jcm2606 wrote: »

JWillCHS wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

heavy will end up being gutted down the road when Zenimax inevitably thinks that everyone's running heavy because heavy is OP, when everyone's running heavy because it's the only way you can enjoy PVP.

Thank you for clarifying. My thought was that this may not be true, insofar as it's not true of the role of the armor weights in PvE. It's understood only a few players are in Heavy, it has nothing to do with what's OP or not, it is how things are balanced.

How viable/valuable certain armour weights are compared to other weights differ completely between PvE and PvP. You can afford to build for optimal damage in PvE, because you (ideally) have other players carrying your survival (tanks are keeping you from taking too much damage, healers are keeping your health topped up for the inevitable damage you do end up taking).

In PvP, however, you can't afford to because you can't rely on other players to carry your survival. In a coordinated group, you may have a healer to keep your health topped up, but you still need to build for mitigation to reduce the damage you take, and you also need to consider moments where the healer can't heal you, whether it be they died, or you just got separated. Outside of coordinated groups, you also need to build for self-healing in addition to the mitigation.

With that in mind, while you really only see heavy being used on tanks in PvE, PvP is a very common weight for both tanks and stamina damage dealers in PvP, because of the natural mitigation offered by heavy, in addition to the health and healing bonuses, and the fact that you don't need to give up much to build for damage in heavy. Medium offers more damage and sustain, but you can get that damage and sustain in heavy, while also being tankier.

Consider this when reading the Scalebreaker patch notes next week. Damage from DOT's has gone up, while the effectiveness of protective (allows you to build for resists while in medium) and Vigor have gone down. Medium already forced players to make the choice between damage/sustain and survival, and it just had two of the survival tools it used nerfed, while damage has gone up.

I don't think people will run medium when they'll need to invest so heavily into survival, just to stand a chance against everybody else. Light may be able to survive with the buffs to resto, but I think we'll see heavy become even more prevalent than it already is next patch, simply because it isn't worth it to build around medium anymore.

As I said, in my opinion, each weight should have its own viable form of survival. Light should build around shields to mitigate damage similarly to heavy at the cost of resources and other skill casts, medium should build around dodging and generally being hard to hit to prevent damage being taken in the first place, heavy should build around passive mitigation and healing. Heavy should be the strongest passive survival weight, but light and medium should have their own forms of survival that can be just as strong as heavy, when put in the right hands. Of course with counters in place, to make it a fair fight.

So do people not want to use sets that mitigate damage with the 5 piece bonus or is that not enough.

People don't want to feel like they have to gimp themselves to have a chance in a fight, which you are by running a defensive 5-piece set, since you're giving up either damage or sustain, especially in non-CP. They especially don't want to when they feel that they should be given that chance as a baseline, through the defensive tools of their respective armour weight.

When someone has to run a defensive 5-piece set just to compete with heavy, while heavy allows them to run 1/2 damage sets and maybe a sustain set thanks to the natural mitigation and bonuses to max health and healing, why would they run light or medium?

We're not talking about an outnumbered situation, we're not talking about 1vX'ing and crutching on dodge/shields alone. We're talking about something as simple as a 1v1. When you have a few DOT's ticking for 1-2k damage each second (Entropy, Soul Trap, Twin Slashes, Carve, Reach, axe bleeds, any class DOT's), on top of any available burst damage, how are you meant to survive with a shield that costs 3.5-4k magicka, while only absorbing 4-5k damage? How are you meant to survive with a HOT that only heals you for 1-2k each second (one HOT, versus 2 or more DOT's hitting just as hard), while dodge roll is virtually RNG with how unreliable it is, and the HOT on Momentum was removed? And that's just against 1 player.

Note that I'm not saying heavy needs a nerf, I'm saying that light/medium need a buff.

Mechanically, shields and dodge are both fine. Shields require a fairly steep investment of resources, and lock the player out of casting other skills when they're put under pressure and forced to spam a shield and rotate heals to survive. Dodge require another fairly steep investment of resources that gets progressively worse and worse the more you do it, and forces the player to be on the move constantly, preventing them from pressuring their opponent too much. Both require active input, compared to heavy's passive mitigation and healing bonus.

They both need help, however. The cost of shields needs to be reduced a tad, and the size needs to be bumped up, in tandem with the removal of shield stacking to prevent rotating two or more shields every few seconds. Whatever Zenimax did to dodge back during Murkmire needs to be reverted.

Davadin wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

Even heavy stam won't be competitive next patch.

Vigor will be worse than live. Momentum HoT is gone. All the good heavy sets were nerfed.

This diminished version of heavy stam won't be able to keep pace with the DoT meta.

so med stamDK is better than heavy?

that'll take 2 sec to apply a DoT and see all of us melt like ice cream in the Caribbean within 5 sec.

I don't think Vigor is nerfed compared to live, and i can trigger 7th on demand as a DK. and while i love my med build (see my sig), there's no way it can survive a DoT.

i'm goin back to 7th and Spriggan allover again. (where's my Spriggan Rings, ZOS??? it's NEVER on the Golden Vendor!!)

Stellarvorous wrote: »

@Vapirko The perk of being able to make my own ideas and adapt when I need to has allowed me to sleep at night when patches like this drop you wont see me panicking about what happens when the patch drops.


And while your welcome to ask people to stop talking about vigor spam I just wouldn't actually expect it to happen.


Far as the reasoning of specifically why im not worried about the patch in general I listed that in my statement earlier all those "playstyles" Some would label crutches but said chosen play styles are not anything I personally use or need as thus I can do without because I just about always have.


In closing I don't intend to edit this bait as I want to see it and understand my feelings on it so without further ado.

All those folks combing the forums making thread after thread about these changes are bad and their threating to quit because their mains wont be as strong or they wont be able to 1vX a bunch of random potatos in a tower with the same ease as before im not laughing with you Im laughing At you cheers .

I await the action of the forum mods

Stellarvorous wrote: »

Maybe im alone in this as a stamn but im not actually dreading tomrrows patch I don't rely on forward momentums heal I don't spam vigor I don't run in 5 piece heavy or spam bleeds/dots and ofc I don't play a nightblade clinging to cloak

If your stamn and you fall into 1 of the categories above fear not Zos has upgraded their crown crates with some shiny new tin foil hats so yal can scream the sky is falling as you run around frantically


All you heavy armor stamn specs have only your selves to blame with this with your constant 1vX videos showing you cheesing down a bunch of potatos in towers and you decided to record it and put your builds in the description so when zos looks at what to nerf they know exactly what sets are going to change.

Naturally your welcome to disagree with me about it but it changes nothing the patch is still coming your reign is over.

Solace1981 wrote: »

ambitionzcs wrote: »

Stellarvorous wrote: »

Maybe im alone in this as a stamn but im not actually dreading tomrrows patch I don't rely on forward momentums heal I don't spam vigor I don't run in 5 piece heavy or spam bleeds/dots and ofc I don't play a nightblade clinging to cloak

If your stamn and you fall into 1 of the categories above fear not Zos has upgraded their crown crates with some shiny new tin foil hats so yal can scream the sky is falling as you run around frantically


All you heavy armor stamn specs have only your selves to blame with this with your constant 1vX videos showing you cheesing down a bunch of potatos in towers and you decided to record it and put your builds in the description so when zos looks at what to nerf they know exactly what sets are going to change.

Naturally your welcome to disagree with me about it but it changes nothing the patch is still coming your reign is over.

My reign will be over when I'm dead. They killed stam heals. Back to the real world for me. Only played because an injury but I'm good now so back to sparring for real. Y'all enjoy this pointless game. Just think of it, ur not gonna go up to a girl and be like yo check my elder scrolls account out. If your in school drop this and start wrestling or do some type of sport and I promise your life will change for the better. This game will isolate you from others.

Wtf does this have to do with anything in this thread? You spar and like wrestling? We get it, you're a real tough guy.