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A Comment on Damage and Content Difficulty

FakeFox
FakeFox
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I assume you all have seen the damage decrease in the PTS patch notes. However I want to address this more widely. We might end up with more damage then before when the DLC goes live, but that is besides the point.

A lot of PvE content in this game is designed around a certain amount of damage, otherwise it falls apart. We have been seeing this for a long time with some of the once hardest bosses being literally target dummies because with enough DPS you can skip close to all mechanics. Nothing new. I personally don’t like it, but that’s what you have to do to stay competitive. In terms of group compositions, this kind of encounter design leads to a very clear meta and especially class stacking. What is meta will eventually be nerfed and replaced by something new and the wheel continues. None of the countless reworks we have seen has changed the actual system, it only ever changed what is on top.
The real problem with all of this is that instead of changing this system, content was built around it. Content is so much balanced around a flawed system that numerical changes lead to huge problems. So far we only saw what power creep does, but with the planned changes we might for the first time see what a damage decrease does and that it is not going to fix problems that are simply not numerical.

Currently three groups (that I know of) have achieved “Godslayer” (veteran Sunspire hardmode, no death, speedrun). All three groups have finished in around 27 minutes, which is not a lot under the time limit of 30 minutes. Each of those three groups did run between 6-8 stamina Necromancers, with other classes being primarily in support roles. Elsweyr has introduced a meta that is dominated by a class that is not only strong on it’s own but directly benefits by being stacked. Stamina Necromancer not only does some of the highest damage but also increases the damage of everyone else, including other Necromancers, with major vulnerability. This composition builds up a massive lead towards other compositions, more so than any class stack meta before. But the real problem here is that, while this issue was already known on the Elsweyr PTS, it was not addressed and we got a trial that is basically balanced around this meta performance. As I said, the three groups mentioned above each had about three minutes left, but you would be mistaken to think that without stacking Necromancers you maybe take 29 minutes and still finish in time. I am currently leading a group working towards godslayer and so have dealt with the matter a lot. The time required does not behave linear as the content is literally designed in a way that a under 30 minute clear requires a group to not play mechanics regularly, because it would take too much time. Most of those tactics (not exploits) revolve around not focusing, not killing or not even spawning adds and have very high internal requirements to even pull off. So there currently is no smooth progression. Either you fully commit and pull it off or you are not even getting close.

Stamina Necromancer is clearly over performing and nerfs are in general absolutely justified. However current content is so much balanced around this broken meta that nerfs lead to massive problems, that go far beyond the often quoted “adjust and move on.” A damage nerf like currently planned, can make a hardmode speedrun in Sunspire literally impossible. With the constant massive balance changes we need to see content adjustments at some point and that does not mean tweaking a few numbers, but significant changes to PvE mechanics and mechanical relevance and difficulty.

I have read quite few posts stating that damage nerfs are good, because old content is to easy. And I think this holds some truth, but you can not balance damage around PvE content if said content does not have a consistent basis to begin with. Balancing damage for vMOL, that was introduced when damage was not even half the current norm is not going to work if we have content being balanced on the same scale that requires todays damage. PvE content itself needs to be adjusted to a level where all of it can function within the same spectrum of damage numbers.
EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)
  • TheNightflame
    TheNightflame
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    When Finn has been bandaiding the combat team's short comings and has to take the brunt of fixing things again :'(
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    They might need to tone down some of the newer trials/dungeons (although they said they completed them fine in internal testing, so we'll see), but I'm glad older content will be a bit more challenging now. The power creep was getting out of hand.
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on September 17, 2019 2:42AM
  • BahometZ
    BahometZ
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    *Weeps in progression group*
    Pact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)
  • FakeFox
    FakeFox
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    They might need to tone down some of the newer trials/dungeons (although they said they completed them fine in internal testing, so we'll see), but I'm glad older content will be a bit more challenging now. The power creep was getting out of hand.

    vSS Scorerun by ZOS Balanceteam

    17c.png
    EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)
  • yepleb
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    They might need to tone down some of the newer trials/dungeons (although they said they completed them fine in internal testing, so we'll see), but I'm glad older content will be a bit more challenging now. The power creep was getting out of hand.

    Didn't they say that their team completed dungeons? I never heard anything about trials. I very much doubt that any of the people at zos run hardmode trials let alone hardmode, speedrun, no-death runs.
  • Katahdin
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    Yes Necros need a nerf
    Instead of getting necros more in line, ZoS is nerfing pretty much everything so necros are still going to be meta

    People complained about OVERLAND content being to easy.
    Overland is still going to be and always will be super easy for a vetran player leveling their 10th character.

    I have not seen anyone complain about newer vet trials being too easy.

    These changes are once again going to bring down the top 1% of players a teeny tiny bit, while the rest of us mere mortals who are doing above average but not top 1% DPS will continue to struggle and wont be able to stay in our vet trial groups because of these nerfs.
    Edited by Katahdin on September 17, 2019 5:20AM
    Beta tester November 2013
  • Elwendryll
    Elwendryll
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    Trials need adjustment, and having a team full of Necro DDs shouldn't be mandatory to get vSS HM Speedrun.

    Right now the first thing that comes to mind is "We need to clear Navhiintas HM before the patch comes live or we'll never get it".
    PC - EU - France - AD
    Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
    Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
    Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.

    All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH
  • Skjaldbjorn
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    I do appreciate that instead of dumpstering the Necro ult and starting over, the source of a lot of the power creep, they just dumpstered literally everything else and called it a day. Beautiful.
  • AgaTheGreat
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    I completely agree with you. Whereas achievements like IR, TTT are possible on console, Godslayer is completely out of our reach. We don't have access to QOL like dressing room or skill trackers, heck, even our performance is rubbish. We still have invisible adds on last boss vet sunspire.

    VSS achievements have been designed with PC in mind, if you find it hard imagine what's going on on xbox or PS4
    PS4 EU Aga_The_Grey - retired | PC EU AgaTheGreat
  • iris56
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    I could not agree more.

    Difficult content shouldn't be easy, but it should be possible, and it shouldn't take addons and a broken class to achieve it.
  • Ozby
    Ozby
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    Agree with you OP completely.
    PC NA
    Aurora Bravepaw (Healden), Basks in Fire (DKTank), Bran Artlion (Magplar), Brindel Seedthorne (Stamden WW), Brugo Gargak (Stamcro), Casimir Delmar (StamDK), Falco Bastion (Stamsorc), Fus Ro Dah (Stamplar), Gandalff the Gay (Petsorc), Jo-Qinan Betula (Magden), Laveera Hex (Magcro), Raine Whitestag (Stamden), Raised by Bears (Wardentank), Ralak Rotheart (Healcro), Selene Sunshadow MagDK), Shadow Mirage (NBTank), Slythe Rattlebone (Healplar), Ulfnor Dragonslayer (Tankcro).
  • themaddaedra
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    Couldn't agree more. It's also sad to see a lot of end game players saying stacking stam necros is no different than stacking NBs in previous patches.

    People stacked NBs for more score, but you could still very well do TTT/IR/GH with almost any other class. Now you don't stack necros for more score. You stack them or you forget about Godslayer. That alone is a terrible thing.
    PC|EU
  • code65536
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    There are two problems here.

    The first is the balance problem of Major Vulnerability, which is something people have commented on since Elsweyr hit PTS and no action was taken until now, 2 patches later.

    The second is the 30-minute time-limit for Sunspire speedrun.

    @ZOS_Finn When we told you during the Elsweyr PTS that 30 minutes was too tight, you said that you had faith that it was achievable. And, yes, you were right, it was achievable.

    But it requires a group fully-stacked with stamina necros. It requires strategies such as ignoring the statues with a third tank that were so unorthodox that people asked you if such strategies were legit or, if like the early wing thrash cheese, were going to be patched out.

    Score competition is what gives content life beyond achievements. People still run vMA long after they get their weapons and their Flawless because there is (or rather, was, until the Scalebreaker changes dampened interest there) an element of score competition. A 40-minute limit for the speed-run would still place Godslayer well out of reach for most of the raiding community, but it wouldn't straightjacket the content in the way 30 minutes does now. And maybe if people weren't so burnt out by Godslayer, they'd be more likely to continue running the content afterwards for score instead leaving it all behind after they're done.
    Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU

    Dungeons and Trials:
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