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Templar tanks - What's missing?

  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    honestly the only thing i think most tanks could benefit from over DK is a pull option and a aoe immobilize

    but you can use turn evil and silver lash...

    templar offers
    min prot and stun with turn evil
    aoe heal and purge with ext ritual
    a shield
    resource recovery with shards
    damage mitigation and recovery with rune
    self heal with jabs
    cheap oh *** ultimate heal
    minor debuff that also inc. group damage output...


    the only thing that really annoyed me is the change to empowering because it worked really well with automated defense set...

    and more classes should get some sort of pull option that doesnt cost and arm and a leg

    Templars already gain minor protection from their passives, so the only reason to run turn evil is the stun.

    Purge from Extended Ritual is honestly really awesome. That's what I would want more of. But currently, your bar is so full already that Extended Ritual is the first skill to drop out for things like Altar, Orbs etc.

    The shield is great, but isn't as great as DKs shield + self heal. Their shield even increases their healing, making the 33% missing health even stronger.

    Resource recovery with shards is good, but only if you have the bar space for it. Considering that synergies have a cool down, you might as well leave that to the healers.

    Rune is good, but Rune alone doesn't solve your recovery issues. Compared to what Balance does for DKs, it's just no match, but it also can't get the sustain buffed because it would make Templars in PvP too oppressive. They are already unkillable on their safe space.

    Self heal with jabs.... are you kidding me? The time it takes to heal myself with jabs... When am I supposed to block then?

    Ultimate heal is good, but having Warhorn and Barrier is better if you ask the group. Also 4 seconds of not being able to move, reapply taunt, pull enemies is quite the downside...

    Minor debuff? You mean Power of the Light? Yeah, it's a good skill, but better on a templar DD or healer. The tank has no bar space left for it.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.

    He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).

    Actually I was just looking at Fextralife. The number is outdated there. Gonna change that now.

    Never use FetLife for eso stuff. Always use https://www.uesp.net, while it is not always up to date, as it is still a player based wiki, it is far, far, farrrrr more updated then fetlife.

    You are right, I should know better ^^
    They still think Argonians have poison resistance. :D
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • OG_Kaveman
    OG_Kaveman
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.

    He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).

    Actually I was just looking at Fextralife. The number is outdated there. Gonna change that now.

    Never use FetLife for eso stuff. Always use https://www.uesp.net, while it is not always up to date, as it is still a player based wiki, it is far, far, farrrrr more updated then fetlife.

    You are right, I should know better ^^
    They still think Argonians have poison resistance. :D

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Argonian what are you talking about?
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.

    He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).

    Actually I was just looking at Fextralife. The number is outdated there. Gonna change that now.

    Never use FetLife for eso stuff. Always use https://www.uesp.net, while it is not always up to date, as it is still a player based wiki, it is far, far, farrrrr more updated then fetlife.

    You are right, I should know better ^^
    They still think Argonians have poison resistance. :D

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Argonian what are you talking about?

    Fextralife I mean. If this was a joke, then sorry for ruining it. But back to Templar tanks now please!
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • OG_Kaveman
    OG_Kaveman
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    OG_Kaveman wrote: »
    Engulfing flames is 10%.

    balance is 5.1k health for non imperials, 4920 for imperials.

    Nominally. Divide such figures by at least 1.4 in practice, because they're additive to other damage buffs.

    While that my might be closer to actual damage increase, the skill still says 10%. Not 7%. This guy has a point but the devil is in the details and the little mistakes the guy made in the op makes them look like he is ill informed.

    He was repeating what he was told. What he was told was probably accurate to one significant digit (I can imagine the gain being below 6.5% or above 7.5%, but not in most builds).

    Actually I was just looking at Fextralife. The number is outdated there. Gonna change that now.

    Never use FetLife for eso stuff. Always use https://www.uesp.net, while it is not always up to date, as it is still a player based wiki, it is far, far, farrrrr more updated then fetlife.

    You are right, I should know better ^^
    They still think Argonians have poison resistance. :D

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Argonian what are you talking about?

    Fextralife I mean. If this was a joke, then sorry for ruining it. But back to Templar tanks now please!

    Oh I see, you weren't very clear who you meant by "they".
  • p_tsakirisb16_ESO
    p_tsakirisb16_ESO
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    mocap wrote: »
    Templar tank is hard to play. Very bad sustain, super bad self heal, stam chain, no roots, no "screw mechanics!" aka Magma Shell.

    You haven't played a Templar, especially tank it seems.
    Templar has one of the best sustains for tanks, alongside the Sorcerer.

    DK has one of the worse sustains.
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Ask any hardcore trial group and they'll tell you to go DK tank. Templar tanks are second class citizens, only allowed to offtank if at all. Why is that?

    I was told it comes down to the DK being able to:
    • supply the entire group with Major and Minor Brutality
    • as well as the increase of the entire group's fire damage by 10%
    • A magicka based pull that doesn't compromise their ability to keep block up
    • potent missing health based heal

    The people gave you the reasons are thinking one dimensional for their own specific group which if one deviates it goes pear shape even the easiest of the vet trials.

    To respond to the points also.

    a) Yes, but so DK DDs also have those buffs.
    b) How?
    c) A DK using grip more than once is a dead DK tank as Magicka is the most easily exhausted and needed resource for a DK tank. A good DD worth his salt, knows that and prefers Leash these days, on top of constantly spamming Balance to gain Magicka for all the rest of the things need to cast. (group shields etc).
    d) Which is OK but Templars have more alternatives and aren't Magicka starved, allowing the spamming of HoD or BOL in emergencies.


    I take out more my Templar tank then all my other 4 tanks combined. Over the Sorcerer because I love more that certain (Templar) toon, but over NB & DK & Warden easily because is the better class and can rely on him more.

    It has everything needed and more over the DK tank. Same, if not better, protection & resistances, has no issue with resource management as Magicka (is only used for healing, etx ritual, focus & shield) and Stamina comes in abundance, especially for Khajiit. Who has one of the best Stamina sustains to chain pull with Leash and Taunt (pierce armor) a whole room with Focus & Repentance down.
    And when sh** hits the fan, pulls Remembrance and saves the day, otherwise the spamming ultimate is Warhorn.

    DK on the other hand has to spam it's own ultimate as soon at it charges to gain resources, and Horn is a total afterthought where more likely or not will not manage to use even once in a vet trials or vet DLC dungeon.

    Closing, if you decide to take a DK tank into a normal random dungeon, where the DDs cannot do 10K between them (happens in PUGs) you have to quit if you do not want spending the whole day there.
    Templar on the other hand has the stamina skills to do 11K-12K (single target) on it's own by switching 2 skills and still use dual Shield & Sword and tanking gear. While can do the job of the healer also when tanking even in vet Dragonstar let alone normal or non DLC vet dungeons.

    There is a misconception DK tank is better than Templar or Sorcerer tanks
  • Starlock
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    For normal players, templar tanking has never been in a better spot. It works perfectly well for just about everything and I'm very happy with it. I'm happier with the state of templar tanking than I've ever been, honestly. So happy I actually went and tried a vet DLC dungeon for the first time. It wasn't quite a no-death run (I wasn't expecting that with randoms) but we did beat it under the timer. :)
    I play ESO on XBOX NA
    My gameplay focus is creativity - through storytelling, character design, and character development
  • jypcy
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    Sounds like the main issue here is community perception rather than class balance. Tankplar could get a whole slew of buffs but unless the community changes its mind then you’ll still get surprised reactions and possible kicks for running tankplar.

    Along with most tank builds, I think templars are in a pretty good spot at the moment. The massive shield they have seems especially useful in the defile-heavy pve content as of late. I do still wish they’d have a health-based heal too, but that’s the only piece of the equation that really feels missing to me. Imo things like a magicka pull or root would be nice, but aren’t necessary for tankplar a to perform well.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Ask any hardcore trial group and they'll tell you to go DK tank. Templar tanks are second class citizens, only allowed to offtank if at all. Why is that?

    I was told it comes down to the DK being able to:
    • supply the entire group with Major and Minor Brutality
    • as well as the increase of the entire group's fire damage by 10%
    • A magicka based pull that doesn't compromise their ability to keep block up
    • potent missing health based heal

    The people gave you the reasons are thinking one dimensional for their own specific group which if one deviates it goes pear shape even the easiest of the vet trials.

    To respond to the points also.

    a) Yes, but so DK DDs also have those buffs.
    b) How?
    c) A DK using grip more than once is a dead DK tank as Magicka is the most easily exhausted and needed resource for a DK tank. A good DD worth his salt, knows that and prefers Leash these days, on top of constantly spamming Balance to gain Magicka for all the rest of the things need to cast. (group shields etc).
    d) Which is OK but Templars have more alternatives and aren't Magicka starved, allowing the spamming of HoD or BOL in emergencies.


    I take out more my Templar tank then all my other 4 tanks combined. Over the Sorcerer because I love more that certain (Templar) toon, but over NB & DK & Warden easily because is the better class and can rely on him more.

    It has everything needed and more over the DK tank. Same, if not better, protection & resistances, has no issue with resource management as Magicka (is only used for healing, etx ritual, focus & shield) and Stamina comes in abundance, especially for Khajiit. Who has one of the best Stamina sustains to chain pull with Leash and Taunt (pierce armor) a whole room with Focus & Repentance down.
    And when sh** hits the fan, pulls Remembrance and saves the day, otherwise the spamming ultimate is Warhorn.

    DK on the other hand has to spam it's own ultimate as soon at it charges to gain resources, and Horn is a total afterthought where more likely or not will not manage to use even once in a vet trials or vet DLC dungeon.

    Closing, if you decide to take a DK tank into a normal random dungeon, where the DDs cannot do 10K between them (happens in PUGs) you have to quit if you do not want spending the whole day there.
    Templar on the other hand has the stamina skills to do 11K-12K (single target) on it's own by switching 2 skills and still use dual Shield & Sword and tanking gear. While can do the job of the healer also when tanking even in vet Dragonstar let alone normal or non DLC vet dungeons.

    There is a misconception DK tank is better than Templar or Sorcerer tanks

    As much as I like your stance on the subject, I can't agree with everything you say.
    a) Yes, a group can have a DD run that too, but usually groups prefer to have DDs deal damage rather than buffing the group as that results in higher damage. Otherwise you would see NB DDs use lotus fan to apply minor vulnerability. Although it's not required for the tank to provide major brutality to the group, it is an option they have which no other class apart from maybe Warden's Frost Cloak can compare to.
    b) Fire Breath increases all fire damage taken from all sources by 10%. That's a lot.
    c) A (very) good DD deals 112k damage on a trial dummy and doesn't care about the tank's magicka problems. I don't know a whole lot about high end dps (only able to pull 63k dps myself), but I have never seen anyone apart from me and other tanks use any sort of pull in a trial.
    If you meant to say tank, then that's a different story. But they use Balance for a reason. And their Battle Roar passive works on any ult, so even Warhorn is a sustain tool for them. They do have the magicka.
    d) Templars do have HoD, BoL and even Ritual of Rebirth if you prefer not to accidentally heal an ally instead of yourself, but what they don't have is a heal scaling off of their max or missing health. In a bad situation where the tank only has 25% of 36k health left, a DK needs to cast their self heal only once to restore 9k health and that is disregarding their major mending buff they get from Obsidian shield. To heal themselves for 12k when low, a DK needs to press one button and a Templar needs to cast a spell twice, expending twice the magicka. Templars aren't magicka starved until they are in a pickle. Then they need it more than anything.

    Khajiit, while having okayish magicka sustain, aren't really something you want to go for on a tank. You are much better of picking an Imperial or even Argonian if you want to sustain. Unlike Khajiit, they get some stamina sustain that isn't reduced to zero as soon as they start blocking. Overall, while I appreciate your love for Templar tanks and playing the way you want, I don't think you have a good understanding of hardcore trials. It's not a misconseption. It's an unfortunate fact.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Starlock wrote: »
    For normal players, templar tanking has never been in a better spot. It works perfectly well for just about everything and I'm very happy with it. I'm happier with the state of templar tanking than I've ever been, honestly. So happy I actually went and tried a vet DLC dungeon for the first time. It wasn't quite a no-death run (I wasn't expecting that with randoms) but we did beat it under the timer. :)

    @Starlock I agree, Templar tanking is fun and works perfectly well for just about everything. It even works for trials, but you'll be getting strange looks. But you won't win a flower pot with it if you are trying to do a score run and if the trial group can choose between a Templar or a DK tank, they'll choose DK 99% of the time.

    Enjoy your vet DLC dungeons though. Templar tanks are perfectly capable of doing any dungeon. Even getting tough achievements like vMHK hardmode is not out of the question for them. It might be easier for a DK to do, but a Templar can do it too. Trust me on that one. :)
    Edited by Ratzkifal on September 9, 2019 4:47PM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    jypcy wrote: »
    Sounds like the main issue here is community perception rather than class balance. Tankplar could get a whole slew of buffs but unless the community changes its mind then you’ll still get surprised reactions and possible kicks for running tankplar.

    Along with most tank builds, I think templars are in a pretty good spot at the moment. The massive shield they have seems especially useful in the defile-heavy pve content as of late. I do still wish they’d have a health-based heal too, but that’s the only piece of the equation that really feels missing to me. Imo things like a magicka pull or root would be nice, but aren’t necessary for tankplar a to perform well.

    I agree that a magicka based pull doesn't need to be the solution to the problem. If Templars had more Warhorn uptime on default, they would already be in a much better spot for trial groups. There just needs to be something they can offer to the group. DKs definitely have lots of options in that department, but Templars not as much. That's the main difference. The community will change their opinion quickly as soon as the Templar offers something to the top 1% of the players and the mainstream chases the new meta.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • p_tsakirisb16_ESO
    p_tsakirisb16_ESO
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    a) Yes, a group can have a DD run that too, but usually groups prefer to have DDs deal damage rather than buffing the group as that results in higher damage. Otherwise you would see NB DDs use lotus fan to apply minor vulnerability. Although it's not required for the tank to provide major brutality to the group, it is an option they have which no other class apart from maybe Warden's Frost Cloak can compare to.
    b) Fire Breath increases all fire damage taken from all sources by 10%. That's a lot.
    c) A (very) good DD deals 112k damage on a trial dummy and doesn't care about the tank's magicka problems. I don't know a whole lot about high end dps (only able to pull 63k dps myself), but I have never seen anyone apart from me and other tanks use any sort of pull in a trial.

    I will stop you there. You need to go through and do the maths of how many skill slots are available and how many in your infinite wisdom DK can actually slot. Because you say DK is all good because XYZ skill but you need to fit in 10 places
    Talons, Grip, Engulfing Flames, Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash, Defensive Stance, Dragon Blood, Igneous Weapons, Fragmented Shield, Elemental Blockade (if using Staff), Bone Shield, Inner Rage, Unstoppable, Sanguine Altar and Balance.

    Make your mind first also consider that the significant majority of the above are Magicka based skills (used in Heavy Armour) which the DK tank cannot cast more than 3 (ish) before started spamming Balance (x2) to cast the next one up.

    From your post alone you clearly haven't played DK tank, and your ignorance is showing.
    Edited by p_tsakirisb16_ESO on September 9, 2019 5:33PM
  • Ratzkifal
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    a) Yes, a group can have a DD run that too, but usually groups prefer to have DDs deal damage rather than buffing the group as that results in higher damage. Otherwise you would see NB DDs use lotus fan to apply minor vulnerability. Although it's not required for the tank to provide major brutality to the group, it is an option they have which no other class apart from maybe Warden's Frost Cloak can compare to.
    b) Fire Breath increases all fire damage taken from all sources by 10%. That's a lot.
    c) A (very) good DD deals 112k damage on a trial dummy and doesn't care about the tank's magicka problems. I don't know a whole lot about high end dps (only able to pull 63k dps myself), but I have never seen anyone apart from me and other tanks use any sort of pull in a trial.

    I will stop you there. You need to go through and do the maths of how many skill slots are available and how many in your infinite wisdom DK can actually slot. Because you say DK is all good because XYZ skill but you need to fit in 10 places
    Talons, Grip, Engulfing Flames, Pierce Armour, Heroic Slash, Defensive Stance, Dragon Blood, Igneous Weapons, Fragmented Shield, Elemental Blockade (if using Staff), Bone Shield, Inner Rage, Unstoppable, Sanguine Altar and Balance.

    Make your mind first also consider that the significant majority of the above are Magicka based skills (used in Heavy Armour) which the DK tank cannot cast more than 3 (ish) before started spamming Balance (x2) to cast the next one up.

    From your post alone you clearly haven't played DK tank, and your ignorance is showing.

    Don't use Talons, don't use Defensive Stance, don't use Unstoppable. Why would you use Unstoppable AND Balance? Swap Bone Shield with Fragmented/Igneos if needed, because you are doing Cloudrest or something.
    You'll be using Balance to keep your ward and resolve up anyway, but it also fixes your sustain.

    You want me to fit two skill bars for DK tanks? Here are my 10 points from the OP along with the respective skills at the DKs disposal.
    1. Melee taunt? Pierce armor
    2. ranged taunt? Inner rage
    3. pull? Unrelenting grip
    4. self shield? Igneous Shield
    5. self heal? Green Dragon Blood
    6. resistance buff? Balance
    7. minor heroism? Heroic Slash
    8. proc the Crusher enchantment? Elemental Blockade
    9. "optional" group buffs Sanguine Altar, Fire Breath/Orbs/Boneshield
    10. "optional" sustain tool? Balance (already included in resistance buff)

    If you can do the same for a Templar tank, please share it with me, because I am currently struggling to get Elemental Blockade on my bar without dropping Heroic Slash, Extended Ritual, Ritual of Rebirth or Repentance. I can do it like Alcast and t3hasiangod who completely drop Silver Leash from their skill bars to make room, but that only works for certain boss fights.

    Don't tell me my ignorance is showing if you choose to ignore half of my reply and proceed to tell me that Khajiit are a good tank race.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • jypcy
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    jypcy wrote: »
    Sounds like the main issue here is community perception rather than class balance. Tankplar could get a whole slew of buffs but unless the community changes its mind then you’ll still get surprised reactions and possible kicks for running tankplar.

    Along with most tank builds, I think templars are in a pretty good spot at the moment. The massive shield they have seems especially useful in the defile-heavy pve content as of late. I do still wish they’d have a health-based heal too, but that’s the only piece of the equation that really feels missing to me. Imo things like a magicka pull or root would be nice, but aren’t necessary for tankplar a to perform well.

    I agree that a magicka based pull doesn't need to be the solution to the problem. If Templars had more Warhorn uptime on default, they would already be in a much better spot for trial groups. There just needs to be something they can offer to the group. DKs definitely have lots of options in that department, but Templars not as much. That's the main difference. The community will change their opinion quickly as soon as the Templar offers something to the top 1% of the players and the mainstream chases the new meta.

    But if what Templar offers can be covered by one player, and healplars are better than tankplars, then tankplars will likely still be seen as a poor choice by the community. And I don’t think that zos would try to dethrone healplars, but I guess it’s possible. I don’t really keep up with the healer meta news haha

    Re: barspace, I don’t think I’ve ever used repentance on my tankplar, so there’s a spot for silver leash. I also tend to place immobilizations pretty low on the priority list because creatures affected by them generally aren’t ones worth worrying about anyway. Certainly they have their use in some fights, but turn undead or time stop would be another flex spot imo.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    jypcy wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    jypcy wrote: »
    Sounds like the main issue here is community perception rather than class balance. Tankplar could get a whole slew of buffs but unless the community changes its mind then you’ll still get surprised reactions and possible kicks for running tankplar.

    Along with most tank builds, I think templars are in a pretty good spot at the moment. The massive shield they have seems especially useful in the defile-heavy pve content as of late. I do still wish they’d have a health-based heal too, but that’s the only piece of the equation that really feels missing to me. Imo things like a magicka pull or root would be nice, but aren’t necessary for tankplar a to perform well.

    I agree that a magicka based pull doesn't need to be the solution to the problem. If Templars had more Warhorn uptime on default, they would already be in a much better spot for trial groups. There just needs to be something they can offer to the group. DKs definitely have lots of options in that department, but Templars not as much. That's the main difference. The community will change their opinion quickly as soon as the Templar offers something to the top 1% of the players and the mainstream chases the new meta.

    But if what Templar offers can be covered by one player, and healplars are better than tankplars, then tankplars will likely still be seen as a poor choice by the community. And I don’t think that zos would try to dethrone healplars, but I guess it’s possible. I don’t really keep up with the healer meta news haha

    Re: barspace, I don’t think I’ve ever used repentance on my tankplar, so there’s a spot for silver leash. I also tend to place immobilizations pretty low on the priority list because creatures affected by them generally aren’t ones worth worrying about anyway. Certainly they have their use in some fights, but turn undead or time stop would be another flex spot imo.

    You are right, that's why I hope ZOS could add something that doesn't affect DDplars and healplars by being on a skill or passive that is useless to them or benefits tanks more. A proc on blocking damage for example.

    I also place immobilizations low on the priority list. I don't really see the point of it either. Adds are usually being taunted by you anyway. In the DK's example it's more about providing a synergy to the group, which is, again, beneficial to the group.
    I do recommend you try out Repentance for certain trash fights though. With it you can keep leashing enemies and keep block up pretty much all the time in trash fights and heal the group of the damage from the enemies you couldn't taunt or pull right away. It also makes it easy for you to recover if part of your group died as dead allies turn into sources of healing and stamina. In fights without adds, it's obviously not as useful, so you can switch it out there, although it does provide 10% increased magicka recovery just for being on your bar.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Delparis
    Delparis
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    Templars are too squishy and lacks self heal and dmg mitigation.
    That won't change so go DK for tanking and sorc for pvp.
    ZOS don't fix old bugs, they harbor them
  • Panomania
    Panomania
    ✭✭✭✭
    The problem isnt the class, its the players and ignorance of what a class can do. Templars do fine as tanks, in pretty much any content.
    A wise man once said, "Know thyself." And that mans name....was Taternuts!
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    ✭✭
    Panomania wrote: »
    The problem isnt the class, its the players and ignorance of what a class can do. Templars do fine as tanks, in pretty much any content.

    Unfortunately it's not. Yes, Templar tanks can survive even the hardest hits, but that's not what people are looking for. In ESO, tanks are group supports and DKs support their group better than Templars. If a trial group wants to get on the leader board, they are looking for the best possible group setup. They won't pick a Templar tank because the DK can do what the Templar can and then some. The Templar's ability to heal the group is a non-factor in the choice of tanks because you have healers for that who are also doing their own supporting and a Templar tank can't heal enough to replace one of the healers while tanking.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • ccfeeling
    ccfeeling
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    Don't forget warden tank this patch, buff a lot.
    They got the best self healing skill.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    ✭✭
    ccfeeling wrote: »
    Don't forget warden tank this patch, buff a lot.
    They got the best self healing skill.

    I'm not an expert on Warden tanks and I was on the fence whether to include them here or not. I chose not to because of my limited knowledge of them and how they play. I was told they are in a better spot than Templars but they lack in the damage boosting department just the same. They have a good group resistance buff and minor toughness isn't easy to come by. I was told for some trials you want to have one Warden tank but can't tell you which (vCR+3 I think). Still, I know they are not on the level of DK yet and need to be brought up a bit to be considered good enough for any type of veteran trial, same as Templars.
    It's the same with Necros, but from what I've been told they are in an even worse spot than Templars. Can't confirm though because I haven't gotten to play one yet.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • mocap
    mocap
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Templar has one of the best sustains for tanks
    DK has one of the worse sustains.

    IdealisticFreeIberianbarbel-small.gif
  • gatekeeper13
    gatekeeper13
    ✭✭
    As someone who has a 810 lvl Templar tank, I can say that yes, Templar tanks are worse than DK tanks. That's a fact and nothing can change that. When I started the game, I didnt have a clue on races, classes and roles and ended up making an Orc Templar Tank. Was bored to make a new DK character from scratch so I stayed with that.

    But is a Templar tank non-viable? Not at all. I only PUG dungeons and still managed to do veteran DLC dungeons like Depths of Malatar, CoS and Fang Lair easily with a random group. There are skills like Radiant Ward (Sun Shield) which together with Minor Protection passive makes you almost immune, Power of the Light (Backlash) which I spam and causes Minor Fracture/Breach + gives Minor Sorcery to group + 3 ultimate, Repentance which gives huge health and stamina resource back to you and group (health only), Solar Prison which applies Major Maim to all enemies in area, Remembrance which gives huge healing to all group + protecting you with Major Protection, Ritual of Retribution which slows down enemies and gives Purify synergy and Rune Focus, which will max your physical/spell armor resistance + boost stamina recovery.

    Yes all these skills are pretty useful. But you cant rely on Templar skills alone. If your Templar stays with his skills, he cant crowd control anything nor sustain. RoR is not enough. So I have to use Caltrops and Ice Staff. These too makes mobs almost immobile. Templar cant pull, so I have to use Silver Leash. Templar also has very weak resource regeneration so I also have to use Deep Thoughts to regenerate fast health, magicka, stamina. And since I PUG only, there are times when the healer sucks and I have to rely heavily on Remembrance (has saved my group from wipes numerous times) and Barrier, since Templar has no group shields (you can use Brands of Imperium but its proc not very reliable).

    Setup I use most of the time looks like that: (I focus more on group support than being selfish)

    Head + Shoulders = Thurvokun
    Body = Ebon Armor
    Weapon + Jewelry = Torug's Pact

    Skills
    Front Bar = Radiant Ward, Caltrops, Puncture, Low Slash, Deep Thoughts, Warhorn.
    Back Bar = Inner Rage, Silver Leash, Elemental Blockade (Ice Staff), Power of the Light, Repentance, Solar Prison

    (back bar skills change depending on dungeon difficulty and group)

    To sum up, the Templar tank lacks seriously in reliable resource regeneration and crowd control more than it lacks in group support (its healing abilities and amazing spear shards make up for that). Repentance may give huge health and stamina back but ONLY if there are dead bodies around and CC is almost non existent. So, would I advise someone to make a Templar Tank? No. Is playing a Templar Tank more difficult than DK tank? Yes. Is Templar Tank worse than DK tank? Yes. But if you already have a Templar Tank and dont want to delete it, be sure that with the right setup you can tank pretty much everything. (cant speak for Trials since I never do)



    Edited by gatekeeper13 on September 10, 2019 8:33AM
  • Commancho
    Commancho
    ✭✭✭✭
    Sorry but you can't blame ZOS for what your guild requires you to play as for certain roles. Maybe you should look for more open minded groups. Besides leader board rewards are trash and you get nothing beyond bragging rights. PVE at max cp is so easy that I would die from boredom if I had to use generic builds and "meta" sets.
  • satanio
    satanio
    ✭✭✭
    Try main-tanking Nahviintas on hard mode with a Templar tank. You'll quickly realize it's not a good idea.

    Green Dragon Blood alone is what puts DK above other classes in terms of main-tanking. Warden's Polar Wind got buffed, Necro has his Scythe. This enables some possibilities for Warden and Necro as main tanks, but for the hardes content like the one mentioned above, you'll still prefer DK. Sun Shield simply doesn't cut it, not even saying that DK has access to Bone Shield. You may try stacking Sun Shield with Bone Surge for extensive moments, but as you said, bar slots are an expensive commodity.

    Challenge accepted.
    Current public stam parses on Iron Atro so far (esologs - Scalebreaker)
    DW&Bow
    DW(no vMA)&Bow
    2H&Bow
    Bow&Bow
    ESOLEAKS CASUALTIES:
    Checkmath
    Tasear
    RIP
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    As someone who has a 810 lvl Templar tank, I can say that yes, Templar tanks are worse than DK tanks. That's a fact and nothing can change that. When I started the game, I didnt have a clue on races, classes and roles and ended up making an Orc Templar Tank. Was bored to make a new DK character from scratch so I stayed with that.

    But is a Templar tank non-viable? Not at all. I only PUG dungeons and still managed to do veteran DLC dungeons like Depths of Malatar, CoS and Fang Lair easily with a random group. There are skills like Radiant Ward (Sun Shield) which together with Minor Protection passive makes you almost immune, Power of the Light (Backlash) which I spam and causes Minor Fracture/Breach + gives Minor Sorcery to group + 3 ultimate, Repentance which gives huge health and stamina resource back to you and group (health only), Solar Prison which applies Major Maim to all enemies in area, Remembrance which gives huge healing to all group + protecting you with Major Protection, Ritual of Retribution which slows down enemies and gives Purify synergy and Rune Focus, which will max your physical/spell armor resistance + boost stamina recovery.

    Yes all these skills are pretty useful. But you cant rely on Templar skills alone. If your Templar stays with his skills, he cant crowd control anything nor sustain. RoR is not enough. So I have to use Caltrops and Ice Staff. These too makes mobs almost immobile. Templar cant pull, so I have to use Silver Leash. Templar also has very weak resource regeneration so I also have to use Deep Thoughts to regenerate fast health, magicka, stamina. And since I PUG only, there are times when the healer sucks and I have to rely heavily on Remembrance (has saved my group from wipes numerous times) and Barrier, since Templar has no group shields (you can use Brands of Imperium but its proc not very reliable).

    Setup I use most of the time looks like that: (I focus more on group support than being selfish)

    Head + Shoulders = Thurvokun
    Body = Ebon Armor
    Weapon + Jewelry = Torug's Pact

    Skills
    Front Bar = Radiant Ward, Caltrops, Puncture, Low Slash, Deep Thoughts, Warhorn.
    Back Bar = Inner Rage, Silver Leash, Elemental Blockade (Ice Staff), Power of the Light, Repentance, Solar Prison

    (back bar skills change depending on dungeon difficulty and group)

    To sum up, the Templar tank lacks seriously in reliable resource regeneration and crowd control more than it lacks in group support (its healing abilities and amazing spear shards make up for that). Repentance may give huge health and stamina back but ONLY if there are dead bodies around and CC is almost non existent. So, would I advise someone to make a Templar Tank? No. Is playing a Templar Tank more difficult than DK tank? Yes. Is Templar Tank worse than DK tank? Yes. But if you already have a Templar Tank and dont want to delete it, be sure that with the right setup you can tank pretty much everything. (cant speak for Trials since I never do)


    Yeah, Templar tanks are great for dungeons. vCoS hm is nothing to a templar tank because you got your own cleanse and don't need to wait for your PUG healer to do it.
    In trials it's a different story unfortunately. I also made my templar tank back when I had no real knowledge of the game and now that I am going into trials more seriously, I discover that Templar are lacking behind DK a lot, not because they can't be tanky but because they suck at supporting the group (in their role as tank mind you).
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • gatekeeper13
    gatekeeper13
    ✭✭
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    As someone who has a 810 lvl Templar tank, I can say that yes, Templar tanks are worse than DK tanks. That's a fact and nothing can change that. When I started the game, I didnt have a clue on races, classes and roles and ended up making an Orc Templar Tank. Was bored to make a new DK character from scratch so I stayed with that.

    But is a Templar tank non-viable? Not at all. I only PUG dungeons and still managed to do veteran DLC dungeons like Depths of Malatar, CoS and Fang Lair easily with a random group. There are skills like Radiant Ward (Sun Shield) which together with Minor Protection passive makes you almost immune, Power of the Light (Backlash) which I spam and causes Minor Fracture/Breach + gives Minor Sorcery to group + 3 ultimate, Repentance which gives huge health and stamina resource back to you and group (health only), Solar Prison which applies Major Maim to all enemies in area, Remembrance which gives huge healing to all group + protecting you with Major Protection, Ritual of Retribution which slows down enemies and gives Purify synergy and Rune Focus, which will max your physical/spell armor resistance + boost stamina recovery.

    Yes all these skills are pretty useful. But you cant rely on Templar skills alone. If your Templar stays with his skills, he cant crowd control anything nor sustain. RoR is not enough. So I have to use Caltrops and Ice Staff. These too makes mobs almost immobile. Templar cant pull, so I have to use Silver Leash. Templar also has very weak resource regeneration so I also have to use Deep Thoughts to regenerate fast health, magicka, stamina. And since I PUG only, there are times when the healer sucks and I have to rely heavily on Remembrance (has saved my group from wipes numerous times) and Barrier, since Templar has no group shields (you can use Brands of Imperium but its proc not very reliable).

    Setup I use most of the time looks like that: (I focus more on group support than being selfish)

    Head + Shoulders = Thurvokun
    Body = Ebon Armor
    Weapon + Jewelry = Torug's Pact

    Skills
    Front Bar = Radiant Ward, Caltrops, Puncture, Low Slash, Deep Thoughts, Warhorn.
    Back Bar = Inner Rage, Silver Leash, Elemental Blockade (Ice Staff), Power of the Light, Repentance, Solar Prison

    (back bar skills change depending on dungeon difficulty and group)

    To sum up, the Templar tank lacks seriously in reliable resource regeneration and crowd control more than it lacks in group support (its healing abilities and amazing spear shards make up for that). Repentance may give huge health and stamina back but ONLY if there are dead bodies around and CC is almost non existent. So, would I advise someone to make a Templar Tank? No. Is playing a Templar Tank more difficult than DK tank? Yes. Is Templar Tank worse than DK tank? Yes. But if you already have a Templar Tank and dont want to delete it, be sure that with the right setup you can tank pretty much everything. (cant speak for Trials since I never do)


    Yeah, Templar tanks are great for dungeons. vCoS hm is nothing to a templar tank because you got your own cleanse and don't need to wait for your PUG healer to do it.
    In trials it's a different story unfortunately. I also made my templar tank back when I had no real knowledge of the game and now that I am going into trials more seriously, I discover that Templar are lacking behind DK a lot, not because they can't be tanky but because they suck at supporting the group (in their role as tank mind you).

    Totally agree.
  • FatFred
    FatFred
    ✭✭✭
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Starlock wrote: »
    For normal players, templar tanking has never been in a better spot. It works perfectly well for just about everything and I'm very happy with it. I'm happier with the state of templar tanking than I've ever been, honestly. So happy I actually went and tried a vet DLC dungeon for the first time. It wasn't quite a no-death run (I wasn't expecting that with randoms) but we did beat it under the timer. :)

    @Starlock I agree, Templar tanking is fun and works perfectly well for just about everything. It even works for trials, but you'll be getting strange looks. But you won't win a flower pot with it if you are trying to do a score run and if the trial group can choose between a Templar or a DK tank, they'll choose DK 99% of the time.

    Enjoy your vet DLC dungeons though. Templar tanks are perfectly capable of doing any dungeon. Even getting tough achievements like vMHK hardmode is not out of the question for them. It might be easier for a DK to do, but a Templar can do it too. Trust me on that one. :)

    haha ,reminds me of WoW , if a team leader can choose between a DK tank or a 'other tank' for mythic + dungeons, they'll choose DK 99% of the time.

  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    FatFred wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Starlock wrote: »
    For normal players, templar tanking has never been in a better spot. It works perfectly well for just about everything and I'm very happy with it. I'm happier with the state of templar tanking than I've ever been, honestly. So happy I actually went and tried a vet DLC dungeon for the first time. It wasn't quite a no-death run (I wasn't expecting that with randoms) but we did beat it under the timer. :)

    @Starlock I agree, Templar tanking is fun and works perfectly well for just about everything. It even works for trials, but you'll be getting strange looks. But you won't win a flower pot with it if you are trying to do a score run and if the trial group can choose between a Templar or a DK tank, they'll choose DK 99% of the time.

    Enjoy your vet DLC dungeons though. Templar tanks are perfectly capable of doing any dungeon. Even getting tough achievements like vMHK hardmode is not out of the question for them. It might be easier for a DK to do, but a Templar can do it too. Trust me on that one. :)

    haha ,reminds me of WoW , if a team leader can choose between a DK tank or a 'other tank' for mythic + dungeons, they'll choose DK 99% of the time.

    It's even funnier if you consider that Deathknight and Dragonknight have the same abbreviation. Maybe there is some hidden meaning to it? Or maybe ESO is trying to copy WoW. (I'm just joking, don't lynch me)
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • RavenSworn
    RavenSworn
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought endgame tanking is... That, endgame tanking. Dk are the best, hands down. Healing? Templars. Sure you can slot in a nb heal or a nb tank or two, but ultimately, that's why they are at the pinnacle of tanking.

    Its the same with why dks aren't the best for dps... Cos nb and sorcs are better at it. Or necros. Ultimately it would mean that you might need to change up your group setup?

    You can always tank in any class for the rest of game, it's only in endgame tanking that you need to put aside self for others. That's what I think anyway.
    Ingame: RavenSworn, Pc / NA.


    Of Wolf and Raven
    Solo / Casual guild for beginners and new players wanting to join the game. Pst me for invite!
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    RavenSworn wrote: »
    I thought endgame tanking is... That, endgame tanking. Dk are the best, hands down. Healing? Templars. Sure you can slot in a nb heal or a nb tank or two, but ultimately, that's why they are at the pinnacle of tanking.

    Its the same with why dks aren't the best for dps... Cos nb and sorcs are better at it. Or necros. Ultimately it would mean that you might need to change up your group setup?

    You can always tank in any class for the rest of game, it's only in endgame tanking that you need to put aside self for others. That's what I think anyway.

    Yeah, I think you are already doing that plenty with the gear you wear, no need to also give up your identity. I just think it doesn't make any sense for ZOS to on the one hand want every class to be able to heal, dps and tank, but then on the other not give every class equal opportunity. Next update Sorc, NB and DK healers will be buffed, so I'm hoping that Templar tanks will too. But I heard nothing of the sort, so I made this thread as a reminder.
    (Of course other classes could need a buff to their tanking capabilities too, but I'm not an expert on their tanking pain points.)
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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