Dragonknight Class Identity and Counter Proposal for U24

ArcVelarian · September 2019

Stamina Dragonknights should be focused on physical and bleeding damage as opposed to poison damage. We’re Dragonknights not Frogknights. So here's a counter proposal to the Update 24 changes for stamina DKs from someone who actually plays a Stam DK:

Overall: DK dot damage is only reduced by 26% (back to pre-Elsweyr numbers) as opposed to ~60%.

(Flame Lash) is now Furious Whip. Furious Whip deals X physical damage. In addition, Furious Whip applies Whiplash to your target, decreasing their damage dealt by 3%, lasting 12 seconds and stacking up to 3 times. (This effect stacks with similar effects)

Note: This should be the type of spammable ability stamina dks are given, not that brain dead change to Stone Giant. Furious Whip should probably cost ~1700 stamina.

Further Notes: To compensate Magicka builds for the loss of Lava Whip, Molten Whip has been buffed. Seething Fury now increases the damage of your next Molten Whip by 50% (up from 33%) and your weapon damage and spell damage by 100 for 6 seconds (up from 5 seconds). The effect can still only stack up to 3 times.
Noxious Breath is now Draconic Roar. Draconic Roar deals X initial damage, and Y damage over 10 seconds. In addition, this ability applies Minor Vulnerability to effected targets (Increasing damage taken by 8%) for 12 seconds.

Note: The cost of this ability remains the same as Noxious Breath. End of story.
Venomous Claws is now Dragon Strike. Dragon Strike deals an initial X physical damage and then Y bleed damage over 12 seconds. Decreases target’s resistances by 1320 and deals increased damage the longer it lasts, dealing 12% more damage every 1 second (down from 2 seconds).

Note: The cost of this ability remains the same. Hands off.
Passive Abilities: Tooltips and Effects changed to reflect switch from poison damage to physical and bleeding damage. Duh.

Kronuxx · September 2019

That boat has sailed my man. It's way too late to change the theme for Stamina Dragonknight. Here's a thought though: Hey ZOS, for the "attrition class" as you guys so aptly named it, perhaps you should nerf the DOTs for generic abilities, but class ability DOT's should maintain their damage potential. Oh I don't know...maybe because the Stamina DK is a DOT class first and foremost. You know, just a thought, not sure if you guys entertained that notion before. You know, the notion where nerfing of DOTs doesn't have to widespread, black or white. Buff all dots, nerf all dots. Why can't you guys understand the concept of middle ground. Some abilities need to be toned down, others do not. God Damn.

ArcVelarian · September 2019

Well, if we pound the idea into their heads enough, then maybe they'll be subconsciously influenced and actually do something good for Stam DK.

Banana · September 2019

Make engulfing flames and searing strike great again. Because dropping one sounds crazy

ArcVelarian · September 2019

Banana wrote: »

Make engulfing flames and searing strike great again. Because dropping one sounds crazy

that's Magicka dragonknights though, this is regarding stamina dks and ZOS veritable hatred/disregard for them.

Cously · September 2019

Poison knight was the dumbest idea ever to hit DKs. I like your changes. Back when I was conned to play the way I want I choose the DK to be my fire dragon brawler.

Beffagorn · September 2019

I'm fairly certain that's what every new player that comes in expect Stamina Dragonknight to be, what everyone has been asking since forever and what the class SHOULD be as per their damn official class description.

Sadly, ZoS never cared about Stamdks neither understand the concept or identity of the class THEY have created. What is even more sad is that this Stonefist is coming and oh, trust me, they WILL to force you to play with that abomination. They've already started by nerfing Dizzy Swing and our dots.

Don't worry tho, in future updates, we'll get more abominations that neither fit the Dragonknight theme, nor the game as they're all going to be absolute trash and they're going to call it a day. Actually, nevermind. Stamdks won't get anything again for the next 3+ years.

Goren · September 2019

I fully agree with you op! This poison theme makes no sense, just like disease damage for stam blades. But at this point I guess it's more likely that zos will introduce a "One Hand one magic" weapon skill line. That way we can play magicka dk with a sword and kinda feel like a true Dragonknight.

Ragnarock41 · September 2019

I feel like stonefist would have been just fine if they made it not another generic ranged spammable that nobody will use.

The stagger mechanic is also very underpowered and not at all cost effective.

Warden and necro also have ranged stam spammables.

Problem is Dk is strictly a melee class thus having a ranged spammable is really against the class nature and the animation looks too ugly(referred to as poop fist) which is the biggest reason people hate it, compared to whip which has the "looks cool" factor going for it and its a melee spammable with two unique morphs that are each very powerful.

So If zenimax gave this skill a unique animation, preferably one that is melee, I'm sure a lot of people would change their opinion about it.

Edit: for this whole physical>poison thing, I agree but sadly that ship has sailed long ago.

Ragnarock41 · September 2019

Also another ability that lost its niche for Dk is corrosive armor, completely outperformed by onslaught unfortunately.

All in all stamDk lost fossilize, wings and now corrosive's penetration is no longer unique to us.

Add the heavy dot nerfs and It will take a lot more than a ranged spammable to replace what was lost.

I won't even talk about nerfs to SnB and 2h abilities as those are not class exclusive, even though those weapons are a part of stamDk identity at this point.

Red_Feather · September 2019

I like stamina dragonknight getting a roar. That is pretty fun to think about!

Ragnarock41 · September 2019

Red_Feather wrote: »

I like stamina dragonknight getting a roar. That is pretty fun to think about!

I like the OPs suggestions aswell but the debuff numbers need tuning.

The idea should be making sDk unique and powerful again, not overpowered. %16 damage taken on an AoE ability is a little ridicilous.

I dont even think major fracture is bad.

ArcVelarian · September 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

I like stamina dragonknight getting a roar. That is pretty fun to think about!

I like the OPs suggestions aswell but the debuff numbers need tuning.

The idea should be making sDk unique and powerful again, not overpowered. %16 damage taken on an AoE ability is a little ridicilous.

I dont even think major fracture is bad.

The thing is that they're merging major fracture and major breach, so I had/have no idea what those numbers will/would look like by the time they're done fu-... Changing things. I imagine any new iteration of Noxious breath will tickle damage wise, so I was also trying to think of something everyone will want brought to the group. in both PvP and PvE.

Canned_Apples · September 2019

People are defending the changes because a heavy hitting spammable should not have a hard cc, and also let you very easily combo into the best ultimates in game- dB/2h. They removed the stun from several heavy hitters but none were as game breaking as dswing.

Only change I do not agree with is the heavy nerf to class dots- they should be toned down but not by 50-60%

Urzigurumash · September 2019

It seems both the poison theme and the nerf to our DOTs are logical in Earthly terms:

"Recent research has shown that Komodo dragons are like other monitor lizards in that they secrete venomous proteins in their mouths. Therefore, their saliva is venomous to some degree. However, Komodo dragon venom is unlike cobra venom, which can kill prey in just a few hours."

ArcVelarian · September 2019

Urzigurumash wrote: »

It seems both the poison theme and the nerf to our DOTs are logical in Earthly terms:

"Recent research has shown that Komodo dragons are like other monitor lizards in that they secrete venomous proteins in their mouths. Therefore, their saliva is venomous to some degree. However, Komodo dragon venom is unlike cobra venom, which can kill prey in just a few hours."

They don't make sense in terms of gameplay at all. sorry.

SenpaiNFT · September 2019

16% damage taken? Are you insane?

Asking for buffs is one thing, but asking for blatantly OP skills to be implemented is not going to buy you support nor is it going to turn heads form Devs.

If you want changes you have to propose actual logical and feasible changes, as soon as I read 16% damage taken I immediately chalked the entire post up as meme-worthy.

Olupajmibanan · September 2019

You know that Flame Lash is being used and is the go to PvP morph? It's unique funcionality consisting of big hit and a big heal was the reason to pick it and just numerical buff to Molten Whip simply doesn't cut it.

Jabbs_Giggity · September 2019

To what some had mentioned, NB's should have the "Poison" theme and Necromancers should inherit the "Disease" theme.

Stamina DragonKnights should be fast and powerful like a dragon. (I am not a DK Main - mine was retired over a year ago as sub-main)

Nightblades should be quick and deadly, in and out "Death by a thousand cuts" type of Rogue play. Should have more traps too.

Templars should be Tanky knights that have the burst power to "slay the dragon", but enough defensive power to keep yourself and allies alive or empower them to kill faster.

Sorcerers should be just that...Sorcerers with lots of magic and slight of hand mirrages. Stamina Sorcerers should be battle mages that benefit as hybrids. This class should have an earth skills tree, lightning and frost. Daedric Magic and Dark summoning should really be their own skill lines...

Wardens should be beast masters. Ability to empower with the strength of the bear, speed of a growing vine, agility of a falcon. Etc on the nerd stuff.

Necros are identified.

Additional skill lines some may like:
Piromancy dedicated to fire magic
Daedric Magic (As stated above with Sorcerers)
Melee weapon magic-based skill line. Some have noted: 1H and Orb, Wand, Essences held in hand, etc.

Ragnarock41 · September 2019

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

I like stamina dragonknight getting a roar. That is pretty fun to think about!

I like the OPs suggestions aswell but the debuff numbers need tuning.

The idea should be making sDk unique and powerful again, not overpowered. %16 damage taken on an AoE ability is a little ridicilous.

I dont even think major fracture is bad.

The thing is that they're merging major fracture and major breach, so I had/have no idea what those numbers will/would look like by the time they're done fu-... Changing things. I imagine any new iteration of Noxious breath will tickle damage wise, so I was also trying to think of something everyone will want brought to the group. in both PvP and PvE.

I see your point and agree that stamDK , even at its prime was a weak class for large scale combat, now even more so. However such a debuff on an ability that is spammable would simply not be balanced.

However a similar but weaker debuff would be welcome on venomous claws to set it apart from ranged dots.

ArcVelarian · September 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Red_Feather wrote: »

I like stamina dragonknight getting a roar. That is pretty fun to think about!

I like the OPs suggestions aswell but the debuff numbers need tuning.

The idea should be making sDk unique and powerful again, not overpowered. %16 damage taken on an AoE ability is a little ridicilous.

I dont even think major fracture is bad.

The thing is that they're merging major fracture and major breach, so I had/have no idea what those numbers will/would look like by the time they're done fu-... Changing things. I imagine any new iteration of Noxious breath will tickle damage wise, so I was also trying to think of something everyone will want brought to the group. in both PvP and PvE.

I see your point and agree that stamDK , even at its prime was a weak class for large scale combat, now even more so. However such a debuff on an ability that is spammable would simply not be balanced.

However a similar but weaker debuff would be welcome on venomous claws to set it apart from ranged dots.

And then people would just wail about Draconic Strike/Venomous Claws instead. I changed the idea to Minor Vulnerability (8% as opposed to 16%). Numerically this should be about the same as Major Fracture, and probably better in some regards. The overall idea is for Noxious Breath/Draconic Roar to be set apart from any abilities that are remotely similar.

Cortimi · September 2019

I like the ideas! The one easy idea I had, was to just simply increase the initial hit on Venomous Claw to spammable range, and have not the dot portion NOT reapply until it has run through its timer, like WW Claws. Simply, easy.

Davadin · September 2019

I like this. Even if they kept all the nerfed changes, if they just change the theme from poison to (physical) dragon, i will absolutely play the game.

Ragnarock41 · September 2019

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

16% damage taken? Are you insane?

Asking for buffs is one thing, but asking for blatantly OP skills to be implemented is not going to buy you support nor is it going to turn heads form Devs.

If you want changes you have to propose actual logical and feasible changes, as soon as I read 16% damage taken I immediately chalked the entire post up as meme-worthy.

Meanwhile Its fine to nerf Dk dots by %60, triple the cost, give what they have (%100 pen from ultimate) to everyone else, and thats no problems though. No compensation needed whatsoever, because Dk is ''tanky'', right?

Xarc · September 2019

What are doing DK class rep, exactly ?
Just to know.

Darsaga · September 2019

I stopped reading after your 9% damage mitigation idea. You have no idea what PvP needs.

Jabbs_Giggity · September 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

16% damage taken? Are you insane?

Asking for buffs is one thing, but asking for blatantly OP skills to be implemented is not going to buy you support nor is it going to turn heads form Devs.

If you want changes you have to propose actual logical and feasible changes, as soon as I read 16% damage taken I immediately chalked the entire post up as meme-worthy.

Meanwhile Its fine to nerf Dk dots by %60, triple the cost, give what they have (%100 pen from ultimate) to everyone else, and thats no problems though. No compensation needed whatsoever, because Dk is ''tanky'', right?

I hate to discourage you (because I do agree), but DK isn't the only class that got massive nerf hammer to their class dots and increased costs to unsustainable amounts. Templars Core Dots have been made into a joke. Shards at nearly 5K cost!!!!!!!!!
Also, as a Templar main....we gave you Major Mending....by the way.

Davadin · September 2019

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

16% damage taken? Are you insane?

Asking for buffs is one thing, but asking for blatantly OP skills to be implemented is not going to buy you support nor is it going to turn heads form Devs.

If you want changes you have to propose actual logical and feasible changes, as soon as I read 16% damage taken I immediately chalked the entire post up as meme-worthy.

Meanwhile Its fine to nerf Dk dots by %60, triple the cost, give what they have (%100 pen from ultimate) to everyone else, and thats no problems though. No compensation needed whatsoever, because Dk is ''tanky'', right?

I hate to discourage you (because I do agree), but DK isn't the only class that got massive nerf hammer to their class dots and increased costs to unsustainable amounts. Templars Core Dots have been made into a joke. Shards at nearly 5K cost!!!!!!!!!
Also, as a Templar main....we gave you Major Mending....by the way.

i'm willing to give away major mending if they can fix all of our other skills and passive.

Xvorg · September 2019

Davadin wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

16% damage taken? Are you insane?

Asking for buffs is one thing, but asking for blatantly OP skills to be implemented is not going to buy you support nor is it going to turn heads form Devs.

If you want changes you have to propose actual logical and feasible changes, as soon as I read 16% damage taken I immediately chalked the entire post up as meme-worthy.

Meanwhile Its fine to nerf Dk dots by %60, triple the cost, give what they have (%100 pen from ultimate) to everyone else, and thats no problems though. No compensation needed whatsoever, because Dk is ''tanky'', right?

I hate to discourage you (because I do agree), but DK isn't the only class that got massive nerf hammer to their class dots and increased costs to unsustainable amounts. Templars Core Dots have been made into a joke. Shards at nearly 5K cost!!!!!!!!!
Also, as a Templar main....we gave you Major Mending....by the way.

i'm willing to give away major mending if they can fix all of our other skills and passive.

Me too

Major mending on a DK makes little sense.

Jabbs_Giggity · September 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

16% damage taken? Are you insane?

Asking for buffs is one thing, but asking for blatantly OP skills to be implemented is not going to buy you support nor is it going to turn heads form Devs.

If you want changes you have to propose actual logical and feasible changes, as soon as I read 16% damage taken I immediately chalked the entire post up as meme-worthy.

Meanwhile Its fine to nerf Dk dots by %60, triple the cost, give what they have (%100 pen from ultimate) to everyone else, and thats no problems though. No compensation needed whatsoever, because Dk is ''tanky'', right?

I hate to discourage you (because I do agree), but DK isn't the only class that got massive nerf hammer to their class dots and increased costs to unsustainable amounts. Templars Core Dots have been made into a joke. Shards at nearly 5K cost!!!!!!!!!
Also, as a Templar main....we gave you Major Mending....by the way.

i'm willing to give away major mending if they can fix all of our other skills and passive.

Me too

Major mending on a DK makes little sense.

Was only referencing to make a point. However, IMO DoT's in general should not be nerfed. Period. They are fine as is. The only issue with DoT's currently is the ability to stack the same DoT from multiple players onto one player.
If two people stack the same DoT (I'll use Entropy in this example) on one player then both Entropies should deal 50% less damage to that player. This way, both players will deal approximately 100% of the original tooltip damage to said enemy player. Diminishing returns is what would fix the use of DoT's.

In specific to DK's, Venomous Claw should become a spammable for Stam, removing the DoT effect and instead increase in damage under 25% Health as a class execute. Noxious should lose it's DoT component and become an AOE DD attack with Major Fracture. Whip should remain as Magicka spammable ST and Burning Embers and Engulfing Flames should remain as DoT's with no upfront Damage with Heal on Damage and Major Breach respectively.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO · September 2019

Cously wrote: »

Poison knight was the dumbest idea ever to hit DKs. I like your changes. Back when I was conned to play the way I want I choose the DK to be my fire dragon brawler.

I hated poison DKs being the way to do damage as well. When I first started the game, I chose DK because I wanted to be a badass dragon dude burning stuff to the ground as a damage dealer. Then they started introducing all this poison crap. Like wut?