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Cheating vs exploits vs addons
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Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭we have hit that point int the thread where the OP has stated an argument, said argument has been refuted and reason why explained, OP has counter argued and be re-directed to the counter arguments and reasoning behind them, OP still does not understand and reverts to original argument, and round round we go. it should just be agreed that some of us understand the definition and some dont, i for one am bored re-typing the same thing 6 different ways and simplifying it to the point my cat is now my lawyer in regards to game contracts and definitions2 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
Ok sorry for going on the offensive. I'm done with this I guess. Nobody except a few console players seem to agree with anything I've said, so I'll just shut up. It's just frustrating when you get flooded with objections completely miss what your trying to say. Maybe my points are bad or maybe I don't communicate them well or maybe this forum is just toxic. Or maybe all three. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.
I would say that it is the second item: you are not communicating them well enough. Combine that with what appears to be not wanting to consider the other side of the conversation.
In reviewing the thread, it has filled in some of the past history that I as a newer player do not have. Like the fact that ZOS reached out to addon creators prior to release to see what they could do to help make the game more playable at release time. This fact in and of itself says beyond a shadow of doubt that addons are not cheats, and the use of addons is supported by ZOS (And other MMO companies) as being part of the normal MMO gaming experience. This teamwork between the company and the addon creators is what I was explaining in a previous post. But you seem to be ignoring these facts and continue with this "Addons are cheats" is how it appears to me when I read the thread.
I would not say that you have wasted my time. I have enjoyed reading the thread and contributing too it.
I agree that when you compare the PC platform to the console, the PC has an advantage, but I think that is simply from the fact that the PC platform itself is better platform for this type of MMO than the console is for ESO, and it has nothing to do with what ZOS has done with ESO.
Note: I am not a console gamer, and I do not own any consoles, so I really cant compare the PC experience to the console experience.
Im ignoring those facts because I'm not really debating what it is that zos currently allows. That's spelled out fairly well and I agree under the current regime add-ons are 100% fair game and exploits are 100% not. What I'm debating is whether that disparity represents good customer service and helps enforce fair play in a multiplayer game.
you can not ignore the status quo simply because it does not fit your argument when the status quo is the very essence of your argument, you ARE arguing "what it is ZOS currently allows" this is the very crux of your post!
"Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is). But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is"Edited by Alienoutlaw on August 7, 2019 10:02PM0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Shokasegambit1 wrote: »
I like this talking point -
You state an exploit as,
" Something that unintentionally slipped into the game that was never to be used by any player and by using an exploit or exploiting a bug you gain an advantage."
First of all an exploit could be a numorous amount of things. From giving one personal opinion of an eso exploit shouldn't constitute it's validity.
Giving the fact that ZOS is a business players fail to see the truth. There will always be meta's to sale the next dlc - you say exploits as unintentionally slipped into the game ZOS calls it selling the next dlc. So to use language in a highly manipulative aspect to rally nerfs / buffs or use words as cheese, is just incompetence of l2p.
This game is starting to punish creative and critical thinking skills for mathematical game design.
I really dont understand the Point you are trying to make.
What does Zos being a Business have to do with exploits existing?
Correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but apparently you state that Zos lets exploits slip into the game to sell the next dlc? Considering that the TOS forbids you from using exploits, that you can get your account suspended from using exploits and that exploits, sadly not all the time, but often get fixed I dont understand how you could possibly reach that conclusion.
Rallying for buffs and nerfs has never once been mentioned by me and has Nothing to do with exploits so I´d like to understand why you bring that up.
Out of sheer curiosity, how would you define an exploit?
Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
Ok sorry for going on the offensive. I'm done with this I guess. Nobody except a few console players seem to agree with anything I've said, so I'll just shut up. It's just frustrating when you get flooded with objections completely miss what your trying to say. Maybe my points are bad or maybe I don't communicate them well or maybe this forum is just toxic. Or maybe all three. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.
I would say that it is the second item: you are not communicating them well enough. Combine that with what appears to be not wanting to consider the other side of the conversation.
In reviewing the thread, it has filled in some of the past history that I as a newer player do not have. Like the fact that ZOS reached out to addon creators prior to release to see what they could do to help make the game more playable at release time. This fact in and of itself says beyond a shadow of doubt that addons are not cheats, and the use of addons is supported by ZOS (And other MMO companies) as being part of the normal MMO gaming experience. This teamwork between the company and the addon creators is what I was explaining in a previous post. But you seem to be ignoring these facts and continue with this "Addons are cheats" is how it appears to me when I read the thread.
I would not say that you have wasted my time. I have enjoyed reading the thread and contributing too it.
I agree that when you compare the PC platform to the console, the PC has an advantage, but I think that is simply from the fact that the PC platform itself is better platform for this type of MMO than the console is for ESO, and it has nothing to do with what ZOS has done with ESO.
Note: I am not a console gamer, and I do not own any consoles, so I really cant compare the PC experience to the console experience.
Im ignoring those facts because I'm not really debating what it is that zos currently allows. That's spelled out fairly well and I agree under the current regime add-ons are 100% fair game and exploits are 100% not. What I'm debating is whether that disparity represents good customer service and helps enforce fair play in a multiplayer game.
you can not ignore the status quo simply because it does not fit your argument when the status quo is the very essence of your argument, you ARE arguing "what it is ZOS currently allows" this is the very crux of your post!
"Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is). But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is"
Your equivocating on the game software itself, the ways it could be modified through add-ons, and the terms of service governing it's use.0 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
Ok sorry for going on the offensive. I'm done with this I guess. Nobody except a few console players seem to agree with anything I've said, so I'll just shut up. It's just frustrating when you get flooded with objections completely miss what your trying to say. Maybe my points are bad or maybe I don't communicate them well or maybe this forum is just toxic. Or maybe all three. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.
I would say that it is the second item: you are not communicating them well enough. Combine that with what appears to be not wanting to consider the other side of the conversation.
In reviewing the thread, it has filled in some of the past history that I as a newer player do not have. Like the fact that ZOS reached out to addon creators prior to release to see what they could do to help make the game more playable at release time. This fact in and of itself says beyond a shadow of doubt that addons are not cheats, and the use of addons is supported by ZOS (And other MMO companies) as being part of the normal MMO gaming experience. This teamwork between the company and the addon creators is what I was explaining in a previous post. But you seem to be ignoring these facts and continue with this "Addons are cheats" is how it appears to me when I read the thread.
I would not say that you have wasted my time. I have enjoyed reading the thread and contributing too it.
I agree that when you compare the PC platform to the console, the PC has an advantage, but I think that is simply from the fact that the PC platform itself is better platform for this type of MMO than the console is for ESO, and it has nothing to do with what ZOS has done with ESO.
Note: I am not a console gamer, and I do not own any consoles, so I really cant compare the PC experience to the console experience.
Im ignoring those facts because I'm not really debating what it is that zos currently allows. That's spelled out fairly well and I agree under the current regime add-ons are 100% fair game and exploits are 100% not. What I'm debating is whether that disparity represents good customer service and helps enforce fair play in a multiplayer game.
you can not ignore the status quo simply because it does not fit your argument when the status quo is the very essence of your argument, you ARE arguing "what it is ZOS currently allows" this is the very crux of your post!
"Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is). But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is"
Your equivocating on the game software itself, the ways it could be modified through add-ons, and the terms of service governing it's use.
the game is the software the software is the game, the 2 are intrinsic, the software can not be modified by an add-on the software (code) that add-on's use is released by ZOS and CONTROLLED by ZOS, im not sure how many more time i need to explain this1 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
Ok sorry for going on the offensive. I'm done with this I guess. Nobody except a few console players seem to agree with anything I've said, so I'll just shut up. It's just frustrating when you get flooded with objections completely miss what your trying to say. Maybe my points are bad or maybe I don't communicate them well or maybe this forum is just toxic. Or maybe all three. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.
I would say that it is the second item: you are not communicating them well enough. Combine that with what appears to be not wanting to consider the other side of the conversation.
In reviewing the thread, it has filled in some of the past history that I as a newer player do not have. Like the fact that ZOS reached out to addon creators prior to release to see what they could do to help make the game more playable at release time. This fact in and of itself says beyond a shadow of doubt that addons are not cheats, and the use of addons is supported by ZOS (And other MMO companies) as being part of the normal MMO gaming experience. This teamwork between the company and the addon creators is what I was explaining in a previous post. But you seem to be ignoring these facts and continue with this "Addons are cheats" is how it appears to me when I read the thread.
I would not say that you have wasted my time. I have enjoyed reading the thread and contributing too it.
I agree that when you compare the PC platform to the console, the PC has an advantage, but I think that is simply from the fact that the PC platform itself is better platform for this type of MMO than the console is for ESO, and it has nothing to do with what ZOS has done with ESO.
Note: I am not a console gamer, and I do not own any consoles, so I really cant compare the PC experience to the console experience.
Im ignoring those facts because I'm not really debating what it is that zos currently allows. That's spelled out fairly well and I agree under the current regime add-ons are 100% fair game and exploits are 100% not. What I'm debating is whether that disparity represents good customer service and helps enforce fair play in a multiplayer game.
you can not ignore the status quo simply because it does not fit your argument when the status quo is the very essence of your argument, you ARE arguing "what it is ZOS currently allows" this is the very crux of your post!
"Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is). But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is"
Your equivocating on the game software itself, the ways it could be modified through add-ons, and the terms of service governing it's use.
the game is the software the software is the game, the 2 are intrinsic, the software can not be modified by an add-on the software (code) that add-on's use is released by ZOS and CONTROLLED by ZOS, im not sure how many more time i need to explain this
I might be misunderstanding you, but add-ons are not released, controlled, or blessed by zos. They just allow them in general and control the api. Anyone can code one up and drop it in their add-ons folder. I have done so myself.0 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭Players who don't download that third party software to manipulate the information the game gives them are at a genuine disadvantage.
They are only at an disadvantage because they choose not to use these addons. ZOS allows the addons, hence it is not cheating.
Edited by Jayman1000 on August 7, 2019 10:25PM1 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »
And if ZOS changed the TOS to allow exploits, that would not be cheating either. So why don't they do that it would make a lot of cheating go away.0 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jayman1000 wrote: »
And if ZOS changed the TOS to allow exploits, that would not be cheating either. So why don't they do that it would make a lot of cheating go away.
Yes, everything that zos says, goes. But why would zos allow exploits? Exploits are specifically actions that make you circumvent the rules of the game give you an advantage that zos did not intent. Why would zos allow actions that they did not intend?0 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭seriously this is going round in circles, either you get it or you dont leave it there for the love of god please just leave it0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »seriously this is going round in circles, either you get it or you dont leave it there for the love of god please just leave it
Yup.0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »Jayman1000 wrote: »
And if ZOS changed the TOS to allow exploits, that would not be cheating either. So why don't they do that it would make a lot of cheating go away.
Yes, everything that zos says, goes. But why would zos allow exploits? Exploits are specifically actions that make you circumvent the rules of the game give you an advantage that zos did not intent. Why would zos allow actions that they did not intend?
To not punish paying customers for mistakes made on the Dev side.1 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »seriously this is going round in circles, either you get it or you dont leave it there for the love of god please just leave it
just because you dont agree with his views does not make you right.
hes allowed to continue talking about it.
and many of us support his beliefs0 -
Thorvik_Tyrson✭✭✭Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
Ok sorry for going on the offensive. I'm done with this I guess. Nobody except a few console players seem to agree with anything I've said, so I'll just shut up. It's just frustrating when you get flooded with objections completely miss what your trying to say. Maybe my points are bad or maybe I don't communicate them well or maybe this forum is just toxic. Or maybe all three. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.
I would say that it is the second item: you are not communicating them well enough. Combine that with what appears to be not wanting to consider the other side of the conversation.
In reviewing the thread, it has filled in some of the past history that I as a newer player do not have. Like the fact that ZOS reached out to addon creators prior to release to see what they could do to help make the game more playable at release time. This fact in and of itself says beyond a shadow of doubt that addons are not cheats, and the use of addons is supported by ZOS (And other MMO companies) as being part of the normal MMO gaming experience. This teamwork between the company and the addon creators is what I was explaining in a previous post. But you seem to be ignoring these facts and continue with this "Addons are cheats" is how it appears to me when I read the thread.
I would not say that you have wasted my time. I have enjoyed reading the thread and contributing too it.
I agree that when you compare the PC platform to the console, the PC has an advantage, but I think that is simply from the fact that the PC platform itself is better platform for this type of MMO than the console is for ESO, and it has nothing to do with what ZOS has done with ESO.
Note: I am not a console gamer, and I do not own any consoles, so I really cant compare the PC experience to the console experience.
Im ignoring those facts because I'm not really debating what it is that zos currently allows. That's spelled out fairly well and I agree under the current regime add-ons are 100% fair game and exploits are 100% not. What I'm debating is whether that disparity represents good customer service and helps enforce fair play in a multiplayer game.
Thank you Sir for the clarification. /bow0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
To not punish paying customers for mistakes made on the Dev side.
You are not getting punished for a mistake made on the Dev side. That would mean getting punished for an exploit merely existing.
What you get punished for is to take concious Advantage of said exploit(or mistake on the Dev side) despite agreeing that you will not do so.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.4 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭eso was not created to be exploit, glitch, and cheat dependent. but sadly it is all that has become of both pvp and pve in eso.
and if you dont comply with that type of gameplay and you fight against it then your made out to be bullied and railed against.
especially here on the forums.0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭eso was not created to be exploit, glitch, and cheat dependent. but sadly it is all that has become of both pvp and pve in eso.
and if you dont comply with that type of gameplay and you fight against it then your made out to be bullied and railed against.
especially here on the forums.
Eso isnt exploit, glitch and cheat dependent today either.
In fact we have a much better cheat protection than we had back at launch. Eso launched with Client sided stat checks which allowed very easy Manipulation. If you have been there at launch Zazeer should ring a bell, what he has done way back in the days is not as easy to achieve as nowadays as it was then.
Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »
And if ZOS changed the TOS to allow exploits, that would not be cheating either. So why don't they do that it would make a lot of cheating go away.
You have to craft unlikely hypotheticals to try to defend your comments. Stick with facts and you will begin to understand why everyone disagrees with your fake definitions.1 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭Ok so let's say this ...
What's the difference between good theorycrafting and using an exploit ?
Let's say something has been in the game for 5 years that nobody uses and renders it useless. Nothing will change about it next patch or ever, becuase people view it as obsolete. But with testing and using it with different builds, it could be flying under the radar to be really good. And when I mean really good I mean the next PvP meta / aka nerflings cry about cheese.
Is that an exploit or just good thoerycrafting ? As ZOS introduces stuff in the next dlc, they make creative thinkers test. And thus get rewarded for understanding the potential to use that toward there advantage.
Is that seen as an exploit and should be punished or should it be rewarded in good thoerycrafting gameplay ?1 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »
And if ZOS changed the TOS to allow exploits, that would not be cheating either. So why don't they do that it would make a lot of cheating go away.
because they love the attention and fitting into those charts and popularity contest scales on the internet.
like for example:
theres one on facebook that claims amount of popularity
like the ones that claim high stats in
"2,417,816 people are talking about elderscrolls online on 8-7-2019 to 8-9-2019"
what they dont say is what subject it was about, so if theres a indepth conversation about cheating then its valued and you can even make money on such polls.0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Shokasegambit1 wrote: »Ok so let's say this ...
What's the difference between good theorycrafting and using an exploit ?
Let's say something has been in the game for 5 years that nobody uses and renders it useless. Nothing will change about it next patch or ever, becuase people view it as obsolete. But with testing and using it with different builds, it could be flying under the radar to be really good. And when I mean really good I mean the next PvP meta / aka nerflings cry about cheese.
Is that an exploit or just good thoerycrafting ? As ZOS introduces stuff in the next dlc, they make creative thinkers test. And thus get rewarded for understanding the potential to use that toward there advantage.
Is that seen as an exploit and should be punished or should it be rewarded in good thoerycrafting gameplay ?
Why should it be punished unless you are exploiting a bugged set?
The difference between good theorycrafting and using an exploit is quite simple. With good theorycrafting you or someone else discovers a way to make stuff work that others havent thought of or didnt think of as efficient enough to be used. If for example Set A is seen as very weak and thus isnt used by anybody but someone Tests and discovers that combining Set A with Set B and Undaunted Set C or Arena weapon D makes this combination very strong it is still within intended usage of said set UNLESS said set is bugged or has an unintended interaction with either Set B, C or D.
If you simply exploit bugged sets, for example when twice Born star was bugged and gave more Mundus Stone bonuses than intended then you are not some theorycraft Genius but actively exploiting a bug.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.2 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »
And if ZOS changed the TOS to allow exploits, that would not be cheating either. So why don't they do that it would make a lot of cheating go away.
You have to craft unlikely hypotheticals to try to defend your comments. Stick with facts and you will begin to understand why everyone disagrees with your fake definitions.
Ok I'm gonna try. This is tough lol.
Fact 1: add-ons allow for imbalanced gameplay, unless "gameplay" is taken to include the acquisition of the best add-ons. Some might think it is, but I don't buy that personally.
Fact 2: exploits do not.
Fact 3: cheating is defined as "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."
Warning, mild counterfactuals coming up, but they are critical to understand:
Fact 4: If exploits were not banned by the TOS, then they would not be covered by any aspect of that definition: they would be neither dishonest nor unfair.
Fact 5: add-ons, even though they are allowed by the TOS and so do not involve any "dishonest" behavior, can still be argued to fall under the umbrella of "unfair" since, as stated in fact 1, they grant advantage to players with better add-ons.Edited by worrallj on August 7, 2019 11:56PM1 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I saw a message on a loading screen that basically explains how to animation cancel or light attack weave or something. LOL
Folks complain about animation canceling because they can’t do it. Learn THAT. As for addons most just give you information and many should be a part of the base game anyhow.
Exploits? ZOS might fix em. More than likely they won’t. If they won’t it’s a feature and should be treated as such.0 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jayman1000 wrote: »Jayman1000 wrote: »
And if ZOS changed the TOS to allow exploits, that would not be cheating either. So why don't they do that it would make a lot of cheating go away.
Yes, everything that zos says, goes. But why would zos allow exploits? Exploits are specifically actions that make you circumvent the rules of the game give you an advantage that zos did not intent. Why would zos allow actions that they did not intend?
To not punish paying customers for mistakes made on the Dev side.
If you exploit you do so willingly, knowing full well that what you are doing is exploiting. If you happen to accidentally do one of these actions it is not exploiting. If you keep doing it, then it is exploiting and in that case you would probably deserve some punishment then.1 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Shokasegambit1 wrote: »Ok so let's say this ...
What's the difference between good theorycrafting and using an exploit ?
Let's say something has been in the game for 5 years that nobody uses and renders it useless. Nothing will change about it next patch or ever, becuase people view it as obsolete. But with testing and using it with different builds, it could be flying under the radar to be really good. And when I mean really good I mean the next PvP meta / aka nerflings cry about cheese.
Is that an exploit or just good thoerycrafting ? As ZOS introduces stuff in the next dlc, they make creative thinkers test. And thus get rewarded for understanding the potential to use that toward there advantage.
Is that seen as an exploit and should be punished or should it be rewarded in good thoerycrafting gameplay ?
Why should it be punished unless you are exploiting a bugged set?
The difference between good theorycrafting and using an exploit is quite simple. With good theorycrafting you or someone else discovers a way to make stuff work that others havent thought of or didnt think of as efficient enough to be used. If for example Set A is seen as very weak and thus isnt used by anybody but someone Tests and discovers that combining Set A with Set B and Undaunted Set C or Arena weapon D makes this combination very strong it is still within intended usage of said set UNLESS said set is bugged or has an unintended interaction with either Set B, C or D.
If you simply exploit bugged sets, for example when twice Born star was bugged and gave more Mundus Stone bonuses than intended then you are not some theorycraft Genius but actively exploiting a bug.
I agree - but the language in eso players look at good thoerycrafting as exploits and cheese thus getting stuff nerfed or using the words like over preform / and giving inflated mathatical equations to get support to get something nerfed. Yet it wasn't a problem for 5 years do you see my view ?
TBS yes that was a hard exploit I agree lol So was pirate skele then you could cleanse the the defile.0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Shokasegambit1 wrote: »
I agree - but the language in eso players look at good thoerycrafting as exploits and cheese thus getting stuff nerfed or using the words like over preform / and giving inflated mathatical equations to get support to get something nerfed. Yet it wasn't a problem for 5 years do you see my view ?
TBS yes that was a hard exploit I agree lol So was pirate skele then you could cleanse the the defile.
Im sure there has Always been People Screaming for nerfs and likely more often than not less experienced People perceiving something as too strong but not understanding how to make very efficient pvp builds themselves or they simply do not have the experience necessary to Play a strong build well enough. The number of such complaints probably increased over the years, I cant say for certain since I havent been in the Forums nearly as Long as I have played the game, but it is probably something that increased with more inexperienced Players entering pvp and getting killed in few seconds by experienced pvpers with strong builds.
Some might have Always seen it as Problem but simply were not visible since many did not agree with them.
I certainly see your view and I dont understand why anyone would perceive Sound theorycrafting to be exploiting when no Bugs have been involved.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »
And if ZOS changed the TOS to allow exploits, that would not be cheating either. So why don't they do that it would make a lot of cheating go away.
You have to craft unlikely hypotheticals to try to defend your comments. Stick with facts and you will begin to understand why everyone disagrees with your fake definitions.
Ok I'm gonna try. This is tough lol.
Fact 1: add-ons allow for imbalanced gameplay, unless "gameplay" is taken to include the acquisition of the best add-ons. Some might think it is, but I don't buy that personally.
Fact 2: exploits do not.
Fact 3: cheating is defined as "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination."
Warning, mild counterfactuals coming up, but they are critical to understand:
Fact 4: If exploits were not banned by the TOS, then they would not be covered by any aspect of that definition: they would be neither dishonest nor unfair.
Fact 5: add-ons, even though they are allowed by the TOS and so do not involve any "dishonest" behavior, can still be argued to fall under the umbrella of "unfair" since, as stated in fact 1, they grant advantage to players with better add-ons.
You still didn't explain how addons can allow for imbalanced gameplay. They are mostly cosmetic and allow to show information that the game already tells your game client, but normally it's simply not shown, like your resistance stats. If they do something that ZOS doesn't want to allow to us then the devs will kill the possibility (like the ability to save and load outfit/dye configurations beyond your paid slots). The addons themselves are not even software in my opinion since they can't be run independently, only in the game and after your character loaded into Tamriel.1 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.JumpmanLane wrote: »Folks complain about animation canceling because they can’t do it. Learn THAT.
that is false information and its an outright insult.
we simply disagree with it.
Edited by Gilvoth on August 8, 2019 12:42AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »
And if ZOS changed the TOS to allow exploits, that would not be cheating either. So why don't they do that it would make a lot of cheating go away.
You have to craft unlikely hypotheticals to try to defend your comments. Stick with facts and you will begin to understand why everyone disagrees with your fake definitions.
Warning, mild counterfactuals coming up, but they are critical to understand:
Fact 4: If exploits were not banned by the TOS, then they would not be covered by any aspect of that definition: they would be neither dishonest nor unfair.
Fact 5: add-ons, even though they are allowed by the TOS and so do not involve any "dishonest" behavior, can still be argued to fall under the umbrella of "unfair" since, as stated in fact 1, they grant advantage to players with better add-ons.
You are not explaining how the use of addons create an imbalance in game play or provides an unfair advantage since they are available to all and officially sanctioned by Zos.
Besides the fact most of your "definitions" in this thread are really just your fabricated opinions I edited the above quote to show how you misuse the term fact.
Counterfactuals are not facts as you are falsely calling them here.. They are basically nothing more than hypotheticals and are merely you creating a fantasy where your opinion would be correct. In other words, fake news which his basically all you have presented in this thread. Ironic how it seems few PC players agree with you.1 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.JumpmanLane wrote: »Folks complain about animation canceling because they can’t do it. Learn THAT.
that is false information and its an outright insult.
we simply disagree with it.
Fair enough, dude...but...why disagree with it?0