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Vigor on 5.1.4 has re-instated a gimped Heavy Meta for all Stam Builds.

  • JWillCHS
    JWillCHS
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    jcm2606 wrote: »
    JWillCHS wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    heavy will end up being gutted down the road when Zenimax inevitably thinks that everyone's running heavy because heavy is OP, when everyone's running heavy because it's the only way you can enjoy PVP.

    Thank you for clarifying. My thought was that this may not be true, insofar as it's not true of the role of the armor weights in PvE. It's understood only a few players are in Heavy, it has nothing to do with what's OP or not, it is how things are balanced.

    How viable/valuable certain armour weights are compared to other weights differ completely between PvE and PvP. You can afford to build for optimal damage in PvE, because you (ideally) have other players carrying your survival (tanks are keeping you from taking too much damage, healers are keeping your health topped up for the inevitable damage you do end up taking).

    In PvP, however, you can't afford to because you can't rely on other players to carry your survival. In a coordinated group, you may have a healer to keep your health topped up, but you still need to build for mitigation to reduce the damage you take, and you also need to consider moments where the healer can't heal you, whether it be they died, or you just got separated. Outside of coordinated groups, you also need to build for self-healing in addition to the mitigation.

    With that in mind, while you really only see heavy being used on tanks in PvE, PvP is a very common weight for both tanks and stamina damage dealers in PvP, because of the natural mitigation offered by heavy, in addition to the health and healing bonuses, and the fact that you don't need to give up much to build for damage in heavy. Medium offers more damage and sustain, but you can get that damage and sustain in heavy, while also being tankier.

    Consider this when reading the Scalebreaker patch notes next week. Damage from DOT's has gone up, while the effectiveness of protective (allows you to build for resists while in medium) and Vigor have gone down. Medium already forced players to make the choice between damage/sustain and survival, and it just had two of the survival tools it used nerfed, while damage has gone up.

    I don't think people will run medium when they'll need to invest so heavily into survival, just to stand a chance against everybody else. Light may be able to survive with the buffs to resto, but I think we'll see heavy become even more prevalent than it already is next patch, simply because it isn't worth it to build around medium anymore.

    As I said, in my opinion, each weight should have its own viable form of survival. Light should build around shields to mitigate damage similarly to heavy at the cost of resources and other skill casts, medium should build around dodging and generally being hard to hit to prevent damage being taken in the first place, heavy should build around passive mitigation and healing. Heavy should be the strongest passive survival weight, but light and medium should have their own forms of survival that can be just as strong as heavy, when put in the right hands. Of course with counters in place, to make it a fair fight.

    So do people not want to use sets that mitigate damage with the 5 piece bonus or is that not enough.

    People don't want to feel like they have to gimp themselves to have a chance in a fight, which you are by running a defensive 5-piece set, since you're giving up either damage or sustain, especially in non-CP. They especially don't want to when they feel that they should be given that chance as a baseline, through the defensive tools of their respective armour weight.

    When someone has to run a defensive 5-piece set just to compete with heavy, while heavy allows them to run 1/2 damage sets and maybe a sustain set thanks to the natural mitigation and bonuses to max health and healing, why would they run light or medium?

    We're not talking about an outnumbered situation, we're not talking about 1vX'ing and crutching on dodge/shields alone. We're talking about something as simple as a 1v1. When you have a few DOT's ticking for 1-2k damage each second (Entropy, Soul Trap, Twin Slashes, Carve, Reach, axe bleeds, any class DOT's), on top of any available burst damage, how are you meant to survive with a shield that costs 3.5-4k magicka, while only absorbing 4-5k damage? How are you meant to survive with a HOT that only heals you for 1-2k each second (one HOT, versus 2 or more DOT's hitting just as hard), while dodge roll is virtually RNG with how unreliable it is, and the HOT on Momentum was removed? And that's just against 1 player.

    Note that I'm not saying heavy needs a nerf, I'm saying that light/medium need a buff.

    Mechanically, shields and dodge are both fine. Shields require a fairly steep investment of resources, and lock the player out of casting other skills when they're put under pressure and forced to spam a shield and rotate heals to survive. Dodge require another fairly steep investment of resources that gets progressively worse and worse the more you do it, and forces the player to be on the move constantly, preventing them from pressuring their opponent too much. Both require active input, compared to heavy's passive mitigation and healing bonus.

    They both need help, however. The cost of shields needs to be reduced a tad, and the size needs to be bumped up, in tandem with the removal of shield stacking to prevent rotating two or more shields every few seconds. Whatever Zenimax did to dodge back during Murkmire needs to be reverted.

    I understand your position and the concerns regarding the increase in damage to DoTs. On my Magplar I use 5-1-1 light armor with Buffer of the Swift, Julianos, and Slimcraw which has worked(live patch) real well for me in no-CP and CP. The gear also isn't hard to come by which makes the setup accessible to many. Between Slimcraw, Julianos, and the light armor passives I get really good crit(40% no-CP and 50% in CP) and damage. Plus I now have minor berserk and minor force[with RAT].

    Being a Breton in light armor I get a sh!t ton of sustain. Swift gives me magicka, physical resistance, spell resistance, and mitigates 10% of all damage. I also get more spell resistance from being a Breton, and wearing light armor. I just increase physical resistance with CP. Then stack all that with Channel Focus.

    I really like the light armor passive and on PTS it's still working pretty well with the build. I'm just waiting to really test the changes on the live server in more real situations.

    Edit: I also back bar sword and board getting more resistances and those critting blockcast HtD.
    Edited by JWillCHS on August 7, 2019 1:38PM
  • Davadin
    Davadin
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Even heavy stam won't be competitive next patch.

    Vigor will be worse than live. Momentum HoT is gone. All the good heavy sets were nerfed.

    This diminished version of heavy stam won't be able to keep pace with the DoT meta.

    so med stamDK is better than heavy?

    that'll take 2 sec to apply a DoT and see all of us melt like ice cream in the Caribbean within 5 sec.

    I don't think Vigor is nerfed compared to live, and i can trigger 7th on demand as a DK. and while i love my med build (see my sig), there's no way it can survive a DoT.

    i'm goin back to 7th and Spriggan allover again. (where's my Spriggan Rings, ZOS??? it's NEVER on the Golden Vendor!!)
    Praetorian Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Kaalgrontiid
    Scalebreaker 5.1.5 PvP build: 2H/2H The Plague Titan
  • Nerftheforums
    Nerftheforums
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    Davadin wrote: »
    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Even heavy stam won't be competitive next patch.

    Vigor will be worse than live. Momentum HoT is gone. All the good heavy sets were nerfed.

    This diminished version of heavy stam won't be able to keep pace with the DoT meta.

    so med stamDK is better than heavy?

    that'll take 2 sec to apply a DoT and see all of us melt like ice cream in the Caribbean within 5 sec.

    I don't think Vigor is nerfed compared to live, and i can trigger 7th on demand as a DK. and while i love my med build (see my sig), there's no way it can survive a DoT.

    i'm goin back to 7th and Spriggan allover again. (where's my Spriggan Rings, ZOS??? it's NEVER on the Golden Vendor!!)

    Unfortunately opinions don't mean *** when talking about math 🤔
  • TheHsN
    TheHsN
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    Just Revert all Rally and Vigor Changes ZOS please we do not ask you for balance again:)))

    as the main magsorce, I KISS CURSE you for vigor and Rally
    Plays:
    Magicka SORC - PvE/PvP
    Stamina NB - PvE/PvP
    Magicka NB - PvE/PvP
    Magicka Templar - PvE
    Stamina Templar - PvP
    Magicka DK - PvE
    Stamina DK - PvE
  • SenpaiNFT
    SenpaiNFT
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    TheHsN wrote: »
    Just Revert all Rally and Vigor Changes ZOS please we do not ask you for balance again:)))

    as the main magsorce, I KISS CURSE you for vigor and Rally

    Kiss curse?
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    SenpaiNFT wrote: »
    the medium armor spec, which looked to finally be viable again in Cyrodiil at the beginning of PTS, is now yet again DEAD on any class that is not Stamblade.

    What makes you think stamblade has it any better? Unless you wanna be a ganker with snipe and cloak as your every second skill, stamblade is no better off then any other class. Gankbuilds are poo to play. Stamplar can atleast purge dots, stamblade can supress them for 3s (maybe) per cast.

    Altmer Sorceror, magicka
    Bosmer Nightblade, stamina.
    Imperial Templar, stamina
    Redguard Warden, stamina

    Aldmeri Dominion!
    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Stellarvorous
    Stellarvorous
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    Maybe im alone in this as a stamn but im not actually dreading tomrrows patch I don't rely on forward momentums heal I don't spam vigor I don't run in 5 piece heavy or spam bleeds/dots and ofc I don't play a nightblade clinging to cloak

    If your stamn and you fall into 1 of the categories above fear not Zos has upgraded their crown crates with some shiny new tin foil hats so yal can scream the sky is falling as you run around frantically >:)


    All you heavy armor stamn specs have only your selves to blame with this with your constant 1vX videos showing you cheesing down a bunch of potatos in towers and you decided to record it and put your builds in the description so when zos looks at what to nerf they know exactly what sets are going to change.

    Naturally your welcome to disagree with me about it but it changes nothing the patch is still coming your reign is over.

    Final Form Mr Potato Head
  • SenpaiNFT
    SenpaiNFT
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    olsborg wrote: »
    SenpaiNFT wrote: »
    the medium armor spec, which looked to finally be viable again in Cyrodiil at the beginning of PTS, is now yet again DEAD on any class that is not Stamblade.

    What makes you think stamblade has it any better? Unless you wanna be a ganker with snipe and cloak as your every second skill, stamblade is no better off then any other class. Gankbuilds are poo to play. Stamplar can atleast purge dots, stamblade can supress them for 3s (maybe) per cast.

    Stamplar can purge, only for things to get reapplied, and not be able to purge again. People often overrate purify, a simple light attack rending combo can put 5 things on you from one person alone, play stamplar and look at your combat metrics report to see the things you’re purging off of you.

    Stamblade can cloak when low health, ignore every single dot on them, heal back up using vigor rally etc, then come back out of cloak with full health to deal with the dots. Every good player knows Stamblade is the only class that fares in Medium armor.
  • Lokey0024
    Lokey0024
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    Best parts going to be every 1vX player catching 20 DoTs immediately, be it a Stam or mag version
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    Lokey0024 wrote: »
    Best parts going to be every 1vX player catching 20 DoTs immediately, be it a Stam or mag version

    Yes. ZOS keeps giving more power to the zergblobs. Why is it lagging again..?
    Altmer Sorceror, magicka
    Bosmer Nightblade, stamina.
    Imperial Templar, stamina
    Redguard Warden, stamina

    Aldmeri Dominion!
    PC EU
    PvP only
  • Saril_Durzam
    Saril_Durzam
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    Whats the prob on using HA on pvp? MA gives both dmg and survability with 5.1.3 Vigor, it was OP and it was good not to have it corrected that way. Its not a nerf as it never went live, btw.

    Now, HA is meta for both mag and stam. LA and MA for more glassy cannons. I think it´s fair. With Vigor as it was, MA had everything. Now you have to choose between damage and survability, same as magicka.
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Maybe im alone in this as a stamn but im not actually dreading tomrrows patch I don't rely on forward momentums heal I don't spam vigor I don't run in 5 piece heavy or spam bleeds/dots and ofc I don't play a nightblade clinging to cloak

    If your stamn and you fall into 1 of the categories above fear not Zos has upgraded their crown crates with some shiny new tin foil hats so yal can scream the sky is falling as you run around frantically >:)


    All you heavy armor stamn specs have only your selves to blame with this with your constant 1vX videos showing you cheesing down a bunch of potatos in towers and you decided to record it and put your builds in the description so when zos looks at what to nerf they know exactly what sets are going to change.

    Naturally your welcome to disagree with me about it but it changes nothing the patch is still coming your reign is over.

    Please dear god people stop talking about spamming vigor. Also this is probably why you’re not worried about tomorrow’s patch lol.
  • Stellarvorous
    Stellarvorous
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    @Vapirko The perk of being able to make my own ideas and adapt when I need to has allowed me to sleep at night when patches like this drop you wont see me panicking about what happens when the patch drops.


    And while your welcome to ask people to stop talking about vigor spam I just wouldn't actually expect it to happen.


    Far as the reasoning of specifically why im not worried about the patch in general I listed that in my statement earlier all those "playstyles" Some would label crutches but said chosen play styles are not anything I personally use or need as thus I can do without because I just about always have.


    In closing I don't intend to edit this bait as I want to see it and understand my feelings on it so without further ado.

    All those folks combing the forums making thread after thread about these changes are bad and their threating to quit because their mains wont be as strong or they wont be able to 1vX a bunch of random potatos in a tower with the same ease as before im not laughing with you Im laughing At you cheers B) .

    I await the action of the forum mods
    Final Form Mr Potato Head
  • ATomiX69
    ATomiX69
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    Doesnt matter what the 4th iteration of PTS did to the game, because what will happen today with the patch is a completely different story.
    Wouldnt be ESO if there werent drastic shadow changes whenever the patch hits the live servers.
    Edited by ATomiX69 on August 12, 2019 7:35AM
    smurf account
    got banned on main forum account for no reason OkayChamp
    world 3rd immortal redeemer (22.02.18) btw.
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    @Vapirko The perk of being able to make my own ideas and adapt when I need to has allowed me to sleep at night when patches like this drop you wont see me panicking about what happens when the patch drops.


    And while your welcome to ask people to stop talking about vigor spam I just wouldn't actually expect it to happen.


    Far as the reasoning of specifically why im not worried about the patch in general I listed that in my statement earlier all those "playstyles" Some would label crutches but said chosen play styles are not anything I personally use or need as thus I can do without because I just about always have.


    In closing I don't intend to edit this bait as I want to see it and understand my feelings on it so without further ado.

    All those folks combing the forums making thread after thread about these changes are bad and their threating to quit because their mains wont be as strong or they wont be able to 1vX a bunch of random potatos in a tower with the same ease as before im not laughing with you Im laughing At you cheers B) .

    I await the action of the forum mods

    Dude you actually can’t spam vigor, it does nothing. So it’s all well and good to talk up your totally free and unique play style when you don’t really get how it works. But yeah good luck to you. When you’re getting 1vXd in a tower I won’t be laughing with you, I’ll be laughing at you.

    Also just lol at the people who try to label 1vXers as crutch garbage players. It’s just too funny. Nothing says I’m no good at playing this game like trying to denounce 1vXers.
    Edited by Vapirko on August 12, 2019 7:46AM
  • StShoot
    StShoot
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    We have nothing to do but adapt. At least stamina users didnt have dodge rolls nerfed,

    Dodge rolls have been already nerfed a while ago. (In Murkmire.)

    didnt they add 1 ms casttime for dodgeroles ? that will feel like a 10 second cast time with all the lags going on atm xD
  • ambitionzcs
    ambitionzcs
    Soul Shriven
    Maybe im alone in this as a stamn but im not actually dreading tomrrows patch I don't rely on forward momentums heal I don't spam vigor I don't run in 5 piece heavy or spam bleeds/dots and ofc I don't play a nightblade clinging to cloak

    If your stamn and you fall into 1 of the categories above fear not Zos has upgraded their crown crates with some shiny new tin foil hats so yal can scream the sky is falling as you run around frantically >:)


    All you heavy armor stamn specs have only your selves to blame with this with your constant 1vX videos showing you cheesing down a bunch of potatos in towers and you decided to record it and put your builds in the description so when zos looks at what to nerf they know exactly what sets are going to change.

    Naturally your welcome to disagree with me about it but it changes nothing the patch is still coming your reign is over.

    My reign will be over when I'm dead. They killed stam heals. Back to the real world for me. Only played because an injury but I'm good now so back to sparring for real. Y'all enjoy this pointless game. Just think of it, ur not gonna go up to a girl and be like yo check my elder scrolls account out. If your in school drop this and start wrestling or do some type of sport and I promise your life will change for the better. This game will isolate you from others.
  • Solace1981
    Maybe im alone in this as a stamn but im not actually dreading tomrrows patch I don't rely on forward momentums heal I don't spam vigor I don't run in 5 piece heavy or spam bleeds/dots and ofc I don't play a nightblade clinging to cloak

    If your stamn and you fall into 1 of the categories above fear not Zos has upgraded their crown crates with some shiny new tin foil hats so yal can scream the sky is falling as you run around frantically >:)


    All you heavy armor stamn specs have only your selves to blame with this with your constant 1vX videos showing you cheesing down a bunch of potatos in towers and you decided to record it and put your builds in the description so when zos looks at what to nerf they know exactly what sets are going to change.

    Naturally your welcome to disagree with me about it but it changes nothing the patch is still coming your reign is over.

    My reign will be over when I'm dead. They killed stam heals. Back to the real world for me. Only played because an injury but I'm good now so back to sparring for real. Y'all enjoy this pointless game. Just think of it, ur not gonna go up to a girl and be like yo check my elder scrolls account out. If your in school drop this and start wrestling or do some type of sport and I promise your life will change for the better. This game will isolate you from others.

    Wtf does this have to do with anything in this thread? You spar and like wrestling? We get it, you're a real tough guy.
  • Lokey0024
    Lokey0024
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    Solace1981 wrote: »
    Maybe im alone in this as a stamn but im not actually dreading tomrrows patch I don't rely on forward momentums heal I don't spam vigor I don't run in 5 piece heavy or spam bleeds/dots and ofc I don't play a nightblade clinging to cloak

    If your stamn and you fall into 1 of the categories above fear not Zos has upgraded their crown crates with some shiny new tin foil hats so yal can scream the sky is falling as you run around frantically >:)


    All you heavy armor stamn specs have only your selves to blame with this with your constant 1vX videos showing you cheesing down a bunch of potatos in towers and you decided to record it and put your builds in the description so when zos looks at what to nerf they know exactly what sets are going to change.

    Naturally your welcome to disagree with me about it but it changes nothing the patch is still coming your reign is over.

    My reign will be over when I'm dead. They killed stam heals. Back to the real world for me. Only played because an injury but I'm good now so back to sparring for real. Y'all enjoy this pointless game. Just think of it, ur not gonna go up to a girl and be like yo check my elder scrolls account out. If your in school drop this and start wrestling or do some type of sport and I promise your life will change for the better. This game will isolate you from others.

    Wtf does this have to do with anything in this thread? You spar and like wrestling? We get it, you're a real tough guy.

    Meltdowns. Meltdowns everywhere!
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Maybe im alone in this as a stamn but im not actually dreading tomrrows patch I don't rely on forward momentums heal I don't spam vigor I don't run in 5 piece heavy or spam bleeds/dots and ofc I don't play a nightblade clinging to cloak

    If your stamn and you fall into 1 of the categories above fear not Zos has upgraded their crown crates with some shiny new tin foil hats so yal can scream the sky is falling as you run around frantically >:)


    All you heavy armor stamn specs have only your selves to blame with this with your constant 1vX videos showing you cheesing down a bunch of potatos in towers and you decided to record it and put your builds in the description so when zos looks at what to nerf they know exactly what sets are going to change.

    Naturally your welcome to disagree with me about it but it changes nothing the patch is still coming your reign is over.

    My reign will be over when I'm dead. They killed stam heals. Back to the real world for me. Only played because an injury but I'm good now so back to sparring for real. Y'all enjoy this pointless game. Just think of it, ur not gonna go up to a girl and be like yo check my elder scrolls account out. If your in school drop this and start wrestling or do some type of sport and I promise your life will change for the better. This game will isolate you from others.

    I think majority of ESO players are in age category where "girl" will be most interested in checking your bank account :)

    Anyway, I agree with you that MMORPG is bad hobby and also btw vigor nerf was reverted to buff (tooltip 20k in no-CP on balanced build), so now you can ditch ESO and go to the gym due to your resolve and not because ZOS forced you to QQ. No joking
    Restart your router
  • Tolino
    Tolino
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    Vigor V5.1.5 realy ZOS whar are you doing????

    igor Base elsweyr: 100/5s (20 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor elsweyr: 130/5s ( 26 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor V 5.1.0: 185/5s (37 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor V 5.1.4: 106/4s (26.64 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor Scalebreacker: 152 (38 pro Tick)


    The heal/Tick is now even better as with 5.1.0! and 5.1.0 was OP!


    Ps. My Main is Stamsorc.
    Edited by Tolino on August 12, 2019 3:32PM
    Stamina Zauberer: Toljno
    Magicka Hüter: Wa-Uller

  • Ajax_22
    Ajax_22
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    Tolino wrote: »
    Vigor V5.1.5 realy ZOS whar are you doing????

    igor Base elsweyr: 100/5s (20 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor elsweyr: 130/5s ( 26 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor V 5.1.0: 185/5s (37 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor V 5.1.4: 106/4s (26.64 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor Scalebreacker: 152 (38 pro Tick)


    The heal/Tick is now even better as with 5.1.0! and 5.1.0 was OP!


    Ps. My Main is Stamsorc.

    Can I get a translator please?
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Ajax_22 wrote: »
    Tolino wrote: »
    Vigor V5.1.5 realy ZOS whar are you doing????

    igor Base elsweyr: 100/5s (20 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor elsweyr: 130/5s ( 26 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor V 5.1.0: 185/5s (37 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor V 5.1.4: 106/4s (26.64 pro Tick)

    Resolving Vigor Scalebreacker: 152 (38 pro Tick)


    The heal/Tick is now even better as with 5.1.0! and 5.1.0 was OP!


    Ps. My Main is Stamsorc.

    Can I get a translator please?

    Tooltip on resolving matches RR right now.
    Restart your router
  • starlizard70ub17_ESO
    starlizard70ub17_ESO
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    Davadin wrote: »
    Interesting.

    Was Heavy nerfed in any way since the beginning of PTS? Was it just Medium that got buffed?

    coz with DoT going full power now, stam build will need all the resistance we can get....

    Bah, do I need to bring up my 7th legion armors again?

    No, because they nerfed 7th legion (and ravengers) to the point of being useless.
    "We have found a cave, but I don't think there are warm fires and friendly faces inside."
  • Saril_Durzam
    Saril_Durzam
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    Yesterday i faced with my stamden some mag guy who tried to dot me to death. Funny thing is, if you do first rotations on dots, the DPS of them isnt too high. I just focused fire on him. He went to defensive, used a shield but seemed to be with few magicka coz he did try to dodge away and few more. I killed him. His DPS was low at the beginning while my DDs were high DPS, meaning he was going down much faster than me.

    He died (he wasnt a potato) and i survived thanks to Vigor and a pot but i think Vigor´s would be enough.

    Afterwards i faced a magblade. He dotted me, he cloacked. Couldn´t got him close , he reappered and dotted me again. I had to flee (he didnt expect so i think i got range) but was badly wounded when i was destroyed by another player.

    Actually, this situation could be very similar to others i had before this patch. Didnt feel dots were overpowered nor were destroying me. Degeneration ticked for a bit more than 1,5k which looks fine (my toons degeneration does 24k, which will be 12k in Pvp, in 12 seconds, so 2k per tick. Taking resistances and penetration of the guy, i guess it finally got reduced a 25% for getting a 1,5k. Wild guess). Sure you will end up getting two or three but the DPS isnt that high, if you have good burst, you will kill other players first.
  • Saril_Durzam
    Saril_Durzam
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    After doing more BGs, was checking numbers... most dots dont tick on me for more than 1k. Usually 700-800. Only one that ticks more is Reach, i think. I play a medium armor with 18k resists, buffed, so not really tanky.

    Tbh, dots are meh. Being killing dotters with DDs while they waste time trying to slowly killing me.

    That is on BGs. Didnt try Cyro yet.
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