wonder if this is actually the case. I mean think about it. People are only going to blow so much on crowns/loot crates before they feel sick inside (you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

I wonder if they intend to somehow purge those who don't spend money anymore...I mean this sounds wacky to me, but at the same time it makes sense.

Companies are always looking for fresh blood, both customers and my favorite "We hire directly out of college for fresh perspectives and enthusiasm" LOL no, you hire out of college to low ball grads and pay them pennies vs industry standards.

BlueRaven

They thought the dps was too high with the upper echelon endgame players so they nerfed dps.

Problem is upper echelon players can still do what they do. But the rest of us mere mortals got their dps wrecked.

The worst part is the combat team is perfectly fine with it. In fact they don't care about the common player, this nerf patches "targeted" audience is the upper echelon players.

LadyNalcarya

Raideen wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

I wonder if this is actually the case. I mean think about it. People are only going to blow so much on crowns/loot crates before they feel sick inside (you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

I wonder if they intend to somehow purge those who don't spend money anymore...I mean this sounds wacky to me, but at the same time it makes sense.

Companies are always looking for fresh blood, both customers and my favorite "We hire directly out of college for fresh perspectives and enthusiasm" LOL no, you hire out of college to low ball grads and pay them pennies vs industry standards.

Idk, it would make sense to please players if they want to earn more. Just buying a basic version of the game to try it is much cheaper than crown crates, houses and other stuff (not to mention crafting bag!). And long-time players are more inclined to spend money.
Adding the best gear to the new chapter already "filters out" non-paying players.

Jhalin

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

I wonder if this is actually the case. I mean think about it. People are only going to blow so much on crowns/loot crates before they feel sick inside (you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

I wonder if they intend to somehow purge those who don't spend money anymore...I mean this sounds wacky to me, but at the same time it makes sense.

Companies are always looking for fresh blood, both customers and my favorite "We hire directly out of college for fresh perspectives and enthusiasm" LOL no, you hire out of college to low ball grads and pay them pennies vs industry standards.

Idk, it would make sense to please players if they want to earn more. Just buying a basic version of the game to try it is much cheaper than crown crates, houses and other stuff (not to mention crafting bag!). And long-time players are more inclined to spend money.
Adding the best gear to the new chapter already "filters out" non-paying players.

It’s the balance of costs vs income. It costs very little to install predatory gambling mechanics and sell slight recolors of existing assets. It takes a lot more time and resources to fine tune game balance and bug fix.

The big colorful world and numerous quests give a new player a lot of fluff to keep them distracted from the shallowness of gameplay, all while doing nothing that might end up being difficult in case it drives them off.

Dusk_Coven

They basically talked about it here -- https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

tarvokb14a_ESO

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

They basically talked about it here -- https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

Weird that they're only talking about this *now*. Classes have always been weirdly identityless.

phermitgb

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

They basically talked about it here -- https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

see, this article shows that they have at least a conceptual grasp of the major problem with their current game design. That the balance and effectiveness of any particular class/role/skill depends heavily on balancing different features/approaches of dps, tanking, and healing while using the different approaches to each to provide a sense of class distinctiveness.

Sadly, but probably smartly, the article does fail to address the single biggest problem with any of these balance change as seen by the eyes of the community. Namely, that (and this is admittedly my own opinion) that the community is WILDLY UNQUALIFIED to rationally approach the subject of class and ability change for the purpose of balance.

The vast majority of forum-goers are, in my experience, somewhere close to INSANELY subjective about their concept of what does or doesn't "work" at any given moment. Their idea of what is "viable" (a word I have grown to loathe as I've started to play various MMO's) and why anything is or isn't viable depends so heavily on their perfect vision of what any particular individual wants to accomplish in some particular way at any given moment that most player complaints are useless as evaluative tools for the community as a whole.

and yet here we are, day after day, with a giant library of posts by people complaining that this thing doesn't work the way they want it to (not that they usually say that - usually they say it's "broken" or "useless", but what they ACTUALLY mean most of the time is that it doesn't work the way they want it to) - I'm sooooo tired of it.

Now, don't get me wrong - there are lots of features of ESO that do feel like some marketing exec with sticky, grubby fingers has been pawing all over it to squeeze every last ounce of money out it (*cough* *cough* *crownstore* *crates* *cough*), but I don't feel marketing's fingers over any of the class balance changes.

If ZOS is failing at all on the class balance front, I'd say their biggest failure is in listening to the community at all. I have no confidence in us, as a community, having the ability to suggest class/skill/cp changes with any sense of objectivity. Don't get me wrong - there are almost certainly a handful of genuinely dedicated, genuinely objective players that have some real genius ideas for the game. However, I suspect they are mostly drowned out by the army of foaming-at-the-mouth players that are trampling each other in their desperation to get their angry forum posts at the top of the thread list every morning.

ZOS - as one of your loyal customers since launch - feel free to ignore my opinions on how you should balance your classes and skills. I have many suggestions for how you could dramatically alter ESO to better match MY PERSONAL playstyle and enjoyment, but honestly, I think I'd be a little disappointed if you actually did it. The entire game shouldn't have to alter just to make ME feel better about the game. Plus, you already have my sub money.

However, I WOULDN'T mind at all if you head on up to the marketing department, and told the marketing guys to KNOCK IT THE *** OFF with these limited time sales. Just put the entire store inventory up for sale. All day. Every day. Just as a personal favor to me.

Medivh50

This is all about money. They want to make the most amount of money. For that, they will target players that are more casual than hardcore that consistently sign in. Guys who generally do not partake in trails on a consistent basis. Casual reacquiring subscribers are their target. Hardcore players do not pay the bills, bc there are not enough of them.

phaneub17_ESO

If I were to guess they're trying to do what Blizzard did and push into E-sports by making everything as equal as possible.

Sylvermynx

phermitgb wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

They basically talked about it here -- https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

see, this article shows that they have at least a conceptual grasp of the major problem with their current game design. That the balance and effectiveness of any particular class/role/skill depends heavily on balancing different features/approaches of dps, tanking, and healing while using the different approaches to each to provide a sense of class distinctiveness.

Sadly, but probably smartly, the article does fail to address the single biggest problem with any of these balance change as seen by the eyes of the community. Namely, that (and this is admittedly my own opinion) that the community is WILDLY UNQUALIFIED to rationally approach the subject of class and ability change for the purpose of balance.

The vast majority of forum-goers are, in my experience, somewhere close to INSANELY subjective about their concept of what does or doesn't "work" at any given moment. Their idea of what is "viable" (a word I have grown to loathe as I've started to play various MMO's) and why anything is or isn't viable depends so heavily on their perfect vision of what any particular individual wants to accomplish in some particular way at any given moment that most player complaints are useless as evaluative tools for the community as a whole.

and yet here we are, day after day, with a giant library of posts by people complaining that this thing doesn't work the way they want it to (not that they usually say that - usually they say it's "broken" or "useless", but what they ACTUALLY mean most of the time is that it doesn't work the way they want it to) - I'm sooooo tired of it.

Now, don't get me wrong - there are lots of features of ESO that do feel like some marketing exec with sticky, grubby fingers has been pawing all over it to squeeze every last ounce of money out it (*cough* *cough* *crownstore* *crates* *cough*), but I don't feel marketing's fingers over any of the class balance changes.

If ZOS is failing at all on the class balance front, I'd say their biggest failure is in listening to the community at all. I have no confidence in us, as a community, having the ability to suggest class/skill/cp changes with any sense of objectivity. Don't get me wrong - there are almost certainly a handful of genuinely dedicated, genuinely objective players that have some real genius ideas for the game. However, I suspect they are mostly drowned out by the army of foaming-at-the-mouth players that are trampling each other in their desperation to get their angry forum posts at the top of the thread list every morning.

ZOS - as one of your loyal customers since launch - feel free to ignore my opinions on how you should balance your classes and skills. I have many suggestions for how you could dramatically alter ESO to better match MY PERSONAL playstyle and enjoyment, but honestly, I think I'd be a little disappointed if you actually did it. The entire game shouldn't have to alter just to make ME feel better about the game. Plus, you already have my sub money.

However, I WOULDN'T mind at all if you head on up to the marketing department, and told the marketing guys to KNOCK IT THE *** OFF with these limited time sales. Just put the entire store inventory up for sale. All day. Every day. Just as a personal favor to me.

VERY well said. I mostly agree - though I do love some of the crown crate seasons. Not this one though.... this would be the third I refuse to buy - hollowjack, xanmeer, and new moon.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Didnt they say in one of those live things a few months back that it was the hardcore end game folk they were designing stuff for? Not us casual kill a dragon and have fun types?

dem0n1k

phermitgb wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

They basically talked about it here -- https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

see, this article shows that they have at least a conceptual grasp of the major problem with their current game design. That the balance and effectiveness of any particular class/role/skill depends heavily on balancing different features/approaches of dps, tanking, and healing while using the different approaches to each to provide a sense of class distinctiveness.

Sadly, but probably smartly, the article does fail to address the single biggest problem with any of these balance change as seen by the eyes of the community. Namely, that (and this is admittedly my own opinion) that the community is WILDLY UNQUALIFIED to rationally approach the subject of class and ability change for the purpose of balance.

The vast majority of forum-goers are, in my experience, somewhere close to INSANELY subjective about their concept of what does or doesn't "work" at any given moment. Their idea of what is "viable" (a word I have grown to loathe as I've started to play various MMO's) and why anything is or isn't viable depends so heavily on their perfect vision of what any particular individual wants to accomplish in some particular way at any given moment that most player complaints are useless as evaluative tools for the community as a whole.

and yet here we are, day after day, with a giant library of posts by people complaining that this thing doesn't work the way they want it to (not that they usually say that - usually they say it's "broken" or "useless", but what they ACTUALLY mean most of the time is that it doesn't work the way they want it to) - I'm sooooo tired of it.

Now, don't get me wrong - there are lots of features of ESO that do feel like some marketing exec with sticky, grubby fingers has been pawing all over it to squeeze every last ounce of money out it (*cough* *cough* *crownstore* *crates* *cough*), but I don't feel marketing's fingers over any of the class balance changes.

If ZOS is failing at all on the class balance front, I'd say their biggest failure is in listening to the community at all. I have no confidence in us, as a community, having the ability to suggest class/skill/cp changes with any sense of objectivity. Don't get me wrong - there are almost certainly a handful of genuinely dedicated, genuinely objective players that have some real genius ideas for the game. However, I suspect they are mostly drowned out by the army of foaming-at-the-mouth players that are trampling each other in their desperation to get their angry forum posts at the top of the thread list every morning.

ZOS - as one of your loyal customers since launch - feel free to ignore my opinions on how you should balance your classes and skills. I have many suggestions for how you could dramatically alter ESO to better match MY PERSONAL playstyle and enjoyment, but honestly, I think I'd be a little disappointed if you actually did it. The entire game shouldn't have to alter just to make ME feel better about the game. Plus, you already have my sub money.

However, I WOULDN'T mind at all if you head on up to the marketing department, and told the marketing guys to KNOCK IT THE *** OFF with these limited time sales. Just put the entire store inventory up for sale. All day. Every day. Just as a personal favor to me.

How are we to know if ZOS are basing their changes to the game on player feedback or on back-end data .. or on a whim? As you say there are a wide variety of players calling for nerfs or buffs for just about every single aspect of the game. I think that often forum posters get false confirmational bias that ZOS is reacting to player feedback because somewhere, sometime, someone has asked for a change that is similar to how ZOS actually made the change.

srfrogg23

Saltisol wrote: »

Seeing all the negative posts on this forum I'm not sure who they are aiming this game at, I mean which type of player are they trying to satisfy ?

Read all the forum threads about how the game is "too easy", "too unbalanced", and anything about "mandatory builds" and I think you will find the answer to your question.

LadyNalcarya

Jhalin wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

I wonder if this is actually the case. I mean think about it. People are only going to blow so much on crowns/loot crates before they feel sick inside (you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

I wonder if they intend to somehow purge those who don't spend money anymore...I mean this sounds wacky to me, but at the same time it makes sense.

Companies are always looking for fresh blood, both customers and my favorite "We hire directly out of college for fresh perspectives and enthusiasm" LOL no, you hire out of college to low ball grads and pay them pennies vs industry standards.

Idk, it would make sense to please players if they want to earn more. Just buying a basic version of the game to try it is much cheaper than crown crates, houses and other stuff (not to mention crafting bag!). And long-time players are more inclined to spend money.
Adding the best gear to the new chapter already "filters out" non-paying players.

It’s the balance of costs vs income. It costs very little to install predatory gambling mechanics and sell slight recolors of existing assets. It takes a lot more time and resources to fine tune game balance and bug fix.

The big colorful world and numerous quests give a new player a lot of fluff to keep them distracted from the shallowness of gameplay, all while doing nothing that might end up being difficult in case it drives them off.

Yeah, but then why push such unpopular changes? Trying to re-balance everything every patch takes some time and effort, no matter how misguided it could be.
If they just want to get as much money as possible with as little effort as possible, then why would they spend their resources on something that is essentially a waste of time (because it's gonna be changed completely in another patch)?

Elsonso

Saltisol wrote: »

Seeing all the negative posts on this forum I'm not sure who they are aiming this game at, I mean which type of player are they trying to satisfy ?

It may not look like it, but long term and repeat/recurring players.

rpa

MMOs generally are targeted to long term players who play only one or few games for years.

Devs may actually have realized and maybe even convinced the publisher that if nothing is done and they just keep churning out "chapters" and dlc with no concern to balance, performance and quality the game becomes impossible to economically maintain in playable state.

Even the most obedient consumer lemming is unlikely to keep throwing money in a game which is impossible to play. And that's why annoying and unpopular tweaks changes to combat, skills and gear will happen and probably will keep happening for some time.

I don't like constant changing and unstability and I'm certainly not going to put hard effort or any money in the game while it's in this state. But I'm not complaining about changes because I feel what developers are trying to do is necessary.

Fixing a large pile of tangled spaghetti is much more difficult, time consuming and expensive than doing software orderly and disciplined from the very start. I think it's already too late and they fail, but perhaps I'm wrong.

logarifmik

The one with cash, obviously. It's capitalism, comrade. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

starkerealm

Raideen wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Basically ZOS is aiming for high churn, so, no one. They wanna pull in new people, and if they leave after spending some money then they don’t really care.

I wonder if this is actually the case. I mean think about it. People are only going to blow so much on crowns/loot crates before they feel sick inside (you have all had that feeling of buyers remorse after spending 150 bucks on a house or 100 bucks on 30 loot crates only to get potions and tattoos and some lipstick).

I wonder if they intend to somehow purge those who don't spend money anymore...I mean this sounds wacky to me, but at the same time it makes sense.

Companies are always looking for fresh blood, both customers and my favorite "We hire directly out of college for fresh perspectives and enthusiasm" LOL no, you hire out of college to low ball grads and pay them pennies vs industry standards.

If the goal was high churn, it would be F2P.

redlink1979

@Saltisol The community doesn't resume to the forum.

mague

Saltisol wrote: »

Seeing all the negative posts on this forum I'm not sure who they are aiming this game at, I mean which type of player are they trying to satisfy ?

forum != playerbase

There is no forced spending of money and i think they do what they like. Why do players always think that any dev wants to bend for a certain target audience ? Even indies try different things in sequels.

I logged in, talked to Sai and then went into the pub. On the way every other NPC has the ability to small talk without being part of any quest. In the pub are three new books. Two of them very important to the game. Lore about the Khajiit and about the cities history. The 3rd is a poem. So much content just from Sai to the pub.

Thats ESO how i know it.

Went to a temple to change morphs of Swarm and Arctic Wind. Checked the cost and did some fights overland. All fine.

Looking forward to do the story arc and witch festival.

LadyAstrum

People who like to buy crowns. The rest is a bonus.

Vlad9425

They aim to please all the questers and people who go round picking flowers who don’t give a crap how crap the game feels to play now while those of us who actually do all the content have our builds and classes nerfed every damn patch.

Gythral

The 'never seen a game in their life shareholder'

MajBludd

The ones that spend a ton of cash on the crown store, rp, and generally don't care about doing trials, or pvp.

FierceSam

I think ZOS are trying to please/address a number of different types of player, including

Solo questers - ZOS are delivering interesting and fun content
Home developers - new homes, furniture and furniture recipes
Dungeon/trials group players - new dungeons and trials
Elite PvE - trying to develop new challenges while limiting dps burn tactics
PvP - trying to balance classes and races to improve gameplay and avoid a one build rules meta

These groups aren’t mutually exclusive, players can belong to one, many or all.

One of ZOS’s challenges is that players are more numerous and infinitely more capable than they are. Players will find and exploit any opportunity to ‘game’ the game, which in some cases (eg the ‘just burn the boss, ignore the mechanics’ or ‘everyone wear Sloads in PvP’) is counter productive. So some of their work will involve changing skills, passives etc to promote more variation or to ensure players have to do more of the mechanics.

I think one challenge ZOS has is that at the more popular end of the game (solo questing etc) players are only going to notice improvements, while at the more challenging end (PvP, endgame dungeons/trials, forum members) you’re only going to notice or be bothered by the negatives.

Rungar

they are trying to provide content for everyone from the super casual to super hardcore. I guess they see this as their best chance at making money.

that inherently pisses some people off. My only real personal pet peeve is the extremely flawed combat system and weak dungeon design. Otherwise I think they have made a wonderful product.