Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

- Against DK, never cloak too close to them, they got a lot of tools to reveal you when you're close to them but none when you're a bit far, just roll with your bow if you got one (and use snare immune if needed) and sprint for 0,5 / 1 sec before to cloak.
- Always get your debuffs somewhere on your screen to see when is gonna pop delay abilities aka Purifying Light / Curse and act in consequence.
- Against Templars, again, never cloak in front of them, if you got issue when one or more templars in on you, use a snare immune (Obligatory with jabs and purif AOE that slows you down) before to get a bit of distance.
- Magsorcs got Streak and Curse usually to reveal you, pets also are annoying to fight and can hit you through cloak (especially that horrible Atronach), there isn't a lot of counterplay to that except get away from Atro and prepare for the moment curse hit.
- Stamsorc can very easily reveal you when you're close to him with Hurricane, but don't have any tool to reveal you from range, just get away from him before to cloak, which can sometimes be very difficult given their mobility, shade is the best help there.
- Warden got their shalks, don't cloak if you saw them cast it (and block too btw), permafrost is also a pain in the ass (shade is the best way to deal with it, but if you can't use it for some reason, snare immune + roll / sprint and block 2 or 3 second (not sure what is it exactly, I got the timing but can't tell what it is in sec) after it started to avoid the stun is the best way to deal with it, or if you can allow yourself to do so, just tank it and play defensive.
- Can't tell much about Necro, Ik their skeleton can hit you through cloak so don't be surprise, but tbh I didn't play as much as usual since his release and I rarely see any of them, and even more rarely threatening ones.
- Stamblade and Magblade usually got nothing but Mark or Fear, which is easy to avoid (just play defensive during Mark Timer and hide behind a obstacle if he tries to keep it up, fear can reveal you if you cloak in front of them but they can't use it after that coz of your immunity.
- For Detect pots, well it's easy to guess most of the time, but it becomes very difficult if there's a lot of people on you, try to look who's the one using it, learn the range and guess the duration of the pot and get away from him before to cloak, also, if you're 1vX and wants to take them down, try to kill him first if possible, people with detect usually are the most painful one in these situations given the difficulty to react properly (sometimes it's very difficult to guess if that's some random AOE or someone with pots that revealed you when there's a lot of people on ya, and a little window can easily kill you)
- Same for Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for Detect pots, learn the range, spot the one using it, get away from him to use cloak and try to focus him if possible, it's way easier to deal with Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for detect pots coz you can easily guess who use it just by looking at them.

Also, always run to your right or left after your cloak, people for some reason usually always try to hit in the same direction : the one you're gone (maybe because most blades keep going in the same direction), this reflex is especially effective against Warden Shalk and Sorc Streak.

And most important of all, adapt to the situation, what I told apply to most players but they don't play the same way and with the same build, some magplars are healbot without jabs and aren't a threat at all (well they are annoying to kill people, but don't give much when it comes to offensive), some will be magsorc spamming streak with detect pots and you won't be able to use cloak at all except with a good shade, some got gapcloser and will spam it to stay close to you and be sure to be able to reveal you, while others don't even know how to play against and basically are harmless when you use it.
Look for people in these fights and try to get a clear vision of your ennemies : Who is the most problematic ? What's their build ? How do they play ? Answers to these question will help you to know how to use cloak properly against them.
Personnally, I play only in pvp and knows most names on no-cp campaign EU, it helps a lot to answer to these questions and get a clear general view of the fight.

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak, first thing that comes in my mind is the Heavy Attack from Thunder Staff, for some reason it breaks cloak sometimes, maybe that's the passiv that deals AOE near the one focus that don't work correctly or the projectile at the end maybe break it for some reason.

I hope it helped you, you won't master any of this before months, it requires a lot of thinking very fast and you have to think of it actively first, most of this became a reflex to me and I do it naturally, I can focus on more other things at the same time, but keep trying, even the best Stamblade out there was a newbie for a moment, I was myself maybe one of the worst that you could see in pvp when I started (worse than the average AD nb to tell ya !).

Also, don't go for ganker build if your goal is to become one of these unkillable nightblades weaving on a zerg, a ganker build is totally different and don't have much ressources to deal with counters, they sacrifice a lot of survivability to maximise their damage and just can't react as properly as others no matter how good they are.

It really amazes me how much effort people like you put into anwsering my posts. Its much appriciated! I like how you approached counters to each class seperatly pointing out specific skills. Knowledge about all classes is the reason i started, and Will SOON be done, with levelig 15 chars and getting them prepared for pvp. This of course slows down the progress but thats what it takes. Like you pointed out even pros were noobs once. Would you be so kind to share a solid build that based on your experience has the tools that you need to be a good nb? Again Thanks for your respone!

Zabagad wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

[...]

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak.
[...]

Wow - what a great post and what a lot of information!

I guess the opener should print this out, because what he might not know - Lybal is maybe the best NB on PC EU non-CP (I cannot say that for sure, because im not good enough to judge), but for sure the best one I met so far in all my (little) PvP experiences.

My first day in a cyro campaign (after a PVE event which brought me there and made me interested in PvP) was starting with a death recap from Lybal. That day and the next few days I collected maybe 30-50 of recaps with Lybal inside

Most impressive were the situation where we (AD) were entering a keep. After it was our keep there were 20-40 AD people running from left to right, back and force like chickens, for maybe 10-15min. Sometimes I saw that there was an enemy - but only for a very short moment. At the end of that I saw a dead Lybal on the ground - (I saw this happen a few more times and sometimes I guess he survived even that ) and I saw how this guy looked and which level he had and so on. I didnt know why some of the people tried to sneak there - because he was dead already. I understood that later

So its nice to read his input - specially for me, since I was building my two PvP chars with Lybal in mind and tried to give them as much counter to NB and cloak then possible. Good to see that both char which I use, are ready to slot (or have that skills always in the bar) all you mentioned for them.


To come back to the real topic - I guess one thing was missing and maybe it is somthing from the "other things" part?
I have on my Curse-Bar in addition a poison which should keep preventing a NB to go in stealth - so I have a double chance in the LA-Curse weave. I guess u dont slot the purge only for these 4-5sec? Maybe there is another reason why u dont mention it?


I'm pretty sure I'm not in your database @Lybal (even if I was using detection pots and streak when we chased him) - but maybe if u play more often in the future again, we will meet us and I try to get u down at least one time (For sure never 1vs1 and with many deaths before on my side.)
And I guess u already could feel it - my greatest respect for ur skills!

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

- Against DK, never cloak too close to them, they got a lot of tools to reveal you when you're close to them but none when you're a bit far, just roll with your bow if you got one (and use snare immune if needed) and sprint for 0,5 / 1 sec before to cloak.
- Always get your debuffs somewhere on your screen to see when is gonna pop delay abilities aka Purifying Light / Curse and act in consequence.
- Against Templars, again, never cloak in front of them, if you got issue when one or more templars in on you, use a snare immune (Obligatory with jabs and purif AOE that slows you down) before to get a bit of distance.
- Magsorcs got Streak and Curse usually to reveal you, pets also are annoying to fight and can hit you through cloak (especially that horrible Atronach), there isn't a lot of counterplay to that except get away from Atro and prepare for the moment curse hit.
- Stamsorc can very easily reveal you when you're close to him with Hurricane, but don't have any tool to reveal you from range, just get away from him before to cloak, which can sometimes be very difficult given their mobility, shade is the best help there.
- Warden got their shalks, don't cloak if you saw them cast it (and block too btw), permafrost is also a pain in the ass (shade is the best way to deal with it, but if you can't use it for some reason, snare immune + roll / sprint and block 2 or 3 second (not sure what is it exactly, I got the timing but can't tell what it is in sec) after it started to avoid the stun is the best way to deal with it, or if you can allow yourself to do so, just tank it and play defensive.
- Can't tell much about Necro, Ik their skeleton can hit you through cloak so don't be surprise, but tbh I didn't play as much as usual since his release and I rarely see any of them, and even more rarely threatening ones.
- Stamblade and Magblade usually got nothing but Mark or Fear, which is easy to avoid (just play defensive during Mark Timer and hide behind a obstacle if he tries to keep it up, fear can reveal you if you cloak in front of them but they can't use it after that coz of your immunity.
- For Detect pots, well it's easy to guess most of the time, but it becomes very difficult if there's a lot of people on you, try to look who's the one using it, learn the range and guess the duration of the pot and get away from him before to cloak, also, if you're 1vX and wants to take them down, try to kill him first if possible, people with detect usually are the most painful one in these situations given the difficulty to react properly (sometimes it's very difficult to guess if that's some random AOE or someone with pots that revealed you when there's a lot of people on ya, and a little window can easily kill you)
- Same for Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for Detect pots, learn the range, spot the one using it, get away from him to use cloak and try to focus him if possible, it's way easier to deal with Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for detect pots coz you can easily guess who use it just by looking at them.

Also, always run to your right or left after your cloak, people for some reason usually always try to hit in the same direction : the one you're gone (maybe because most blades keep going in the same direction), this reflex is especially effective against Warden Shalk and Sorc Streak.

And most important of all, adapt to the situation, what I told apply to most players but they don't play the same way and with the same build, some magplars are healbot without jabs and aren't a threat at all (well they are annoying to kill people, but don't give much when it comes to offensive), some will be magsorc spamming streak with detect pots and you won't be able to use cloak at all except with a good shade, some got gapcloser and will spam it to stay close to you and be sure to be able to reveal you, while others don't even know how to play against and basically are harmless when you use it.
Look for people in these fights and try to get a clear vision of your ennemies : Who is the most problematic ? What's their build ? How do they play ? Answers to these question will help you to know how to use cloak properly against them.
Personnally, I play only in pvp and knows most names on no-cp campaign EU, it helps a lot to answer to these questions and get a clear general view of the fight.

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak, first thing that comes in my mind is the Heavy Attack from Thunder Staff, for some reason it breaks cloak sometimes, maybe that's the passiv that deals AOE near the one focus that don't work correctly or the projectile at the end maybe break it for some reason.

I hope it helped you, you won't master any of this before months, it requires a lot of thinking very fast and you have to think of it actively first, most of this became a reflex to me and I do it naturally, I can focus on more other things at the same time, but keep trying, even the best Stamblade out there was a newbie for a moment, I was myself maybe one of the worst that you could see in pvp when I started (worse than the average AD nb to tell ya !).

Also, don't go for ganker build if your goal is to become one of these unkillable nightblades weaving on a zerg, a ganker build is totally different and don't have much ressources to deal with counters, they sacrifice a lot of survivability to maximise their damage and just can't react as properly as others no matter how good they are.

It really amazes me how much effort people like you put into anwsering my posts. Its much appriciated! I like how you approached counters to each class seperatly pointing out specific skills. Knowledge about all classes is the reason i started, and Will SOON be done, with levelig 15 chars and getting them prepared for pvp. This of course slows down the progress but thats what it takes. Like you pointed out even pros were noobs once. Would you be so kind to share a solid build that based on your experience has the tools that you need to be a good nb? Again Thanks for your respone!

I don't have much things to do during my free time (can't play unfortunately) these weeks, so I can take all my time to write on forums, I'm a bit perfectionist and wants to be as precise and clear as possible and most of the time I usually can't answer due to a lack of time or just because I'm lazy

For your build, I can give you my actual sets and skills :

- Bloodspawn
- Essence Thief (on my mainbar only)
- Bonepirate
- Master Bow

All tri-stats enchant, double health poison on my 2H, Infused Bow with Weapon damage enchant backbar, 5 impen, 2 well-fifted, infused jewel.

Skills mainbar (2h) : Executionner, Rally, Surprise Attack, Relentless Focus, Turn Evil, Onslaugh
Skills backbar (bow) : Shuffle, Poison Injection, Shadow Image, Vigor, Cloak, Soul Siphon
(I'm planning to try Undo as defensive ult this patch coz of the cast time that is horrible to react correctly, but I'm too lazy to upgrade psijic skill line rank 10 on my EP char and I got very annoyed last time I tried it due to the ult not working, killing me more than saving me.)

I don't have much interest for maths in ESO so I make my builds more on my feeling while trying it, I usually try a lot of different sets (sometimes a bit creative) and skills after each patch before to stick on one build.

My build is made for no-cp pvp, since I only play here, for CP builds, that are different due to the fact that stats don't have the same value and you've got less sustain in no-cp, maybe there's things with maths and CP but I don't know a thing about that, check Sniker videos, he does the maths behind and optimize very well his build, and it's a really good stamblade, you can be sure to get good builds there (and stamblade content too).
Even if a build made for no-CP won't be optimal for CP, and vice versa, it'll stay pretty good, a build don't become total crap while swapping from CP to no-CP.
Also for Mace, Axe or Sword on your 2H, I'm pretty sure in CP Mace is the best by far, but in no-cp, due to the fact that people got less resistance (or if you play Onslaugh like me), it lose value, Axe used to be bis for no-cp but idk after the changes on bleed, I play with a Mace actually (mostly coz it took me 50 runs on WGT to get my Essence Thief weapon and I don't want to run it ever again) but an Axe or Sword wouldn't surprise me for no-cp.

And even if you copy my build or Sniker builds, try your own things too, me, him and you don't have the same exact playstyle, you're not gonna put yourself in such dangerous situations than me when you begin and will feel like you don't need that much sustain but you'll need to keep adjusting your stats (with jewel enchants and mundus stone) to get just the right amount while your playstyle evolve.

My skills are actually the same as Sniker skills (except for incap), but before I used to run with Forward Momentum to get a slot and place meditate to get 0 issue with my sustain in no-cp (and I was playing a lingering pots with health and Stam, since I needed less mag recov due to meditate), and take Troll King to compensate the lack of healing (I was still squichier due to the lack of mitigation from Shuffle / BS so more open to burst)
Also I'm a Khajiit, so I have to build less in mag recovery and more in stam recovery, depending on your race you should adjust your stats too.

And maybe you're not rich too, builds without Bonepirate are more optimal with golden food but it's a bit expensive, and I'm personnally poor so I like it a lot.

Zabagad wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

[...]

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak.
[...]

Wow - what a great post and what a lot of information!

I guess the opener should print this out, because what he might not know - Lybal is maybe the best NB on PC EU non-CP (I cannot say that for sure, because im not good enough to judge), but for sure the best one I met so far in all my (little) PvP experiences.

My first day in a cyro campaign (after a PVE event which brought me there and made me interested in PvP) was starting with a death recap from Lybal. That day and the next few days I collected maybe 30-50 of recaps with Lybal inside

Most impressive were the situation where we (AD) were entering a keep. After it was our keep there were 20-40 AD people running from left to right, back and force like chickens, for maybe 10-15min. Sometimes I saw that there was an enemy - but only for a very short moment. At the end of that I saw a dead Lybal on the ground - (I saw this happen a few more times and sometimes I guess he survived even that ) and I saw how this guy looked and which level he had and so on. I didnt know why some of the people tried to sneak there - because he was dead already. I understood that later

So its nice to read his input - specially for me, since I was building my two PvP chars with Lybal in mind and tried to give them as much counter to NB and cloak then possible. Good to see that both char which I use, are ready to slot (or have that skills always in the bar) all you mentioned for them.


To come back to the real topic - I guess one thing was missing and maybe it is somthing from the "other things" part?
I have on my Curse-Bar in addition a poison which should keep preventing a NB to go in stealth - so I have a double chance in the LA-Curse weave. I guess u dont slot the purge only for these 4-5sec? Maybe there is another reason why u dont mention it?


I'm pretty sure I'm not in your database @Lybal (even if I was using detection pots and streak when we chased him) - but maybe if u play more often in the future again, we will meet us and I try to get u down at least one time (For sure never 1vs1 and with many deaths before on my side.)
And I guess u already could feel it - my greatest respect for ur skills!

Thx a lot for all these compliments

I won't talk much about the first part coz I don't really like to compliment myself in any way, tbh these message are pretty embarrassing

And it's true, I forgot the fact that you can take poisons to counter cloak, people use it soooo rarely I didn't think about it
I react to it the same way as Magelight or Detect pots since it's the same mechanic (one poison works like magelight and an other like detect pot), the one that works like detect pots puts an effect on you with an icon that looks like an eye with a purple background.
There's some subtile difference, like the fact that the poison which act as a detect pot don't have range restrictions and you can easily know when someone use it by looking at your debuffs, but that's basically the same thing.

But sry to disappoint you, you won't be able to use it on me, atleast next month, coz I comeback AD side for the next campaign

In the list of "other", there's also a set that puts on you a dot that reveals you each tic, idk if that's a bug or not (it shows a little animation on each tick so maybe there's an AOE effect attach to the dot that reveals me) or what is the set, I just learned the icon (weird staff (dunno what it is) on a black background) to see when I got it on me and be able to react properly.

EDIT : Oh, and ofc I don't use purge to counter poisons or anything, purge is such a bad skill on stamnb, it cost way too much magicka and take a slot, that's very huge for what it does, a skill and all my magicka dedicated to cloak and shade will give me way much more survivability than a purge.

I havet got time to read your post thouroughly but im gonna do it and im gonna treat your advice religiously as you obviously are the kind of nb i want to become. MUCH APPRICIATED ❤️

Lybal wrote: »

[...]
(I'm planning to try Undo as defensive ult this patch coz of the cast time that is horrible to react correctly, but I'm too lazy to upgrade psijic skill line rank 10 on my EP char and I got very annoyed last time I tried it due to the ult not working, killing me more than saving me.)

[...]

I won't talk much about the first part coz I don't really like to compliment myself in any way, tbh these message are pretty embarrassing

And it's true, I forgot the fact that you can take poisons to counter cloak, people use it soooo rarely I didn't think about it
I react to it the same way as Magelight or Detect pots since it's the same mechanic (one poison works like magelight and an other like detect pot), the one that works like detect pots puts an effect on you with an icon that looks like an eye with a purple background.
There's some subtile difference, like the fact that the poison which act as a detect pot don't have range restrictions and you can easily know when someone use it by looking at your debuffs, but that's basically the same thing.

But sry to disappoint you, you won't be able to use it on me, atleast next month, coz I comeback AD side for the next campaign

[...]

"Lybal wrote:

(and I was playing a lingering pots with health and Stam, since I needed less mag recov due to meditate)

Zabagad wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

[...]
(I'm planning to try Undo as defensive ult this patch coz of the cast time that is horrible to react correctly, but I'm too lazy to upgrade psijic skill line rank 10 on my EP char and I got very annoyed last time I tried it due to the ult not working, killing me more than saving me.)

[...]

I won't talk much about the first part coz I don't really like to compliment myself in any way, tbh these message are pretty embarrassing

And it's true, I forgot the fact that you can take poisons to counter cloak, people use it soooo rarely I didn't think about it
I react to it the same way as Magelight or Detect pots since it's the same mechanic (one poison works like magelight and an other like detect pot), the one that works like detect pots puts an effect on you with an icon that looks like an eye with a purple background.
There's some subtile difference, like the fact that the poison which act as a detect pot don't have range restrictions and you can easily know when someone use it by looking at your debuffs, but that's basically the same thing.

But sry to disappoint you, you won't be able to use it on me, atleast next month, coz I comeback AD side for the next campaign

[...]

Sorry if I'm ashamed you - that was not my intention but understandable. I hope it was only that, because the translation of "embarrassing" into my language has a large range - from ashamed till annyoed (pissed off)...
And Mayrael showed that you have a great reputation, too. But better to stop here...

Two open points for me (beside I'm a bit surprised by your sets, but I'm looking from the other side of the medal on this thread, and so its not so importend for me) - first you wrote:

"Lybal wrote:

(and I was playing a lingering pots with health and Stam, since I needed less mag recov due to meditate)

I missed something here - either I missed that Pots exists with Lingering health and Stam and Health, or I missed where Health and Stam are refering to. Maybe clothes Enchantment?

Second - ty for your input to the poison(s) - I use them now for some month, but didnt know there were 2 versions I use(d) always only one of them and didn't realized that there is another possible poison. But I guess the "old one" was the better one for me anyway, but in the future I will now always think about the second "new" poison too.

Finaly you dont disappoint me - nice to hear that you will play (more?) in the future - even if I didn't play much in the last 4 month, I realized that you were not so much in the highscore as before.

And if I see you online (but maybe I will switch to CP campaingn) I will whisper to you to share my "Undo-experience" - but that's OT here and maybe by then you know already more about undo then I do.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

magelight will bring them out but some nb's re-cloack in less of a second

nihirisutou wrote: »

Taking damage (including DOT, AoE, Hurricane) will break cloak.

+ Magelight.