Remove dps counters

Icy_Waffles · August 2019

People will still find ways to test and find dps.

Used to use bloodspawn.

It’s a good metric to work to improve and learn.

mustangmorgan31 · August 2019

I so sick of forum posts like this one. Instead of wanting DPS counters to be removed, how about you improve and get better. Then those so called "toxic elitists" players wouldn't call you out on your crap DPS. It takes time and practice. Awesome DPS doesn't get handed to you. You have to work for it.

quadraxis666 · August 2019

highkingnm wrote: »

hazelnuts wrote: »

highkingnm wrote: »

Multiple trials have DPS checks or are almost impossible with low DPS due to volume of mechanics.

This sounds like a excuse for not wanting to learn the proper mechanics, just look at the higher dps players when they are pugging some dungeons, have no clue about mechanics cuz normaly they are just burning everything and as soon as there is a lack of dps (other dd isnt as good maybe) they die to easy mechanics because they have never seen that

If you have unbalanced DPS on Maw, that is a failure to play the mechanics and the Twins will kill you in execute. If you cannot do enough damage through shield phase on first boss, you will wipe. If you don’t damage Rakkhat enough, he will enter lunar phase. You will likely wipe. In Sunspire, if you don’t get the adds down fast enough, you will likely wipe. In Hardmode, you will. In vAA HM, the Mage will kill low DPS groups in execute. In vAS, you will get adds enraging. In vCR you won’t be able to clear portals in time, guaranteeing a wipe.

I mentioned trials, but if you want to talk about dungeons let’s look at them. Low DPS in vCoAII. That’s a wipe. Can’t get the wolves down in vMoS, the stranglers in vLoM, the werewolf adds in vMHK? That’s a wipe.

Damage checks are PART of the mechanics. You need to kill things before they kill you and ZOS has ways to enforce that behaviour. You can pretend it is ‘skipping the mechanics’ but step into Maw with a group of people only hitting 15-20k on target dummies and let me know how it goes.

^ All of this.

The hard content is for the best players, that doesn't mean the players with the best gear, it means the best at physically playing the game interacting with controls, reacting to the situations presented, playing defensively when necessary, or going all out damage when required and actually being competent enough to hit those high numbers.

You feel that logs are excluding you, they're actually helping others make sure you can pull your weight before they bring you in because even one group member can be the difference between success or a wipefest and 11 other people shouldn't have to waste their time struggling because of one less skilled player if they don't want to.

All those players that have bis gear had to get it in the first place without already having it, which is why people say if you aren't good enough to get it, you don't need it anyway. It won't make you any better. You can't even reach the full potential of the gear you already have...

[snip] The only person excluding you and holding you back is you!

[edited for trolling]

Heelie · August 2019

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

no point Zos want this behaviour in the game, they would have not added it to the base game or allow add ons, or have dps test dummies, just release that Zos is Happy with Toxic behaviour/elitism and come to terms with it

What's so toxic about expecting your team members to carry their weight and share the common goals/mindset? It's so strange that "anti-elitist" people tend to overlook the social aspect.
Group activities are supposed to be fun for everyone, and it's quite difficult to have fun in a company of people you secretly (or not so secretly) despise. Everyone has a different approach to the game, and it's perfectly normal, but trying to join people who have drastically different goals and mindset is a recipe for disaster. It can be an issue even for gaming couples (even though they have more in common that your average guildies), and you cannot expect a group of strangers to adopt your way of playing and conform to your goals.
Raid guilds are typically interested in people who share the same mindset and are team players. OP is obviously not interested in progression, and he/she also dislikes those guilds and their ways. Fair enough, but then why not to join a more relaxed guild and play with them? There's plenty of guilds that wouldn't even ask you for parses and you can always make a new one.
I've seen enough people who wanted to join the best raiding group they can find just to get a fancy title/skin and leave. Even if they have decent dps, this attitude is kinda bad, or, dare I say it, toxic. We might enjoy different things in game, but basic human decency is still a must. Seeing other people as free carries and stepping stones for your goals is not okay, it's no better than kicking a cp10 player from a normal dungeon or vandalizing rp events.
Live and let live. If you don't like how other people play their game, then don't play with them. There's enough space for all of us.

I do all content in the game, what i was stating was Zos was ok with it, i have been playing eso from alpha stages, what i stated is they are ok with it, no need to go on a rant. I have completed everything in game, so please dont presume i am saying something iam not with ur rant

A person who did every single vet HM clear would'nt complain about ZOS adding target dummies to peoples houses I simply don't believe you

Nefas · August 2019

This thread’s theme seems familiar.

MartiniDaniels · August 2019

This is absurd. This meters exists to make you a better player, to analyze points of improvement, removing it will only make harder for players to progress and harder to complete difficult content. There is recent thread where player doubled his dps in one day by providing CMX parse and following advices of forum members.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490567/dps-underperformance-why

Toxicity is some strange new-invented term for something that existed throughout all history of humanity, i.e. boasting, bullying and so on. You can't change human nature by removing several add-ons. There is easy way for 1 dps to show that second dps is bad. Simply stop doing damage and as soon as mobs/boss stop to melt it's pretty clear to healer and tank who is who.

kylewwefan · August 2019

We don’t have this kind of stuff on console. Is it part of the base game on PC? Is it some kind of add on? If they got rid of all your add ons...well is that what you’re asking for?

Anyways, you should definitely use and abuse and torture the random group finder. I do

And the guy that’s not pulling his weight, we already know who you are. Don’t need no meter to tell me the guy running around light attacking everything isn’t doing much damage. It’s fairly obvious.

TheBonesXXX · August 2019

I agree, just make ESO aim based, classless, seamless open world, and all the dungeons explorable.

Then there wont be need for any of the dumb ***.

Narvuntien · August 2019

I like to know my dps so I can improve myself.

I have no interest in blaming others

KappaKid83 · August 2019

hazelnuts wrote: »

remove dps counters from game, it just promotes elitism and toxicity, also give us the option to completly opt out of the esolog thingie and not just get shown as anonymous, unless its 11 completly randoms who all seem to play the same class + setup you always have a way to see which anonymous is who.

I somewhat understand the sentiment but no, most MMO's with a heavy PvE influence and end game raiding has some sort of DPS/HPS tracker. WOW has had one for ages yet there it is, still doing its thing, not being toxic or eilitist. Also, ESO Logs exist now so you'll probably never see this through.

DjMuscleboy02 · August 2019

I random queued normal dungeon last night with two so-called "elite" players, we'll call them "Uses Mephala on Stamplar" and "Mute Australian", "Uses Mephala on Stamplar" was queued as a tank and didn't taunt a single thing. They just relied on their damage to kill things and it got our healer constantly killed. I'm so sick of behavior like this from the "elite" players.

JamieAubrey · August 2019

I couldn't honestly give a toss about my DPS if I join a random dungeon and you're not happy then tough titty, if we get through it and I don't die then its all good

Trials are another matter though, I'll never join a trial group as I know my DPS isn't high enough

Also feel free to check my NON STATS

https://www.esologs.com/character/eu/megaserver/vex valentino

DemonDruaga · August 2019

Well before those tools people would just run up to bloodspawn (or some scorpion boss in craglorn at some point in time) and beat it down with a timer next to their keyboard.
Eliminating these tools won't help anything.

Heady · August 2019

have been in many prog groups (far below what i am usually use to) there is a couple trials where dps needs to be a minimum and for a single dps to be doing 25% of group dps is because of threads like this.

people do not want to work on themselves to become better players

dogman · August 2019

Eraldus wrote: »

Varkal2112 wrote: »

This "toxicity" meme is getting stale. No one is obligated to carry you if you can't pull your weight. [snip]

[snip]

how the *** is it toxic to ask somebody to get better at a game and not expect people to carry them through content?

[edited to remove quote]

MLGProPlayer · August 2019

kylewwefan wrote: »

We don’t have this kind of stuff on console. Is it part of the base game on PC? Is it some kind of add on? If they got rid of all your add ons...well is that what you’re asking for?

Anyways, you should definitely use and abuse and torture the random group finder. I do

And the guy that’s not pulling his weight, we already know who you are. Don’t need no meter to tell me the guy running around light attacking everything isn’t doing much damage. It’s fairly obvious.

OP is complaining about DPS requirements. In the past, you could lie about your DPS when joining a progression guild. Some groups would ask for a screenshot of your parse, but you could easily use someone else's for that.

With ESO Logs, people can actually see your DPS now, and some people aren't happy about being called out for not pulling their weight. But even before ESO Logs, you could figure out if someone wasn't pulling their weight by looking at your percentage of team DPS using Combat Metrics. If you were doing a larger percentage of the team's damage than is normal, it would mean someone else wasn't pulling their weight (you could ask for screenshots of people's CM then).

Some players get defensive when they are told they need to improve, so you get threads like this.

There is a huge difference between toxicity/elitism and constructive criticism. Some people are genuine ***. But the majority of players are helpful and want to see you get better. Not everyone can take criticism though.

anitajoneb17_ESO · August 2019

Socializing is the key.

I don't pull 100% of my weight either in vet content, but I have friends who are good. I ask them to carry me if I need an achievement or a monster mask in difficult content. More often than not they also ask me to join them, in the full knowledge that I'm not as good as the content requires, but we like each other and it's fun to run together. Sometimes they feel that having me in the group makes for some extra challenge and is a welcome change from their usual "perfect runs".

That's what friends are for. And sometimes they're not available or do their own things without me and that's of course ok with me.

I've always expressed disagreement with the DPS-centric aspect of ESO, but that's what it is, so we're left with only a few options :
- play something else
- get better
- find workarounds.

But don't make friends with people JUST for the purpose of being carried - that won't work :-)

As to DPS-meters, well, I'm generally against them, but since I run only with friends who know me and know what I can and cannot do, they don't hurt me.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · August 2019

Heelie wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

no point Zos want this behaviour in the game, they would have not added it to the base game or allow add ons, or have dps test dummies, just release that Zos is Happy with Toxic behaviour/elitism and come to terms with it

What's so toxic about expecting your team members to carry their weight and share the common goals/mindset? It's so strange that "anti-elitist" people tend to overlook the social aspect.
Group activities are supposed to be fun for everyone, and it's quite difficult to have fun in a company of people you secretly (or not so secretly) despise. Everyone has a different approach to the game, and it's perfectly normal, but trying to join people who have drastically different goals and mindset is a recipe for disaster. It can be an issue even for gaming couples (even though they have more in common that your average guildies), and you cannot expect a group of strangers to adopt your way of playing and conform to your goals.
Raid guilds are typically interested in people who share the same mindset and are team players. OP is obviously not interested in progression, and he/she also dislikes those guilds and their ways. Fair enough, but then why not to join a more relaxed guild and play with them? There's plenty of guilds that wouldn't even ask you for parses and you can always make a new one.
I've seen enough people who wanted to join the best raiding group they can find just to get a fancy title/skin and leave. Even if they have decent dps, this attitude is kinda bad, or, dare I say it, toxic. We might enjoy different things in game, but basic human decency is still a must. Seeing other people as free carries and stepping stones for your goals is not okay, it's no better than kicking a cp10 player from a normal dungeon or vandalizing rp events.
Live and let live. If you don't like how other people play their game, then don't play with them. There's enough space for all of us.

I do all content in the game, what i was stating was Zos was ok with it, i have been playing eso from alpha stages, what i stated is they are ok with it, no need to go on a rant. I have completed everything in game, so please dont presume i am saying something iam not with ur rant

A person who did every single vet HM clear would'nt complain about ZOS adding target dummies to peoples houses I simply don't believe you

again i never said that, all i said is zos is happy with it

D0PAMINE · August 2019

I have had to litterally chain spam a boss to death to help speed things up because the 2 dps getting carried hit the HM scroll. One stood there spamming flurry and died and the other kept stealing taunt with the ice staff and running around kiting the boss until they died. The healer and I finished it and they still got a hardmode clear.

thorwyn · August 2019

DPS counters are like a benchmark for your current level of play and a rough outline of what challenges/trials/modes you can try to play and which ones you should avoid for the time being. A group of 9 DDs with 10k DPS each WILL fail in vAA. Statistics, numbers, percentages and probabilities have always been one aspect of roleplaying games ever since someone tossed the first 12 sided die to kill a goblin. MMO's are no difference.

That being said, I *kind of* agree with OP's argument that there should be an way to opt out of esologs if someone wants to for whatever reason, because it reveals information beyond damage output that the game itself doesn't not reveal, pretty similar to this loot drop AddOn.

witchdoctor · August 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

There is a huge difference between toxicity/elitism and constructive criticism. Some people are genuine ***. But the majority of players are helpful and want to see you get better. Not everyone can take criticism though.

True.

Like everything, there is a spectrum of behaviour. A few people in here seem to confuse the outliers with the majority.

For every 'toxic' elitist, there is a 'toxic' muppet who cannot take any manner of criticism.

idk · August 2019

1

Fi'yra wrote: »

?? lol

I was left scratching my head as well.

However, I do agree that ESO log should be an opt in to see anything of someone's dps due to the toxic nature of some of our players. Unfortunately there is a group of lesser skilled players that tend to be fairly toxic.

However, Zos was not willing to change the design on their end that could have led to a much better system. So we settle for what we have.

Uryel · August 2019

Varkal2112 wrote: »

This "toxicity" meme is getting stale. [snip]

To be honest, there is a huge difference between "carry your weight" and "if you can"t pull 80+k DPS as a healer you're not worth having in the group". Some people get a [snip] from their damage numbers. But removing said number won't prevent elitism. It's part of the overall stupidity : copy build that someone else researched, don't care about why it works, insult people who don't use it.

Personnaly, I consider that if the group can go through a boss fight, with no death or a few marginal deaths, or even if we wipe at first try and then find a way, then everyone was carrying their weight. Even the guy who died more than anyone else, but was the one who found a proper tactic to go through.

Yesterday evening my wife was running a DLC dungeon with a pickup group. They got stuck on a boss fight, so she asked me if I could join the team to help. They had already wiped 4 times against the same boss. One of the players offered to leave so I could join. We cleared the dungeon (it's not that I'm THAT good, I have a tank character that simply can't die unless I fall asleep on the keyboard), and then we offered the person who left to accompany him through the dungeon again tonight. He was inexperienced, not in the champion levels yet, but it seems only fair that we offer help to someone who made it possible for everyone else to win. That's gonna be a fun run tonight

So, IMHO, the problem isn't with DPS metrics itself, but with the emphasis people place on it. And unfortunately, no patch can fix people.

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Well, yeah, trial groups are a free market. No one is stopping you from creating and leading a non-"elitist" group...

I've actually considered this option. Got the name already : "Dungeon Misfits". Not intended to be a main guild for everyone, merely a guild for people who like to take it slow and easy, do the quests, forage into crates and barrels, who are okay with learning among other people who would rather not use or be forced into sets and builds. Basically a laid back dungeon guild (and yes I consider trials as dungeons, just big ones). Basically the kind of folks competitive elitists would NEVER want in their groups.

I'm no longer in the mood for being a guild master, though. Been there, done that, over 10 years ago.

[edited for inappropriate content & to remove quote]

idk · August 2019

Uryel wrote: »

Varkal2112 wrote: »

This "toxicity" meme is getting stale. No one is obligated to carry you if you can't pull your weight. How about you actually l2p instead of asking them to remove the ability of other people to see how bad you are?

To be honest, there is a huge difference between "carry your weight" and "if you can"t pull 80+k DPS as a healer you're not worth having in the group". Some people get a *** from their damage numbers. But removing saif number won't prevent elitism. It's part of the overall stupidity : copy build that someone else researched, don't care about why it works, insult people who don't use it.

Personnaly, I consider that if the group can go through a boss fight, with no death or a few marginal deaths, or even if we wipe at first try and then find a way, then everyone was carrying their weight. Even the guy who died more than anyone else, but was the one who found a proper tactic to go through.

Yesterday evening my wife was running a DLC dungeon with a pickup group. They got stuck on a boss fight, so she asked me if I could join the team to help. They had already wiped 4 times against the same boss. One of the players offered to leave so I could join. We cleared the dungeon (it's not that I'm THAT good, I have a tank character that simply can't die unless I fall asleep on the keyboard), and then we offered the person who left to accompany him through the dungeon again tonight. He was inexperienced, not in the champion levels yet, but it seems only fair that we offer help to someone who made it possible for everyone else to win. That's gonna be a fun run tonight

So, IMHO, the problem isn't with DPS metrics itself, but with the emphasis people place on it. And unfortunately, no patch can fix people.

I expect and know my raiding guilds and raid teams have requirements, mostly that I can pull the dps the team/guild requires. I know they require being able to see my DPS and that is perfectly acceptable. Someone that does not want to share their dps will have to go elsewhere.

The issue is more when you have random groups such as a GF dungeon group.

I used to queue solo as a tank to help out the GF. Once has a healer start a vote kick of CP160 as soon as we ported into a dungeon. Healer quick, the rest of us 3 maned the vet HM dungeon with off heals which just shows how ignorant that healer was.

I have also often filled into a group in progress where the tank had quit. More than once they said they wiped a few times on a fight and the tank blamed them. Clear the rest of the dungeon easily which seemed to show that it was really the person complaining about the others that was the weak link.

It is really sad how some people can behave.

JusticeForJilarga · August 2019

The DPS counter is actually being used correctly. These "elites and toxics" you are referring to are actually Players who have practised the game and learned the best ways to do high amounts of DPS. These groups of high skilled players are not unique to Elder Scrolls Online. There is the Optic Clan in COD and JusticeForJilarga is sure there's probably a few in World Of Warcraft.

Though This one still thinks that It wouldn't hurt someone to not trash talk someone, and maybe give constructive criticisms when someone is doing "Low DPS."

Though there is also nothing stopping you from asking the forums for tips to help with your DPS, yes?

This one isn't that good at DPS with one Character. Doing about the same amount of damage per second with Dual Wield Nightblade as Lightning Staff Templar. Should JusticeForJilarga complain and ask to hide the "Low DPS"? No!

This one should instead:

Try out new abilities.
Obtain a nice new Armour set whether though crafting or asking someone for one.
Ask the forums for tips on how to improve DPS.

This one will end this post with an statement this one feels is important. Just play the game the way you find fun. One of JusticeForJilarga friends asks them "Why are you making lots of Khajiit classes that are not even right?". Even tells this one that "Khajiits are one of the worst classes in the game". This one is not sure whither that is true or not but it matters little to JusticeForJilarga. This one finds it fun playing with Khajiit Characters, sure it might not get this one into a high skill group (Depending on if this one's friend is right.) But this one will continue to make more Khajiit Characters.

Play the game the way you find fun and don't worry about DPS. (Unless you find doing high DPS fun and in that case ask the forums for advice on how to do more DPS.) Find other people of your Skill level and play with them, maybe some friends?

You can't blame the high skill groups for only wanting people of their level of skill. They want to do everything as efficiently as possible. Maybe some of them are competing for WWs in speed running dungeons? Whatever the reason You need to try to improve yourself instead of trying to take away a useful tool for them.

Numerikuu · August 2019

When I started this game up until low CP levels I had the DPS of a limply flailing fish out of water. It wasn't until a CP 5743897584375 person came storming past me and instakilled the overland mob I was fighting that I learned I was doing it very wrong. After that I worked on my build and went from 4-5k dps to over 40k+.

The problem isn't DPS meters. It's you.

Banana · August 2019

Roll a tank. Or play solo. Has worked for me.

Tsar_Gekkou · August 2019

Why can't people just practice to meet the standard like everyone else instead of wanting to be lazy and expecting everyone to try and carry them? A lot of content in this game is difficult enough without having to drag someone through who feels too entitled to put in a decent amount of effort to try and improve.

todokete · August 2019

I swapped to ESO back in Heavensward in ffxiv when parsing became a thing amongs the commmunity and you coudn't enjoy any content without people calling you out on your playstyle. Now I can't get myself to enjoy eso either when they know you're the "*** dps" in the party while doing pledges and they kick you.

I had been doing pledges before with no problem. Why kick now?

JusticeForJilarga · August 2019

todokete wrote: »

I swapped to ESO back in Heavensward in ffxiv when parsing became a thing amongs the commmunity and you coudn't enjoy any content without people calling you out on your playstyle. Now I can't get myself to enjoy eso either when they know you're the "*** dps" in the party while doing pledges and they kick you.

I had been doing pledges before with no problem. Why kick now?

The only logical thing that this one can think of is perhaps the standard of "Good DPS" has risen. Sadly this one can only advise you find other people at your Skill Level or try changing your setup.