Remove dps counters

Bosov · August 2019

hazelnuts wrote: »

Varkal2112 wrote: »

How am I being toxic mate? This behavior is really entitled, do you think people owe it to you to carry you? No one owes you anything, why should 11 people fail a vet trial and waste their time because you're bad or undergeared?

11 people dont fail cuz of one (unless he is a tank or healer)

Why not? If you have 11 people who just meet the in game dps requirements and one player who doesnt you will wipe.

Did you get kicked or removed from a guild or group for low dps? [snip]

[edited for baiting]

TriangularChicken · August 2019

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Well, yeah, trial groups are a free market. No one is stopping you from creating and leading a non-"elitist" group... I wonder why people don't do that instead of complaining on forums, after all, unlike bugs and balance issues this problem could easily be solved. It's pretty apparent that you dislike those "elitists", so why do you want to play with them and not with like-minded people? I'm sure there's a lot of non-elitist people like you, you should create a guild and conquer hardmodes at your own pace.

I have to quote this too, exactly my thoughts.
What OP basically says is that he wants to play with good people, but good people don't want to play with him cause he is bad. My advice: either work hard train hard so you can play with them or create your own guild with people on the same level as you.

Vicarra · August 2019

Cheesing numbers on a dummy is all well and good, but how does that teach you to not to stand in stupid if you just stand facetanking through the mechanics, putting pressure on the healers, just so you can keep up your rotation and brag about your numbers? There's more to being a good DPS than just putting out big DPS, and dummyhumping won't teach you that.

ATomiX69 · August 2019

Whats elitist about not wanting to have dead weight in your trial group?

Heelie · August 2019

Elwarc wrote: »

there is an easier solution.
Kick toxic players from the group. if they are not happy with their RANDOM group they get, don't allow them to cherrypick and waste peoples time.
It is their issue with the group, so if anyone should leave it is them.
Just think of a dd sitting 15 minutes + in the queue, then he gets into the dungeon, gets immediately kicked for being low cp and has to wait another 15 minutes befiore he can queue, to sit another 15 min+ in the queue to get a new group.
You effectively wasted 45 minutes of someones time.

If you can't carry a low cp group through a dungeon or you don't want to, don't queue for a random.
You should go to form a group, look for people in chat and invest your own time, rather than wasting other peoples time.

If you que for a vet dungeon under CP 160 as a dd you're at fault yourself for getting kicked. As for carrying low dps players. no one is entitled to my time, if I feel like you're not doing enough dps as a dps player I have every right to open a vote to kick you. Now if everyone else in the group agrees you're not up to par, you're getting kicked.

The random que finder is to speed up the process of forming a group. It's not a lasting bond. id say in return. If you can't perform your role up to par with the content you're queing for. Don't put yourself in a group with random people. Instead if you know you're not up to par pre team with people that are ok with this.

The que function should really only be used if you're 100% sure you're actually better than the requirement as you're missing out on a lot of things like coordinated classes and communication. ZOS knows this and gives a significant damage increase in the group finder. The dungeon queue is not a free carry algorithm. I say this again. No One is entitled to a free carry. And especially not anyone else time. People absolutely have the right to leave groups with bad players. As well as kick bad players as long as it's a unanimous decision.

The_Lex · August 2019

You know people used to measure DPS before the game had actual DPS meters, right? I remember many a Bloodspawn test. It wasn't perfect but it did give us a general idea.

LucyferLightbringer · August 2019

If you want to blame someone for dps requirements and "elitism" blame ZOS. It is them who put in dps checks and enrage timers as part of the mechanics.

FearlessOne_2014 · August 2019

LucyferLightbringer wrote: »

If you want to blame someone for dps requirements and "elitism" blame ZOS. It is them who put in dps checks and enrage timers as part of the mechanics.

OwnerOfSuccuby · August 2019

I will not take you even if it will be no counters, players are not so stupid, not to se how pve is going and who is useless.

Runkorko · August 2019

Dps counters are here to stay. ZoS must even add something like prooving grounds. .Want to do vet? Finish proving ground first, its like mini solo dungeon. For each rolle. If you menage to finish it as a healer you can que as such for vet. Same with other roles.
Last night i spam Wayrest Sewers.
Did less than 3k dps as tank, and stil 20% of dmg on boss was mine. This on vet.
Imagine if you get such grp in DLC dungeons

FearlessOne_2014 · August 2019

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Dps counters are here to stay. ZoS must even add something like prooving grounds. .Want to do vet? Finish proving ground first, its like mini solo dungeon. For each rolle. If you menage to finish it as a healer you can que as such for vet. Same with other roles.
Last night i spam Wayrest Sewers.
Did less than 3k dps as tank, and stil 20% of dmg on boss was mine. This on vet.
Imagine if you get such grp in DLC dungeons

They would be next to impossible to complete. Even after banging your head against the wall for hours.

ZOS develop the game to have high dps checks. So stop blaming others for not pulling your weight. You have on two entities to blame for being kicked from a group. ZOS and yourself.

MrBrownstone · August 2019

DD is easy to find and I prefer someone with 30k instead of 10k so why wouldn't I kick you? Don't queue for vet if you can't do your job. A dps having low dps is no different than a tank dying easily.

Berserkerkitten · August 2019

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

DD is easy to find and I prefer someone with 30k instead of 10k so why wouldn't I kick you? Don't queue for vet if you can't do your job. A dps having low dps is no different than a tank dying easily.

Right? Tanks get called out if they don't tank. Healers are expected to heal. If somebody queues up to deal damage, they should deal damage. It's only fair.

SoLooney · August 2019

Why should bad lazy players get carried through content for free? Not only that but bad players have that entitlement which makes it even worse

Good players put in the effort and time to master vet trials, expecting a carry doesnt go well with end game pvers unless you're paying them, and plenty of players pay for carries

So either get your dps up and find an progression group, or pay or quiet down

You are not entitled to anything

mague · August 2019

hazelnuts wrote: »

remove dps counters from game, it just promotes elitism and toxicity, also give us the option to completly opt out of the esolog thingie and not just get shown as anonymous, unless its 11 completly randoms who all seem to play the same class + setup you always have a way to see which anonymous is who.

Its is true. The world was much better before ACT emerged. It really destroyed the whole genre. Why would i want to statistically analyse a fantasy mmo ... ?

But this is now like 8-10 years and we have streamers, influencers and esports. I doubt it will go away from the fantasy genre.

Rake · August 2019

No

Suddwrath · August 2019

Consoles do not have DPS meters but yet elitism and toxicity still exists on those platforms, so removing them from the game would not prevent those types of behavior.

bmnoble · August 2019

I don't know about most people, I have never paid any attention to DPS stats checks etc...

I judge a player based on what I see when I am grouped with them, I main a tank, if I see the people who have chosen the DPS role struggling to kill the initial trash mobs on the way to the first boss, that's strike one, if they take a hell of a long time to kill the first boss or keep getting killed during the fight that's strike 2.

People ask me how I judge, since I main a tank I see all sorts of DPS, I know dam well when I get a couple good ones because I never get the chance to kill anything or use my crowd control abilities everything is just dead.

As for boss fights with good DPS it is rare that I ever generate enough ultimate to use warhorn more than a second time during the boss fight, usually the boss is dead before I get the chance to use it the second time.

While with less skilled groups I get to use my chains and crowd control ability's to pull the trash mobs together, taunt dangerous ads and do a little bit of damage, mostly I just have to take the heat off the rest of the group while they kill stuff, I generally have no problems with sustain in such a group.

For Boss fights with such a group, I usually have to use the warhorn ultimate at most 3 times during the fight, they take a bit longer but are by no means awful, they know the mechanics have rotations worked out and do reliable DPS, this is the most common group type I get in pugs.

I know when I get a bad group because, I find myself running out of resources, having to use my ability's to actually kill the ads because the DPS are taking as long as me the tank to kill stuff. I have to rely on the aoe proc sets Thunderbug and Grothdar to whittle down the ads after I chain them all together.

The best way to describe what happens in a boss fight with such a group, is to recount a recent run of Dire frost keep, things took a little while, I though this group was ok BUT when we got to the final boss, both DPS seemed incapable of using break free, it took the group nearly half an hour to beat the last boss on normal. If the healer had not asked me to stay I would have left 15 minutes into said boss fight. No one died mind you, there were no wipes the fight just took nearly half an hour.

Strike 3 is either:

On normal, the healer abandoning the group because its taking to long to finish the dungeon, sometimes I will feel pity and stay with the group I know the crappy queue times DPS get but I don't always feel like wasting an hour or more of my time in a normal dungeon, if its a DLC one I can understand it taking a little while but I won't put up with it for a base game dungeon.

On Vet the other DPS leaving because they know there is not enough group damage, to defeat the boss, followed by the tank(me) and healer leaving the crappy DPS behind.

Strike 3 results in either:

-A vote kick for the crappy DPS in the group

-Me having the crown and both DPS are crap, me whispering the healer that I am going to kick both and re-queue for new DPS

-Healer having the crown and whispers me that they are going to do the above

The 3 options above have been rare in my experience most of the time a group can muddle through, with a bad tank/healer and one bad DPS but when both DPS are bad dungeons become near impossible even on normal, so I make no apologies, when it comes time to kick someone

-Other DPS having the crown and saying in group chat that they are kicking the other DPS either after they have done it or right before they do it.

Sometimes a DPS does kick simple due to low level, or elitist attitude, if its a vote kick and I feel the player being kicked does not deserve to be I vote against it, if its plain to see the player is not ready for the content, again I make no apologies, when it comes time to kick someone.

-The crap DPS has the crown the rest of us leave and sometimes reform and enter the queue as a group with whatever members we need from the dungeon finder.

Can't really speak for trials I rarely take part in them and only when one of my guilds pesters they need a tank, even then only on normal trials. But if your finding yourself kicked from dungeons, you really should not be trying to join a trial group, unless its with a guild that shows people how to do them and is forgiving of new players learning them.

gabriebe · August 2019

That ship sailed a long time ago.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · August 2019

no point Zos want this behaviour in the game, they would have not added it to the base game or allow add ons, or have dps test dummies, just release that Zos is Happy with Toxic behaviour/elitism and come to terms with it

LadyNalcarya · August 2019

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

no point Zos want this behaviour in the game, they would have not added it to the base game or allow add ons, or have dps test dummies, just release that Zos is Happy with Toxic behaviour/elitism and come to terms with it

What's so toxic about expecting your team members to carry their weight and share the common goals/mindset? It's so strange that "anti-elitist" people tend to overlook the social aspect.
Group activities are supposed to be fun for everyone, and it's quite difficult to have fun in a company of people you secretly (or not so secretly) despise. Everyone has a different approach to the game, and it's perfectly normal, but trying to join people who have drastically different goals and mindset is a recipe for disaster. It can be an issue even for gaming couples (even though they have more in common that your average guildies), and you cannot expect a group of strangers to adopt your way of playing and conform to your goals.
Raid guilds are typically interested in people who share the same mindset and are team players. OP is obviously not interested in progression, and he/she also dislikes those guilds and their ways. Fair enough, but then why not to join a more relaxed guild and play with them? There's plenty of guilds that wouldn't even ask you for parses and you can always make a new one.
I've seen enough people who wanted to join the best raiding group they can find just to get a fancy title/skin and leave. Even if they have decent dps, this attitude is kinda bad, or, dare I say it, toxic. We might enjoy different things in game, but basic human decency is still a must. Seeing other people as free carries and stepping stones for your goals is not okay, it's no better than kicking a cp10 player from a normal dungeon or vandalizing rp events.
Live and let live. If you don't like how other people play their game, then don't play with them. There's enough space for all of us.

worrallj · August 2019

I really enjoy seeing how I stack up personally. It's easy in video games, as long as your not dying, to dupe yourself into thinking your better than you are. Before I got combat metrics back in the day I definitely did that. I like the reality check.

MehrunesFlagon · August 2019

One small question.How would one tell if something is an improvement consistently? Those kind of are tools to determine such things.

Vapirko · August 2019

There’s people expecting you to be reasonably good at the game for certain levels of content because they don’t want to carry you/spend all night on a boss and then there’s people being needlessly toxic. Honestly, which is it?

MehrunesFlagon · August 2019

TriangularChicken wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Well, yeah, trial groups are a free market. No one is stopping you from creating and leading a non-"elitist" group... I wonder why people don't do that instead of complaining on forums, after all, unlike bugs and balance issues this problem could easily be solved. It's pretty apparent that you dislike those "elitists", so why do you want to play with them and not with like-minded people? I'm sure there's a lot of non-elitist people like you, you should create a guild and conquer hardmodes at your own pace.

I have to quote this too, exactly my thoughts.
What OP basically says is that he wants to play with good people, but good people don't want to play with him cause he is bad. My advice: either work hard train hard so you can play with them or create your own guild with people on the same level as you.

Moral of this is you have to make good players want to play with you.

MehrunesFlagon · August 2019

SoLooney wrote: »

Why should bad lazy players get carried through content for free? Not only that but bad players have that entitlement which makes it even worse

Good players put in the effort and time to master vet trials, expecting a carry doesnt go well with end game pvers unless you're paying them, and plenty of players pay for carries

So either get your dps up and find an progression group, or pay or quiet down

You are not entitled to anything

It also provides the illusion that you are able to clear it without issues.

Kolzki · August 2019

Dps counters allow us to optimise our builds/rotations/strategies so that we can progress at end game content. If you’re playing that stuff then you already know that you need them.

If you’re not playing that kind of content then frankly who cares about dps counters. Find a group of like minded people and enjoy the game with them.

mongoLC · August 2019

A good player can just look at you and tell your rotation is crap and not doing any damage.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · August 2019

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

alainjbrennanb16_ESO wrote: »

no point Zos want this behaviour in the game, they would have not added it to the base game or allow add ons, or have dps test dummies, just release that Zos is Happy with Toxic behaviour/elitism and come to terms with it

What's so toxic about expecting your team members to carry their weight and share the common goals/mindset? It's so strange that "anti-elitist" people tend to overlook the social aspect.
Group activities are supposed to be fun for everyone, and it's quite difficult to have fun in a company of people you secretly (or not so secretly) despise. Everyone has a different approach to the game, and it's perfectly normal, but trying to join people who have drastically different goals and mindset is a recipe for disaster. It can be an issue even for gaming couples (even though they have more in common that your average guildies), and you cannot expect a group of strangers to adopt your way of playing and conform to your goals.
Raid guilds are typically interested in people who share the same mindset and are team players. OP is obviously not interested in progression, and he/she also dislikes those guilds and their ways. Fair enough, but then why not to join a more relaxed guild and play with them? There's plenty of guilds that wouldn't even ask you for parses and you can always make a new one.
I've seen enough people who wanted to join the best raiding group they can find just to get a fancy title/skin and leave. Even if they have decent dps, this attitude is kinda bad, or, dare I say it, toxic. We might enjoy different things in game, but basic human decency is still a must. Seeing other people as free carries and stepping stones for your goals is not okay, it's no better than kicking a cp10 player from a normal dungeon or vandalizing rp events.
Live and let live. If you don't like how other people play their game, then don't play with them. There's enough space for all of us.

I do all content in the game, what i was stating was Zos was ok with it, i have been playing eso from alpha stages, what i stated is they are ok with it, no need to go on a rant. I have completed everything in game, so please dont presume i am saying something iam not with ur rant

Stebarnz · August 2019

'Please don't tell people how bad I am because I want to be carried through content I cant normally do without getting called out.'

Also give ugly people masks and fat people thin cloaks and poor people look rich yada yada yada…

if ur bad just put effort in that's literally all it takes, if you don't wanna then don't expect people who do put effort in to carry your ass. I don't ask Usain Bolt to carry my ass for a sub 10 sec 100m sprint while im smashing 10 big macs!