I have used dswing since I started and I honestly don't mind losing the stun but losing that with the damage is too much imo.

Dizzy has always been a skill with high risk, high reward playstyle yet currently on live it has some issues. The range sometimes is far higher than it should be but the main issue is counterplay. Dizzy now hit's so fast and if you cc them then there is nothing they can do to stop you from following up with ult, and same as executioner.

Many of my duels feel unfair because my opponent can't do much to stop me.

On pts I think with the change of needing to land a medium attack to cc them that it adds counterplay and skill back to dizzy swing. But I think it deals too low damage to make up for this. Most other spammables are hitting just as hard or harder than dizzy swing when dizzy needs more to get the full value out of it.

I just really think it needs it's damage to be buffed back, dizzy should hit hard, especially with them making it much easier to avoid.

Edit: I think just going back to 1 second cast time and increasing damage would also solve the issue. Dizzy was fine then imo. But just restoring stun won't fix the issue because I still think dizzy needs some damage back.

Honestly I just wish they had put the 1s cast time back and left it alone besides that....the skill was considered weak until this patch, and if a 9% damage buff and a 0.2 second reduction in its cast time truly broke it (I doubt it, I’m in the camp that Onslaught is the problem, I don’t think it was a good idea to give every class a Corrosive like skill), than undo the buffs Scalebreaker brought to Dizzying Swing.....Just don’t ruin an entire playstyle ZoS, please.

restore stun to all types of destro clench and buff the base damage in line with the dswing (without you being required to wear a master weapon for a decent number) ..just saying

Ashanne wrote: »

restore stun to all types of destro clench and buff the base damage in line with the dswing (without you being required to wear a master weapon for a decent number) ..just saying

I really don’t think a ranged instant cast stun should do the damage as a melee skill with a cast time.

That being said clench is rubbish now and should be relooked at. And Dizzy will be with it if it loses its stun.

mursie wrote: »

on 6 stamina toons, all but the stamplar and stamdk used dizzy during scalebreaker. it was that strong.

and of the 2 not using it, it was a choice preference (jabs/javelin and dots/petrify) where other players definitely utilized dizzy even on plar and dk.

onslaught is over the top. even magicka users are slotting it. i find it outrageous that this change was initially slotted at 16 secs...scaled back to 12 secs...and is still ingame and live with no discussion or adjustment. Onslaught needs a super tone down. if the defensive ult of beserker is 8 seconds...then the offensive needs to be that time or less (likely 6 seconds).

the buff to dswing dmg in scalebreaker and the increased speed to spam it made it better than any other spammable (aside from jabs) to all toons. this is a problem. a high burst, high speed spammable that also stuns is nuts. and the stun is one of the best as it completely allowed you to land cast time ults that other stuns simply would not window with the same level of guarantee.

if you're not going to change onslaught - then the proposed change to dswing is necesary, even though it loses a ton of identity and is unfortunate. the reality is that a better solution likely exists, but will the devs recognize that before these changes go live - i have little hope.

Why is it that you think defensive ults should have a longer duration than offensive ones?

No thanks Dottz. Part of your argument in your video rests on Dizzy Swing not being easy to land or being easily dodgable. However, this is not really the case. If you know what you’re doing you can easily land almost all your dizzying swings and requiring people to know to kite or walk through the enemy the right way is just a ludicrous argument. To me, 2h should always be “slower” but more powerful than dual wielding. The current dizzy swing into partial heavy would give this a better sense of “weapon identity” rather than everyone running around with 2h as main melee DD cause they can spawn dizzy.

If the stun were put back in place, dizzy swing’s damage will have to be GREATLY nerfed, making dizzy swing only useful for setups and not as a spammable (destructive clench and draining shot got similar treatments. I realize dizzy swing still has the cast time but I’m not saying he skill should have that low a damage. However the damage would be much lower than it currently is. Atm, I think part of the reason why dueling with 2h on PTS feels so rewarding right now is because you can catchy your enemy off guard with partial charge heavy stuns that actually require quite some higher skill cap. Being able to off-balance he enemy allows dizzy swing to be a great set up to some heavy damage attacks after your partial charged heavy. Personally, I think this gives the game more flavor overall because let us be honest, no one was using the other morph and carve is pretty nonexistent in pvp for the most part.

Yes, like you I play both mag and stam chars and personally I think this will make actually good plays as a stam char feel much more rewarding that the current meta (especially in BG) where I can enter with my stamDK and go 20+ kills without a death while spamming dizzy swing for nearly half my rotations and execute after they’re under 50%. I don’t even slot onslaught.

Edit: oh yeah as for server side input you just need to get good enough to do spot on medium weaves because this argument can go the other way too. Due to server input and lag issues I sometimes don’t spot dizzy swing coming, so it doesn’t have an actual counter play. It only depends on perspective, Let’s be honest, humans often attribute their own mistakes to server issues on online games. This can work for ANY other skill called into question. Sometimes when I use execute and the player has more than 50% *** even if I’m seeing 40%. Are we supposed to raise execute cap just because server issues, or maybe you didn’t read the bar carefully because 51% looks like 50% but is actually not? What we can hope for is better servers, not skills tuned to suit bad servers just because they sometimes fail to register.

No dottz. It's a crutch skill for most players that just spam it hoping to land a ton of burst on top of a CC and was dumb before onslaught. I know, I know. Lots of players love it of course, who doesn't love over performing skills when they are making use of them (which is was even before onslaught changes), but it didn't fit with the no high damage, no CC on same skill concept zos did with several other skills. Not sure who needs onslaught to kill someone after you do half their health and knock them down unless maybe you are talking about a tank, which shouldn't be a faceroll to kill.

I might agree with you partially on the concessions though. Personally, I would have left the stun on one morph and had it do hardly any damage. Not same damage as another skill that didn't knock down. But much less, you would essentially be casting it for the CC. And then the other morph would be the damage morph. But I have a feeling my idea of the damage the knock down version would do is much lower than yours. In my version, you only would be using this as mainly a CC and not trying to spam it for damage while waiting for a CC to work. But if it does enough damage to chunk off a good piece of health while knocking them on their butt while you can just swap to execute as they spend stam to get up, that's a broken skill. Especially if it already is doing enough damage as a spammable without the CC, so you are not losing anything when someone doesn't get CC'd and are just waiting for the knockdown for the easy win. And this is before or without onslaught. Onslaught is a whole different can of worms.

They also kept making it faster and faster in cast time to make it more useful as a PvE spammable, which it never truly achieved, but it did succeed in making worse and worse (or better if you like to use it) in PvP. So I would revert the cast time on the knockdown as well, at .8 seconds, desyncs and png play a bigger role than skill in landing vs dodging it. This is on top of other server issues like having to double stun break it sometimes. If one morph will have a CC, then that morph should be bumped back up to over a 1 sec cast time.

As it stands with the skill on PTS right now, it's just going to make Truth the go-to set for all stam to run and there will be a new heavy armor set stam users are wearing that everyone is upset about. Because it doesn't balance with all the other HA damage sets they nerfed (Fury, 7th, etc) when you can just land one skill and keep Truth up 90%+ for a fight and get 450 weapon damage on top of the off balance bonuses. So leaving one version with a stun and low damage would be better than just slapping off-balance on it like they did.

Casterial wrote: »

I'd say keep it as is, why? Dizzy swing stun and most knock back stuns act like 2 CC's, knocked in air, then stunned on ground. You officially don't have the stun until you're on the ground.

I think for stamden this is a good change, why? They can heavy to stun but also land shulks better because it's not obvious you're rooted when hit

They made changes to knockback this patch. They speeded it up and yet they still took it off dizzy before we could even test how it handles now. + the heavy handed damage nerf to fit some dot standards. My guess is they raise the dot dmg back up a bit next cycle and still leave dizzy in shambles.

But whatever, if they decide to keep the stun off of dizzy I could simply use Turn Evil before I unavoidably hit you with Onslaught, including that sweet +10% dmg from off balance from new DS. Then they'll ask for the next nerf, which will hit turn evil instead of the root of the issue: onslaught.

No way, it is high time this cheese was removed and people actually learned to play. Literally every single Stam build out there was centered around.

I will tell all you cheesers that crutch it what was told to me when Wings got gutted: git gud.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@Dottzgaming

"Dizzying Swing sets up onslaught very easily, and afterwards, consecutive Dswings hit REALLY hard because of all the pen gained from onslaught."

Why on earth would anyone, especially you of all people, think that an ability that "very easily" combos into a low cost and hardest hitting ultimate should remain in game?
It literally offers no counter play- something you've been complaining about with regards to the DoT meta.

If they were to reintroduce the stun, then D-Swing should only stun on the second hit against the target and not the first. At least then there would be some counter play.

You just made my arguement for me. "why should d-swing be able to set up the strongest ult in the game" - the problem rests with onslaught, NOT dswing. Does dswing need to be toned back? absolutely. Im not against raising the cast time back to 1s, which for awhile made people think the skill was "bad". it wasnt until they lowered the cast time to .8 and added onslaught that the skill suddenly became a problem.

jlboozer wrote: »

Agreed, and I really hope they listen. I love your vids too btw, keep up the good work bud!

Thank you!

mursie wrote: »

on 6 stamina toons, all but the stamplar and stamdk used dizzy during scalebreaker. it was that strong.

and of the 2 not using it, it was a choice preference (jabs/javelin and dots/petrify) where other players definitely utilized dizzy even on plar and dk.

onslaught is over the top. even magicka users are slotting it. i find it outrageous that this change was initially slotted at 16 secs...scaled back to 12 secs...and is still ingame and live with no discussion or adjustment. Onslaught needs a super tone down. if the defensive ult of beserker is 8 seconds...then the offensive needs to be that time or less (likely 6 seconds).

the buff to dswing dmg in scalebreaker and the increased speed to spam it made it better than any other spammable (aside from jabs) to all toons. this is a problem. a high burst, high speed spammable that also stuns is nuts. and the stun is one of the best as it completely allowed you to land cast time ults that other stuns simply would not window with the same level of guarantee.

if you're not going to change onslaught - then the proposed change to dswing is necesary, even though it loses a ton of identity and is unfortunate. the reality is that a better solution likely exists, but will the devs recognize that before these changes go live - i have little hope.

I totally agree with you, Mursie. I think the dmg reduction on it is warranted, for sure. I also wouldnt be opposed to the cast time going back up to 1s either.

And i totally agree with you on onslaught - it's so incredibly strong and im surprised no adjustments were made to it.

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Honestly, the stun on Dizzying Swing (and previously Wrecking Blow) is just super iconic. Can't believe they're doing away with it.

I don't even run any DSwing builds anymore, but I think they're fun fights (on either side) because the skill is simultaneously so impactful when it lands, but so telegraphed. Was a fun dynamic.

Absolutely, I am going to miss it alot.

Cortimi wrote: »

No way, it is high time this cheese was removed and people actually learned to play. Literally every single Stam build out there was centered around.

I will tell all you cheesers that crutch it what was told to me when Wings got gutted: git gud.

What a well thought out arguement that is constructive and open to discussion, thank you for your input.


@ everyone else who responded but disagreed, I appreciate the feedback and can definitely see your perspectives! How would you guys feel though if the nerf went through on the damage as is (i believe 16%), and the cast time went back up to 1s, and in addition we saw a nerf to onslaught which imo is the primary offender here? The skill would now be worse prior to its buffing in Scalebreaker (like most things in the game lol) and wouldnt be setting up the strongest ult in the game (which completely needs to be toned back). Wonder what you guys think!

I can understand the decrease in damage, but the stun should stay with Dizzy. An iconic skill that required high skill and high reward to land consistently. I'm sorry, but dizzy even with the 0.8 sec cast is still difficult to land at times. Particularly if the opposing player knows what they are doing. Being snared, stunned, or walked through while trying to land a dizzy are all ways to counter it (and that's obviously not all the methods to counter dizzy). As usual, ZOS like to remove the fun out of their gameplay, and make their gameplay boring, repetitive and bland.

Where were all the concerned stam streamers when Destructive Reach was gutted?

Nah...

REVERSION DENIED.

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@Emma_Overload
True that.

Hope @ZOS_BrianWheeler doesn't actually listen to this because the op is a tuber.

I'm convinced that the reason single target DOTs got nerfed into the ground was because of these guys grumbling all over Youtube. For once we were starting to approach balance between Magicka and Stamina, but these guys were like "nope, we gotta be able to 1vX mag chumps for views".