Nemesis7884 wrote: »honestly the only thing i think most tanks could benefit from over DK is a pull option and a aoe immobilize
but you can use turn evil and silver lash...
templar offers
min prot and stun with turn evil
aoe heal and purge with ext ritual
a shield
resource recovery with shards
damage mitigation and recovery with rune
self heal with jabs
cheap oh *** ultimate heal
minor debuff that also inc. group damage output...
the only thing that really annoyed me is the change to empowering because it worked really well with automated defense set...
and more classes should get some sort of pull option that doesnt cost and arm and a leg
OG_Kaveman wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »Engulfing flames is 10%.
balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.
Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.
While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »Engulfing flames is 10%.
balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.
Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.
While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).
Actually I was just looking at Fextralife. The number is outdated there. Gonna change that now.
Never use FetLife for eso stuff. Always use https://www.uesp.net, while it is not always up to date, as it is still a player based wiki, it is far, far, farrrrr more updated then fetlife.
OG_Kaveman wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »Engulfing flames is 10%.
balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.
Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.
While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »Engulfing flames is 10%.
balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.
Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.
While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).
Actually I was just looking at Fextralife. The number is outdated there. Gonna change that now.
Never use FetLife for eso stuff. Always use https://www.uesp.net, while it is not always up to date, as it is still a player based wiki, it is far, far, farrrrr more updated then fetlife.
You are right, I should know better ^^
They still think Argonians have poison resistance.
OG_Kaveman wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »Engulfing flames is 10%.
balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.
Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.
While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »Engulfing flames is 10%.
balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.
Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.
While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).
Actually I was just looking at Fextralife. The number is outdated there. Gonna change that now.
Never use FetLife for eso stuff. Always use https://www.uesp.net, while it is not always up to date, as it is still a player based wiki, it is far, far, farrrrr more updated then fetlife.
You are right, I should know better ^^
They still think Argonians have poison resistance.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Argonian what are you talking about?
OG_Kaveman wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »Engulfing flames is 10%.
balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.
Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.
While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »OG_Kaveman wrote: »Engulfing flames is 10%.
balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.
Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.
While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).
Actually I was just looking at Fextralife. The number is outdated there. Gonna change that now.
Never use FetLife for eso stuff. Always use https://www.uesp.net, while it is not always up to date, as it is still a player based wiki, it is far, far, farrrrr more updated then fetlife.
You are right, I should know better ^^
They still think Argonians have poison resistance.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Argonian what are you talking about?
Fextralife I mean. If this was a joke, then sorry for ruining it. But back to Templar tanks now please!
Templar tank is hard to play. Very bad sustain, super bad self heal, stam chain, no roots, no "screw mechanics!" aka Magma Shell.
Ask any hardcore trial group and they'll tell you to go DK tank. Templar tanks are second class citizens, only allowed to offtank if at all. Why is that?
I was told it comes down to the DK being able to:
- supply the entire group with Major and Minor Brutality
- as well as the increase of the entire group's fire damage by 10%
- A magicka based pull that doesn't compromise their ability to keep block up
- potent missing health based heal
p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »Ask any hardcore trial group and they'll tell you to go DK tank. Templar tanks are second class citizens, only allowed to offtank if at all. Why is that?
I was told it comes down to the DK being able to:
- supply the entire group with Major and Minor Brutality
- as well as the increase of the entire group's fire damage by 10%
- A magicka based pull that doesn't compromise their ability to keep block up
- potent missing health based heal
The people gave you the reasons are thinking one dimensional for their own specific group which if one deviates it goes pear shape even the easiest of the vet trials.
To respond to the points also.
a) Yes, but so DK DDs also have those buffs.
b) How?
c) A DK using grip more than once is a dead DK tank as Magicka is the most easily exhausted and needed resource for a DK tank. A good DD worth his salt, knows that and prefers Leash these days, on top of constantly spamming Balance to gain Magicka for all the rest of the things need to cast. (group shields etc).
d) Which is OK but Templars have more alternatives and aren't Magicka starved, allowing the spamming of HoD or BOL in emergencies.
I take out more my Templar tank then all my other 4 tanks combined. Over the Sorcerer because I love more that certain (Templar) toon, but over NB & DK & Warden easily because is the better class and can rely on him more.
It has everything needed and more over the DK tank. Same, if not better, protection & resistances, has no issue with resource management as Magicka (is only used for healing, etx ritual, focus & shield) and Stamina comes in abundance, especially for Khajiit. Who has one of the best Stamina sustains to chain pull with Leash and Taunt (pierce armor) a whole room with Focus & Repentance down.
And when sh** hits the fan, pulls Remembrance and saves the day, otherwise the spamming ultimate is Warhorn.
DK on the other hand has to spam it's own ultimate as soon at it charges to gain resources, and Horn is a total afterthought where more likely or not will not manage to use even once in a vet trials or vet DLC dungeon.
Closing, if you decide to take a DK tank into a normal random dungeon, where the DDs cannot do 10K between them (happens in PUGs) you have to quit if you do not want spending the whole day there.
Templar on the other hand has the stamina skills to do 11K-12K (single target) on it's own by switching 2 skills and still use dual Shield & Sword and tanking gear. While can do the job of the healer also when tanking even in vet Dragonstar let alone normal or non DLC vet dungeons.
There is a misconception DK tank is better than Templar or Sorcerer tanks
For normal players, templar tanking has never been in a better spot. It works perfectly well for just about everything and I'm very happy with it. I'm happier with the state of templar tanking than I've ever been, honestly. So happy I actually went and tried a vet DLC dungeon for the first time. It wasn't quite a no-death run (I wasn't expecting that with randoms) but we did beat it under the timer.
Sounds like the main issue here is community perception rather than class balance. Tankplar could get a whole slew of buffs but unless the community changes its mind then you’ll still get surprised reactions and possible kicks for running tankplar.
Along with most tank builds, I think templars are in a pretty good spot at the moment. The massive shield they have seems especially useful in the defile-heavy pve content as of late. I do still wish they’d have a health-based heal too, but that’s the only piece of the equation that really feels missing to me. Imo things like a magicka pull or root would be nice, but aren’t necessary for tankplar a to perform well.
a) Yes, a group can have a DD run that too, but usually groups prefer to have DDs deal damage rather than buffing the group as that results in higher damage. Otherwise you would see NB DDs use lotus fan to apply minor vulnerability. Although it's not required for the tank to provide major brutality to the group, it is an option they have which no other class apart from maybe Warden's Frost Cloak can compare to.
b) Fire Breath increases all fire damage taken from all sources by 10%. That's a lot.
c) A (very) good DD deals 112k damage on a trial dummy and doesn't care about the tank's magicka problems. I don't know a whole lot about high end dps (only able to pull 63k dps myself), but I have never seen anyone apart from me and other tanks use any sort of pull in a trial.
p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »a) Yes, a group can have a DD run that too, but usually groups prefer to have DDs deal damage rather than buffing the group as that results in higher damage. Otherwise you would see NB DDs use lotus fan to apply minor vulnerability. Although it's not required for the tank to provide major brutality to the group, it is an option they have which no other class apart from maybe Warden's Frost Cloak can compare to.
b) Fire Breath increases all fire damage taken from all sources by 10%. That's a lot.
c) A (very) good DD deals 112k damage on a trial dummy and doesn't care about the tank's magicka problems. I don't know a whole lot about high end dps (only able to pull 63k dps myself), but I have never seen anyone apart from me and other tanks use any sort of pull in a trial.
I will stop you there. You need to go through and do the maths of how many skill slots are available and how many in your infinite wisdom DK can actually slot. Because you say DK is all good because XYZ skill but you need to fit in 10 places
Talons, Grip, Engulfing Flames, Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash, Defensive Stance, Dragon Blood, Igneous Weapons, Fragmented Shield, Elemental Blockade (if using Staff), Bone Shield, Inner Rage, Unstoppable, Sanguine Altar and Balance.
Make your mind first also consider that the significant majority of the above are Magicka based skills (used in Heavy Armour) which the DK tank cannot cast more than 3 (ish) before started spamming Balance (x2) to cast the next one up.
From your post alone you clearly haven't played DK tank, and your ignorance is showing.
Sounds like the main issue here is community perception rather than class balance. Tankplar could get a whole slew of buffs but unless the community changes its mind then you’ll still get surprised reactions and possible kicks for running tankplar.
Along with most tank builds, I think templars are in a pretty good spot at the moment. The massive shield they have seems especially useful in the defile-heavy pve content as of late. I do still wish they’d have a health-based heal too, but that’s the only piece of the equation that really feels missing to me. Imo things like a magicka pull or root would be nice, but aren’t necessary for tankplar a to perform well.
I agree that a magicka based pull doesn't need to be the solution to the problem. If Templars had more Warhorn uptime on default, they would already be in a much better spot for trial groups. There just needs to be something they can offer to the group. DKs definitely have lots of options in that department, but Templars not as much. That's the main difference. The community will change their opinion quickly as soon as the Templar offers something to the top 1% of the players and the mainstream chases the new meta.
Sounds like the main issue here is community perception rather than class balance. Tankplar could get a whole slew of buffs but unless the community changes its mind then you’ll still get surprised reactions and possible kicks for running tankplar.
Along with most tank builds, I think templars are in a pretty good spot at the moment. The massive shield they have seems especially useful in the defile-heavy pve content as of late. I do still wish they’d have a health-based heal too, but that’s the only piece of the equation that really feels missing to me. Imo things like a magicka pull or root would be nice, but aren’t necessary for tankplar a to perform well.
I agree that a magicka based pull doesn't need to be the solution to the problem. If Templars had more Warhorn uptime on default, they would already be in a much better spot for trial groups. There just needs to be something they can offer to the group. DKs definitely have lots of options in that department, but Templars not as much. That's the main difference. The community will change their opinion quickly as soon as the Templar offers something to the top 1% of the players and the mainstream chases the new meta.
But if what Templar offers can be covered by one player, and healplars are better than tankplars, then tankplars will likely still be seen as a poor choice by the community. And I don’t think that zos would try to dethrone healplars, but I guess it’s possible. I don’t really keep up with the healer meta news haha
Re: barspace, I don’t think I’ve ever used repentance on my tankplar, so there’s a spot for silver leash. I also tend to place immobilizations pretty low on the priority list because creatures affected by them generally aren’t ones worth worrying about anyway. Certainly they have their use in some fights, but turn undead or time stop would be another flex spot imo.
The problem isnt the class, its the players and ignorance of what a class can do. Templars do fine as tanks, in pretty much any content.
Don't forget warden tank this patch, buff a lot.
They got the best self healing skill.
p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »Templar has one of the best sustains for tanks
DK has one of the worse sustains.
Olupajmibanan wrote: »Try main-tanking Nahviintas on hard mode with a Templar tank. You'll quickly realize it's not a good idea.
Green Dragon Blood alone is what puts DK above other classes in terms of main-tanking. Warden's Polar Wind got buffed, Necro has his Scythe. This enables some possibilities for Warden and Necro as main tanks, but for the hardes content like the one mentioned above, you'll still prefer DK. Sun Shield simply doesn't cut it, not even saying that DK has access to Bone Shield. You may try stacking Sun Shield with Bone Surge for extensive moments, but as you said, bar slots are an expensive commodity.
gatekeeper13 wrote: »As someone who has a 810 lvl Templar tank, I can say that yes, Templar tanks are worse than DK tanks. That's a fact and nothing can change that. When I started the game, I didnt have a clue on races, classes and roles and ended up making an Orc Templar Tank. Was bored to make a new DK character from scratch so I stayed with that.
But is a Templar tank non-viable? Not at all. I only PUG dungeons and still managed to do veteran DLC dungeons like Depths of Malatar, CoS and Fang Lair easily with a random group. There are skills like Radiant Ward (Sun Shield) which together with Minor Protection passive makes you almost immune, Power of the Light (Backlash) which I spam and causes Minor Fracture/Breach + gives Minor Sorcery to group + 3 ultimate, Repentance which gives huge health and stamina resource back to you and group (health only), Solar Prison which applies Major Maim to all enemies in area, Remembrance which gives huge healing to all group + protecting you with Major Protection, Ritual of Retribution which slows down enemies and gives Purify synergy and Rune Focus, which will max your physical/spell armor resistance + boost stamina recovery.
Yes all these skills are pretty useful. But you cant rely on Templar skills alone. If your Templar stays with his skills, he cant crowd control anything nor sustain. RoR is not enough. So I have to use Caltrops and Ice Staff. These too makes mobs almost immobile. Templar cant pull, so I have to use Silver Leash. Templar also has very weak resource regeneration so I also have to use Deep Thoughts to regenerate fast health, magicka, stamina. And since I PUG only, there are times when the healer sucks and I have to rely heavily on Remembrance (has saved my group from wipes numerous times) and Barrier, since Templar has no group shields (you can use Brands of Imperium but its proc not very reliable).
Setup I use most of the time looks like that: (I focus more on group support than being selfish)
Head + Shoulders = Thurvokun
Body = Ebon Armor
Weapon + Jewelry = Torug's Pact
Skills
Front Bar = Radiant Ward, Caltrops, Puncture, Low Slash, Deep Thoughts, Warhorn.
Back Bar = Inner Rage, Silver Leash, Elemental Blockade (Ice Staff), Power of the Light, Repentance, Solar Prison
(back bar skills change depending on dungeon difficulty and group)
To sum up, the Templar tank lacks seriously in reliable resource regeneration and crowd control more than it lacks in group support (its healing abilities and amazing spear shards make up for that). Repentance may give huge health and stamina back but ONLY if there are dead bodies around and CC is almost non existent. So, would I advise someone to make a Templar Tank? No. Is playing a Templar Tank more difficult than DK tank? Yes. Is Templar Tank worse than DK tank? Yes. But if you already have a Templar Tank and dont want to delete it, be sure that with the right setup you can tank pretty much everything. (cant speak for Trials since I never do)
gatekeeper13 wrote: »As someone who has a 810 lvl Templar tank, I can say that yes, Templar tanks are worse than DK tanks. That's a fact and nothing can change that. When I started the game, I didnt have a clue on races, classes and roles and ended up making an Orc Templar Tank. Was bored to make a new DK character from scratch so I stayed with that.
But is a Templar tank non-viable? Not at all. I only PUG dungeons and still managed to do veteran DLC dungeons like Depths of Malatar, CoS and Fang Lair easily with a random group. There are skills like Radiant Ward (Sun Shield) which together with Minor Protection passive makes you almost immune, Power of the Light (Backlash) which I spam and causes Minor Fracture/Breach + gives Minor Sorcery to group + 3 ultimate, Repentance which gives huge health and stamina resource back to you and group (health only), Solar Prison which applies Major Maim to all enemies in area, Remembrance which gives huge healing to all group + protecting you with Major Protection, Ritual of Retribution which slows down enemies and gives Purify synergy and Rune Focus, which will max your physical/spell armor resistance + boost stamina recovery.
Yes all these skills are pretty useful. But you cant rely on Templar skills alone. If your Templar stays with his skills, he cant crowd control anything nor sustain. RoR is not enough. So I have to use Caltrops and Ice Staff. These too makes mobs almost immobile. Templar cant pull, so I have to use Silver Leash. Templar also has very weak resource regeneration so I also have to use Deep Thoughts to regenerate fast health, magicka, stamina. And since I PUG only, there are times when the healer sucks and I have to rely heavily on Remembrance (has saved my group from wipes numerous times) and Barrier, since Templar has no group shields (you can use Brands of Imperium but its proc not very reliable).
Setup I use most of the time looks like that: (I focus more on group support than being selfish)
Head + Shoulders = Thurvokun
Body = Ebon Armor
Weapon + Jewelry = Torug's Pact
Skills
Front Bar = Radiant Ward, Caltrops, Puncture, Low Slash, Deep Thoughts, Warhorn.
Back Bar = Inner Rage, Silver Leash, Elemental Blockade (Ice Staff), Power of the Light, Repentance, Solar Prison
(back bar skills change depending on dungeon difficulty and group)
To sum up, the Templar tank lacks seriously in reliable resource regeneration and crowd control more than it lacks in group support (its healing abilities and amazing spear shards make up for that). Repentance may give huge health and stamina back but ONLY if there are dead bodies around and CC is almost non existent. So, would I advise someone to make a Templar Tank? No. Is playing a Templar Tank more difficult than DK tank? Yes. Is Templar Tank worse than DK tank? Yes. But if you already have a Templar Tank and dont want to delete it, be sure that with the right setup you can tank pretty much everything. (cant speak for Trials since I never do)
Yeah, Templar tanks are great for dungeons. vCoS hm is nothing to a templar tank because you got your own cleanse and don't need to wait for your PUG healer to do it.
In trials it's a different story unfortunately. I also made my templar tank back when I had no real knowledge of the game and now that I am going into trials more seriously, I discover that Templar are lacking behind DK a lot, not because they can't be tanky but because they suck at supporting the group (in their role as tank mind you).
For normal players, templar tanking has never been in a better spot. It works perfectly well for just about everything and I'm very happy with it. I'm happier with the state of templar tanking than I've ever been, honestly. So happy I actually went and tried a vet DLC dungeon for the first time. It wasn't quite a no-death run (I wasn't expecting that with randoms) but we did beat it under the timer.
@Starlock I agree, Templar tanking is fun and works perfectly well for just about everything. It even works for trials, but you'll be getting strange looks. But you won't win a flower pot with it if you are trying to do a score run and if the trial group can choose between a Templar or a DK tank, they'll choose DK 99% of the time.
Enjoy your vet DLC dungeons though. Templar tanks are perfectly capable of doing any dungeon. Even getting tough achievements like vMHK hardmode is not out of the question for them. It might be easier for a DK to do, but a Templar can do it too. Trust me on that one.
For normal players, templar tanking has never been in a better spot. It works perfectly well for just about everything and I'm very happy with it. I'm happier with the state of templar tanking than I've ever been, honestly. So happy I actually went and tried a vet DLC dungeon for the first time. It wasn't quite a no-death run (I wasn't expecting that with randoms) but we did beat it under the timer.
@Starlock I agree, Templar tanking is fun and works perfectly well for just about everything. It even works for trials, but you'll be getting strange looks. But you won't win a flower pot with it if you are trying to do a score run and if the trial group can choose between a Templar or a DK tank, they'll choose DK 99% of the time.
Enjoy your vet DLC dungeons though. Templar tanks are perfectly capable of doing any dungeon. Even getting tough achievements like vMHK hardmode is not out of the question for them. It might be easier for a DK to do, but a Templar can do it too. Trust me on that one.
haha ,reminds me of WoW , if a team leader can choose between a DK tank or a 'other tank' for mythic + dungeons, they'll choose DK 99% of the time.
RavenSworn wrote: »I thought endgame tanking is... That, endgame tanking. Dk are the best, hands down. Healing? Templars. Sure you can slot in a nb heal or a nb tank or two, but ultimately, that's why they are at the pinnacle of tanking.
Its the same with why dks aren't the best for dps... Cos nb and sorcs are better at it. Or necros. Ultimately it would mean that you might need to change up your group setup?
You can always tank in any class for the rest of game, it's only in endgame tanking that you need to put aside self for others. That's what I think anyway.