Will New Moon Acolyte overperform? [NOT A NERF THREAD BUT A DISCUSSION THREAD]

Szende · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

The set do not give max stat or recovery. I feel the crit chance part wasted. So no, its not overperform. In solo pvp perspective i not gonna touch it

Weisstag · October 2019

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

SodanTok wrote: »

Weisstag wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

mcb123 wrote: »

You can 1 bar it so itl be OP. A lot of builds stay on the defense bar for a long time meaning you wont have the cost increase then switch bars and burst someone. If you ask me it will get nerfed pretty swiftly.

OMG SPRIGGANS CAN BE 1 BARD OPOPOPOPOPOP

yeah.

Any damage set can be 1 bard. Infact, virtually every stam build mainbars a damage set and runs masters bow or black rose dw backbar in pvp
In pve, maelstrom back bar.

The cost won’t affect back bar, but neither will damage bonus.
The cost is a counter to the bonus. No bonus, no curse

For example, Vigor is usually run on Backbar, you will lose all the 5p Weapon damage for the heal, making it weaker. But also won't get cost increase.

but when u vigor to barswap you get only 1 unbuffed tick

Vigor healing doesnt get increased by swapping/gaining higher damage in middle of its runtime.

now that sucks 😁 I need to test it just to be sure

Deathlord92 · October 2019

I think the 5% cost increase is good enough and besides this opens up more options for hybrid builds and I’m actually looking forward to trying it for the first time.

Dojohoda · October 2019

I don't know, it depends on what is being switched out, right?

This set seems like another great option for players but, with no stats offered and a stat drain, it is not entirely the cat's pajamas.

kathandira · October 2019

Sooo, no one going to post any parses?

This is a whole lot of theory crafting with 0 proof in either direction.

I'd do it, but i'm a console pleb...so one of you PC folks. Lets see some real numbers here.

Muzzick · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling that people who claim this set will overperform, won't use it anyway, but they just want to make sure that no one else will use it too ?

I feel like some people are just lazy and don't want any more useful sets in the game

kathandira wrote: »

Sooo, no one going to post any parses?

This is a whole lot of theory crafting with 0 proof in either direction.

I'd do it, but i'm a console pleb...so one of you PC folks. Lets see some real numbers here.

Agree about the parse. Also the "burden of proof" with a parse should be on whoever wants a change in the set, (in either direction) otherwise it should be left as is

Jodynn · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Sustaining without a cost increase is hard enough.

5% increase, is more than enough.

gepe87 · October 2019

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

My only concern is about sustain race: breton match well with this set and racials shouldnt define your performance on pvp. If this become meta then will be essential to became breton.
"Oh but you can play mag with stam races or another non sustain race. You can play but its not optimal" - everyone knows thats a lie.

iRaivyne · October 2019

I swear, you had best not get this set nerf-hammered before the patch drops! We need nice things!

Celestro · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Parses were already done for this set and the previous thread about it died however long ago (I assumed) because it' was determined to not be BiS. Definitely still useful but yeah.

Squidgaurd · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Nah its all gucci.

Emma_Overload · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

gepe87 wrote: »

My only concern is about sustain race: breton match well with this set and racials shouldnt define your performance on pvp. If this become meta then will be essential to became breton.
"Oh but you can play mag with stam races or another non sustain race. You can play but its not optimal" - everyone knows thats a lie.

A Breton with this set will perform almost exactly the same as an Altmer or Dunmer with Julianos. Did you forget that the other Magicka races have a Spell Power bonus that Breton's don't?

Drdeath20 · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

I reach penetraion floor with only 9 CP in my trial guild.

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx · October 2019

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

That looks absolutely OP af, while at the same time looks like a turn in the right direction.

So ponder this:
How many countless sets are there that provide basically everything, with no downside to them? Lots.
This set reminds me of Molag Kena, it gives an AWESOME bonus, but comes with a (relatively) steep cost - both in the form of increased cost of abilities funny enough.

I think the set is overloaded, but it has a downside to it which we never see in sets anymore, so maybe this is a sign of times changing and bringing back skill and thinking. Hmmmm

Weisstag · October 2019

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

Celestro wrote: »

Parses were already done for this set and the previous thread about it died however long ago (I assumed) because it' was determined to not be BiS. Definitely still useful but yeah.

parses don't show pvp usefulness

Celestro · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Weisstag wrote: »

Celestro wrote: »

Parses were already done for this set and the previous thread about it died however long ago (I assumed) because it' was determined to not be BiS. Definitely still useful but yeah.

parses don't show pvp usefulness

That was in reference to the individuals asking for parses. Keep up.

Kolzki · October 2019

I think for mag pve this is one that can only really be tested in trials. The question for me there is whether I can still run max stat food in a given trial if I wear this with false god. If so then nma + false god could become bis for certain fights. If I would have to swap to regen food then i’d expect mothers sorrow should be better.

I think that the fact that I have to consider this is great, particular if it opens up the possibility of different set combinations being bis on different races. They’ve done a really good job with the new sets this patch.

Chelo · October 2019

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling that people who claim this set will overperform, won't use it anyway, but they just want to make sure that no one else will use it too ?

I will definitely use it. But as I said numerous times, with this set, Julianos and Hunding lose their purpose to exist...

sentientomega · October 2019

Chelo wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling that people who claim this set will overperform, won't use it anyway, but they just want to make sure that no one else will use it too ?

I will definitely use it. But as I said numerous times, with this set, Julianos and Hunding lose their purpose to exist...

Not if you pair with Julianos or Hunding...

Celestro · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Chelo wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling that people who claim this set will overperform, won't use it anyway, but they just want to make sure that no one else will use it too ?

I will definitely use it. But as I said numerous times, with this set, Julianos and Hunding lose their purpose to exist...

I mean they've been obsolete for a long while. People have stopped using these for other Weapon and Spell Damage increasing sets for years.

Austinseph1 · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Sustain will be bad enough, I wouldn't touch a cost increase with a 10 foot pole.

Davadin · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Celestro wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling that people who claim this set will overperform, won't use it anyway, but they just want to make sure that no one else will use it too ?

I will definitely use it. But as I said numerous times, with this set, Julianos and Hunding lose their purpose to exist...

I mean they've been obsolete for a long while. People have stopped using these for other Weapon and Spell Damage increasing sets for years.

i still do hunding for many player both from guild or zone chat. cp160 stuff. it's still a great and cheap set for majority of players.

only end-game veterans stop using these.

Celestro · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Davadin wrote: »

Celestro wrote: »

Chelo wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling that people who claim this set will overperform, won't use it anyway, but they just want to make sure that no one else will use it too ?

I will definitely use it. But as I said numerous times, with this set, Julianos and Hunding lose their purpose to exist...

I mean they've been obsolete for a long while. People have stopped using these for other Weapon and Spell Damage increasing sets for years.

i still do hunding for many player both from guild or zone chat. cp160 stuff. it's still a great and cheap set for majority of players.

only end-game veterans stop using these.

That's fair and understandable and maybe a lot would be content with something that's easy to get and affordable from the start but is that where most will stop? I can't help but imagine they'll eventually farm stuff, trial or non-trial, many of which are worthy enough to serve as replacements over the beginner gear, including gear aimed at PvP.

Ultimately though, some stuff becoming obsolete is a given, especially when older sets aren't regularly updated to meet current standards all the time. Seems like the combat team is trying to fix that a bit but something better comes along or presently exists, so something similarly is inherently obsolete (or just 'weak' in general like many sets). Not exactly a good thing but just the way things have been for some time.

SirDopey · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

chrightt wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sorry to ruin your bubble mate but since when stat based sets are so OP we nerf them before going live?

You ever heard of alteration mastery set?

(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Reduces the cost of all of your abilities by 6%.

Now look on both sets. NMA gives you penalty almost equal to this 5 pc bonus, so in the end you get almost nothing from this set when math is done. If you have already toped damage and can't go any lower on sustain this set will force you to use more sustain which in the end leads to balancing things out.

This is very well designed set for once!

This is a really bad comparison. There’s a reason no one runs alteration, because it is ***. Just get mag gen like Lich and you’ll have more sustain for magicka or Amber plasm for more sustain on both magicka and stamina with the only bonus alteration giving you being 6% reduction on ultimate cost.

Back to the main point.
I initially thought that this set won’t be overperforming other sets but an item should have equal trade off. This set provides 182 more damage than Hunding and Julianos 182/129 =1.41 stat density worth of stats. 1.41* resource regen = 1.41*129 = 182 points of resource regen (in case you cared about the detailed calculation but weapon damage/stamgen and spell power/Mag gen is 1:1 so this should be no surprise.

Right now, if you have around 2k main resource generation let’s say, you use up resources 5% faster. 2000/1.05 = 1904. If you have 1904 mag gen while using Julianos you will be running out of magicka as quickly as a 2000 mag gen NMA.

Let us do this for 2500 mag gen. 2500/1.05 = 2381 which means that at 2381 mag gen NMA is only 119 points more mag gen you need to sustain your set. Compare that with 182 extra points of spell damage this set clearly puts stat density a bit further and burst is also very crucial in PvP and even some PvE situations. The higher damage can easily be offset by more sustain to be worth its cost. Do you run builds with 3k gen? Sure do the calculations 3000/1.05 = 2857, which is 143. If you run builds with over 3k generation.... you probably have better ways to fix builds.

As for the original resource pool, let us assume 30k resources. 30000/1.05= 28571. 1439 resource spent faster?! That is worth less than the average skill! Basically, you run out of resources from above calculations + half a skill quicker due to max resource pool.

Also, yes, ultimate cost is increased by 5% but I think it is offset sufficiently by the fact that block, roll dodge, break free cost are not increased by the 5% cost increase. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, Positive gaining resources like investing in mag gen or stam gen is increased by bonuses like light armor, medium armor, CP and so on for bonuses. 129 points of generation produces more than 129 of generation on stat sheet. 5 light would give you 129* 1.2 = 155. However 5% increase in cost is not multiplied by extra detrimental bonuses. This, investing in more sustain and using NMA is just better than using a lot of potential alternatives.

TL;DR devs have *** balance on % cost reduction sets leading them to believe 5% increase in cost is a lot more than it actually is. NMA is a high density stat set for spell damage/weapon damage that strictly outperforms Julianos and Hundings at any magicka/stamina generation cutoff of a regular build. If you swap out hundings or Julianos for NMA you will most likely see a bigger performance boost than any amount of sustain issue that you might run into.

P.S. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_AntonioP don’t know who manages what but you can hire me to fix your numbers because from the looks of it our patch notes are whack af and so are your sets. Read calculations and rework NMA to cost more while other “cost reduction” sets to provide more cost reduction please. It’s not like stacking 6k resource gen and finally making cost reduction sets worth their value is a viable strategy.

lol this argument is fundamentally flawed. You can't use someone's regeneration to calculate the impact of a 5% increase in cost, you can only do it from resource drains.

I could have 800 recovery but only cast 4 skills a minute or I could have 2.5k recovery and need to cast 60 skills a minute......

SirDopey · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Overall shacklebreaker will probably be a better option for PVP.

As a stamwarden on my front bar the 5 skills average out to 2428 on live in cost, the extra 5% will make that 2550.
My backbar, which is defensive, is loaded with magic skills as thats what I have to choose from in the warden playbook. 5% will take my average magic cost from 3164 to 3322.

So, to maintain the same level of sustain I'll have to replace 2x physical harm glyphs with 1 reduce stam cost or increase recovery glyph and 1 magic reduce cost or increase recovery. That means forgoing 348 in weapon damage to be at the same level.....

Nordic__Knights · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Why do I have a feeling that people who claim this set will overperform, won't use it anyway, but they just want to make sure that no one else will use it too ?

Because your 100% RIGHT!!!!! They see something that might let others get better builds and do better then themselves so its nurf time

Drdeath20 · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Well it definitely raises the bar for other crafted sets. Alot of craftable sets need the same treatment with their 2-4 set bonuses set up.

Some halfway decent sets that have a 2 piece bonus that is strictly for mag like spell crit and a 3 piece bonuses which only helps stam like weapon crit. If it were treated how NMA is that would just be 1 either/or set bonus thus making it more comparable.

Jodynn · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

They won't be obsolete, some will be niche as they are now, some will be strong, some will be comparable.

Nerf nerf nerf; Have you tested the PTS?

Everything is nerfed, this isn't going to be a groundbreaking difference; Crafty Alfiq in pvp will be better or paired with it; but bright-throat will be comparable and counteractive as well.
Spell strat will be better in PvE or even julianos/burning spellweave because of a line of spell pen is useless in PvE compared to spell crit/magicka/spell damage even ele succ for niche classes like DK and Necro then you will alway have either Siroria or FG so it's one more set you can have why are you crying over a little diversity?

That's just Mag

For Stam in PvE Crit set will be better than weapon damage and relequen/lokk is basically required so this set isn't going to win over.

In PvP it will be strong but that's good, there will still be other sets that are strong and comparable, hundings will provide more healing because pen doesn't give healing; Ravager gives health, Seventh gives healing, Briar gives healing and a lot of crit.

It's all about how you build, and gives options, it's not overpowered, you have to look at all the factors.

Doomsaying before Live, damn, go test something and stop being a paper warrior.

Chelo · October 2019

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

Harrdarrzarr wrote: »

Isn't this the set that only has its crafting location unlocked when you did all Elsweyr and Dragonhold main questlines? If so, then it should stay the way it is just to annoy those that hate questing ghehehehe mwahahah etc.

Just wait until people put the crafting tables in Guild Houses...

Jodynn · October 2019

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

There are so many useless sets now that one set looks promising you already want it nerfed so it's useless like the other 90%?