Why are the average players in this game so bad?

SassiestAssassin · August 2019

Game doesn't adequately prepare you for the required tasks

I feel like this is the case with normal DLC dungeons vs their Vet counterparts.

I’ve shepherded some shiny new PUGs through vDLC and sometimes it’s like pulling teeth to get them to understand every mechanic will kill you if you ignore it . So many times I’ve seen tanks (who have completed normal) just ignoring all Ogre mechs in SCP. And not understanding why they keep dying.

I don’t think this makes them bad players, just players that have picked up bad habits of standing in red circles, because usually they don’t hurt too bad.

There’s a learning curve between overland and base dungeons and normal DLC and vet DLC. And the only remedy right now is someone having the patience to guide others through (if they’ll listen.)

Ackwalan · August 2019

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Nordic__Knights · August 2019

I started out in the beginning and I think the ad actually taught you how to fight nowadays you could just walk up and heavy attack them when they die so if you ask me what's making the new players still stay average cuz they're fighting average items make them harder I mean we shouldn't be able to one shot them with a heavy attack

mairwen85 · August 2019

Define average and bad. Because they really aren't the same thing. I need context before I can vote.

Iccotak · August 2019

Game doesn't adequately prepare you for the required tasks

There is a vast difference between PvE zones and Dungeons.
I've been saying it for a while now; ZOS should review combat in PvE zones.

Starlock · August 2019

The only “bad” I can seem to find inthis thread is that of attitude and expectations...

TheBonesXXX · August 2019

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

I rather spend twelves hours making money were as you rather spend 12 hours with no return on your investment.

Also, at any point in time people like myself decide we want to crap on the top players we can practice and do it with ease.

Peak me and the like > peak people like you and you.

Actually most top tier player I play with dont spend a lot of time in game, they are just naturally good and aware and pick up new mechanics fast. As far as prioritizing IRL I absolutely agree. Some of us can work 4 hrs a day and make 6 figures though. So they dont need to work 12 hrs to make good money:)

Most top tier players just havent fell off the mountain yet, so announcing that people arent good at the game is redundant.

Nice job on the cash flow, 12 hours is still more money.

Surak73 · August 2019

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

You should define "bad" first. "Bad" in which respect? For example, I'm terribly bad in fishing: I've never ever got a single fishing achievement. Maybe this is because I don't give a f..k about fishing, and I prefer other aspects of the game. Likewise, it's perfectly possible that some players don't give a f..k about pvp, crafting, dungeons, exploration, trials, quests, socialization etc. and so they are bad in pvp, crafting, dungeons, exploration, trials, quests, socialization etc.

I have absolutely no idea about how many people are bad in each of the single different aspects of the game, but I think that the general answer might be: they are bad in that aspect simply because they don't give a f..k about it.

Makes sense, what doesnt make sense is if they dont give a F. about it why do they participate in that content? I dont care about housing, so I dont own a house:)

This is actually a problem if someone doesn't like a content AND he keeps doing it anyway. Actually, I don't know such people (of course, this doesn't mean that they don't exist...). More often, I suppose, someone simply says: "Oh well, let's give a try to this thing people are talking about in chat. How it's called? Trial? Trail? Let's see" and he gives it a try.

And here is the trick: if you are in trials (or trails, or whatever...), you are much more likely to see such people who are just trying that content to see if they like it or not; so, you are much more likely to see many more people who are bad in trials (in statistics, this is called "availability bias"), and to conclude asking "Why the average players are so bad?"...

Agenericname · August 2019

Game doesn't adequately prepare you for the required tasks

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Bad in what sense? The question lacks context.

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

He is clearly talking about housing. And regarding this I have to say the housing skill cap is too damn high. People can't even get the lighting right.
Most people can't even animation cancle their dinner Roleplay animations... Geez

In all fairness the game does not adequately teach a player how to properly animation cancel any dinner animations much less dinner roleplay animations.

lucky for you i can teach you that.
1. Download eso Theater
2. go to controlls menu scroll down and set keys for "show all" and emotes 1,2,3....
3. select your favorite emotes
4. animation cancel one emote animation with another
5. ??????
6. Profit

If done right it should look something like this (/rake + /leanbackcoin + /headache)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOB69zqWunk

Have you considered writing guides and making them easily accessible? You could bring light to all of the dark places in Tamriel. Think of all the people that could benefit!

Tsar_Gekkou · August 2019

Not enough incentive to improve

I've also been wondering this. Around 2 years ago we could pug vet crags with a good chance of beating them and groups were even beating vMoL without too many issues. Even dungeon pugs were fine and and didn't take forever. But now it feels like the average dps is lower than ever even though we have 810CP, and people who have spent a lot of time on bosses like the Twins in vMoL a still can't do a simple convert or run clockwise. I have no problem doing mechanics in vMoL and i'm not even that good, so it's baffling why people who've been doing dungeons and trials as long as or longer than I have still struggle. Maybe they just feel like the better players will carry them. And it feels like the endgame community is shrinking because good players quit every now and then but there aren't enough good players to replace them. It seems like there's only a few guilds putting up decent scores in stuff like vHoF while everyone else struggles in vHRC.

Heatnix90 · August 2019

Not enough incentive to improve

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

I rather spend twelves hours making money were as you rather spend 12 hours with no return on your investment.

Also, at any point in time people like myself decide we want to crap on the top players we can practice and do it with ease.

Peak me and the like > peak people like you and you.

Actually most top tier player I play with dont spend a lot of time in game, they are just naturally good and aware and pick up new mechanics fast. As far as prioritizing IRL I absolutely agree. Some of us can work 4 hrs a day and make 6 figures though. So they dont need to work 12 hrs to make good money:)

Most top tier players just havent fell off the mountain yet, so announcing that people arent good at the game is redundant.

Nice job on the cash flow, 12 hours is still more money.

lol imagine being so petty and triggered by the thread that you're actually resorting to the "well I make more money than you IRL" argument. Pathetic

hedna123b14_ESO · August 2019

Game doesn't adequately prepare you for the required tasks

Heatnix90 wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

I rather spend twelves hours making money were as you rather spend 12 hours with no return on your investment.

Also, at any point in time people like myself decide we want to crap on the top players we can practice and do it with ease.

Peak me and the like > peak people like you and you.

Actually most top tier player I play with dont spend a lot of time in game, they are just naturally good and aware and pick up new mechanics fast. As far as prioritizing IRL I absolutely agree. Some of us can work 4 hrs a day and make 6 figures though. So they dont need to work 12 hrs to make good money:)

Most top tier players just havent fell off the mountain yet, so announcing that people arent good at the game is redundant.

Nice job on the cash flow, 12 hours is still more money.

lol imagine being so petty and triggered by the thread that you're actually resorting to the "well I make more money than you IRL" argument. Pathetic

Most people saying that

Surak73 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Surak73 wrote: »

You should define "bad" first. "Bad" in which respect? For example, I'm terribly bad in fishing: I've never ever got a single fishing achievement. Maybe this is because I don't give a f..k about fishing, and I prefer other aspects of the game. Likewise, it's perfectly possible that some players don't give a f..k about pvp, crafting, dungeons, exploration, trials, quests, socialization etc. and so they are bad in pvp, crafting, dungeons, exploration, trials, quests, socialization etc.

I have absolutely no idea about how many people are bad in each of the single different aspects of the game, but I think that the general answer might be: they are bad in that aspect simply because they don't give a f..k about it.

Makes sense, what doesnt make sense is if they dont give a F. about it why do they participate in that content? I dont care about housing, so I dont own a house:)

This is actually a problem if someone doesn't like a content AND he keeps doing it anyway. Actually, I don't know such people (of course, this doesn't mean that they don't exist...). More often, I suppose, someone simply says: "Oh well, let's give a try to this thing people are talking about in chat. How it's called? Trial? Trail? Let's see" and he gives it a try.

And here is the trick: if you are in trials (or trails, or whatever...), you are much more likely to see such people who are just trying that content to see if they like it or not; so, you are much more likely to see many more people who are bad in trials (in statistics, this is called "availability bias"), and to conclude asking "Why the average players are so bad?"...

Like I said before I dont ask for much, I'm fine with low dps from average players, but when people stand in red circles for the entire fight I question their intelligence. I feel like "Dont stand in red unless you're an idiot" is a fairly low bar to set, so if they fail that checkpoint I dont even know what to say...

Dagoth_Rac · August 2019

ESO has a decent amount of very difficult content and a whole lot of very easy content, but hardly any mid tier content. If you get great, there is a lot of content that opens up. But if you are good but not great, what does that open up? Not much more than playing casually.

You could make normal content harder, but that is likely to drive a lot of casual players away. Remember when veteran overland zones were a thing and they were empty? So you probably need more difficulty levels, like some kind of Easy/Medium/Hard/Expert difficulty ladder. But that starts to fracture the population and probably makes filling groups even harder.

"I want to become good enough to not irritate great players in mid-tier content. And then those great players will never let me do endgame content with them because I am good but not good enough?" I don't think that sounds appealing to most casual players.

Jpk0012 · August 2019

Because the average player doesn't care about rotations let alone meta.

TelvanniWizard · August 2019

Game doesn't adequately prepare you for the required tasks

Animation cancelling, a bug become a feature, has too much weight on dps performance. And many people won´t ever even know what is it, or will refuse to follow such a lame glitch.

MojaveHeld · August 2019

Not enough incentive to improve

Meeting players who are actually willing to put in the work necessary to be able to complete the things they want to is fairly uncommon in this game. There are a lot more who want to queue for vet dlc dungeons and have people carry them, even though they do 5k dps and don't follow mechanics. The best thing that experienced players can do is teach them as if they were willing to learn, and if they accept, that's awesome, if they react rudely and refuse to learn, just accept that such a thing is par for the course with the game's playerbase.

Respect4Elders · August 2019

Because we're married and we only get so much play time until the b**ching starts up again.

DLM · August 2019

None of the proposed options. When I see people that are clueless about blocking or dodging, it's not the game's fault.

Berserkerkitten · August 2019

Huh. It's almost as if having entirely braindead world quest content, which can be completed with only light attack spam and zero clue about blocking, dodging or interrupting doesn't teach the average player how to handle mildly challenging content, let alone vet dungeons. How weird is that?

NupidStoob · August 2019

TequilaFire wrote: »

Other - this is not an esport or highly competitive game.
It is an MMORPG.

The average player in any competitive game isn't good either.

Hazurko_RaShan · August 2019

The correct question to ask would be why the MEDIAN players are so bad. Because averages are offset by the extremes and it is entirely possible that there are no players at the statistically average calculated outcome.

Michael Jordan has a degree in farming i believe. when his alma matter calculates and correctly advertises that the average income of a farming degree from that university it includes the income extreme of what michael jordan made in a years time. However, that average income is not a real number that anyone actually made. The median income, that is, the income amount that statistically occurs most frequently is considerably less than the average.

Averages are misconceptions of reality. Please ask a reality based question. Thank you.

JumpmanLane · August 2019

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Other. Not everyone is a Thicc Thot Tormentor or Godslayer. Most people are casual players.

I wanna be a Thicc Thot Tormentor!

KMarble · August 2019

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

As soon as I saw the post I knew who it was.

Maybe what you call "bad" is "average", and maybe it is okay that average players can't complete high tier content like you can? After all, would you want the average player to be able to complete vHoF HM?

Why do i as a healer have to explain to players with 800 CP that standing in red circles is bad? Why do i as a healer in Fungal Grotto 1, probably the easiest dungeon in the game endup doing 80% of dps in a high CP group, whilst healing everyone? Thats what i want...I dont care if you cant pull 80k st on Yolna, i care that you are able to use your brain in group content that can be soloed....

You answered your own question.

None of us was born knowing all. At some point we had to learn things - be it how to walk IRL, or what to do in a dungeon in ESO.

I've run with groups that don't respect mechanics (and yes, depending on what you're doing the group needs to follow mechanics even on normal). That specific group is supposed to cater to newer players, but they don't tell anyone what to expect or how to react. As you might suspect, the runs are a mess.
Those runs would probably go much smoother if the people who had already done those dungeons told people what to expect, but most of the ones with experience take the same approach as you, but probably for different reasons.

I think the game does a decent job at teaching players what to do, but most people claim to not have enough time to listen/read - they are in a hurry to get things done (in what is supposed to be a way to spend their down time - a pastime. Makes no sense to me, but that's a rant for another time).
If the game was designed to explain every single mechanic people would complain it wasn't necessary and/or not pay attention anyway.

If you - an experienced player - want to have a good experience in a dungeon, it's up to you to give guidance to the less experienced members. Even when doing Fungal Grotto 1, because you have to remember that we weren't born knowing how to clear it.

I agree and disagree. In dungeons where there is a need to explain mechanics I always do, but if the only thing you need to do is not stand in a red circle, Im sorry i dont believe that it requires an explanation....

You'd be surprised. The other day I met a player who didn't know one of the simplest things in this game. They aren't a bad player, just uninformed. I say this because I ran a dungeon with them and the awareness they showed tell me they have the potential to become very good at the game.

I know that not standing in red is obvious, but what is obvious to me, might not be obvious to other people (specially if they decided that the best for their chars was to use heavy armor to prevent dying to overland enemies).

I guess what I'm trying to say is give other players a chance. Try to tell them about possible dangers. If they insist, then it's on them, since they proved to be impervious to advice.

DLM · August 2019

KMarble wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

As soon as I saw the post I knew who it was.

Maybe what you call "bad" is "average", and maybe it is okay that average players can't complete high tier content like you can? After all, would you want the average player to be able to complete vHoF HM?

Why do i as a healer have to explain to players with 800 CP that standing in red circles is bad? Why do i as a healer in Fungal Grotto 1, probably the easiest dungeon in the game endup doing 80% of dps in a high CP group, whilst healing everyone? Thats what i want...I dont care if you cant pull 80k st on Yolna, i care that you are able to use your brain in group content that can be soloed....

You answered your own question.

None of us was born knowing all. At some point we had to learn things - be it how to walk IRL, or what to do in a dungeon in ESO.

I've run with groups that don't respect mechanics (and yes, depending on what you're doing the group needs to follow mechanics even on normal). That specific group is supposed to cater to newer players, but they don't tell anyone what to expect or how to react. As you might suspect, the runs are a mess.
Those runs would probably go much smoother if the people who had already done those dungeons told people what to expect, but most of the ones with experience take the same approach as you, but probably for different reasons.

I think the game does a decent job at teaching players what to do, but most people claim to not have enough time to listen/read - they are in a hurry to get things done (in what is supposed to be a way to spend their down time - a pastime. Makes no sense to me, but that's a rant for another time).
If the game was designed to explain every single mechanic people would complain it wasn't necessary and/or not pay attention anyway.

If you - an experienced player - want to have a good experience in a dungeon, it's up to you to give guidance to the less experienced members. Even when doing Fungal Grotto 1, because you have to remember that we weren't born knowing how to clear it.

I agree and disagree. In dungeons where there is a need to explain mechanics I always do, but if the only thing you need to do is not stand in a red circle, Im sorry i dont believe that it requires an explanation....

You'd be surprised. The other day I met a player who didn't know one of the simplest things in this game. They aren't a bad player, just uninformed. I say this because I ran a dungeon with them and the awareness they showed tell me they have the potential to become very good at the game.

I know that not standing in red is obvious, but what is obvious to me, might not be obvious to other people (specially if they decided that the best for their chars was to use heavy armor to prevent dying to overland enemies).

I guess what I'm trying to say is give other players a chance. Try to tell them about possible dangers. If they insist, then it's on them, since they proved to be impervious to advice.

To be fair, the game does a poor job at telling you which AOE are a big no. Some can be healed through and are designed as heal check (thinking of Blood Spawn in Spindleclutch II where it is not advised to wander too far) and some are going to melt you no matter the heals that you receive.

Even if as a general rule you don't want to stand in AOE, they don't all have the same level of dangerosity and only knowledge of the dungeon will tell you.

Tomg999 · August 2019

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

...... Keeping track of dots, rotations and then still being able to adhere to the strict 0.45 sec GCD the combat system demands is hard for most players......

....and doesn't really sound like much fun to me.

idk · August 2019

Skill cap is high

The poll responses to not represent the real issue, just the perceive issue.

With any MMORPG the difference between an average player and a strong players comes down to skill and skill alone, for the most part. In ESO the skill requirement to be a strong player is very different as it is not combat on rails like you have in WoW, SWTOR, FF.

Both the offense and defense require a better response. Take avoiding damage, it is slap stick silly in WoW and similar games. Here you have to be able to dodge roll, block, shield and more at a moments notice. Hesitate and you are dead, or near death.

That is just one example where combat in ESO is a step up from this antiquated combat designs and many players are challenged to adjust well. Reasons for that could be many and probably to many to delve into here.

Bosov · August 2019

Not enough incentive to improve

Why would they get better? Zos will just make the game easier.

Dagoth_Rac · August 2019

KMarble wrote: »

I know that not standing in red is obvious, but what is obvious to me, might not be obvious to other people (specially if they decided that the best for their chars was to use heavy armor to prevent dying to overland enemies).

Elder Scrolls is famous for it's immersive, 1st-person gaming. Don't forget that a lot of people play this game in first person. And things that are obvious in third person are not at all obvious in first person. Many players have no idea they are standing in red because they are in 1st person and you cannot look at the boss and at your feet at same time in 1st person.

r34lian · August 2019

TequilaFire wrote: »

Other - this is not an esport or highly competitive game.
It is an MMORPG.

Yep this ain't a competitive game

Bosov · August 2019

Not enough incentive to improve

r34lian wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Other - this is not an esport or highly competitive game.
It is an MMORPG.

Yep this ain't a competitive game

Why is there PvP in the game? The very nature of that is to compete against other players?