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Templar tanks - What's missing?

Ratzkifal
Ratzkifal
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Ask any hardcore trial group and they'll tell you to go DK tank. Templar tanks are second class citizens, only allowed to offtank if at all. Why is that?

I was told it comes down to the DK being able to:
  • supply the entire group with Major and Minor Brutality
  • as well as the increase of the entire group's fire damage by 10%
  • A magicka based pull that doesn't compromise their ability to keep block up
  • potent missing health based heal
It makes sense. In ESO tanks are supports, only there to serve the needs of the group without questions asked. That's why they run Alkosh and Powerful Assault, even if the first three buffs they provide don't even interest the tank and makes them weaker.

Templars do provide minor sorcery to the group, however, they only do that upon casting a dawn's wrath ability. Due to templars being healers and sometimes DDs already, this buff is already being provided to the group thanks to Power of the Light. A templar tank is not needed for this.
They don't have a damage buff for the group, nor do they have an emergency "oh s*** button". Their most unique features are their reduced ult cost, but even here DKs can outshine them as they gain 0.5 ultimate per second when in combat. That's a 25% weaker free minor heroism but stackable with actual minor heroism. In other words as long as DKs don't have less than 5% ult generation more than Templars, they will out perform them. The Prism passive would make up for that difference if it weren't tied to casting Dawn's Wrath abilities and literally a worse version of half of Mountain's Blessing. As established before, it doesn't need a tank to cast power of the light and if I remember correctly, multiple instances don't stack but simply reset each other, meaning that it is in the groups interest for a stamplar DD to use it.

That brings us to the next problem. Bar space.
DK tanks don't use their Spiked Armor, they use Balance, granting them sustain as well as protection in the form of major ward and resolve in one ability. Templars also gain sustain and protection on the same ability - Restoring/Channeled Focus without the downside of having to sacrifice health and with the upside of getting 10k resistance when standing in their safe space. While the resistances are great, it's not like DKs are struggling to reach the cap without that increased potency of their ward and resolve buffs. What about the health cost of Balance though? 6k Health for 3k magicka? A Templar needs to stand on their small circle for about 12.5seconds to gain the same amount of magicka/stamina, that is if we ignore the skill's initial cost. It doesn't take a DK 12.5 seconds to restore that health, there are healers for that after all. Of course keeping PvP in mind, Restoring/Channeled Focus don't need a sustain buff, but this also means Templars need to pick up a second sustain skill, like Deep Thoughts and/or Repentance, especially considering that their Silver Leash competes with their stamina meant for blocking. To gain the same effectiveness as DKs, Templars need to sacrifice 2 to 3 skill slots where DKs only need one.

A tank needs:
  1. melee taunt
  2. ranged taunt
  3. pull
  4. self shield
  5. self heal
  6. resistance buff
  7. heroic slash for minor heroism
  8. reliable way to proc the Crusher enchantment at maximum potency
  9. "optional" group buffs
  10. "optional" sustain tool

That's 10 skills and a DK can easily fit all of them on their bar and still have one spot open for more group support skills, because their resistances ARE their sustain tool. Templars don't have that freedom. Templars have only one flex spot at all, which somehow needs to fit the last missing two needs from the list - while being a class skill mind you as DKs could otherwise pick this mythical cure-all skill too.


Now how do we fix this?

Who knows.
Maybe a Major Sorcery buff for the entire group on a self heal/shield, similar to Hircine's rage? Can't be making Magplars in PvP worse than Entropy already is. They do have good healing already after all.
Reworking a Dawn's Wrath ability/morph into a magicka based pull like chains?
Making Sun/Blazing Shield let enemies hit receive more damage from certain sources?
Changing one of the boring passives like Enduring Rays to grant minor heroism instead while buffing the base duration of the active skills it used to buff to be the same as now.
There are many possibilities...

UPDATE
So ZOS addressed the disparity between Templar tanks and DK tanks somewhat in their first PTS patch notes. DK tanks essentially lost their ability to increase fire damage for the group by 10% as it now scales by 1% every 333 spell damage. This essentially moves the skill to a DK dps.
However DKs now not only supply Major Brutality for their entire group but Major Sorcery as well. If DK healers get buffed enough to become relevant, this might become the healer's job.
Edited by Ratzkifal on September 16, 2019 9:43PM
This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Nemesis7884
    Nemesis7884
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    honestly the only thing i think most tanks could benefit from over DK is a pull option and a aoe immobilize

    but you can use turn evil and silver lash...

    templar offers
    min prot and stun with turn evil
    aoe heal and purge with ext ritual
    a shield
    resource recovery with shards
    damage mitigation and recovery with rune
    self heal with jabs
    cheap oh *** ultimate heal
    minor debuff that also inc. group damage output...


    the only thing that really annoyed me is the change to empowering because it worked really well with automated defense set...

    and more classes should get some sort of pull option that doesnt cost and arm and a leg
    Edited by Nemesis7884 on September 9, 2019 5:33AM
  • OG_Kaveman
    OG_Kaveman
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    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.
    Edited by OG_Kaveman on September 9, 2019 5:01AM
  • CompM4s
    CompM4s
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    I prefer necro tank. Fast ult regen, aoe fear, group minor protection and rez ult.
  • Hotdog_23
    Hotdog_23
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    A little bit of honesty here.

    For the most challenging content a DK tank will always be best and a templar will always be the best healer period. But really for the other 95-% of the game it doesn't really matter.
  • Olupajmibanan
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    Try main-tanking Nahviintas on hard mode with a Templar tank. You'll quickly realize it's not a good idea.

    Green Dragon Blood alone is what puts DK above other classes in terms of main-tanking. Warden's Polar Wind got buffed, Necro has his Scythe. This enables some possibilities for Warden and Necro as main tanks, but for the hardes content like the one mentioned above, you'll still prefer DK. Sun Shield simply doesn't cut it, not even saying that DK has access to Bone Shield. You may try stacking Sun Shield with Bone Surge for extensive moments, but as you said, bar slots are an expensive commodity.

  • Commancho
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    Competitive dd use pots for major sorcery /brutality. You can pull ranged targets with swarm mother at no cost. You have plenty of self/group heal capabilities. You have access to strong dots. Oh, you can get access to dk buffs if one of your dds plays dk.
  • Vapirko
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    And on the other hand, if you go healer you go Templar. I really have no dog in this race so to speak, since I dont PvE tank, but really we gotta be ok with not all classes being best at everything. The only way that would happen is if literally every class had the same skills with different names.
  • Commancho
    Commancho
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    At max cp class choice doesn't matter for tank/healer in PVE.
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    How much does the DK's buff to block mitigation reduce damage of blocked attacks? If such reductions are additive, and I think they still are given that the new 90% cap wouldn't make sense otherwise, then it's a lot more than 10%.
    Edited by FrancisCrawford on September 9, 2019 9:58AM
  • mocap
    mocap
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    DK have superior self heal, class root, class sustain (ulti, HH passive via Igni Shield). Damage shields too and they actually could be even higher than templars have.

    Templar tank is hard to play. Very bad sustain, super bad self heal, stam chain, no roots, no "screw mechanics!" aka Magma Shell.
  • Commancho
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    Magma shell won't save you from mechanics on vet. Root is not that useful in PVE as you want to pull ads to you as closest and fastest as it's possible. Sustain is not a big issue at max cp for any tank build if the player knows what he is doing.
  • redlink1979
    redlink1979
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    Why can't just some classes be better/optimized than others for certain roles?

    Why players keep asking for standardization of skills with "singularity"?!
    "Sweet Mother, sweet Mother, send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"

    Speaker of Sons of the Night Mother guild [PS4][EU]

    1200+ CP
  • FatFred
    FatFred
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    Class homogeneity is a bad thing that kills games, each class should have its advantages and disadvantages.
    If you want to challenge high-end contents, try leveling a DK tank ,serve your group's needs.
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    "Increased damage taken" debuffs such as Minor Vulnerability or Engulfing Flames aren't linked to "% damage increase" buffs such as Minor Berserk, in any way.

    Debuffs are stacking with each other but cannot recall in which way, if multiplicative or additive (it got changed in a patch this year).
    Edited by Olupajmibanan on September 9, 2019 10:33AM
  • Aznarb
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    DK have all good thing for easy tanking :

    - Magicka aoe root + synergy
    - Magicka health based heal + buff heal received
    - Magicka pull
    - Easy stam recovery with Earthen Heart line passive

    Imho Necro tank with dual frost stave is the only direct good option.
    (I truly think shield & sword is a waste of potential on necro tank)
    All what necro lose from shield & sword come back from skill class.
    And if you play Nord you've way enough resistance to be maxed.

    Necro also get a stamina heal so you can max-up stam regen instead of magicka and tank on magicka.
    Easy sustain of magicka with balance from mage guild.

    I've test it in PTS and it's very fun, probably my next char for when I don't want to play heal.

    With the buff of polar wind Warden come close too as he get a magicka pull (but a bit clunky to use)

    Templar miss everything.
    0 good sustain for the "tanking" resource pool.
    0 root.
    0 true self-heal
    Have to waste stamina to pull

    In other hand, DK is a terrible healer choice (you can heal all content but you won't help the team and the DK sustain can be horrible in stressful situation) + 0 team utility.
    While Templar heal is like DK tank, easiest and strongest of the game.
    Both are good DD option.
    PC - EU
    Healer : All class


    My English is far from perfect but I try my best !
  • Swen_von_Walhallion
    Van_Winkle wrote: »
    Templars are already too OP as DD and healers. You want, that other classes lost their roles even as tanks ?

    well its interesting bc stamplars are long time worst stamina DD, they are strong only as mag DD, and as healers was nerfet to the ground and they are not much better healer then other classes
    Adraria Argentum Draco - imperial PvE WWplar
    Bevdyen Tus Ntxhuav - Orc Stamplar
    Emilia Nihlus- Imperial PvP WWplar
    Celestun Ira Dei- Imperial Tankplar
    Halldis Rautt Höfuð- Nord Tankplar
    Misawa Yoshike - Breton Healplar
    Lae'ozhael - Dunmer Magplar
  • mocap
    mocap
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    Commancho wrote: »
    if the player knows what he is doing
    universal answer for all questions about class X vs class Y.

    The point is that DK is way easier and more safe to play, than others.

    And yes, Magma Shell can eat enormous amount of damage, while you res others, doing heavy attacks, playng with 3 DD, playing with noobs ) etc
  • OG_Kaveman
    OG_Kaveman
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
    Edited by OG_Kaveman on September 9, 2019 12:46PM
  • FrancisCrawford
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    mocap wrote: »
    DK have superior self heal, class root, class sustain (ulti, HH passive via Igni Shield). Damage shields too and they actually could be even higher than templars have.

    Templar tank is hard to play. Very bad sustain, super bad self heal, stam chain, no roots, no "screw mechanics!" aka Magma Shell.

    Is the DK class root still superior given how fear now works?

  • FrancisCrawford
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.

    He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).
  • OG_Kaveman
    OG_Kaveman
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    mocap wrote: »
    DK have superior self heal, class root, class sustain (ulti, HH passive via Igni Shield). Damage shields too and they actually could be even higher than templars have.

    Templar tank is hard to play. Very bad sustain, super bad self heal, stam chain, no roots, no "screw mechanics!" aka Magma Shell.

    Is the DK class root still superior given how fear now works?

    Magic use for cc is always better then Stam. They never ought to have increased timestops cost to insane levels.
  • Donny_Vito
    Donny_Vito
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    They never ought to have increased timestops cost to insane levels.

    Yes, this hurt the last few remaining Templar Tanks that I knew. One was very good with the TimeStop, but after they nerfed that he went full time DK when wanting to tank.

    It's like if you wanted to be a DD and you decided to go Hybrid....that's how it feels when you make a Templar tank. You're just not incredibly effective (again, related to the end-game content....not base vet dungeons or other normal content).
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Why can't just some classes be better/optimized than others for certain roles?

    Why players keep asking for standardization of skills with "singularity"?!
    FatFred wrote: »
    Class homogeneity is a bad thing that kills games, each class should have its advantages and disadvantages.
    If you want to challenge high-end contents, try leveling a DK tank ,serve your group's needs.

    Because I want to play a Templar tank and not get kicked out of groups or needing to explain myself every time the group notices I'm a templar. ZOS wants every class to be able to do every roll, that's why they'll be looking at NB and DK healers next patch. I want them to not forget Templar tanks over that.

    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.

    He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).

    Actually I was just looking at Fextralife. The number is outdated there. Gonna change that now.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • OG_Kaveman
    OG_Kaveman
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.

    He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).

    Actually I was just looking at Fextralife. The number is outdated there. Gonna change that now.

    Never use FetLife for eso stuff. Always use https://www.uesp.net, while it is not always up to date, as it is still a player based wiki, it is far, far, farrrrr more updated then fetlife.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Commancho wrote: »
    Competitive dd use pots for major sorcery /brutality. You can pull ranged targets with swarm mother at no cost. You have plenty of self/group heal capabilities. You have access to strong dots. Oh, you can get access to dk buffs if one of your dds plays dk.

    If you minmax your entire group, which is what hardcore groups do, then you have the option to change brutality for health on the potion.
    Swarm Mother might be a great monster set, but it's selfish as it only helps the tank. No trial group wants you to run Swarm Mothers over Vykosa, Thurvokun, Lord Warden or even Bloodspawn (for a better Warhorn uptime).

    Yes, you have group heals, especially in trash fights where repentance is useful. In most other fights, especially those where the adds get killed away from you, repentance is useless and you'll never want to spam Ritual of Rebirth lest you want to use up your entire magicka pool for two measily heals that heal just about 12k.
    The self heals? Well, 12k for your entire magicka pool isn't very great. If you have 36k max health, then that's two casts for 33% of your hp. DKs can heal for 33% of their missing HP, which is a great "Oh s***" skill. If a templar started channeling Rememberence, then you have 4 seconds of not being able to reapply taunt or pull or even move to do mechanics or block. It's not an alternative and your group wants you to use Barrier and Warhorn instead.

    Strong dots are nothing a tank cares about. Not sure why you bring that up.

    Yes, you get access to DKs buffs if one of your DDs plays a DK. Mainly the minor brutality. That DK DD still won't run fire breath, because other flame damage spells in its place can deal more damage, making it the tank's job again.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »

    Never use FetLife for eso stuff. Always use https://www.uesp.net, while it is not always up to date, as it is still a player based wiki, it is far, far, farrrrr more updated then fetlife.

    FetLife is something else entirely. :)
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