Cloak - What getes you out of cloak / prevents cloaking?

xxthir13enxx · September 2019

RIP My Scorching Flare!!!
You were my nearest n dearest friend in Cyro!
You Will Be Missed!!!!
Being able to 1 shot full groups with Scorch n VD was a True Pleasure!!!

Lybal · September 2019

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

- Against DK, never cloak too close to them, they got a lot of tools to reveal you when you're close to them but none when you're a bit far, just roll with your bow if you got one (and use snare immune if needed) and sprint for 0,5 / 1 sec before to cloak.
- Always get your debuffs somewhere on your screen to see when is gonna pop delay abilities aka Purifying Light / Curse and act in consequence.
- Against Templars, again, never cloak in front of them, if you got issue when one or more templars in on you, use a snare immune (Obligatory with jabs and purif AOE that slows you down) before to get a bit of distance.
- Magsorcs got Streak and Curse usually to reveal you, pets also are annoying to fight and can hit you through cloak (especially that horrible Atronach), there isn't a lot of counterplay to that except get away from Atro and prepare for the moment curse hit.
- Stamsorc can very easily reveal you when you're close to him with Hurricane, but don't have any tool to reveal you from range, just get away from him before to cloak, which can sometimes be very difficult given their mobility, shade is the best help there.
- Warden got their shalks, don't cloak if you saw them cast it (and block too btw), permafrost is also a pain in the ass (shade is the best way to deal with it, but if you can't use it for some reason, snare immune + roll / sprint and block 2 or 3 second (not sure what is it exactly, I got the timing but can't tell what it is in sec) after it started to avoid the stun is the best way to deal with it, or if you can allow yourself to do so, just tank it and play defensive.
- Can't tell much about Necro, Ik their skeleton can hit you through cloak so don't be surprise, but tbh I didn't play as much as usual since his release and I rarely see any of them, and even more rarely threatening ones.
- Stamblade and Magblade usually got nothing but Mark or Fear, which is easy to avoid (just play defensive during Mark Timer and hide behind a obstacle if he tries to keep it up, fear can reveal you if you cloak in front of them but they can't use it after that coz of your immunity.
- For Detect pots, well it's easy to guess most of the time, but it becomes very difficult if there's a lot of people on you, try to look who's the one using it, learn the range and guess the duration of the pot and get away from him before to cloak, also, if you're 1vX and wants to take them down, try to kill him first if possible, people with detect usually are the most painful one in these situations given the difficulty to react properly (sometimes it's very difficult to guess if that's some random AOE or someone with pots that revealed you when there's a lot of people on ya, and a little window can easily kill you)
- Same for Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for Detect pots, learn the range, spot the one using it, get away from him to use cloak and try to focus him if possible, it's way easier to deal with Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for detect pots coz you can easily guess who use it just by looking at them.

Also, always run to your right or left after your cloak, people for some reason usually always try to hit in the same direction : the one you're gone (maybe because most blades keep going in the same direction), this reflex is especially effective against Warden Shalk and Sorc Streak.

And most important of all, adapt to the situation, what I told apply to most players but they don't play the same way and with the same build, some magplars are healbot without jabs and aren't a threat at all (well they are annoying to kill people, but don't give much when it comes to offensive), some will be magsorc spamming streak with detect pots and you won't be able to use cloak at all except with a good shade, some got gapcloser and will spam it to stay close to you and be sure to be able to reveal you, while others don't even know how to play against and basically are harmless when you use it.
Look for people in these fights and try to get a clear vision of your ennemies : Who is the most problematic ? What's their build ? How do they play ? Answers to these question will help you to know how to use cloak properly against them.
Personnally, I play only in pvp and knows most names on no-cp campaign EU, it helps a lot to answer to these questions and get a clear general view of the fight.

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak, first thing that comes in my mind is the Heavy Attack from Thunder Staff, for some reason it breaks cloak sometimes, maybe that's the passiv that deals AOE near the one focus that don't work correctly or the projectile at the end maybe break it for some reason.

I hope it helped you, you won't master any of this before months, it requires a lot of thinking very fast and you have to think of it actively first, most of this became a reflex to me and I do it naturally, I can focus on more other things at the same time, but keep trying, even the best Stamblade out there was a newbie for a moment, I was myself maybe one of the worst that you could see in pvp when I started (worse than the average AD nb to tell ya !).

Also, don't go for ganker build if your goal is to become one of these unkillable nightblades weaving on a zerg, a ganker build is totally different and don't have much ressources to deal with counters, they sacrifice a lot of survivability to maximise their damage and just can't react as properly as others no matter how good they are.

It really amazes me how much effort people like you put into anwsering my posts. Its much appriciated! I like how you approached counters to each class seperatly pointing out specific skills. Knowledge about all classes is the reason i started, and Will SOON be done, with levelig 15 chars and getting them prepared for pvp. This of course slows down the progress but thats what it takes. Like you pointed out even pros were noobs once. Would you be so kind to share a solid build that based on your experience has the tools that you need to be a good nb? Again Thanks for your respone!

I don't have much things to do during my free time (can't play unfortunately) these weeks, so I can take all my time to write on forums, I'm a bit perfectionist and wants to be as precise and clear as possible and most of the time I usually can't answer due to a lack of time or just because I'm lazy

For your build, I can give you my actual sets and skills :

- Bloodspawn
- Essence Thief (on my mainbar only)
- Bonepirate
- Master Bow

All tri-stats enchant, double health poison on my 2H, Infused Bow with Weapon damage enchant backbar, 5 impen, 2 well-fifted, infused jewel.

Skills mainbar (2h) : Executionner, Rally, Surprise Attack, Relentless Focus, Turn Evil, Onslaugh
Skills backbar (bow) : Shuffle, Poison Injection, Shadow Image, Vigor, Cloak, Soul Siphon
(I'm planning to try Undo as defensive ult this patch coz of the cast time that is horrible to react correctly, but I'm too lazy to upgrade psijic skill line rank 10 on my EP char and I got very annoyed last time I tried it due to the ult not working, killing me more than saving me.)

I don't have much interest for maths in ESO so I make my builds more on my feeling while trying it, I usually try a lot of different sets (sometimes a bit creative) and skills after each patch before to stick on one build.

My build is made for no-cp pvp, since I only play here, for CP builds, that are different due to the fact that stats don't have the same value and you've got less sustain in no-cp, maybe there's things with maths and CP but I don't know a thing about that, check Sniker videos, he does the maths behind and optimize very well his build, and he's a really good stamblade, you can be sure to get good builds there.
Even if a build made for no-CP won't be optimal for CP, and vice versa, it'll stay pretty good, a build don't become total crap while swapping from CP to no-CP.
Also for Mace, Axe or Sword on your 2H, I'm pretty sure in CP Mace is the best, but in no-cp, due to the fact that people got less resistance (or if you play Onslaugh like me), it lose value, Axe used to be bis for no-cp but idk after the changes on bleed idk.
I play with a Mace actually (mostly coz it took me 50 runs on WGT to get my Essence Thief weapon and I don't want to run it ever again) but an Axe or Sword wouldn't surprise me for no-cp.

And even if you copy my build or Sniker builds, try your own things too, me, him and you don't have the same exact playstyle, you're not gonna put yourself in such dangerous situations than me when you begin and will feel like you don't need that much sustain but you'll need to keep adjusting your stats (with jewel enchants and mundus stone) to get just the right amount while your playstyle evolve.

My skills are actually the same as Sniker skills (except for incap), but before I used to run with Forward Momentum to get a slot and place meditate to get 0 issue with my sustain in no-cp (and I was playing a lingering pots with health and Stam, since I needed less mag recov due to meditate), and take Troll King to compensate the lack of healing (I was still squichier due to the lack of mitigation from Shuffle / BS so more open to burst)
Also I'm a Khajiit, so I have to build less in mag recovery and more in stam recovery, depending on your race you should adjust your stats too.

And maybe you're not rich too, builds without Bonepirate are more optimal with golden food but it's a bit expensive, and I'm personnally poor so I like it a lot.

Zabagad wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

[...]

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak.
[...]

Wow - what a great post and what a lot of information!

I guess the opener should print this out, because what he might not know - Lybal is maybe the best NB on PC EU non-CP (I cannot say that for sure, because im not good enough to judge), but for sure the best one I met so far in all my (little) PvP experiences.

My first day in a cyro campaign (after a PVE event which brought me there and made me interested in PvP) was starting with a death recap from Lybal. That day and the next few days I collected maybe 30-50 of recaps with Lybal inside

Most impressive were the situation where we (AD) were entering a keep. After it was our keep there were 20-40 AD people running from left to right, back and force like chickens, for maybe 10-15min. Sometimes I saw that there was an enemy - but only for a very short moment. At the end of that I saw a dead Lybal on the ground - (I saw this happen a few more times and sometimes I guess he survived even that ) and I saw how this guy looked and which level he had and so on. I didnt know why some of the people tried to sneak there - because he was dead already. I understood that later

So its nice to read his input - specially for me, since I was building my two PvP chars with Lybal in mind and tried to give them as much counter to NB and cloak then possible. Good to see that both char which I use, are ready to slot (or have that skills always in the bar) all you mentioned for them.

To come back to the real topic - I guess one thing was missing and maybe it is somthing from the "other things" part?
I have on my Curse-Bar in addition a poison which should keep preventing a NB to go in stealth - so I have a double chance in the LA-Curse weave. I guess u dont slot the purge only for these 4-5sec? Maybe there is another reason why u dont mention it?

I'm pretty sure I'm not in your database @Lybal (even if I was using detection pots and streak when we chased him) - but maybe if u play more often in the future again, we will meet us and I try to get u down at least one time (For sure never 1vs1 and with many deaths before on my side.)
And I guess u already could feel it - my greatest respect for ur skills!

Thx a lot for all these compliments

I won't talk much about the first part coz I don't really like to compliment myself in any way, tbh these message are pretty embarrassing

And it's true, I forgot the fact that you can take poisons to counter cloak, people use it soooo rarely I didn't think about it
I react to it the same way as Magelight or Detect pots since it's the same mechanic (one poison works like magelight and an other like detect pot), the one that works like detect pots puts an effect on you with an icon that looks like an eye with a purple background.
There's some subtile difference, like the fact that the poison which act as a detect pot don't have range restrictions and you can easily know when someone use it by looking at your debuffs, but that's basically the same thing.

But sry to disappoint you, you won't be able to use it on me, atleast next month, coz I comeback AD side for the next campaign

In the list of "other", there's also a set that puts on you a dot that reveals you each tic, idk if that's a bug or not (it shows a little animation on each tick so maybe there's an AOE effect attach to the dot that reveals me) or what is the set, I just learned the icon (weird staff (dunno what it is) on a black background) to see when I got it on me and be able to react properly.

EDIT : Oh, and ofc I don't use purge to counter poisons or anything, purge is such a bad skill on stamnb, it cost way too much magicka and take a slot, that's very huge for what it does, a skill and all my magicka dedicated to cloak and shade will give me way much more survivability than a purge.

Mariusghost84 · September 2019

Lybal wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

- Against DK, never cloak too close to them, they got a lot of tools to reveal you when you're close to them but none when you're a bit far, just roll with your bow if you got one (and use snare immune if needed) and sprint for 0,5 / 1 sec before to cloak.
- Always get your debuffs somewhere on your screen to see when is gonna pop delay abilities aka Purifying Light / Curse and act in consequence.
- Against Templars, again, never cloak in front of them, if you got issue when one or more templars in on you, use a snare immune (Obligatory with jabs and purif AOE that slows you down) before to get a bit of distance.
- Magsorcs got Streak and Curse usually to reveal you, pets also are annoying to fight and can hit you through cloak (especially that horrible Atronach), there isn't a lot of counterplay to that except get away from Atro and prepare for the moment curse hit.
- Stamsorc can very easily reveal you when you're close to him with Hurricane, but don't have any tool to reveal you from range, just get away from him before to cloak, which can sometimes be very difficult given their mobility, shade is the best help there.
- Warden got their shalks, don't cloak if you saw them cast it (and block too btw), permafrost is also a pain in the ass (shade is the best way to deal with it, but if you can't use it for some reason, snare immune + roll / sprint and block 2 or 3 second (not sure what is it exactly, I got the timing but can't tell what it is in sec) after it started to avoid the stun is the best way to deal with it, or if you can allow yourself to do so, just tank it and play defensive.
- Can't tell much about Necro, Ik their skeleton can hit you through cloak so don't be surprise, but tbh I didn't play as much as usual since his release and I rarely see any of them, and even more rarely threatening ones.
- Stamblade and Magblade usually got nothing but Mark or Fear, which is easy to avoid (just play defensive during Mark Timer and hide behind a obstacle if he tries to keep it up, fear can reveal you if you cloak in front of them but they can't use it after that coz of your immunity.
- For Detect pots, well it's easy to guess most of the time, but it becomes very difficult if there's a lot of people on you, try to look who's the one using it, learn the range and guess the duration of the pot and get away from him before to cloak, also, if you're 1vX and wants to take them down, try to kill him first if possible, people with detect usually are the most painful one in these situations given the difficulty to react properly (sometimes it's very difficult to guess if that's some random AOE or someone with pots that revealed you when there's a lot of people on ya, and a little window can easily kill you)
- Same for Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for Detect pots, learn the range, spot the one using it, get away from him to use cloak and try to focus him if possible, it's way easier to deal with Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for detect pots coz you can easily guess who use it just by looking at them.

Also, always run to your right or left after your cloak, people for some reason usually always try to hit in the same direction : the one you're gone (maybe because most blades keep going in the same direction), this reflex is especially effective against Warden Shalk and Sorc Streak.

And most important of all, adapt to the situation, what I told apply to most players but they don't play the same way and with the same build, some magplars are healbot without jabs and aren't a threat at all (well they are annoying to kill people, but don't give much when it comes to offensive), some will be magsorc spamming streak with detect pots and you won't be able to use cloak at all except with a good shade, some got gapcloser and will spam it to stay close to you and be sure to be able to reveal you, while others don't even know how to play against and basically are harmless when you use it.
Look for people in these fights and try to get a clear vision of your ennemies : Who is the most problematic ? What's their build ? How do they play ? Answers to these question will help you to know how to use cloak properly against them.
Personnally, I play only in pvp and knows most names on no-cp campaign EU, it helps a lot to answer to these questions and get a clear general view of the fight.

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak, first thing that comes in my mind is the Heavy Attack from Thunder Staff, for some reason it breaks cloak sometimes, maybe that's the passiv that deals AOE near the one focus that don't work correctly or the projectile at the end maybe break it for some reason.

I hope it helped you, you won't master any of this before months, it requires a lot of thinking very fast and you have to think of it actively first, most of this became a reflex to me and I do it naturally, I can focus on more other things at the same time, but keep trying, even the best Stamblade out there was a newbie for a moment, I was myself maybe one of the worst that you could see in pvp when I started (worse than the average AD nb to tell ya !).

Also, don't go for ganker build if your goal is to become one of these unkillable nightblades weaving on a zerg, a ganker build is totally different and don't have much ressources to deal with counters, they sacrifice a lot of survivability to maximise their damage and just can't react as properly as others no matter how good they are.

It really amazes me how much effort people like you put into anwsering my posts. Its much appriciated! I like how you approached counters to each class seperatly pointing out specific skills. Knowledge about all classes is the reason i started, and Will SOON be done, with levelig 15 chars and getting them prepared for pvp. This of course slows down the progress but thats what it takes. Like you pointed out even pros were noobs once. Would you be so kind to share a solid build that based on your experience has the tools that you need to be a good nb? Again Thanks for your respone!

I don't have much things to do during my free time (can't play unfortunately) these weeks, so I can take all my time to write on forums, I'm a bit perfectionist and wants to be as precise and clear as possible and most of the time I usually can't answer due to a lack of time or just because I'm lazy

For your build, I can give you my actual sets and skills :

- Bloodspawn
- Essence Thief (on my mainbar only)
- Bonepirate
- Master Bow

All tri-stats enchant, double health poison on my 2H, Infused Bow with Weapon damage enchant backbar, 5 impen, 2 well-fifted, infused jewel.

Skills mainbar (2h) : Executionner, Rally, Surprise Attack, Relentless Focus, Turn Evil, Onslaugh
Skills backbar (bow) : Shuffle, Poison Injection, Shadow Image, Vigor, Cloak, Soul Siphon
(I'm planning to try Undo as defensive ult this patch coz of the cast time that is horrible to react correctly, but I'm too lazy to upgrade psijic skill line rank 10 on my EP char and I got very annoyed last time I tried it due to the ult not working, killing me more than saving me.)

I don't have much interest for maths in ESO so I make my builds more on my feeling while trying it, I usually try a lot of different sets (sometimes a bit creative) and skills after each patch before to stick on one build.

My build is made for no-cp pvp, since I only play here, for CP builds, that are different due to the fact that stats don't have the same value and you've got less sustain in no-cp, maybe there's things with maths and CP but I don't know a thing about that, check Sniker videos, he does the maths behind and optimize very well his build, and it's a really good stamblade, you can be sure to get good builds there (and stamblade content too).
Even if a build made for no-CP won't be optimal for CP, and vice versa, it'll stay pretty good, a build don't become total crap while swapping from CP to no-CP.
Also for Mace, Axe or Sword on your 2H, I'm pretty sure in CP Mace is the best by far, but in no-cp, due to the fact that people got less resistance (or if you play Onslaugh like me), it lose value, Axe used to be bis for no-cp but idk after the changes on bleed, I play with a Mace actually (mostly coz it took me 50 runs on WGT to get my Essence Thief weapon and I don't want to run it ever again) but an Axe or Sword wouldn't surprise me for no-cp.

And even if you copy my build or Sniker builds, try your own things too, me, him and you don't have the same exact playstyle, you're not gonna put yourself in such dangerous situations than me when you begin and will feel like you don't need that much sustain but you'll need to keep adjusting your stats (with jewel enchants and mundus stone) to get just the right amount while your playstyle evolve.

My skills are actually the same as Sniker skills (except for incap), but before I used to run with Forward Momentum to get a slot and place meditate to get 0 issue with my sustain in no-cp (and I was playing a lingering pots with health and Stam, since I needed less mag recov due to meditate), and take Troll King to compensate the lack of healing (I was still squichier due to the lack of mitigation from Shuffle / BS so more open to burst)
Also I'm a Khajiit, so I have to build less in mag recovery and more in stam recovery, depending on your race you should adjust your stats too.

And maybe you're not rich too, builds without Bonepirate are more optimal with golden food but it's a bit expensive, and I'm personnally poor so I like it a lot.

Zabagad wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

[...]

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak.
[...]

Wow - what a great post and what a lot of information!

I guess the opener should print this out, because what he might not know - Lybal is maybe the best NB on PC EU non-CP (I cannot say that for sure, because im not good enough to judge), but for sure the best one I met so far in all my (little) PvP experiences.

My first day in a cyro campaign (after a PVE event which brought me there and made me interested in PvP) was starting with a death recap from Lybal. That day and the next few days I collected maybe 30-50 of recaps with Lybal inside

Most impressive were the situation where we (AD) were entering a keep. After it was our keep there were 20-40 AD people running from left to right, back and force like chickens, for maybe 10-15min. Sometimes I saw that there was an enemy - but only for a very short moment. At the end of that I saw a dead Lybal on the ground - (I saw this happen a few more times and sometimes I guess he survived even that ) and I saw how this guy looked and which level he had and so on. I didnt know why some of the people tried to sneak there - because he was dead already. I understood that later

So its nice to read his input - specially for me, since I was building my two PvP chars with Lybal in mind and tried to give them as much counter to NB and cloak then possible. Good to see that both char which I use, are ready to slot (or have that skills always in the bar) all you mentioned for them.

To come back to the real topic - I guess one thing was missing and maybe it is somthing from the "other things" part?
I have on my Curse-Bar in addition a poison which should keep preventing a NB to go in stealth - so I have a double chance in the LA-Curse weave. I guess u dont slot the purge only for these 4-5sec? Maybe there is another reason why u dont mention it?

I'm pretty sure I'm not in your database @Lybal (even if I was using detection pots and streak when we chased him) - but maybe if u play more often in the future again, we will meet us and I try to get u down at least one time (For sure never 1vs1 and with many deaths before on my side.)
And I guess u already could feel it - my greatest respect for ur skills!

Thx a lot for all these compliments

I won't talk much about the first part coz I don't really like to compliment myself in any way, tbh these message are pretty embarrassing

And it's true, I forgot the fact that you can take poisons to counter cloak, people use it soooo rarely I didn't think about it
I react to it the same way as Magelight or Detect pots since it's the same mechanic (one poison works like magelight and an other like detect pot), the one that works like detect pots puts an effect on you with an icon that looks like an eye with a purple background.
There's some subtile difference, like the fact that the poison which act as a detect pot don't have range restrictions and you can easily know when someone use it by looking at your debuffs, but that's basically the same thing.

But sry to disappoint you, you won't be able to use it on me, atleast next month, coz I comeback AD side for the next campaign

In the list of "other", there's also a set that puts on you a dot that reveals you each tic, idk if that's a bug or not (it shows a little animation on each tick so maybe there's an AOE effect attach to the dot that reveals me) or what is the set, I just learned the icon (weird staff (dunno what it is) on a black background) to see when I got it on me and be able to react properly.

EDIT : Oh, and ofc I don't use purge to counter poisons or anything, purge is such a bad skill on stamnb, it cost way too much magicka and take a slot, that's very huge for what it does, a skill and all my magicka dedicated to cloak and shade will give me way much more survivability than a purge.

I havet got time to read your post thouroughly but im gonna do it and im gonna treat your advice religiously as you obviously are the kind of nb i want to become. MUCH APPRICIATED ❤️

Mariusghost84 · September 2019

Also. When i logged on last evening i got an email from a one of you dudes that read this thread and he offered to help out. You guys are an amazing bunch. I liked that a lot 👍

Mayrael · September 2019

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

- Against DK, never cloak too close to them, they got a lot of tools to reveal you when you're close to them but none when you're a bit far, just roll with your bow if you got one (and use snare immune if needed) and sprint for 0,5 / 1 sec before to cloak.
- Always get your debuffs somewhere on your screen to see when is gonna pop delay abilities aka Purifying Light / Curse and act in consequence.
- Against Templars, again, never cloak in front of them, if you got issue when one or more templars in on you, use a snare immune (Obligatory with jabs and purif AOE that slows you down) before to get a bit of distance.
- Magsorcs got Streak and Curse usually to reveal you, pets also are annoying to fight and can hit you through cloak (especially that horrible Atronach), there isn't a lot of counterplay to that except get away from Atro and prepare for the moment curse hit.
- Stamsorc can very easily reveal you when you're close to him with Hurricane, but don't have any tool to reveal you from range, just get away from him before to cloak, which can sometimes be very difficult given their mobility, shade is the best help there.
- Warden got their shalks, don't cloak if you saw them cast it (and block too btw), permafrost is also a pain in the ass (shade is the best way to deal with it, but if you can't use it for some reason, snare immune + roll / sprint and block 2 or 3 second (not sure what is it exactly, I got the timing but can't tell what it is in sec) after it started to avoid the stun is the best way to deal with it, or if you can allow yourself to do so, just tank it and play defensive.
- Can't tell much about Necro, Ik their skeleton can hit you through cloak so don't be surprise, but tbh I didn't play as much as usual since his release and I rarely see any of them, and even more rarely threatening ones.
- Stamblade and Magblade usually got nothing but Mark or Fear, which is easy to avoid (just play defensive during Mark Timer and hide behind a obstacle if he tries to keep it up, fear can reveal you if you cloak in front of them but they can't use it after that coz of your immunity.
- For Detect pots, well it's easy to guess most of the time, but it becomes very difficult if there's a lot of people on you, try to look who's the one using it, learn the range and guess the duration of the pot and get away from him before to cloak, also, if you're 1vX and wants to take them down, try to kill him first if possible, people with detect usually are the most painful one in these situations given the difficulty to react properly (sometimes it's very difficult to guess if that's some random AOE or someone with pots that revealed you when there's a lot of people on ya, and it can leads to bad decision, mostly mortal)
- Same for Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for Detect pots, learn the range, spot the one using it, get away from him to use cloak and try to focus him if possible, it's way easier to deal with Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for detect pots coz you can easily guess who use it just by looking at them.

Also, always run to your right or left after your cloak, people for some reason usually always try to hit in the same direction : the one you're gone (maybe because most blades keep going in the same direction), this reflex is especially effective against Warden Shalk and Sorc Streak.

And most important of all, adapt to the situation, what I told apply to most players but they don't play the same way and with the same build, some magplars are healbot without jabs and aren't a threat at all (well they are annoying to kill people, but don't give much when it comes to offensive), some will be magsorc spamming streak with detect pots and you won't be able to use cloak at all except with a good shade, some got gapcloser and will spam it to stay close to you and be sure to be able to reveal you, while others don't even know how to play against and basically are harmless when you use it.
Look for people in these fights and try to get a clear vision of your ennemies : Who is the most problematic ? What's their build ? How do they play ? Answers to these question will help you to know how to use cloak properly against them.
Personnally, I play only in pvp and knows most names on no-cp campaign EU, it helps a lot to answer to these questions and get a clear general view of the fight.

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak, first thing that comes in my mind is the Heavy Attack from Thunder Staff, for some reason it breaks cloak sometimes, maybe that's the passiv that deals AOE near the one focus that don't work correctly or the projectile at the end maybe break it for some reason.

I hope it helped you, you won't master any of this before months, it requires a lot of thinking very fast and you have to think of it actively first, most of this became a reflex to me and I do it naturally, I can focus on more other things at the same time, but keep trying, even the best Stamblade out there was a newbie for a moment, I was myself maybe one of the worst that you could see in pvp when I started (worse than the average AD nb to tell ya !).

Also, don't go for ganker build if your goal is to become one of these unkillable nightblades weaving on a zerg, a ganker build is totally different and don't have much ressources to deal with counters, they sacrifice a lot of survivability to maximise their damage and just can't react as properly as others no matter how good they are.

Listen to this man, hes one of the best NBs I've ever met

Lybal · September 2019

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

- Against DK, never cloak too close to them, they got a lot of tools to reveal you when you're close to them but none when you're a bit far, just roll with your bow if you got one (and use snare immune if needed) and sprint for 0,5 / 1 sec before to cloak.
- Always get your debuffs somewhere on your screen to see when is gonna pop delay abilities aka Purifying Light / Curse and act in consequence.
- Against Templars, again, never cloak in front of them, if you got issue when one or more templars in on you, use a snare immune (Obligatory with jabs and purif AOE that slows you down) before to get a bit of distance.
- Magsorcs got Streak and Curse usually to reveal you, pets also are annoying to fight and can hit you through cloak (especially that horrible Atronach), there isn't a lot of counterplay to that except get away from Atro and prepare for the moment curse hit.
- Stamsorc can very easily reveal you when you're close to him with Hurricane, but don't have any tool to reveal you from range, just get away from him before to cloak, which can sometimes be very difficult given their mobility, shade is the best help there.
- Warden got their shalks, don't cloak if you saw them cast it (and block too btw), permafrost is also a pain in the ass (shade is the best way to deal with it, but if you can't use it for some reason, snare immune + roll / sprint and block 2 or 3 second (not sure what is it exactly, I got the timing but can't tell what it is in sec) after it started to avoid the stun is the best way to deal with it, or if you can allow yourself to do so, just tank it and play defensive.
- Can't tell much about Necro, Ik their skeleton can hit you through cloak so don't be surprise, but tbh I didn't play as much as usual since his release and I rarely see any of them, and even more rarely threatening ones.
- Stamblade and Magblade usually got nothing but Mark or Fear, which is easy to avoid (just play defensive during Mark Timer and hide behind a obstacle if he tries to keep it up, fear can reveal you if you cloak in front of them but they can't use it after that coz of your immunity.
- For Detect pots, well it's easy to guess most of the time, but it becomes very difficult if there's a lot of people on you, try to look who's the one using it, learn the range and guess the duration of the pot and get away from him before to cloak, also, if you're 1vX and wants to take them down, try to kill him first if possible, people with detect usually are the most painful one in these situations given the difficulty to react properly (sometimes it's very difficult to guess if that's some random AOE or someone with pots that revealed you when there's a lot of people on ya, and a little window can easily kill you)
- Same for Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for Detect pots, learn the range, spot the one using it, get away from him to use cloak and try to focus him if possible, it's way easier to deal with Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for detect pots coz you can easily guess who use it just by looking at them.

Also, always run to your right or left after your cloak, people for some reason usually always try to hit in the same direction : the one you're gone (maybe because most blades keep going in the same direction), this reflex is especially effective against Warden Shalk and Sorc Streak.

And most important of all, adapt to the situation, what I told apply to most players but they don't play the same way and with the same build, some magplars are healbot without jabs and aren't a threat at all (well they are annoying to kill people, but don't give much when it comes to offensive), some will be magsorc spamming streak with detect pots and you won't be able to use cloak at all except with a good shade, some got gapcloser and will spam it to stay close to you and be sure to be able to reveal you, while others don't even know how to play against and basically are harmless when you use it.
Look for people in these fights and try to get a clear vision of your ennemies : Who is the most problematic ? What's their build ? How do they play ? Answers to these question will help you to know how to use cloak properly against them.
Personnally, I play only in pvp and knows most names on no-cp campaign EU, it helps a lot to answer to these questions and get a clear general view of the fight.

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak, first thing that comes in my mind is the Heavy Attack from Thunder Staff, for some reason it breaks cloak sometimes, maybe that's the passiv that deals AOE near the one focus that don't work correctly or the projectile at the end maybe break it for some reason.

I hope it helped you, you won't master any of this before months, it requires a lot of thinking very fast and you have to think of it actively first, most of this became a reflex to me and I do it naturally, I can focus on more other things at the same time, but keep trying, even the best Stamblade out there was a newbie for a moment, I was myself maybe one of the worst that you could see in pvp when I started (worse than the average AD nb to tell ya !).

Also, don't go for ganker build if your goal is to become one of these unkillable nightblades weaving on a zerg, a ganker build is totally different and don't have much ressources to deal with counters, they sacrifice a lot of survivability to maximise their damage and just can't react as properly as others no matter how good they are.

It really amazes me how much effort people like you put into anwsering my posts. Its much appriciated! I like how you approached counters to each class seperatly pointing out specific skills. Knowledge about all classes is the reason i started, and Will SOON be done, with levelig 15 chars and getting them prepared for pvp. This of course slows down the progress but thats what it takes. Like you pointed out even pros were noobs once. Would you be so kind to share a solid build that based on your experience has the tools that you need to be a good nb? Again Thanks for your respone!

I don't have much things to do during my free time (can't play unfortunately) these weeks, so I can take all my time to write on forums, I'm a bit perfectionist and wants to be as precise and clear as possible and most of the time I usually can't answer due to a lack of time or just because I'm lazy

For your build, I can give you my actual sets and skills :

- Bloodspawn
- Essence Thief (on my mainbar only)
- Bonepirate
- Master Bow

All tri-stats enchant, double health poison on my 2H, Infused Bow with Weapon damage enchant backbar, 5 impen, 2 well-fifted, infused jewel.

Skills mainbar (2h) : Executionner, Rally, Surprise Attack, Relentless Focus, Turn Evil, Onslaugh
Skills backbar (bow) : Shuffle, Poison Injection, Shadow Image, Vigor, Cloak, Soul Siphon
(I'm planning to try Undo as defensive ult this patch coz of the cast time that is horrible to react correctly, but I'm too lazy to upgrade psijic skill line rank 10 on my EP char and I got very annoyed last time I tried it due to the ult not working, killing me more than saving me.)

I don't have much interest for maths in ESO so I make my builds more on my feeling while trying it, I usually try a lot of different sets (sometimes a bit creative) and skills after each patch before to stick on one build.

My build is made for no-cp pvp, since I only play here, for CP builds, that are different due to the fact that stats don't have the same value and you've got less sustain in no-cp, maybe there's things with maths and CP but I don't know a thing about that, check Sniker videos, he does the maths behind and optimize very well his build, and it's a really good stamblade, you can be sure to get good builds there (and stamblade content too).
Even if a build made for no-CP won't be optimal for CP, and vice versa, it'll stay pretty good, a build don't become total crap while swapping from CP to no-CP.
Also for Mace, Axe or Sword on your 2H, I'm pretty sure in CP Mace is the best by far, but in no-cp, due to the fact that people got less resistance (or if you play Onslaugh like me), it lose value, Axe used to be bis for no-cp but idk after the changes on bleed, I play with a Mace actually (mostly coz it took me 50 runs on WGT to get my Essence Thief weapon and I don't want to run it ever again) but an Axe or Sword wouldn't surprise me for no-cp.

And even if you copy my build or Sniker builds, try your own things too, me, him and you don't have the same exact playstyle, you're not gonna put yourself in such dangerous situations than me when you begin and will feel like you don't need that much sustain but you'll need to keep adjusting your stats (with jewel enchants and mundus stone) to get just the right amount while your playstyle evolve.

My skills are actually the same as Sniker skills (except for incap), but before I used to run with Forward Momentum to get a slot and place meditate to get 0 issue with my sustain in no-cp (and I was playing a lingering pots with health and Stam, since I needed less mag recov due to meditate), and take Troll King to compensate the lack of healing (I was still squichier due to the lack of mitigation from Shuffle / BS so more open to burst)
Also I'm a Khajiit, so I have to build less in mag recovery and more in stam recovery, depending on your race you should adjust your stats too.

And maybe you're not rich too, builds without Bonepirate are more optimal with golden food but it's a bit expensive, and I'm personnally poor so I like it a lot.

Zabagad wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

[...]

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak.
[...]

Wow - what a great post and what a lot of information!

I guess the opener should print this out, because what he might not know - Lybal is maybe the best NB on PC EU non-CP (I cannot say that for sure, because im not good enough to judge), but for sure the best one I met so far in all my (little) PvP experiences.

My first day in a cyro campaign (after a PVE event which brought me there and made me interested in PvP) was starting with a death recap from Lybal. That day and the next few days I collected maybe 30-50 of recaps with Lybal inside

Most impressive were the situation where we (AD) were entering a keep. After it was our keep there were 20-40 AD people running from left to right, back and force like chickens, for maybe 10-15min. Sometimes I saw that there was an enemy - but only for a very short moment. At the end of that I saw a dead Lybal on the ground - (I saw this happen a few more times and sometimes I guess he survived even that ) and I saw how this guy looked and which level he had and so on. I didnt know why some of the people tried to sneak there - because he was dead already. I understood that later

So its nice to read his input - specially for me, since I was building my two PvP chars with Lybal in mind and tried to give them as much counter to NB and cloak then possible. Good to see that both char which I use, are ready to slot (or have that skills always in the bar) all you mentioned for them.

To come back to the real topic - I guess one thing was missing and maybe it is somthing from the "other things" part?
I have on my Curse-Bar in addition a poison which should keep preventing a NB to go in stealth - so I have a double chance in the LA-Curse weave. I guess u dont slot the purge only for these 4-5sec? Maybe there is another reason why u dont mention it?

I'm pretty sure I'm not in your database @Lybal (even if I was using detection pots and streak when we chased him) - but maybe if u play more often in the future again, we will meet us and I try to get u down at least one time (For sure never 1vs1 and with many deaths before on my side.)
And I guess u already could feel it - my greatest respect for ur skills!

Thx a lot for all these compliments

I won't talk much about the first part coz I don't really like to compliment myself in any way, tbh these message are pretty embarrassing

And it's true, I forgot the fact that you can take poisons to counter cloak, people use it soooo rarely I didn't think about it
I react to it the same way as Magelight or Detect pots since it's the same mechanic (one poison works like magelight and an other like detect pot), the one that works like detect pots puts an effect on you with an icon that looks like an eye with a purple background.
There's some subtile difference, like the fact that the poison which act as a detect pot don't have range restrictions and you can easily know when someone use it by looking at your debuffs, but that's basically the same thing.

But sry to disappoint you, you won't be able to use it on me, atleast next month, coz I comeback AD side for the next campaign

In the list of "other", there's also a set that puts on you a dot that reveals you each tic, idk if that's a bug or not (it shows a little animation on each tick so maybe there's an AOE effect attach to the dot that reveals me) or what is the set, I just learned the icon (weird staff (dunno what it is) on a black background) to see when I got it on me and be able to react properly.

EDIT : Oh, and ofc I don't use purge to counter poisons or anything, purge is such a bad skill on stamnb, it cost way too much magicka and take a slot, that's very huge for what it does, a skill and all my magicka dedicated to cloak and shade will give me way much more survivability than a purge.

I havet got time to read your post thouroughly but im gonna do it and im gonna treat your advice religiously as you obviously are the kind of nb i want to become. MUCH APPRICIATED ❤️

I hope you'll enjoy your learning and pvp experience as much as I do.

If you're on PC EU and wants to add me for more information ig about stamnb, don't hesitate, I can't play these days but will be way much more active in 10 days+, and I don't mind helping people when it comes to stamnb in pvp.

idk · September 2019

Nyladreas wrote: »

idk wrote: »

There are hard and soft counters in the game.

A hard counter like stealth detect potions or mage light will pull you out of stealth and keep you out for a duration regardless of what you do. Mage light debuff lasts 3 seconds.

An example of a soft counter is the Sorcs hurricane which is a PBAoE DoT. As long as you remain within it's damage radius it will pull you out of stealth. Once you are out you can cloak all you want.

DoT on you should not pull you out of stealth since their damage is negated dor the duration of cloak.

I will say most gankers are easy targets for those who hunt cloaking NBs as they are often one trick ponies. Easy to pull out of cloak and keep out of cloak. They tend to go for that easy build and not much more. I enjoy hunting them.

And then there are nightblades like me utilizing completely different and unconventional methods and builds that enjoy hunting those who think they can easily hunt us 😁

I have yet to encounter a ganker I could not easily handle. They tend to be low skill players which is why they gank soft targets.

Zabagad · September 2019

Lybal wrote: »

[...]
(I'm planning to try Undo as defensive ult this patch coz of the cast time that is horrible to react correctly, but I'm too lazy to upgrade psijic skill line rank 10 on my EP char and I got very annoyed last time I tried it due to the ult not working, killing me more than saving me.)

[...]

I won't talk much about the first part coz I don't really like to compliment myself in any way, tbh these message are pretty embarrassing

And it's true, I forgot the fact that you can take poisons to counter cloak, people use it soooo rarely I didn't think about it
I react to it the same way as Magelight or Detect pots since it's the same mechanic (one poison works like magelight and an other like detect pot), the one that works like detect pots puts an effect on you with an icon that looks like an eye with a purple background.
There's some subtile difference, like the fact that the poison which act as a detect pot don't have range restrictions and you can easily know when someone use it by looking at your debuffs, but that's basically the same thing.

But sry to disappoint you, you won't be able to use it on me, atleast next month, coz I comeback AD side for the next campaign

[...]

Sorry if I'm ashamed you - that was not my intention but understandable. I hope it was only that, because the translation of "embarrassing" into my language has a large range - from ashamed till annyoed (pissed off)...
And Mayrael showed that you have a great reputation, too. But better to stop here...

Two open points for me (beside I'm a bit surprised by your sets, but I'm looking from the other side of the medal on this thread, and so its not so importend for me) - first you wrote:

"Lybal wrote:

(and I was playing a lingering pots with health and Stam, since I needed less mag recov due to meditate)

I missed something here - either I missed that Pots exists with Lingering health and Stam and Health, or I missed where Health and Stam are refering to. Maybe clothes Enchantment?

Second - ty for your input to the poison(s) - I use them now for some month, but didnt know there were 2 versions

I use(d) always only one of them and didn't realized that there is another possible poison. But I guess the "old one" was the better one for me anyway, but in the future I will now always think about the second "new" poison too.

Finaly you dont disappoint me - nice to hear that you will play (more?) in the future - even if I didn't play much in the last 4 month, I realized that you were not so much in the highscore as before.

And if I see you online (but maybe I will switch to CP campaingn) I will whisper to you to share my "Undo-experience" - but that's OT here and maybe by then you know already more about undo then I do.

Elephant42 · September 2019

LMFAO

Like so many things in this game the actuality is far removed from the theory.

I run Magelight on my backbar and I _routinely_ have nightblades get pulled out of stealth with it and then stealth again in less than a second, sometimes it's so quick that I can't be sure I saw them...

Nordic__Knights · September 2019

leepalmer95 wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Regarding my fresh stam blade char ( Marius Gankus ) Sometimes i have trouble with activating cloak or staying in cloak. If i get a DOT on me, will that prevent me from cloaking? If im in a sorcs hurricane/storm fiels - will that prevent me from cloaking or get me out of cloak?

Burst AoEs will pull you from Cloak but not prevent you from re-entering (i.e. Sap Essence).

AoE DoTs will pull you from Cloak and also prevent you from re-entering so long as you are in the radius of one (i.e. Hurricane).

Single target DoTs will be suppressed while in Cloak and will not pull you nor prevent you from using Cloak.

Fall damage will pull you from Cloak but not prevent you from re-entering.

Dodge roll will pull you from Cloak but not prevent you from re-entering.

Mist Form will pull you from Cloak but if you cast Cloak while this skill is effective it will queue up and activate afterwards.

Radiant Magelight/Inner Light will pull you from Cloak if you are in the radius of it's effects, and prevent you from re-entering into Cloak so long as it is active.
*Fighter's Guild has a similar skill (Expert/Evil Hunter)

Soul Assault will prevent you from re-entering into Cloak for a few seconds unless you lose line of sight from the user.

Ballista will prevent you from re-entering Cloak so long as it is active unless you lose line of sight from the user.

Detect potions will not pull you out of nor prevent you from Cloaking but you will be exposed to solely the user of that potion.
*Piercing Mark has the same effect but for a shorter duration

Activating a heal or buff that applies to more than yourself will pull you from Cloak (i.e. Echoing Vigor).

More than you asked for but doesn't hurt to have it. If someone sees something incorrect, please advise and I'll edit.

Ballista used to just go through line of sight, not sure if it still does.

Unfortunately I could say I've had it happen and not happy in bgs yesterday so its 50/50 it seems on if it will go through or not

Hate being stopped from killing due to lil bushes

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · September 2019

magelight will bring them out but some nb's re-cloack in less of a second

Lybal · September 2019

Zabagad wrote: »

Lybal wrote: »

[...]
(I'm planning to try Undo as defensive ult this patch coz of the cast time that is horrible to react correctly, but I'm too lazy to upgrade psijic skill line rank 10 on my EP char and I got very annoyed last time I tried it due to the ult not working, killing me more than saving me.)

[...]

I won't talk much about the first part coz I don't really like to compliment myself in any way, tbh these message are pretty embarrassing

And it's true, I forgot the fact that you can take poisons to counter cloak, people use it soooo rarely I didn't think about it
I react to it the same way as Magelight or Detect pots since it's the same mechanic (one poison works like magelight and an other like detect pot), the one that works like detect pots puts an effect on you with an icon that looks like an eye with a purple background.
There's some subtile difference, like the fact that the poison which act as a detect pot don't have range restrictions and you can easily know when someone use it by looking at your debuffs, but that's basically the same thing.

But sry to disappoint you, you won't be able to use it on me, atleast next month, coz I comeback AD side for the next campaign

[...]

Sorry if I'm ashamed you - that was not my intention but understandable. I hope it was only that, because the translation of "embarrassing" into my language has a large range - from ashamed till annyoed (pissed off)...
And Mayrael showed that you have a great reputation, too. But better to stop here...

Two open points for me (beside I'm a bit surprised by your sets, but I'm looking from the other side of the medal on this thread, and so its not so importend for me) - first you wrote:

"Lybal wrote:

(and I was playing a lingering pots with health and Stam, since I needed less mag recov due to meditate)

I missed something here - either I missed that Pots exists with Lingering health and Stam and Health, or I missed where Health and Stam are refering to. Maybe clothes Enchantment?

Second - ty for your input to the poison(s) - I use them now for some month, but didnt know there were 2 versions I use(d) always only one of them and didn't realized that there is another possible poison. But I guess the "old one" was the better one for me anyway, but in the future I will now always think about the second "new" poison too.

Finaly you dont disappoint me - nice to hear that you will play (more?) in the future - even if I didn't play much in the last 4 month, I realized that you were not so much in the highscore as before.

And if I see you online (but maybe I will switch to CP campaingn) I will whisper to you to share my "Undo-experience" - but that's OT here and maybe by then you know already more about undo then I do.

There's pots with lingering health, stam and health since Elsweyr, it requires Dragon Blood so it's a bit expensive.

Also to criticize your use of poisons, the problem with them is that it makes your build too specific and not polyvalent, it's only useful against nb. I would suggest to get an add-on to swap your gear and make 2 setup with everything the same except poison; and swap to the one who act as a detect pot / reveal when you know you're gonna fight a nb, so you'll get an extra enchant or poison for all other situations.
Ik it can be a bit annoying to think about swap your gear every time between 2 fights if needed, but it's the best if you want to be optimal and use these poisons.

I took a break during about a month and now I'm off for 2 weeks due to IRL stuff, I played a lot this campaign (got emp on my EP char, it should still be on top of the ladder), and will surely be a lot more present after my break for months.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

magelight will bring them out but some nb's re-cloack in less of a second

Is that really the case, or just a bias feeling without anything else ?
I agree that 3 sec can feel very short sometimes, and it's easy for any decent nb to temporize for such a short duration, but it clearly does not feel like 1 to me.

Anyway, magelight isn't a tool strong enough alone, except if you spam it but in any fair situations that will lead to your deaths due to the fact that it does nothing else.
His power comes when in a group, since it reveals the nb to everyone and not only you, allowing other to follow.
If you reveal a nb with magelight, then try to keep it out of cloak with other tools, that's how to use the skill properly imo, if you got nothing but magelight, then it just means your build is wrong, every class got strong tools that are used in any polyvalent build to keep a nb out of cloak, except maybe nb itself.

Zabagad · September 2019

Lybal wrote: »

There's pots with lingering health, stam and health since Elsweyr, it requires Dragon Blood so it's a bit expensive.

Also to criticize your use of poisons, the problem with them is that it makes your build too specific and not polyvalent, it's only useful against nb. I would suggest to get an add-on to swap your gear and make 2 setup with everything the same except poison; and swap to the one who act as a detect pot / reveal when you know you're gonna fight a nb, so you'll get an extra enchant or poison for all other situations.
Ik it can be a bit annoying to think about swap your gear every time between 2 fights if needed, but it's the best if you want to be optimal and use these poisons.

TY - I didn't realized that combination

Thank god I play almost only mag chars

Ty for your advice about the poison usage. I use the poison with 2 other dots (so it's not worseless against all other), but I use dressing room too. So I would do what you recommend, but because of the "stuck in combat issue" I cannot count on switching setups reliable - so as my standard this poison is sloted.

fred4 · September 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

Also, if you have a DOT on someone else, every time it ticks it will pull you of stealth.

Nightblade main here. No. That was a bug and fixed a good few patches ago.

EDIT: I am referring to cloak. Have now read this thread fully and take it that crouch is different.

fred4 · September 2019

Thunderclap wrote: »

And if you have activate the combat clound you can see the miss message when a nb cloak or stealth. Running in this direction and you will find the nb.

That is also supposed to be fixed, although I'm not sure. I think I've still seen messages, but it wasn't "Miss", so the NB may have simply stopped cloaking. It was in the distance.

fred4 · September 2019

idk wrote: »

A hard counter like stealth detect potions or mage light will pull you out of stealth and keep you out for a duration regardless of what you do. Mage light debuff lasts 3 seconds.

This is inaccurate. Magelight works that way, but detect potions do not technically pull you out of cloak, they just mean that one enemy player, the one that used the potion, can see you within a certain range, even while you cloak. They do not prevent you from cloaking. You are still invisible to other players while the detect user is not attacking you and actively pulling you out of cloak. You can also disappear from view at any moment by getting far enough away.

fred4 · September 2019

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Also, if you have a DOT on someone else, every time it ticks it will pull you of stealth.

Things make sense now. Golden input

Nope. Incorrect input.

EDIT: At least as it relates to a cloaking, not merely couching, NB.

fred4 · September 2019

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Rowjoh wrote: »

Cloak is such a brilliant skill but is difficult to master properly and takes a lot of time to get to down. It's critical the build is dead right then decision making, timing and speed are key and needs to be practiced until second nature..

I agree with @idk that the majority of nightblades are not great at surviving once their cloak is broken, however there are a handful of extremely skilled players who are almost impossible to catch no matter what.

The nightblade class is definitely not a 'one trick pony' in the right hands. I know a small handful of players that give zergs the run around and can pick them off one by one, right left and centre. No other class can do that as solo.

I plan to become such a nightblade, and i know it will take a lot of time and practise to get there. Tank god for the forums to help me out when i need it! I am interested in a gank build and if you know about a build that works and is concidered good, i would appriciate it if you shared

While that used to be true when you watch historical videos from the likes of Sypher, I'm not sure how true it still is today. Stamina nightblades have lost a lot of their edge, since spring. Short time to kill is extremely important for a nightblade. Many stamblades I encounter feel blunted to me, although those are perhaps not the best players, but the ones who heavily relied on the extreme strength of their ganking burst before.

No other class can do that solo? There are certainly YouTube 1vX clips that prove that wrong. Picking people off, yes, nightblade is still good at that, but wiping a whole (inexperienced) zerg without them rezzing each other, I think other classes are actually better at that. Since I started recording my gameplay, I have noticed a tendency of me killing the same players over and over, because I go for ones that are at the edge of the zerg or that are standing still a little too long. That invariably ends up being the same noobs that were just rezzed by their mates or ones with a slow mount.

fred4 · September 2019

Deathlord92 wrote: »

To use cloak effectively don’t ever just use cloak and expect to get away because you won’t. Dodge roll first then cloak or line of sight or and shadow image first then cloak if you have shadow image on your bar.

I would go further than this. I think you need at least one of the following in addition to dodge rolls and Cloak:

(A) Shadow Image
(B) Mist Form
(C) Root and Snare removal (Forward Momentum or Race Against Time)

If you're only using (C) then I also recommend being speedy to whatever degree you deem balanced. This includes things like:

(D) Being a Bosmer and dodge rolling
(E) Being an Orc and sprinting, perhaps
(F) Steed mundus
(G) Swift jewelry
(H) Using Concealed Weapon passively, even as a stamblade. Some players make this sacrifice. Depends on build.
(I) A set like Gryphon's Ferocity that fits with some NB builds
(J) Dodge rolling on the bow bar

To clarify, I play a very squishy melee magblade and favor speed myself. It is, however, also possible to build for tankiness. The tankier you are, the less dependent you are on mobility.

HowlKimchi · September 2019

nihirisutou wrote: »

Taking damage (including DOT, AoE, Hurricane) will break cloak.

+ Magelight.

Single target dots dont deal damage to you while you are cloaked. Basically what reveals cloak is aoe damage. Anything AOE.

Other skills that reveal cloak that aren't aoe damage are: Magelight, Haunting Curse when it explodes, and Purifying light when it explodes.

Detect Pots on the other hand doesn't break cloak, it simply reveals cloaked target to the user.

fred4 · September 2019

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

In short:
- Any AOE dmg.
- Detect potions.
- Magelight / Expert Hunter and its morphs.
- Delayed single target non-dot dmg - Haunting Curse.
- Puncturing Strikes / jabs if you will be near them.

Note: sets that increse stealth detection range as far as I know, work only against crouch - stealth and not against cloak / invisibility.

Don't forget NB's own skill - Piercing Mark.

If some NB withing a Zerg starts hard spamming Piercing Mark on you, prepare for graveyard.

That is true from experience, but I believe technically only they can see you. Mark has such a short duration now. If they are literally spamming it, as some people do, they won't really harm you. I think what probably happens is that they light attack weave and, thereby, *** you out of cloak all the time for others to see. They're also pointing in your direction.

In general, if I have to cloak through a zerg, I pump cloak every second. You can run through Hurricanes and other AOE. Depending on the timing of the AOE ticks and your cloak spam you sometimes get through without being uncloaked or only being visible for such a short time, people don't notice. You pretty much have to be a perma-cloak-spec magblade for this, though, e.g. you need very good mag sustain.

fred4 · September 2019

Rowjoh wrote: »

It is highly satisfying to be able to weave in and out of big fights and zergs racking up the kills without dying. And some of the greatest heart-stopping moments come when getting caught but escaping under intense pressure against all the odds

Yes! I am by no means great at magblade yet, but this is actually what I'm most proud of with my current melee magblade build, more so than the kills. Shameless plug for my one and only video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dxsUVeGGLc

fred4 · September 2019

llElLoboll wrote: »

Something that will help cloak be more effective is changing direction. Most blades cloak and keep going the same direction. If you do a 90 degree turn or turn around and run through the people chasing you then you can really confuse the people chasing you.

Agreed 100%. In fact, I find this extremely important. There is an example towards the end of my video

.

I like having some open space to change direction in. Narrow passages (IC) and tight spaces (resource towers) are not great for NBs working purely with cloak (and speed), such as me. This is where Shadow Image comes into it's own.

It can also help to head for obstacles, e.g. line-of-sight (LoS), although cloaking NBs are arguably less dependent on this than other classes. It's the reason I headed for that tree, though, when focused earlier in the video. I think it broke damage just long enough to make my subsequent cloak spam stick.

fred4 · September 2019

Lybal wrote: »

My tricks to face all different counters that cloak got :

- Against DK, never cloak too close to them, they got a lot of tools to reveal you when you're close to them but none when you're a bit far, just roll with your bow if you got one (and use snare immune if needed) and sprint for 0,5 / 1 sec before to cloak.
- Always get your debuffs somewhere on your screen to see when is gonna pop delay abilities aka Purifying Light / Curse and act in consequence.
- Against Templars, again, never cloak in front of them, if you got issue when one or more templars in on you, use a snare immune (Obligatory with jabs and purif AOE that slows you down) before to get a bit of distance.
- Magsorcs got Streak and Curse usually to reveal you, pets also are annoying to fight and can hit you through cloak (especially that horrible Atronach), there isn't a lot of counterplay to that except get away from Atro and prepare for the moment curse hit.
- Stamsorc can very easily reveal you when you're close to him with Hurricane, but don't have any tool to reveal you from range, just get away from him before to cloak, which can sometimes be very difficult given their mobility, shade is the best help there.
- Warden got their shalks, don't cloak if you saw them cast it (and block too btw), permafrost is also a pain in the ass (shade is the best way to deal with it, but if you can't use it for some reason, snare immune + roll / sprint and block 2 or 3 second (not sure what is it exactly, I got the timing but can't tell what it is in sec) after it started to avoid the stun is the best way to deal with it, or if you can allow yourself to do so, just tank it and play defensive.
- Can't tell much about Necro, Ik their skeleton can hit you through cloak so don't be surprise, but tbh I didn't play as much as usual since his release and I rarely see any of them, and even more rarely threatening ones.
- Stamblade and Magblade usually got nothing but Mark or Fear, which is easy to avoid (just play defensive during Mark Timer and hide behind a obstacle if he tries to keep it up, fear can reveal you if you cloak in front of them but they can't use it after that coz of your immunity.
- For Detect pots, well it's easy to guess most of the time, but it becomes very difficult if there's a lot of people on you, try to look who's the one using it, learn the range and guess the duration of the pot and get away from him before to cloak, also, if you're 1vX and wants to take them down, try to kill him first if possible, people with detect usually are the most painful one in these situations given the difficulty to react properly (sometimes it's very difficult to guess if that's some random AOE or someone with pots that revealed you when there's a lot of people on ya, and it can leads to bad decision, mostly mortal)
- Same for Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for Detect pots, learn the range, spot the one using it, get away from him to use cloak and try to focus him if possible, it's way easier to deal with Magelight and Camouflaged Hunter than for detect pots coz you can easily guess who use it just by looking at them.

Also, always run to your right or left after your cloak, people for some reason usually always try to hit in the same direction : the one you're gone (maybe because most blades keep going in the same direction), this reflex is especially effective against Warden Shalk and Sorc Streak.

And most important of all, adapt to the situation, what I told apply to most players but they don't play the same way and with the same build, some magplars are healbot without jabs and aren't a threat at all (well they are annoying to kill people, but don't give much when it comes to offensive), some will be magsorc spamming streak with detect pots and you won't be able to use cloak at all except with a good shade, some got gapcloser and will spam it to stay close to you and be sure to be able to reveal you, while others don't even know how to play against and basically are harmless when you use it.
Look for people in these fights and try to get a clear vision of your ennemies : Who is the most problematic ? What's their build ? How do they play ? Answers to these question will help you to know how to use cloak properly against them.
Personnally, I play only in pvp and knows most names on no-cp campaign EU, it helps a lot to answer to these questions and get a clear general view of the fight.

There's also some other things (mostly weird interactions which almost never happen or maybe bug dunno) that people didn't mention and can pull you out of cloak, first thing that comes in my mind is the Heavy Attack from Thunder Staff, for some reason it breaks cloak sometimes, maybe that's the passiv that deals AOE near the one focus that don't work correctly or the projectile at the end maybe break it for some reason.
(Edit : nvm, someone mentionned that one already)

I hope it helped you, you won't master any of this before months, it requires a lot of thinking very fast and you have to think of it actively first, most of this became a reflex to me and I do it naturally, I can focus on more other things at the same time, but keep trying, even the best Stamblade out there was a newbie for a moment, I was myself maybe one of the worst that you could see in pvp when I started (worse than the average AD nb to tell ya !).

Also, don't go for ganker build if your goal is to become one of these unkillable nightblades weaving on a zerg, a ganker build is totally different and don't have much ressources to deal with counters, they sacrifice a lot of survivability to maximise their damage and just can't react as properly as others no matter how good they are.

Great writeup!

Rukia541 · September 2019

Ackwalan wrote: »

Also, if you have a DOT on someone else, every time it ticks it will pull you of stealth.

I didn't know this 1 and everything makes so much more sense now.

fred4 · September 2019

Elephant42 wrote: »

LMFAO

Like so many things in this game the actuality is far removed from the theory.

I run Magelight on my backbar and I _routinely_ have nightblades get pulled out of stealth with it and then stealth again in less than a second, sometimes it's so quick that I can't be sure I saw them...

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

magelight will bring them out but some nb's re-cloack in less of a second

Magelight locks NBs out of cloak for a few seconds. If they disappear, they probably used the shade. It can be difficult to tell the difference. Turn around 180 degrees and you may see them.

Gracous · September 2019

If you are looking for a build, try this one. I wasn't too sure about it at first but now i love playing this build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_dUKoqYUM

Happy hunting!

fred4 · September 2019

Rukia541 wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Also, if you have a DOT on someone else, every time it ticks it will pull you of stealth.

I didn't know this 1 and everything makes so much more sense now.

Again: No. That was a bug, particularly annoying when you used Crippling Grasp. It's been fixed for quite a while, at least as long as you keep cloaking and are not merely in crouch.

I guess I am the odd one out, here, for playing a magblade. If you are a stamblade, this "feature" will presumably hit you as soon as you transition from cloak to crouch. A magblade with high sustain just keeps cloaking.

fred4 · September 2019

Lybal wrote: »

I play with a Mace actually (mostly coz it took me 50 runs on WGT to get my Essence Thief weapon and I don't want to run it ever again)

I had deconstructed my Essence Thief, before it was changed

. Anyhow, if you are rich - I read you're not, but maybe some people, here, are - you can simply buy Key Fragments. Take 150 of them to the IC dungeon of your choice and get random drops of two items. Rooms are off to the side, before you engage enemies.

idk · September 2019

fred4 wrote: »

idk wrote: »

A hard counter like stealth detect potions or mage light will pull you out of stealth and keep you out for a duration regardless of what you do. Mage light debuff lasts 3 seconds.

This is inaccurate. Magelight works that way, but detect potions do not technically pull you out of cloak, they just mean that one enemy player, the one that used the potion, can see you within a certain range, even while you cloak. They do not prevent you from cloaking. You are still invisible to other players while the detect user is not attacking you and actively pulling you out of cloak. You can also disappear from view at any moment by getting far enough away.

I specifically stated mage light puts that debuff on. I just did not detail how the potions work. But as you stated, the potions have an extended effect as well.