Will New Moon Acolyte overperform? [NOT A NERF THREAD BUT A DISCUSSION THREAD]

RouDeR

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

Don't worry it will last for only 1-2 months before it cost increase gets to 10% or its weapon and spell damage reduced to ~380

Weisstag

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

RouDeR wrote: »

Don't worry it will last for only 1-2 months before it cost increase gets to 10% or its weapon and spell damage reduced to ~380

I fear that they will yoink it harder than they should

InvictusApollo

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Weisstag wrote: »

Dominion_Nightblade wrote: »

The only way this set will be good is if you are a ganker, or are zerg surfing and only engaging in quick battles for pvp. Any long battle will notice the 5% over time for sure. The only way I see myself running this set is on my over sustained nightblade in a CP enabled environment. Besides that, I wont touch this set.

iam already oversustaining with full damage build on my pvp raid built stamden, this will just add to my already tarded burst. Tried it on pts and it didn't feel bad at all if I kept up netch

Maybe the issue is that your raid group is overperforming. If that is a ballgroup in which you have all the heals possible while teammembers body block you while giving you synergies for sustain, then the issue is definitely with balance of ballgroups vs anything else.

Weisstag

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Weisstag wrote: »

Dominion_Nightblade wrote: »

The only way this set will be good is if you are a ganker, or are zerg surfing and only engaging in quick battles for pvp. Any long battle will notice the 5% over time for sure. The only way I see myself running this set is on my over sustained nightblade in a CP enabled environment. Besides that, I wont touch this set.

iam already oversustaining with full damage build on my pvp raid built stamden, this will just add to my already tarded burst. Tried it on pts and it didn't feel bad at all if I kept up netch

Maybe the issue is that your raid group is overperforming. If that is a ballgroup in which you have all the heals possible while teammembers body block you while giving you synergies for sustain, then the issue is definitely with balance of ballgroups vs anything else.

well someone has to fight enemy groups

Bigevilpeter

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

It will outshine them but you need a sustain race and so you lose damage so unless you are a beast in sustaining it wont be better

chrightt

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

Mayrael wrote: »

Sorry to ruin your bubble mate but since when stat based sets are so OP we nerf them before going live?

You ever heard of alteration mastery set?

(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Reduces the cost of all of your abilities by 6%.

Now look on both sets. NMA gives you penalty almost equal to this 5 pc bonus, so in the end you get almost nothing from this set when math is done. If you have already toped damage and can't go any lower on sustain this set will force you to use more sustain which in the end leads to balancing things out.

This is very well designed set for once!

This is a really bad comparison. There’s a reason no one runs alteration, because it is ***. Just get mag gen like Lich and you’ll have more sustain for magicka or Amber plasm for more sustain on both magicka and stamina with the only bonus alteration giving you being 6% reduction on ultimate cost.

Back to the main point.
I initially thought that this set won’t be overperforming other sets but an item should have equal trade off. This set provides 182 more damage than Hunding and Julianos 182/129 =1.41 stat density worth of stats. 1.41* resource regen = 1.41*129 = 182 points of resource regen (in case you cared about the detailed calculation but weapon damage/stamgen and spell power/Mag gen is 1:1 so this should be no surprise.

Right now, if you have around 2k main resource generation let’s say, you use up resources 5% faster. 2000/1.05 = 1904. If you have 1904 mag gen while using Julianos you will be running out of magicka as quickly as a 2000 mag gen NMA.

Let us do this for 2500 mag gen. 2500/1.05 = 2381 which means that at 2381 mag gen NMA is only 119 points more mag gen you need to sustain your set. Compare that with 182 extra points of spell damage this set clearly puts stat density a bit further and burst is also very crucial in PvP and even some PvE situations. The higher damage can easily be offset by more sustain to be worth its cost. Do you run builds with 3k gen? Sure do the calculations 3000/1.05 = 2857, which is 143. If you run builds with over 3k generation.... you probably have better ways to fix builds.

As for the original resource pool, let us assume 30k resources. 30000/1.05= 28571. 1439 resource spent faster?! That is worth less than the average skill! Basically, you run out of resources from above calculations + half a skill quicker due to max resource pool.

Also, yes, ultimate cost is increased by 5% but I think it is offset sufficiently by the fact that block, roll dodge, break free cost are not increased by the 5% cost increase. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, Positive gaining resources like investing in mag gen or stam gen is increased by bonuses like light armor, medium armor, CP and so on for bonuses. 129 points of generation produces more than 129 of generation on stat sheet. 5 light would give you 129* 1.2 = 155. However 5% increase in cost is not multiplied by extra detrimental bonuses. This, investing in more sustain and using NMA is just better than using a lot of potential alternatives.

TL;DR devs have *** balance on % cost reduction sets leading them to believe 5% increase in cost is a lot more than it actually is. NMA is a high density stat set for spell damage/weapon damage that strictly outperforms Julianos and Hundings at any magicka/stamina generation cutoff of a regular build. If you swap out hundings or Julianos for NMA you will most likely see a bigger performance boost than any amount of sustain issue that you might run into.

P.S. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_AntonioP don’t know who manages what but you can hire me to fix your numbers because from the looks of it our patch notes are whack af and so are your sets. Read calculations and rework NMA to cost more while other “cost reduction” sets to provide more cost reduction please. It’s not like stacking 6k resource gen and finally making cost reduction sets worth their value is a viable strategy.

Cinbri

In CP it easy to sustain so set will be bis.
In noCP increase cost will hurt a lot, so forced to invest resorces into sustain that removing reason to use it. Craftable dragonguard set looks more viable option for noCP.

Drdeath20

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

It doesnt overperform bcz penetration on its 4 piece is a waste and the penalty might be small but is noticable

Weisstag

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

chrightt wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sorry to ruin your bubble mate but since when stat based sets are so OP we nerf them before going live?

You ever heard of alteration mastery set?

(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Reduces the cost of all of your abilities by 6%.

Now look on both sets. NMA gives you penalty almost equal to this 5 pc bonus, so in the end you get almost nothing from this set when math is done. If you have already toped damage and can't go any lower on sustain this set will force you to use more sustain which in the end leads to balancing things out.

This is very well designed set for once!

This is a really bad comparison. There’s a reason no one runs alteration, because it is ***. Just get mag gen like Lich and you’ll have more sustain for magicka or Amber plasm for more sustain on both magicka and stamina with the only bonus alteration giving you being 6% reduction on ultimate cost.

Back to the main point.
I initially thought that this set won’t be overperforming other sets but an item should have equal trade off. This set provides 182 more damage than Hunding and Julianos 182/129 =1.41 stat density worth of stats. 1.41* resource regen = 1.41*129 = 182 points of resource regen (in case you cared about the detailed calculation but weapon damage/stamgen and spell power/Mag gen is 1:1 so this should be no surprise.

Right now, if you have around 2k main resource generation let’s say, you use up resources 5% faster. 2000/1.05 = 1904. If you have 1904 mag gen while using Julianos you will be running out of magicka as quickly as a 2000 mag gen NMA.

Let us do this for 2500 mag gen. 2500/1.05 = 2381 which means that at 2381 mag gen NMA is only 119 points more mag gen you need to sustain your set. Compare that with 182 extra points of spell damage this set clearly puts stat density a bit further and burst is also very crucial in PvP and even some PvE situations. The higher damage can easily be offset by more sustain to be worth its cost. Do you run builds with 3k gen? Sure do the calculations 3000/1.05 = 2857, which is 143. If you run builds with over 3k generation.... you probably have better ways to fix builds.

As for the original resource pool, let us assume 30k resources. 30000/1.05= 28571. 1439 resource spent faster?! That is worth less than the average skill! Basically, you run out of resources from above calculations + half a skill quicker due to max resource pool.

Also, yes, ultimate cost is increased by 5% but I think it is offset sufficiently by the fact that block, roll dodge, break free cost are not increased by the 5% cost increase. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, Positive gaining resources like investing in mag gen or stam gen is increased by bonuses like light armor, medium armor, CP and so on for bonuses. 129 points of generation produces more than 129 of generation on stat sheet. 5 light would give you 129* 1.2 = 155. However 5% increase in cost is not multiplied by extra detrimental bonuses. This, investing in more sustain and using NMA is just better than using a lot of potential alternatives.

TL;DR devs have *** balance on % cost reduction sets leading them to believe 5% increase in cost is a lot more than it actually is. NMA is a high density stat set for spell damage/weapon damage that strictly outperforms Julianos and Hundings at any magicka/stamina generation cutoff of a regular build. If you swap out hundings or Julianos for NMA you will most likely see a bigger performance boost than any amount of sustain issue that you might run into.

P.S. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_BillE @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_AntonioP don’t know who manages what but you can hire me to fix your numbers because from the looks of it our patch notes are whack af and so are your sets. Read calculations and rework NMA to cost more while other “cost reduction” sets to provide more cost reduction please. It’s not like stacking 6k resource gen and finally making cost reduction sets worth their value is a viable strategy.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

It doesnt overperform bcz penetration on its 4 piece is a waste and the penalty might be small but is noticable

I'll take any pen I can take for my pvp raid toon but for pve ye it's a waste

Canned_Apples

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

A hybrid Stam Sorc... the things dreams are made of... if only.
Do you guys think it would be viable in no-cp?

Tannus15

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

2 patches ago this would have been an awesome set as we were over sustaining.

This patch sustain is in the toilet and this set is DOA. The last thing I want right now is more sustain problems.

Dusk_Coven

Mayrael wrote: »

Sorry to ruin your bubble mate but since when stat based sets are so OP we nerf them before going live?

I think you are missing the point of PTS. The point is to test it before it goes live.
Once it goes live there'll be more crying if it gets nerfed.
If it underperforms and gets boosted later there'll be less whining.

ccfeeling

You guys should complain after this set goes live, zos needs more data.

Its garbage right now.

leepalmer95

Mayrael wrote: »

Sorry to ruin your bubble mate but since when stat based sets are so OP we nerf them before going live?

You ever heard of alteration mastery set?

(2 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(3 items) Adds 129 Magicka Recovery
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Reduces the cost of all of your abilities by 6%.

Now look on both sets. NMA gives you penalty almost equal to this 5 pc bonus, so in the end you get almost nothing from this set when math is done. If you have already toped damage and can't go any lower on sustain this set will force you to use more sustain which in the end leads to balancing things out.

This is very well designed set for once!

Alteration reduces everything by 6%.

At least it used too, haven't used it in a while, this includes block/ dodge roll etc..

leepalmer95

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

5% cost increase is huge tons of sets give plus 400 with no trade off. This set might actually give Hybrids hope.

To be fair this set can be buffed by your brutality/ sorcery buffs while others can't. And this set also buffs your heals while other can't

Arciris

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

I really don't understand this crusade against a non-proc, crafted set.

Unless someone really wants to save some gold mats because they don't want to trade their Armor of Truth, Ravager or whatever for like 50 weapon damage more (or less) and a 5% cost penalty lol.

Because that's the trade off here. For PvP, when you need the burst, you can either proc Briarheart for like 40 weapon damage less but you get a small heal... or use this and get a 5% cost penalty.

5% cost penalty for somewhere around 30 to 60 weapon damage.... and all this drama.... omegalul.

For PvE it doesn't beat Rele+Locke, so not BIS so what's the point?

What a monumental waste of time...

Arciris

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Sorry to ruin your bubble mate but since when stat based sets are so OP we nerf them before going live?

I think you are missing the point of PTS. The point is to test it before it goes live.
Once it goes live there'll be more crying if it gets nerfed.
If it underperforms and gets boosted later there'll be less whining.

Boosted later.... I'm sorry, I can't resist.
Do you have any idea how many sets are waiting to be "boosted later"?
So now we ask to nerf things in fear they might get nerfed later? Just lol.

ThePhantomThorn

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

*Evil laughter
New moon + Spriggans
Snipe + ambush + incap
Ded

Drdeath20

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Theres a few sets that for pve seem much stronger depending on some condition's

Mothers sorrow
Elemental succession
BSW
Spell strategist
Perfected sioria
Perfected false gods

Heck i think wearing 1 5piece might be the new meta come next patch.

5-3 (weapon set)- 2(monster set) - 2 (asylum or brp weapon)-2 (malestrom wrapon)

MLGProPlayer

Drdeath20 wrote: »

It doesnt overperform bcz penetration on its 4 piece is a waste and the penalty might be small but is noticable

The penetration is actually very strong. It means you don't need to allocate any points to spell erosion on a magicka character.

With that said, it's likely only going to be viable on Breton (where it will probably be BiS). Would like to see a few more parses before passing judgement though.

ThePhantomThorn

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

I’m going to say this:
I think it’s mostly fine. The cost increase doesn’t seem a lot on paper but remember the sustain nerfs this patch? 5% will be a lot
Oh and it affects ults.
I think 8% would be the sweet spot, but I’m ok with 5%. To me it’s a gank set.
Lets compare it to swamp raider and hunting’s rage (just for numbers)
Swamp:
400wep damage BUT only to poison/disease abilities.
New moon:
480ish wep damage BUT adds a 5% cost increase.
Hundings:
300ish wep damage. No conditions

Maby a little overtuned with only a 5% but I think 8% would make the damage increase fair.

Emma_Overload

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

I have yet to see ANYONE offer a coherent, plausible explanation for why they want this set nerfed. Rambling on about statistics and formulas for multiple paragraphs doesn't mean anything to me.

What I want to know is why YOU want this set nerfed. What's in it for YOU? Because I can't imagine any legitimate reason to not want this set as an option. Because it is a hybrid stat set, all builds could potentially run it. Because it is a crafted set, all players could easily aquire it. What possible reason could you have for wanting to deprive the entire player base of a set that benefits everyone equally?

I suspect the answer to my question is that the nerfers have selfish, petty reasons for wanting to delete this set. That's why they are hiding their motivations behind statistics and formulas. They don't want their bad motives exposed!

ThePhantomThorn

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I have yet to see ANYONE offer a coherent, plausible explanation for why they want this set nerfed. Rambling on about statistics and formulas for multiple paragraphs doesn't mean anything to me.

What I want to know is why YOU want this set nerfed. What's in it for YOU? Because I can't imagine any legitimate reason to not want this set as an option. Because it is a hybrid stat set, all builds could potentially run it. Because it is a crafted set, all players could easily aquire it. What possible reason could you have for wanting to deprive the entire player base of a set that benefits everyone equally?

I suspect the answer to my question is that the nerfers have selfish, petty reasons for wanting to delete this set. That's why they are hiding their motivations behind statistics and formulas. They don't want their bad motives exposed!

Yep. I like it how it is. It may be a little to strong if on live but as I said above. If u compare it to similar sets then not op at all. Maybe 5% is low, but if some players had their way they would make it 10% and the like. They need to look at it from all angles. Stop just looking at it on paper and compare it to other sets.
It will never be stronger than relequen or lokkestiz

MCBIZZLE300

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

You can 1 bar it so itl be OP. A lot of builds stay on the defense bar for a long time meaning you wont have the cost increase then switch bars and burst someone. If you ask me it will get nerfed pretty swiftly. I'm looking at it from a pvp standpoint.

ThePhantomThorn

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

mcb123 wrote: »

You can 1 bar it so itl be OP. A lot of builds stay on the defense bar for a long time meaning you wont have the cost increase then switch bars and burst someone. If you ask me it will get nerfed pretty swiftly.

OMG SPRIGGANS CAN BE 1 BARD OPOPOPOPOPOP

yeah.

Any damage set can be 1 bard. Infact, virtually every stam build mainbars a damage set and runs masters bow or black rose dw backbar in pvp
In pve, maelstrom back bar.

The cost won’t affect back bar, but neither will damage bonus.
The cost is a counter to the bonus. No bonus, no curse

ThePedge

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

mcb123 wrote: »

You can 1 bar it so itl be OP. A lot of builds stay on the defense bar for a long time meaning you wont have the cost increase then switch bars and burst someone. If you ask me it will get nerfed pretty swiftly.

OMG SPRIGGANS CAN BE 1 BARD OPOPOPOPOPOP

yeah.

Any damage set can be 1 bard. Infact, virtually every stam build mainbars a damage set and runs masters bow or black rose dw backbar in pvp
In pve, maelstrom back bar.

The cost won’t affect back bar, but neither will damage bonus.
The cost is a counter to the bonus. No bonus, no curse

For example, Vigor is usually run on Backbar, you will lose all the 5p Weapon damage for the heal, making it weaker. But also won't get cost increase.

ThePhantomThorn

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

ThePedge wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

mcb123 wrote: »

You can 1 bar it so itl be OP. A lot of builds stay on the defense bar for a long time meaning you wont have the cost increase then switch bars and burst someone. If you ask me it will get nerfed pretty swiftly.

OMG SPRIGGANS CAN BE 1 BARD OPOPOPOPOPOP

yeah.

Any damage set can be 1 bard. Infact, virtually every stam build mainbars a damage set and runs masters bow or black rose dw backbar in pvp
In pve, maelstrom back bar.

The cost won’t affect back bar, but neither will damage bonus.
The cost is a counter to the bonus. No bonus, no curse

For example, Vigor is usually run on Backbar, you will lose all the 5p Weapon damage for the heal, making it weaker. But also won't get cost increase.

This

Weisstag

Yes it will outshine sets with similar bonuses in its current state

ThePedge wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

mcb123 wrote: »

You can 1 bar it so itl be OP. A lot of builds stay on the defense bar for a long time meaning you wont have the cost increase then switch bars and burst someone. If you ask me it will get nerfed pretty swiftly.

OMG SPRIGGANS CAN BE 1 BARD OPOPOPOPOPOP

yeah.

Any damage set can be 1 bard. Infact, virtually every stam build mainbars a damage set and runs masters bow or black rose dw backbar in pvp
In pve, maelstrom back bar.

The cost won’t affect back bar, but neither will damage bonus.
The cost is a counter to the bonus. No bonus, no curse

For example, Vigor is usually run on Backbar, you will lose all the 5p Weapon damage for the heal, making it weaker. But also won't get cost increase.

but when u vigor to barswap you get only 1 unbuffed tick

Arciris

No it won't overperform and 5% is a enough of cost increase

Note: I will be using Hundings and Julianos as a baseline only because they are also crafted sets. Keep in mind they are many more sets that are better then those two, 6 traits crafted sets, and that they are used mostly as fillers while farming for better gear.

Since a player character always has a race, let's see how this sets performs compared to races passives.
As a baseline, I will be using two damage races: Orc and Altmer and I will be using 3 sustain races, Imperial Breton and Redguard.

Stamina:
- Imperial: passive 3% cost reduction, Orc passive: +258 weapon damage.
When wearing NMA, Imperial gets +2% cost increase and -77 weapon damage than an Orc wearing Hundings.
Cost of wearing this set is higher than a race passive, while the benefit of using it over Hundings is lower than a race passive

- Redguard: 8% cost reduction on weapon abilities only
When wearing NMA, you get +3% cost reduction as long as your bars are filled with weapon abilities only (including ultimate) and you get -77 weapon damage than Orc wearing Hundings.
With a condition attached to use only weapon abilities, you use a fraction of your race passive to get a fraction of an Orc race passive.

Magika:
Breton: 8% cost reduction - does not apply to Ultimate; Altmer: +258 spell damage
When wearing NMA, Breton gets 3% cost reduction, 5% Ultimate cost increase -77 spell damage over an Altmer wearing Julianos

Conclusion: NMA needs a slight BUFF. Since increasing damage might cause issues with PvP one shot gank builds, lowering the Kiss-Curse effect to 4% cost increase seems reasonable.

Or rework the Kiss-Curse effect to something like "8% less healing taken" or "Lowers your spell and physical resistance by 2000" (grossly estimated numbers) in order to reinforce the Glass Cannon, High Risk/High Reward feel that Kiss-Curse effects provide. Cost increase is not really a Risk, it's more like an Annoyance.

In its current form, the only situations where this set might be used are:
- PvP gank builds (they may gain a slight weapon damage over what they are currently using, like top 60 weapon damage more, which is laughable.
- Hybrid builds. And we all know how Hybrids underperform and with this set, Hybrids will just underperform a bit less


edit typos

SodanTok

Weisstag wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

ThePhantomThorn wrote: »

mcb123 wrote: »

You can 1 bar it so itl be OP. A lot of builds stay on the defense bar for a long time meaning you wont have the cost increase then switch bars and burst someone. If you ask me it will get nerfed pretty swiftly.

OMG SPRIGGANS CAN BE 1 BARD OPOPOPOPOPOP

yeah.

Any damage set can be 1 bard. Infact, virtually every stam build mainbars a damage set and runs masters bow or black rose dw backbar in pvp
In pve, maelstrom back bar.

The cost won’t affect back bar, but neither will damage bonus.
The cost is a counter to the bonus. No bonus, no curse

For example, Vigor is usually run on Backbar, you will lose all the 5p Weapon damage for the heal, making it weaker. But also won't get cost increase.

but when u vigor to barswap you get only 1 unbuffed tick

Vigor healing doesnt get increased by swapping/gaining higher damage in middle of its runtime.