Restore Stun on Dizzying Swing

Epicasballs

Pelican wrote: »

I'm honestly not sure what's worse, ZOS implementing these stupid changes or the fact that people are defending them.

The skill was fine for 5 years. Then one nerf led to another. Everyone has lost something over the years. People are hurt about it so they're out for vengeance. "I lost X so you must lose Y.' I say bring Frag stun back. Bring Shalk stun back. Leave Dizzy alone. TTK is about to get ridiculous. Bring back more busted stuff. Buffs not nerfs. We need buffs.

Urzigurumash

Epicasballs wrote: »

TTK is about to get ridiculous.

We're being disingenuous if we say TTK isn't at an all-time low. At least in Battlegrounds. People were clamoring for a diminution to TTK. However you are correct, and I agree with the OP.

MentalxHammer

While I do agree that d swing was very fun and rewarding to use I think that the removal of the stun was a necessary change.

My reasoning is that there is nothing in the game like d swing, and it is obviously the strongest offensive playstyle in the game in it's current state on live. There is nothing in the game that gives you an advantage like slotting d swing.

You combine the strongest burst spammable in the game with a CC and even low skill players can land "lucky shots" on highly skilled players and burst them down leaving < 1 second to react i.e. no counterplay if its landed from behind.

If there were other similarly effective offensive skills for both mag and stam I think the stun could be warranted. Currently the skill is over performing too much, to the point where IMO there is no reason to play anything in PvP other than a 2h main bar build, that is the issue.

Barbaran

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Barbaran wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Where were all the concerned stam streamers when Destructive Reach was gutted?

Nah...

REVERSION DENIED.

Are we talking about shock clench ( I assume you were using this meta).

Shock clench: Ranged, instant cast, stun, caused minor vulnerability, master staff made it hit like a truck.

Dizzy: close range, cast time, easily counterable, stun/knockback.

Give dizzy a 28m range, minor vulnerability, stun, and an instant cast, then we can talk about how it's the same thing

Shock Clench never, ever "hit like a truck". Not with the Master Destro... not EVER. The combined tooltip would have been something like 8K on a normal mag build, including the Master buff. Dizzying Swing did and still does WAY more damage than that on a typical stam build. Did you ever even compare the tooltips of Dizzy and Clench? LOL, I'm pretty sure that's a big fat "No."

Paired with minor vulnerability, instant cast ( cast 2 with 2 la weaves) from range in the time it takes to MAYBE get one dizzy. Dizzy can be out manouvered easily.
With all the light armour penetration bonus'.

Clearly you have no clue

Skoomah

I don’t remember the last time I died to any dizzy swing or related combo. Maybe 2-3 years ago?

There is so much counterplay. Good movement, block, dodge roll, cloak, speed, walk around it, walk through it, streak, CC immunity, jumping, etc.

The only type of player spamming the skill is a noob player.

An experienced PvP knows the difference between victory and failure is the depth and complexity of the combo.

For example...

Self Buff + Self Buff + Debuff Opponent + Debuff Opponent + Apply Dot + Apply Dot + Direct Damage + STUN + Ultimate + Execute + Execute...

Go into Defensive Rotation...

Rinse and repeat the offensive rotation until opponent is overwhelmed and dead.

So look at the combo above... the STUN is one piece out of a 11 skill offensive combo. Every piece is key. But the STUN is crucial to finish off the combo.

Because in this game, if you don’t stun and execute within a 1-2.5 second window... the opponent will heal to full health again in mere seconds.

I get people don’t like to get stunned, immobilized, or snared, but I’m not a fan of limiting the sources of it from the game. More choice is better than fewer choices. More choice grants more build variety and interesting fights which to me is MORE FUN.

usmguy1234

Pelican wrote: »

I'm honestly not sure what's worse, ZOS implementing these stupid changes or the fact that people are defending them.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

josh.lackey_ESO

Just get rid of the cast time and balance it a normal spammable.

Canned_Apples

Still no.

ZarkingFrued

Dottzgaming wrote: »

If there's one thing in these notes I want to see reverted, it is the removal of the stun on Dizzying Swing.

While Dizzying Swing is a good skill, i think the main offender to why it feels as powerful as it does in Scalebreaker is because of onslaught. Dizzying Swing sets up onslaught very easily, and afterwards, consecutive Dswings hit REALLY hard because of all the pen gained from onslaught. Losing Dswing as a combo starter is going to hurt many builds and effectively kill an entire playstyle that has been in the game for a very long time.

I'd personally prefer to see the stun restored to Dizzying Swing, the projected damage nerf be kept in to meet the new "standards", and see Onslaught adjusted appropriately. This will keep the playstyle myself and many others love in the game, while lowering it's power due to proper adjustments on Onslaught (which dswings primary use is to set up).

While i do understand you can medium weave inside the dswing to land the stun afterwards, not only does it feel a bit clunkier to use, but you are at the mercy of server/input lag due to needing to add an extra action into the equation. I did a lot of testing on the pts with dswing, and the landing of the stun felt really conditional on whether or not the server saw my medium weave input.

Power definitely needs to be adjusted in this potent combo, but you're nerfing the combo starter, not the primary damage people are trying to setup.

Anyway, this is just my opinion on the subject. Interested to hear what others think.

Losing Dizzy stun kind of ruins the game for any 2h pvp character period

ZarkingFrued

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Where were all the concerned stam streamers when Destructive Reach was gutted?

Nah...

REVERSION DENIED.

Very cringe

Vapirko

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Where were all the concerned stam streamers when Destructive Reach was gutted?

Nah...

REVERSION DENIED.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Dottzgaming wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Where were all the concerned stam streamers when Destructive Reach was gutted?

Nah...

REVERSION DENIED.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@Emma_Overload
True that.

Hope @ZOS_BrianWheeler doesn't actually listen to this because the op is a tuber.

I'm convinced that the reason single target DOTs got nerfed into the ground was because of these guys grumbling all over Youtube. For once we were starting to approach balance between Magicka and Stamina, but these guys were like "nope, we gotta be able to 1vX mag chumps for views".

Really don't appreciate these insinuations.

I don't like the current state of destructive clench, I think it's weak. But my feelings on destructive clench have nothing to do with dizzying swing.

Also, I play magDK, alot, and am not happy with the DoT nerfs; they went crazy with 60% nerfs. The game finally got rid of the tank meta because of the DoT changes. 20% nerfs would have been a good place to start but instead they went crazy and now dots are pathetically weak.

If you've watched any amount of my content, you'd know I hate the gutting of dots and I hate the new standards on DoTs that are coming. I'm not "just some Stam streamer". I play a variety of specs

I am just trying to facilitate discussion about a specific balance change I have concern with, as is the point of these pts forums - to give feedback and concern on changes coming in a future patch.

Maybe next time instead of just jumping to conclusions about me and my thought process - which were wrong - and making insults and taking jabs, you can try and have a conversation.

OK, you want a discussion without "insinuations" or whatever? I'll make it short and sweet:

Dizzying Swing deserves be nerfed because it combines high damage and a hard cc into a cheap, spammable abiliity. The fact that stam builds are allowed to have abilities like this, while magicka is not, seems very imbalanced and unfair to me. Nothing you said in your original post convinces me otherwise.

If my tone sounded scornful, it's not anything personal, it's just that I have read many, many comments both here and on YouTube from stamina mains complaining about the Dizzying Swing nerf, and it has been perfectly obvious that most of these people just want to protect an easy (but effective) play style at the expense of game balance.

As I always say Emma, you are welcome to try all these OP Stam play styles for yourself. But you never do. You just play one class and are more biased than any of the people you call out for being biased. As Dottz says it was more to do with Onslaught than dizzy swing. And again this skill is only OP against people who are inexperienced. It’s very hard to lock someone down if they’re decent. A mag sorc should be out of range of this ability always. Maybe it’s a L2P issue on your part? And there’s two huge differences between clench and d swing that you just want to ignore. Clench was ranged and instant cast. They’re very different skills.

Epicasballs

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

TTK is about to get ridiculous.

We're being disingenuous if we say TTK isn't at an all-time low. At least in Battlegrounds. People were clamoring for a diminution to TTK. However you are correct, and I agree with the OP.

Yes... I actually liked U23 for this reason. U24 is going to set us back... Way back. DoTs aren't a huge deal in BGs currently. TTK is in a sweet spot. HP regen Trials Bosses are gone in BGs. No one is unkillable. I love U23. But all I do is BG nowadays and I realize there is more to this game than BGs.

With newly introduced cast times on ults I honestly believe bringing frag/shalk stun back would be ok.

usmguy1234

Vapirko wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Where were all the concerned stam streamers when Destructive Reach was gutted?

Nah...

REVERSION DENIED.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Dottzgaming wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Where were all the concerned stam streamers when Destructive Reach was gutted?

Nah...

REVERSION DENIED.

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Canned_Apples wrote: »

@Emma_Overload
True that.

Hope @ZOS_BrianWheeler doesn't actually listen to this because the op is a tuber.

I'm convinced that the reason single target DOTs got nerfed into the ground was because of these guys grumbling all over Youtube. For once we were starting to approach balance between Magicka and Stamina, but these guys were like "nope, we gotta be able to 1vX mag chumps for views".

Really don't appreciate these insinuations.

I don't like the current state of destructive clench, I think it's weak. But my feelings on destructive clench have nothing to do with dizzying swing.

Also, I play magDK, alot, and am not happy with the DoT nerfs; they went crazy with 60% nerfs. The game finally got rid of the tank meta because of the DoT changes. 20% nerfs would have been a good place to start but instead they went crazy and now dots are pathetically weak.

If you've watched any amount of my content, you'd know I hate the gutting of dots and I hate the new standards on DoTs that are coming. I'm not "just some Stam streamer". I play a variety of specs

I am just trying to facilitate discussion about a specific balance change I have concern with, as is the point of these pts forums - to give feedback and concern on changes coming in a future patch.

Maybe next time instead of just jumping to conclusions about me and my thought process - which were wrong - and making insults and taking jabs, you can try and have a conversation.

OK, you want a discussion without "insinuations" or whatever? I'll make it short and sweet:

Dizzying Swing deserves be nerfed because it combines high damage and a hard cc into a cheap, spammable abiliity. The fact that stam builds are allowed to have abilities like this, while magicka is not, seems very imbalanced and unfair to me. Nothing you said in your original post convinces me otherwise.

If my tone sounded scornful, it's not anything personal, it's just that I have read many, many comments both here and on YouTube from stamina mains complaining about the Dizzying Swing nerf, and it has been perfectly obvious that most of these people just want to protect an easy (but effective) play style at the expense of game balance.

As I always say Emma, you are welcome to try all these OP Stam play styles for yourself. But you never do. You just play one class and are more biased than any of the people you call out for being biased. As Dottz says it was more to do with Onslaught than dizzy swing. And again this skill is only OP against people who are inexperienced. It’s very hard to lock someone down if they’re decent. A mag sorc should be out of range of this ability always. Maybe it’s a L2P issue on your part? And there’s two huge differences between clench and d swing that you just want to ignore. Clench was ranged and instant cast. They’re very different skills.

There's not much to be said to people that los behind multiple pets and still die. Like you said, I'd welcome them to try to land a dizzy consistently on anything in pvp with los or decent mobility.

evoniee

git gud and use turn evil like real man.
2h if far greater than dw in many way.
rally/fm, executioner, onslaught, spamable with 4/5 damage of incap with stun.
0.8 sec, lower cost, higer damage in live patch turn this into a real spamable. we dont like spamable with stun like old reach / frag.

jadarock

Dizzy was fine it rewarded skillful use now its spammed on any stand your ground build.
It being used by everyone tells me something about it is op . Maybe the fact it hits for 5k on tanky opponents and has a ridiculous buggy stun attached is why its getting nerfed Idk
No way is this fun gameplay for the opponent by the way either...
Have you ever played a healer or support build with very limited offense and had someone follow you across the map spamming it on you? Its fn stupid bro come on

MCBIZZLE300

Dottzgaming wrote: »

If there's one thing in these notes I want to see reverted, it is the removal of the stun on Dizzying Swing.

While Dizzying Swing is a good skill, i think the main offender to why it feels as powerful as it does in Scalebreaker is because of onslaught. Dizzying Swing sets up onslaught very easily, and afterwards, consecutive Dswings hit REALLY hard because of all the pen gained from onslaught. Losing Dswing as a combo starter is going to hurt many builds and effectively kill an entire playstyle that has been in the game for a very long time.

I'd personally prefer to see the stun restored to Dizzying Swing, the projected damage nerf be kept in to meet the new "standards", and see Onslaught adjusted appropriately. This will keep the playstyle myself and many others love in the game, while lowering it's power due to proper adjustments on Onslaught (which dswings primary use is to set up).

While i do understand you can medium weave inside the dswing to land the stun afterwards, not only does it feel a bit clunkier to use, but you are at the mercy of server/input lag due to needing to add an extra action into the equation. I did a lot of testing on the pts with dswing, and the landing of the stun felt really conditional on whether or not the server saw my medium weave input.

Power definitely needs to be adjusted in this potent combo, but you're nerfing the combo starter, not the primary damage people are trying to setup.

Anyway, this is just my opinion on the subject. Interested to hear what others think.

I agree, out of all the nerfs this is the worst change. Zos is losing sight of the fact that FUN is important in the game. its fun swiping someone into the air.

Chilly-McFreeze

evoniee wrote: »

git gud and use turn evil like real man.
2h if far greater than dw in many way.
rally/fm, executioner, onslaught, spamable with 4/5 damage of incap with stun.
0.8 sec, lower cost, higer damage in live patch turn this into a real spamable. we dont like spamable with stun like old reach / frag.

LoL. Because Turn Evil needs such skill to use compared to dizzy, right?

Heimpai

Pelican wrote: »

I'm honestly not sure what's worse, ZOS implementing these stupid changes or the fact that people are defending them.

Well, look at who’s defending them..someone who cried about their zoo underperforming when they were OP/best in pvp and claiming magblades were far better despite the fact it was bottom tier at the time..Or how they were forced to use chudan as they didn’t want to give up a slot for major ward/resolve

ku5h

Kadoin wrote: »

I've said it before, but when one single skill or armor piece makes the entire difference between whether or not your build is successful, it might just be OP.

I don't see it that way at all. I play magSorc and there are atleast 3 skill without which my entire class would be shaken up, not only my builds. Those are ofc Streak, Ward and for me Curse. Loose one of those skill and my setup would be unrecognizable.

MCBIZZLE300

I cant belive they are going to go through with this.

LuxLunae

Why dizzying swing was changed... it became the no brainer choice... it was better than jabs...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/492936/for-all-crying-about-dizzying-swing/p1

In a sense it removed my stamplar class identity fully...as I used no offensive stamplar moves at all.

Once the same build was appied to my stamDK and StamNB it was like i got 10 times better at the game because people dropped like flies. (before the pts changes)

Jabs heals living dark 1.5k damage vs 2k+ heals from livin dark
Jabs gets reduced by 1h BRP/Major Protection
Jabs got nerfed by Major Evasion
Jabs takes 1 second to produce its damage
Jabs usually only gets half of its damage to land before the person is out of range

Dizzy swing only is reduced by 1h BRP/ Major Protection
Dizzy Swing comes all in one in 0.8 seconds.
Dizzy Swing stunned my enemies instead of just slowing them down a bit forcing them to use resources to break free
Dizzy Swing forced the knocked back animation to play making it hard for players to break free
Dizzy swing can be spammed after the fist hit.
Dizzy swing wont help heal living dark users 6k damage vs 2k+heals

I didn't use power of the light because my stam is to low for it to be significant.

Aixy

Nerf Onslaught and Dizzying Swing......

My gosh this game has alot of problems... is so sad