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Vigor on 5.1.4 has re-instated a gimped Heavy Meta for all Stam Builds.

SenpaiNFT
SenpaiNFT
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Title says it all. Was on PTS dueling on Stam earlier and was, legit, the only Stam player dueling and I counted 8 total Magicka characters of varying classes. The damage taken:healing done ratio in medium armor is far too high on PTS to the point that the medium armor spec, which looked to finally be viable again in Cyrodiil at the beginning of PTS, is now yet again DEAD on any class that is not Stamblade. I'm not sure what the motive is for bringing a nerfed heavy meta back into fruition, while Mag heals remained untouched and a Dot meta ensues, but I hope ZOS understands just how bad they screwed Stam builds with this one.
Edited by SenpaiNFT on August 7, 2019 1:01AM
  • Davadin
    Davadin
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    Interesting.

    Was Heavy nerfed in any way since the beginning of PTS? Was it just Medium that got buffed?

    coz with DoT going full power now, stam build will need all the resistance we can get....

    Bah, do I need to bring up my 7th legion armors again?
    Praetorian Davadin Bloodstrake - Nord Dragon Knight - PC NA - Kaalgrontiid
    Scalebreaker 5.1.5 PvP build: 2H/2H The Plague Titan
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    Remember, that we have new Onslaught... (as if this ulti required a buff lol). So idk if stacking as much resistance as posible is good idea.

    The point is, it gives you full pen for 12 seconds. Can be hard to do anything to counter it, if some one will use it as an opener and hit (example from stealth or invisibility potion) and then combo it with gap closer & AOE spam.
    btw. Does Dual Wield Whirlwind skill morph still has build in execute ? Can be pretty devastating with full pen... :o
  • MartiniDaniels
    MartiniDaniels
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    Remember, that we have new Onslaught... (as if this ulti required a buff lol). So idk if stacking as much resistance as posible is good idea.

    The point is, it gives you full pen for 12 seconds. Can be hard to do anything to counter it, if some one will use it as an opener and hit (example from stealth or invisibility potion) and then combo it with gap closer & AOE spam.
    btw. Does Dual Wield Whirlwind skill morph still has build in execute ? Can be pretty devastating with full pen... :o

    Thinking of different builds, I am starting to realize that some weird semi-hybrids with restoration staff for RR and 2H for onslaught will be a way to go.
    Restart your router
  • katorga
    katorga
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    Remember, that we have new Onslaught... (as if this ulti required a buff lol). So idk if stacking as much resistance as posible is good idea.

    The point is, it gives you full pen for 12 seconds. Can be hard to do anything to counter it, if some one will use it as an opener and hit (example from stealth or invisibility potion) and then combo it with gap closer & AOE spam.
    btw. Does Dual Wield Whirlwind skill morph still has build in execute ? Can be pretty devastating with full pen... :o

    Thinking of different builds, I am starting to realize that some weird semi-hybrids with restoration staff for RR and 2H for onslaught will be a way to go.

    Thinking along the same lines. You don't need to stack off-resources nearly as high if all you are looking to do is get a heal to a certain level.

    Defiles are going to be absolutely brutal in a dot vs. healing meta.

  • Aedaryl
    Aedaryl
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    katorga wrote: »
    Remember, that we have new Onslaught... (as if this ulti required a buff lol). So idk if stacking as much resistance as posible is good idea.

    The point is, it gives you full pen for 12 seconds. Can be hard to do anything to counter it, if some one will use it as an opener and hit (example from stealth or invisibility potion) and then combo it with gap closer & AOE spam.
    btw. Does Dual Wield Whirlwind skill morph still has build in execute ? Can be pretty devastating with full pen... :o

    Thinking of different builds, I am starting to realize that some weird semi-hybrids with restoration staff for RR and 2H for onslaught will be a way to go.

    Thinking along the same lines. You don't need to stack off-resources nearly as high if all you are looking to do is get a heal to a certain level.

    Defiles are going to be absolutely brutal in a dot vs. healing meta.

    Where is defile ?

    Minor defile from snipe maybe, but 15% defile is not a problem when healing modifiers + crits are there.

    The main defile source was reverbatingbashtard applying major defile, and it's gone.

    Only few set bring defile and with a low uptime.
  • Crixus8000
    Crixus8000
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    Vapirko wrote: »
    I’m kinda pissed lol. ZOS finally buffs shuffle and then turns around and completely *** medium armor. So much for the best year ever and the shiny new combat team. Whatever method they had for making changes is still in place. Although honestly I’m not sure that even heavy will be any good against magicka builds and dots this patch.

    It will be a hard patch to survive in. Heavy offers a bit higher healing and more resists but it's not like that will matter much imo now that heals have been heavily nerfed and onslaught exists.





  • katorga
    katorga
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    Aedaryl wrote: »
    katorga wrote: »
    Remember, that we have new Onslaught... (as if this ulti required a buff lol). So idk if stacking as much resistance as posible is good idea.

    The point is, it gives you full pen for 12 seconds. Can be hard to do anything to counter it, if some one will use it as an opener and hit (example from stealth or invisibility potion) and then combo it with gap closer & AOE spam.
    btw. Does Dual Wield Whirlwind skill morph still has build in execute ? Can be pretty devastating with full pen... :o

    Thinking of different builds, I am starting to realize that some weird semi-hybrids with restoration staff for RR and 2H for onslaught will be a way to go.

    Thinking along the same lines. You don't need to stack off-resources nearly as high if all you are looking to do is get a heal to a certain level.

    Defiles are going to be absolutely brutal in a dot vs. healing meta.

    Where is defile ?

    Minor defile from snipe maybe, but 15% defile is not a problem when healing modifiers + crits are there.

    The main defile source was reverbatingbashtard applying major defile, and it's gone.

    Only few set bring defile and with a low uptime.

    That is why it will be brutal no one will be ready for it. A couple of classes still have it.

    To be honest, I think light armor is going to hurt this patch too. Probably see a lot of heavy magicka builds.
    Edited by katorga on August 7, 2019 12:03AM
  • J18696
    J18696
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    Davadin wrote: »
    Interesting.

    Was Heavy nerfed in any way since the beginning of PTS? Was it just Medium that got buffed?

    coz with DoT going full power now, stam build will need all the resistance we can get....

    Bah, do I need to bring up my 7th legion armors again?

    Medium got nerfed because it's lost alot of healing with the vigor nerf and heavy got nerfed because of fury ravager 7th ect getting changed
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  • SenpaiNFT
    SenpaiNFT
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    Hopefully they’ll revert the changes come live.
  • LeHarrt91
    LeHarrt91
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    Yeah was looking forward to using Medium Armor again, but the reduction in time and healing killed that hope.
    PS4 NA 1100+ CP
    Have played all classes.
  • J18696
    J18696
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    2 IQ changes
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    Pride Stam Dk lvl 50 Æternā Stam Temp lvl 50 Le Pride Stam Warden lvl 50


  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    katorga wrote: »
    To be honest, I think light armor is going to hurt this patch too. Probably see a lot of heavy magicka builds.

    Could this be balance from an unexpected approach? What are your thoughts on why this is necessarily not a good thing? On why it is not ok that Heavy be the preference for most players in Cyrodiil, that only the most elite ninjas, samurais, wizards and monks can pull off Medium and Light?

    Note in a 12 man PvE team, 1/6 of the team is usually in Heavy, 5/6 are usually not.

    The problem with this being inverted in PvP, where only 1/6 are not in Heavy, is what exactly, that TTK will be too long and it leads to excessively tiresome fights? Or that it demands too much adaptation for the majority of players accustomed to playing as a DD in Medium or Light in PvE?

    Xbox NA AD / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Urzigurumash
    Urzigurumash
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    jcm2606 wrote: »
    heavy will end up being gutted down the road when Zenimax inevitably thinks that everyone's running heavy because heavy is OP, when everyone's running heavy because it's the only way you can enjoy PVP.

    Thank you for clarifying. My thought was that this may not be true, insofar as it's not true of the role of the armor weights in PvE. It's understood only a few players are in Heavy, it has nothing to do with what's OP or not, it is how things are balanced.

    Xbox NA AD / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Canned_Apples
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    You mean they don't already?

    Every build I've seen since I started playing uses Fury and/or Seventh- if not both, then they pair one with spriggans or bone pirate.

    Vigor changes nothing.
  • JWillCHS
    JWillCHS
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    jcm2606 wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    heavy will end up being gutted down the road when Zenimax inevitably thinks that everyone's running heavy because heavy is OP, when everyone's running heavy because it's the only way you can enjoy PVP.

    Thank you for clarifying. My thought was that this may not be true, insofar as it's not true of the role of the armor weights in PvE. It's understood only a few players are in Heavy, it has nothing to do with what's OP or not, it is how things are balanced.

    How viable/valuable certain armour weights are compared to other weights differ completely between PvE and PvP. You can afford to build for optimal damage in PvE, because you (ideally) have other players carrying your survival (tanks are keeping you from taking too much damage, healers are keeping your health topped up for the inevitable damage you do end up taking).

    In PvP, however, you can't afford to because you can't rely on other players to carry your survival. In a coordinated group, you may have a healer to keep your health topped up, but you still need to build for mitigation to reduce the damage you take, and you also need to consider moments where the healer can't heal you, whether it be they died, or you just got separated. Outside of coordinated groups, you also need to build for self-healing in addition to the mitigation.

    With that in mind, while you really only see heavy being used on tanks in PvE, PvP is a very common weight for both tanks and stamina damage dealers in PvP, because of the natural mitigation offered by heavy, in addition to the health and healing bonuses, and the fact that you don't need to give up much to build for damage in heavy. Medium offers more damage and sustain, but you can get that damage and sustain in heavy, while also being tankier.

    Consider this when reading the Scalebreaker patch notes next week. Damage from DOT's has gone up, while the effectiveness of protective (allows you to build for resists while in medium) and Vigor have gone down. Medium already forced players to make the choice between damage/sustain and survival, and it just had two of the survival tools it used nerfed, while damage has gone up.

    I don't think people will run medium when they'll need to invest so heavily into survival, just to stand a chance against everybody else. Light may be able to survive with the buffs to resto, but I think we'll see heavy become even more prevalent than it already is next patch, simply because it isn't worth it to build around medium anymore.

    As I said, in my opinion, each weight should have its own viable form of survival. Light should build around shields to mitigate damage similarly to heavy at the cost of resources and other skill casts, medium should build around dodging and generally being hard to hit to prevent damage being taken in the first place, heavy should build around passive mitigation and healing. Heavy should be the strongest passive survival weight, but light and medium should have their own forms of survival that can be just as strong as heavy, when put in the right hands. Of course with counters in place, to make it a fair fight.

    So do people not want to use sets that mitigate damage with the 5 piece bonus or is that not enough.
    Edited by JWillCHS on August 7, 2019 11:39AM
  • Vizirith
    Vizirith
    Soul Shriven
    Ttk in this game was already pretty low and all this does is make it even lower.

    Corrosive armor is overperforming? Let’s make it only work on direct damage and then add it to an ult everybody can get, make it an aoe and to top it off it’s fairly cheap.

    Vigor is overperforming? Let’s make it so that solo/smallscale players have to take the self heal only morph, making small scale significantly harder and then nerf the healing so that a healing modifier is absolutely needed. You aren’t a stamdk with major mending, increased healing recieved, and access to minor vitality or a stamplar with minor mending and the cheapest purge? Well better be stamwarden with stam heals, because stamsorc and stamblade with no healing bonuses at all will be real fun. And no the 3% healing done on whatever bar has leeching strikes will not save you.

    We need a medium version of buffer of the swift, at least then we’d be able to possibly survive magicka onslaught builds.
  • Saril_Durzam
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    jcm2606 wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    heavy will end up being gutted down the road when Zenimax inevitably thinks that everyone's running heavy because heavy is OP, when everyone's running heavy because it's the only way you can enjoy PVP.

    Thank you for clarifying. My thought was that this may not be true, insofar as it's not true of the role of the armor weights in PvE. It's understood only a few players are in Heavy, it has nothing to do with what's OP or not, it is how things are balanced.

    How viable/valuable certain armour weights are compared to other weights differ completely between PvE and PvP. You can afford to build for optimal damage in PvE, because you (ideally) have other players carrying your survival (tanks are keeping you from taking too much damage, healers are keeping your health topped up for the inevitable damage you do end up taking).

    In PvP, however, you can't afford to because you can't rely on other players to carry your survival. In a coordinated group, you may have a healer to keep your health topped up, but you still need to build for mitigation to reduce the damage you take, and you also need to consider moments where the healer can't heal you, whether it be they died, or you just got separated. Outside of coordinated groups, you also need to build for self-healing in addition to the mitigation.

    With that in mind, while you really only see heavy being used on tanks in PvE, PvP is a very common weight for both tanks and stamina damage dealers in PvP, because of the natural mitigation offered by heavy, in addition to the health and healing bonuses, and the fact that you don't need to give up much to build for damage in heavy. Medium offers more damage and sustain, but you can get that damage and sustain in heavy, while also being tankier.

    Consider this when reading the Scalebreaker patch notes next week. Damage from DOT's has gone up, while the effectiveness of protective (allows you to build for resists while in medium) and Vigor have gone down. Medium already forced players to make the choice between damage/sustain and survival, and it just had two of the survival tools it used nerfed, while damage has gone up.

    I don't think people will run medium when they'll need to invest so heavily into survival, just to stand a chance against everybody else. Light may be able to survive with the buffs to resto, but I think we'll see heavy become even more prevalent than it already is next patch, simply because it isn't worth it to build around medium anymore.

    As I said, in my opinion, each weight should have its own viable form of survival. Light should build around shields to mitigate damage similarly to heavy at the cost of resources and other skill casts, medium should build around dodging and generally being hard to hit to prevent damage being taken in the first place, heavy should build around passive mitigation and healing. Heavy should be the strongest passive survival weight, but light and medium should have their own forms of survival that can be just as strong as heavy, when put in the right hands. Of course with counters in place, to make it a fair fight.

    The idea of ZoS is that you will need a compromise between damage and survive; more uses of def ults (scarcely seen in PvP) and gear. That´s why Zos nerfs shields, healing skill used (Matriarch, power surge, etc...), redo VIgor buff changes, etc...

    We have nothing to do but adapt. At least stamina users didnt have dodge rolls nerfed, which is really the strong point of them in PvP, and still keep being most DPS stat in PvE. And considering all Heavy and Magicka changes, i feel Stamina is the true winner of this patch.
  • vesselwiththepestle
    vesselwiththepestle
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    We have nothing to do but adapt. At least stamina users didnt have dodge rolls nerfed,

    Dodge rolls have been already nerfed a while ago. (In Murkmire.)
    Edited by vesselwiththepestle on August 7, 2019 12:01PM
  • jcm2606
    jcm2606
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    JWillCHS wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    heavy will end up being gutted down the road when Zenimax inevitably thinks that everyone's running heavy because heavy is OP, when everyone's running heavy because it's the only way you can enjoy PVP.

    Thank you for clarifying. My thought was that this may not be true, insofar as it's not true of the role of the armor weights in PvE. It's understood only a few players are in Heavy, it has nothing to do with what's OP or not, it is how things are balanced.

    How viable/valuable certain armour weights are compared to other weights differ completely between PvE and PvP. You can afford to build for optimal damage in PvE, because you (ideally) have other players carrying your survival (tanks are keeping you from taking too much damage, healers are keeping your health topped up for the inevitable damage you do end up taking).

    In PvP, however, you can't afford to because you can't rely on other players to carry your survival. In a coordinated group, you may have a healer to keep your health topped up, but you still need to build for mitigation to reduce the damage you take, and you also need to consider moments where the healer can't heal you, whether it be they died, or you just got separated. Outside of coordinated groups, you also need to build for self-healing in addition to the mitigation.

    With that in mind, while you really only see heavy being used on tanks in PvE, PvP is a very common weight for both tanks and stamina damage dealers in PvP, because of the natural mitigation offered by heavy, in addition to the health and healing bonuses, and the fact that you don't need to give up much to build for damage in heavy. Medium offers more damage and sustain, but you can get that damage and sustain in heavy, while also being tankier.

    Consider this when reading the Scalebreaker patch notes next week. Damage from DOT's has gone up, while the effectiveness of protective (allows you to build for resists while in medium) and Vigor have gone down. Medium already forced players to make the choice between damage/sustain and survival, and it just had two of the survival tools it used nerfed, while damage has gone up.

    I don't think people will run medium when they'll need to invest so heavily into survival, just to stand a chance against everybody else. Light may be able to survive with the buffs to resto, but I think we'll see heavy become even more prevalent than it already is next patch, simply because it isn't worth it to build around medium anymore.

    As I said, in my opinion, each weight should have its own viable form of survival. Light should build around shields to mitigate damage similarly to heavy at the cost of resources and other skill casts, medium should build around dodging and generally being hard to hit to prevent damage being taken in the first place, heavy should build around passive mitigation and healing. Heavy should be the strongest passive survival weight, but light and medium should have their own forms of survival that can be just as strong as heavy, when put in the right hands. Of course with counters in place, to make it a fair fight.

    So do people not want to use sets that mitigate damage with the 5 piece bonus or is that not enough.

    People don't want to feel like they have to gimp themselves to have a chance in a fight, which you are by running a defensive 5-piece set, since you're giving up either damage or sustain, especially in non-CP. They especially don't want to when they feel that they should be given that chance as a baseline, through the defensive tools of their respective armour weight.

    When someone has to run a defensive 5-piece set just to compete with heavy, while heavy allows them to run 1/2 damage sets and maybe a sustain set thanks to the natural mitigation and bonuses to max health and healing, why would they run light or medium?

    We're not talking about an outnumbered situation, we're not talking about 1vX'ing and crutching on dodge/shields alone. We're talking about something as simple as a 1v1. When you have a few DOT's ticking for 1-2k damage each second (Entropy, Soul Trap, Twin Slashes, Carve, Reach, axe bleeds, any class DOT's), on top of any available burst damage, how are you meant to survive with a shield that costs 3.5-4k magicka, while only absorbing 4-5k damage? How are you meant to survive with a HOT that only heals you for 1-2k each second (one HOT, versus 2 or more DOT's hitting just as hard), while dodge roll is virtually RNG with how unreliable it is, and the HOT on Momentum was removed? And that's just against 1 player.

    Note that I'm not saying heavy needs a nerf, I'm saying that light/medium need a buff.

    Mechanically, shields and dodge are both fine. Shields require a fairly steep investment of resources, and lock the player out of casting other skills when they're put under pressure and forced to spam a shield and rotate heals to survive. Dodge require another fairly steep investment of resources that gets progressively worse and worse the more you do it, and forces the player to be on the move constantly, preventing them from pressuring their opponent too much. Both require active input, compared to heavy's passive mitigation and healing bonus.

    They both need help, however. The cost of shields needs to be reduced a tad, and the size needs to be bumped up, in tandem with the removal of shield stacking to prevent rotating two or more shields every few seconds. Whatever Zenimax did to dodge back during Murkmire needs to be reverted.
    @jcm2606 | PC NA | CP 1000+ | Stormproof | Boethia's Scythe
  • jcm2606
    jcm2606
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    jcm2606 wrote: »
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    heavy will end up being gutted down the road when Zenimax inevitably thinks that everyone's running heavy because heavy is OP, when everyone's running heavy because it's the only way you can enjoy PVP.

    Thank you for clarifying. My thought was that this may not be true, insofar as it's not true of the role of the armor weights in PvE. It's understood only a few players are in Heavy, it has nothing to do with what's OP or not, it is how things are balanced.

    How viable/valuable certain armour weights are compared to other weights differ completely between PvE and PvP. You can afford to build for optimal damage in PvE, because you (ideally) have other players carrying your survival (tanks are keeping you from taking too much damage, healers are keeping your health topped up for the inevitable damage you do end up taking).

    In PvP, however, you can't afford to because you can't rely on other players to carry your survival. In a coordinated group, you may have a healer to keep your health topped up, but you still need to build for mitigation to reduce the damage you take, and you also need to consider moments where the healer can't heal you, whether it be they died, or you just got separated. Outside of coordinated groups, you also need to build for self-healing in addition to the mitigation.

    With that in mind, while you really only see heavy being used on tanks in PvE, PvP is a very common weight for both tanks and stamina damage dealers in PvP, because of the natural mitigation offered by heavy, in addition to the health and healing bonuses, and the fact that you don't need to give up much to build for damage in heavy. Medium offers more damage and sustain, but you can get that damage and sustain in heavy, while also being tankier.

    Consider this when reading the Scalebreaker patch notes next week. Damage from DOT's has gone up, while the effectiveness of protective (allows you to build for resists while in medium) and Vigor have gone down. Medium already forced players to make the choice between damage/sustain and survival, and it just had two of the survival tools it used nerfed, while damage has gone up.

    I don't think people will run medium when they'll need to invest so heavily into survival, just to stand a chance against everybody else. Light may be able to survive with the buffs to resto, but I think we'll see heavy become even more prevalent than it already is next patch, simply because it isn't worth it to build around medium anymore.

    As I said, in my opinion, each weight should have its own viable form of survival. Light should build around shields to mitigate damage similarly to heavy at the cost of resources and other skill casts, medium should build around dodging and generally being hard to hit to prevent damage being taken in the first place, heavy should build around passive mitigation and healing. Heavy should be the strongest passive survival weight, but light and medium should have their own forms of survival that can be just as strong as heavy, when put in the right hands. Of course with counters in place, to make it a fair fight.

    The idea of ZoS is that you will need a compromise between damage and survive; more uses of def ults (scarcely seen in PvP) and gear. That´s why Zos nerfs shields, healing skill used (Matriarch, power surge, etc...), redo VIgor buff changes, etc...

    We have nothing to do but adapt. At least stamina users didnt have dodge rolls nerfed, which is really the strong point of them in PvP, and still keep being most DPS stat in PvE. And considering all Heavy and Magicka changes, i feel Stamina is the true winner of this patch.
    The idea of ZoS is that you will need a compromise between damage and survive

    The problem with that is how much you need to build for survival, just to stand a chance against the damage people can build for. Baseline damage in ESO is crazy high, TTK is insanely low, and it's getting even lower next patch when the defensive tools people used are being nerfed, while the offensive tools are being buffed. Look at my last comment, look at the 3rd paragraph, and just think about we're meant to deal with something like that.
    more uses of def ults (scarcely seen in PvP)

    I don't know what game you're playing, because defensive ults are fairly common in PvP. Pretty much every magicka build I run across, including my own, runs a defensive ult alongside their offensive ult, whether it be the resto ult, or an in-class defensive ult such as the goliath transformation, Remembrance, or Soul Siphon. Stamina builds are really the only ones that may get away with running 2 offensive ults, but even then, most I see run something like Undo or an in-class defensive ult.
    and gear

    Again, I'll point you to my last comment.
    At least stamina users didnt have dodge rolls nerfed, which is really the strong point of them in PvP,

    Dodge roll was unintentionally nerfed back during Murkmire when they tried to make it more intuitive when dodging projectiles, but broke it for a few key burst skills, such as Incap, Onslaught, and Dizzying.
    And considering all Heavy and Magicka changes, i feel Stamina is the true winner of this patch.

    On the contrary, I feel magicka is going to walk away the winner this patch. The heavy nerfs affect stamina and only stamina, because the sets that were nerfed were only used by stamina. Shields were nerfed, but resto heals were buffed with one of them being comparable to 5.1.0 Vigor. One of the obscenely strong DOT's is exclusive to magicka.
    @jcm2606 | PC NA | CP 1000+ | Stormproof | Boethia's Scythe
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