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Cheating vs exploits vs addons
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
Again, incorrect. .
1. Addons do not create a non-standard method to create an advantage as addons are standard on PC. It is irrelevant that consoles do not have addons as PC and consoles do not play together.
2. Addons do not play the game for us. I have yet to find an addon that plays the game for me. Bots and macros are not addons. They are programs that are outside of what the ESO community calls addons.
So your comment here again is incorrect. It cannot be a "method beyond normal game play" if it is something that Zos has sanctioned, requested and managed as is the case.
I am just sticking to known facts.Edited by idk on August 7, 2019 4:20PM4 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"0 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
This, ZoS could change the API in anyway to remove functionality like auto crafting if they wanted.MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
It is not for you to draft a new ToS.. You can have your opinion but yours posted here lacks a logical or even rational foundation.
The very fact that addons are sanctioned by Zos and only work because Zos lets them work is the very solid reason that they are not cheating, hacking, or exploiting in the manner those terms are commonly used when referring to gaming..
This is what I've kept running into on this post that I don't get. Seems like people have an almost religious reverence for the ZOS-given commandments of what's allowed, so that even hypotheticals about what might be better are considered anathema.
They have removed some functions like detect snipe of crystal fragment casting from sneak and to see others dps directly.
They change lot on how combat work all the time, they could stop Khajiit players from using " I " in chat but only allow this one or Khajiit.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
Edit #2: on the topic of what should be, what I suppose if really like is if ZOS would take a little more responsibility for making the base game UI a little more useable so that addons did not, in fact, have such an outsized effect of player performance. And also I still don't think using exploits should be a bannable offense. I think that's punishing your customers for your own mistakes.Edited by worrallj on August 7, 2019 4:44PM0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger69,420 achievement points2 -
Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
I would say the logic is not that simple. When it comes to displaying combat mechanics, the addons display combat information that is not native to the base UI. Therefore, the addon gives an advantage to the user over someone who is only using the base game.0 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
Edit #2: on the topic of what should be, what I suppose if really like is if ZOS would take a little more responsibility for making the base game UI a little more useable so that addons did not, in fact, have such an outsized effect of player performance.
i hear you on that, as per my post on "my" definition of cheating, but you will (to have a cogent argument) have to concede that wether you like or not ZOS does support Add-ons, they even sanctioned the raid logger which has more access to code than any add-on, as for add-ons having an outsized effect on players performance that is subjective and wehter or not you find those add-ons usefull or not, but for direct player Vs player there is no add-on that gives any advantage at all0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
Ok sorry for going on the offensive. I'm done with this I guess. Nobody except a few console players seem to agree with anything I've said, so I'll just shut up. It's just frustrating when you get flooded with objections completely miss what your trying to say. Maybe my points are bad or maybe I don't communicate them well or maybe this forum is just toxic. Or maybe all three. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Donny_Vito wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
I would say the logic is not that simple. When it comes to displaying combat mechanics, the addons display combat information that is not native to the base UI. Therefore, the addon gives an advantage to the user over someone who is only using the base game.
Nothing is shown/done that doesn't already have either...
1) a tell/animation in the game
2) a timed mechanic/ability
Do add-ons make it EASIER to see/keep track of... yes. Does it show you invisible mechanics, do things for you, etc... no.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger69,420 achievement points2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
Edit #2: on the topic of what should be, what I suppose if really like is if ZOS would take a little more responsibility for making the base game UI a little more useable so that addons did not, in fact, have such an outsized effect of player performance. And also I still don't think using exploits should be a bannable offense. I think that's punishing your customers for your own mistakes.
It is a solid and well known fact that Zos asked players to develop addons, that Zos sanctions these addons, that Zos supports their use and as such that makes them part of normal game play.
There is no debate. There is no quibbling. All you are doing is arguing nonsense and there is nothing logical or rational to back up your wild claims.4 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
Ok sorry for going on the offensive. I'm done with this I guess. Nobody except a few console players seem to agree with anything I've said, so I'll just shut up. It's just frustrating when you get flooded with objections completely miss what your trying to say. Maybe my points are bad or maybe I don't communicate them well or maybe this forum is just toxic. Or maybe all three. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.
its never a waste of time when something you have said sparks a debate, the choice you have to make is how you deal with comments, take them as constructive and non malicious as i am sure all are, or take them as a personal attack (which they are not) you are not wrong for wanting clarification, i'm sure everyone here does to, except the fact we differ on a few points and work with what we all agree on
Edited by Alienoutlaw on August 7, 2019 4:56PM1 -
Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭Donny_Vito wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
I would say the logic is not that simple. When it comes to displaying combat mechanics, the addons display combat information that is not native to the base UI. Therefore, the addon gives an advantage to the user over someone who is only using the base game.
Nothing is shown/done that doesn't already have either...
1) a tell/animation in the game
2) a timed mechanic/ability
Do add-ons make it EASIER to see/keep track of... yes. Does it show you invisible mechanics, do things for you, etc... no.
I'm not arguing that a player could deduce themselves what mechanics are coming, because they can. But I don't think you can even debate that having some sort of UI that pops and says "BLOCK NOW" or "MECHANIC HAPPENING IN 5 SECONDS" is native UI to the base game. It is not. It gives the player an advantage. We can argue whether it's cheating or not, okay sure. But there is no arguing that it gives you an advantage in combat. More combat cues == better advantage.0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Donny_Vito wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
I would say the logic is not that simple. When it comes to displaying combat mechanics, the addons display combat information that is not native to the base UI. Therefore, the addon gives an advantage to the user over someone who is only using the base game.
Nothing is shown/done that doesn't already have either...
1) a tell/animation in the game
2) a timed mechanic/ability
Do add-ons make it EASIER to see/keep track of... yes. Does it show you invisible mechanics, do things for you, etc... no.
I'm not arguing that a player could deduce themselves what mechanics are coming, because they can. But I don't think you can even debate that having some sort of UI that pops and says "BLOCK NOW" or "MECHANIC HAPPENING IN 5 SECONDS" is native UI to the base game. It is not. It gives the player an advantage. We can argue whether it's cheating or not, okay sure. But there is no arguing that it gives you an advantage in combat. More combat cues == better advantage.
Also there's some stuff that's truly no where in the base UI afaik. Penetration character stats, for instance. Also they do more than just display information. They can equip items, skills, and champion point setups automatically. That sounds like just a QoL thing, but in circumstances that aren't all that uncommon it can really impact player performance. Not to mention time is a valuable resource in MMOs.2 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Donny_Vito wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
I would say the logic is not that simple. When it comes to displaying combat mechanics, the addons display combat information that is not native to the base UI. Therefore, the addon gives an advantage to the user over someone who is only using the base game.
Nothing is shown/done that doesn't already have either...
1) a tell/animation in the game
2) a timed mechanic/ability
Do add-ons make it EASIER to see/keep track of... yes. Does it show you invisible mechanics, do things for you, etc... no.
I'm not arguing that a player could deduce themselves what mechanics are coming, because they can. But I don't think you can even debate that having some sort of UI that pops and says "BLOCK NOW" or "MECHANIC HAPPENING IN 5 SECONDS" is native UI to the base game. It is not. It gives the player an advantage. We can argue whether it's cheating or not, okay sure. But there is no arguing that it gives you an advantage in combat. More combat cues == better advantage.
you bring a valid point, Add-ons that "telegraph" mechanics could be seen as an advantage but only if a select few had access to them, so in the case of console players the argument is mute as no one has access to them, in the case of the PC also the argument is mute because EVERYONE has access to them, it them becomes a choice on the PC.....if some choose the add-on they have no gain over someone that chose not to have add-on both parties had an equal footing0 -
Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
I would say the logic is not that simple. When it comes to displaying combat mechanics, the addons display combat information that is not native to the base UI. Therefore, the addon gives an advantage to the user over someone who is only using the base game.
Nothing is shown/done that doesn't already have either...
1) a tell/animation in the game
2) a timed mechanic/ability
Do add-ons make it EASIER to see/keep track of... yes. Does it show you invisible mechanics, do things for you, etc... no.
I'm not arguing that a player could deduce themselves what mechanics are coming, because they can. But I don't think you can even debate that having some sort of UI that pops and says "BLOCK NOW" or "MECHANIC HAPPENING IN 5 SECONDS" is native UI to the base game. It is not. It gives the player an advantage. We can argue whether it's cheating or not, okay sure. But there is no arguing that it gives you an advantage in combat. More combat cues == better advantage.
you bring a valid point, Add-ons that "telegraph" mechanics could be seen as an advantage but only if a select few had access to them, so in the case of console players the argument is mute as no one has access to them, in the case of the PC also the argument is mute because EVERYONE has access to them, it them becomes a choice on the PC.....if some choose the add-on they have no gain over someone that chose not to have add-on both parties had an equal footing
Yes, to a degree. Some of the ability to run an addon is dependent upon the client. But I think overall you are right...each respective platform either has full access to addons or has no access, which really nullifies the cheating aspect.0 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
I would say the logic is not that simple. When it comes to displaying combat mechanics, the addons display combat information that is not native to the base UI. Therefore, the addon gives an advantage to the user over someone who is only using the base game.
Nothing is shown/done that doesn't already have either...
1) a tell/animation in the game
2) a timed mechanic/ability
Do add-ons make it EASIER to see/keep track of... yes. Does it show you invisible mechanics, do things for you, etc... no.
I'm not arguing that a player could deduce themselves what mechanics are coming, because they can. But I don't think you can even debate that having some sort of UI that pops and says "BLOCK NOW" or "MECHANIC HAPPENING IN 5 SECONDS" is native UI to the base game. It is not. It gives the player an advantage. We can argue whether it's cheating or not, okay sure. But there is no arguing that it gives you an advantage in combat. More combat cues == better advantage.
you bring a valid point, Add-ons that "telegraph" mechanics could be seen as an advantage but only if a select few had access to them, so in the case of console players the argument is mute as no one has access to them, in the case of the PC also the argument is mute because EVERYONE has access to them, it them becomes a choice on the PC.....if some choose the add-on they have no gain over someone that chose not to have add-on both parties had an equal footing
Agreed... (just FYI... it's "moot" not "mute" ) The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Moth Trusted - The Just - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger69,420 achievement points0 -
Alienoutlaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
I would say the logic is not that simple. When it comes to displaying combat mechanics, the addons display combat information that is not native to the base UI. Therefore, the addon gives an advantage to the user over someone who is only using the base game.
Nothing is shown/done that doesn't already have either...
1) a tell/animation in the game
2) a timed mechanic/ability
Do add-ons make it EASIER to see/keep track of... yes. Does it show you invisible mechanics, do things for you, etc... no.
I'm not arguing that a player could deduce themselves what mechanics are coming, because they can. But I don't think you can even debate that having some sort of UI that pops and says "BLOCK NOW" or "MECHANIC HAPPENING IN 5 SECONDS" is native UI to the base game. It is not. It gives the player an advantage. We can argue whether it's cheating or not, okay sure. But there is no arguing that it gives you an advantage in combat. More combat cues == better advantage.
you bring a valid point, Add-ons that "telegraph" mechanics could be seen as an advantage but only if a select few had access to them, so in the case of console players the argument is mute as no one has access to them, in the case of the PC also the argument is mute because EVERYONE has access to them, it them becomes a choice on the PC.....if some choose the add-on they have no gain over someone that chose not to have add-on both parties had an equal footing
Agreed... (just FYI... it's "moot" not "mute" )
nooted i mean noted 0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »Donny_Vito wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
I would say the logic is not that simple. When it comes to displaying combat mechanics, the addons display combat information that is not native to the base UI. Therefore, the addon gives an advantage to the user over someone who is only using the base game.
Nothing is shown/done that doesn't already have either...
1) a tell/animation in the game
2) a timed mechanic/ability
Do add-ons make it EASIER to see/keep track of... yes. Does it show you invisible mechanics, do things for you, etc... no.
I'm not arguing that a player could deduce themselves what mechanics are coming, because they can. But I don't think you can even debate that having some sort of UI that pops and says "BLOCK NOW" or "MECHANIC HAPPENING IN 5 SECONDS" is native UI to the base game. It is not. It gives the player an advantage. We can argue whether it's cheating or not, okay sure. But there is no arguing that it gives you an advantage in combat. More combat cues == better advantage.
you bring a valid point, Add-ons that "telegraph" mechanics could be seen as an advantage but only if a select few had access to them, so in the case of console players the argument is mute as no one has access to them, in the case of the PC also the argument is mute because EVERYONE has access to them, it them becomes a choice on the PC.....if some choose the add-on they have no gain over someone that chose not to have add-on both parties had an equal footing
I know I said I'm done but just to bring this back to the op... EVERYONE also has access to exploits and they don't even have to download any third party scripts they just use the vanilla base UI that zos sold them.
So that's why I was trying to argue that it's a little odd that people are banned for exploits but using random scripts you downloaded off the internet to modify the UI is totally normal. That's really all I was trying to say.0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I know I said I'm done but just to bring this back to the op... EVERYONE also has access to exploits and they don't even have to download any third party scripts they just use the vanilla base UI that zos sold them.
So that's why I was trying to argue that it's a little odd that people are banned for exploits but using random scripts you downloaded off the internet to modify the UI is totally normal. That's really all I was trying to say.
Well everyone also has Access to cheat engine, as far as Im Aware you can simply download it.
Its not odd that People can be banned for exploits while they are not banned for using addons or as you put it "random scripts you downloaded off the Internet to modify the UI".
The reason for this not being odd is quite simple, Zos allows for addons to exist, controls them as to what they can do and allows them to be used by any Player. This is also done intentionally.
An exploit on the other Hand is something that has unintentionally slipped into the game and was never intended to be used by any Player and by using an exploit or exploiting a bug you can gain Advantages that Zos did not intend you to have, the same is not true for addons as Zos intends for them to be used and provides Limits as to what they can or cannot do.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.1 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
I know I said I'm done but just to bring this back to the op... EVERYONE also has access to exploits and they don't even have to download any third party scripts they just use the vanilla base UI that zos sold them.
So that's why I was trying to argue that it's a little odd that people are banned for exploits but using random scripts you downloaded off the internet to modify the UI is totally normal. That's really all I was trying to say.
Well everyone also has Access to cheat engine, as far as Im Aware you can simply download it.
Its not odd that People can be banned for exploits while they are not banned for using addons or as you put it "random scripts you downloaded off the Internet to modify the UI".
The reason for this not being odd is quite simple, Zos allows for addons to exist, controls them as to what they can do and allows them to be used by any Player. This is also done intentionally.
An exploit on the other Hand is something that has unintentionally slipped into the game and was never intended to be used by any Player and by using an exploit or exploiting a bug you can gain Advantages that Zos did not intend you to have, the same is not true for addons as Zos intends for them to be used and provides Limits as to what they can or cannot do.
Yup this is true. So I'd say downside of exploits is that it's unintended, and downside of add-ons is that they can give differential advantages. It's probably cuz I come from the sc2 community, but I put a lot more weight on differential advantages. So perhaps thats more of a preference thing and why many have the opposite intuition.1 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
No, but there are certain things they can do.
Just from the good old rumor mill...a certain addon author of notoriety makes addons that aren't on esoui. So the exposure they get is limited. The issue has been that the API has been far too open as to what it can do and what's available...
A question is: Was the use a particular addon by said author that warned you of stealthed players attacking you cheating? The answer would be no... but with an asterisk. It certainly had "unintended consequences" by including that information in the API for a addon author to access.
Not many of us really know or could really understand the full details of the API. I know I certainly don't... but that doesn't mean there are not under the radar addons that act like cheating currently in game.
Then there is the issue of automation via autohotkey and it's ilk. It's technically not "cheating"... but there are a lot of ways where unintended consequences crop up.
Last point on this overall topic: all of the "never misses the sequence" players out there that pull off difficult sequences with animation cancelling and/or timing exist in a grey area. That grey area is the realm of "well, it can be done manually" excuse. Yes technically the run and jump timing to get the super jump can be done manually... and is, but it's also likely not being done manually by some. (calling all macro deniers, macro deniers step forth).1 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »
No, but there are certain things they can do.
Just from the good old rumor mill...a certain addon author of notoriety makes addons that aren't on esoui. So the exposure they get is limited. The issue has been that the API has been far too open as to what it can do and what's available...
A question is: Was the use a particular addon by said author that warned you of stealthed players attacking you cheating? The answer would be no... but with an asterisk. It certainly had "unintended consequences" by including that information in the API for a addon author to access.
Not many of us really know or could really understand the full details of the API. I know I certainly don't... but that doesn't mean there are not under the radar addons that act like cheating currently in game.
Then there is the issue of automation via autohotkey and it's ilk. It's technically not "cheating"... but there are a lot of ways where unintended consequences crop up.
Last point on this overall topic: all of the "never misses the sequence" players out there that pull off difficult sequences with animation cancelling and/or timing exist in a grey area. That grey area is the realm of "well, it can be done manually" excuse. Yes technically the run and jump timing to get the super jump can be done manually... and is, but it's also likely not being done manually by some. (calling all macro deniers, macro deniers step forth).
Well I think macros are pretty much acknowledged by everyone to be cheating. And I guess this is my hobby horse that many don't seem to agree with but I'd add to your post that the big problem with those less popular add-ons that can detect an incoming stealth attack for example is not that it's unintended. If everyone had a buzzer go off before getting hit by a stealth attack, I don't see that as a horrible thing whether it was intended or not. It would suck for nightblades but at least everyone's playing the same game until it gets patched out. The big problem with such an add-on is that you've got select players running it and everyone else is out to dry.Edited by worrallj on August 7, 2019 6:58PM0 -
Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »
No, but there are certain things they can do.
Just from the good old rumor mill...a certain addon author of notoriety makes addons that aren't on esoui. So the exposure they get is limited. The issue has been that the API has been far too open as to what it can do and what's available...
A question is: Was the use a particular addon by said author that warned you of stealthed players attacking you cheating? The answer would be no... but with an asterisk. It certainly had "unintended consequences" by including that information in the API for a addon author to access.
Not many of us really know or could really understand the full details of the API. I know I certainly don't... but that doesn't mean there are not under the radar addons that act like cheating currently in game.
Then there is the issue of automation via autohotkey and it's ilk. It's technically not "cheating"... but there are a lot of ways where unintended consequences crop up.
Last point on this overall topic: all of the "never misses the sequence" players out there that pull off difficult sequences with animation cancelling and/or timing exist in a grey area. That grey area is the realm of "well, it can be done manually" excuse. Yes technically the run and jump timing to get the super jump can be done manually... and is, but it's also likely not being done manually by some. (calling all macro deniers, macro deniers step forth).
Well I think macros are pretty much acknowledged by everyone to be cheating. And I guess this is my hobby horse that many don't seem to agree with but I'd add to your post that the big problem with those less popular add-ons that can detect an incoming stealth attack for example is not that it's unintended. If everyone had a buzzer go off before getting hit by a stealth attack, I don't see that as a horrible thing whether it was intended or not. If it's bad it can be patched out. The big problem with such an add-on is that you've got select players running it and everyone else is out to dry.
That same argument can be said about every addon. Some people just may not be able to use that addon, whether it's a client or permissions issue. Whether it's one that detects incoming stealth attacks or just popping normal combat ques in a dungeon. Where do you draw the line? It's either every single one should be acceptable if the data is derived from the API, or none of them at all. We can't just pick and choose which ones are acceptable.0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Donny_Vito wrote: »rfennell_ESO wrote: »
No, but there are certain things they can do.
Just from the good old rumor mill...a certain addon author of notoriety makes addons that aren't on esoui. So the exposure they get is limited. The issue has been that the API has been far too open as to what it can do and what's available...
A question is: Was the use a particular addon by said author that warned you of stealthed players attacking you cheating? The answer would be no... but with an asterisk. It certainly had "unintended consequences" by including that information in the API for a addon author to access.
Not many of us really know or could really understand the full details of the API. I know I certainly don't... but that doesn't mean there are not under the radar addons that act like cheating currently in game.
Then there is the issue of automation via autohotkey and it's ilk. It's technically not "cheating"... but there are a lot of ways where unintended consequences crop up.
Last point on this overall topic: all of the "never misses the sequence" players out there that pull off difficult sequences with animation cancelling and/or timing exist in a grey area. That grey area is the realm of "well, it can be done manually" excuse. Yes technically the run and jump timing to get the super jump can be done manually... and is, but it's also likely not being done manually by some. (calling all macro deniers, macro deniers step forth).
Well I think macros are pretty much acknowledged by everyone to be cheating. And I guess this is my hobby horse that many don't seem to agree with but I'd add to your post that the big problem with those less popular add-ons that can detect an incoming stealth attack for example is not that it's unintended. If everyone had a buzzer go off before getting hit by a stealth attack, I don't see that as a horrible thing whether it was intended or not. If it's bad it can be patched out. The big problem with such an add-on is that you've got select players running it and everyone else is out to dry.
That same argument can be said about every addon. Some people just may not be able to use that addon, whether it's a client or permissions issue. Whether it's one that detects incoming stealth attacks or just popping normal combat ques in a dungeon. Where do you draw the line? It's either every single one should be acceptable if the data is derived from the API, or none of them at all. We can't just pick and choose which ones are acceptable.
Very true. And that's the problem. Add-ons are a sketchy/slippery slope when it comes to trying to ensure fair play. And my point is that the potential for abuse and "asymmetric warfare" seems way worse than a base game glitch that anyone with a copy if the game can use. So it annoys me that they ban paying customers because of bugs in the product they sold them, while at the same time relying on add-ons to avoid developing a better UI.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »@idk lol we seem to be saying the same thing 2mins apart
LOL. It seems a lot of us are saying the same thing. Read quote from OP below icymiAlienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
Nobody except a few console players seem to agree with anything I've said.
1 -
Thorvik_Tyrson✭✭✭Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
Ok sorry for going on the offensive. I'm done with this I guess. Nobody except a few console players seem to agree with anything I've said, so I'll just shut up. It's just frustrating when you get flooded with objections completely miss what your trying to say. Maybe my points are bad or maybe I don't communicate them well or maybe this forum is just toxic. Or maybe all three. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.
I would say that it is the second item: you are not communicating them well enough. Combine that with what appears to be not wanting to consider the other side of the conversation.
In reviewing the thread, it has filled in some of the past history that I as a newer player do not have. Like the fact that ZOS reached out to addon creators prior to release to see what they could do to help make the game more playable at release time. This fact in and of itself says beyond a shadow of doubt that addons are not cheats, and the use of addons is supported by ZOS (And other MMO companies) as being part of the normal MMO gaming experience. This teamwork between the company and the addon creators is what I was explaining in a previous post. But you seem to be ignoring these facts and continue with this "Addons are cheats" is how it appears to me when I read the thread.
I would not say that you have wasted my time. I have enjoyed reading the thread and contributing too it.
I agree that when you compare the PC platform to the console, the PC has an advantage, but I think that is simply from the fact that the PC platform itself is better platform for this type of MMO than the console is for ESO, and it has nothing to do with what ZOS has done with ESO.
Note: I am not a console gamer, and I do not own any consoles, so I really cant compare the PC experience to the console experience.0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »Alienoutlaw wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?
to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others
2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.
3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information
4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands
5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply
Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).
how so?
add-ons are sanctioned by ZOS so therefore not "non standard" Add-ons do not not "emulate human behaviour" to enable an advantage (multicrafting is now a QOL update)as for changing "Items/skills" you can not do this outside of the parameters set by the game IE: not in combat (if you could do this in combat that would be an exploit and therefore cheating"
I was reading the term "outside normal gameplay" and thinking that downloading third party add-ons wouldn't constitute "gameplay," let alone "normal gameplay," but I guess that's debatable.
Edit: also I'd want to quibble over the phrase "sanctioned by zos." ZOS currently supports the API, but they take absolutely zero responsibility for the content of add-ons. Plus as I've said several times I'm trying to have a conversation over what should be and not what is.
You're not having a conversation though... anytime anybody brings up any counterpoint, you go on the offensive. Attacking them, belittling them.
Addons cannot access any information that is not provided by the API, which is ZoS sanctioned. Thus Addons =! cheating. End of story.
Ok sorry for going on the offensive. I'm done with this I guess. Nobody except a few console players seem to agree with anything I've said, so I'll just shut up. It's just frustrating when you get flooded with objections completely miss what your trying to say. Maybe my points are bad or maybe I don't communicate them well or maybe this forum is just toxic. Or maybe all three. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.
I would say that it is the second item: you are not communicating them well enough. Combine that with what appears to be not wanting to consider the other side of the conversation.
In reviewing the thread, it has filled in some of the past history that I as a newer player do not have. Like the fact that ZOS reached out to addon creators prior to release to see what they could do to help make the game more playable at release time. This fact in and of itself says beyond a shadow of doubt that addons are not cheats, and the use of addons is supported by ZOS (And other MMO companies) as being part of the normal MMO gaming experience. This teamwork between the company and the addon creators is what I was explaining in a previous post. But you seem to be ignoring these facts and continue with this "Addons are cheats" is how it appears to me when I read the thread.
I would not say that you have wasted my time. I have enjoyed reading the thread and contributing too it.
I agree that when you compare the PC platform to the console, the PC has an advantage, but I think that is simply from the fact that the PC platform itself is better platform for this type of MMO than the console is for ESO, and it has nothing to do with what ZOS has done with ESO.
Note: I am not a console gamer, and I do not own any consoles, so I really cant compare the PC experience to the console experience.
Im ignoring those facts because I'm not really debating what it is that zos currently allows. That's spelled out fairly well and I agree under the current regime add-ons are 100% fair game and exploits are 100% not. What I'm debating is whether that disparity represents good customer service and helps enforce fair play in a multiplayer game.0 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »
I know I said I'm done but just to bring this back to the op... EVERYONE also has access to exploits and they don't even have to download any third party scripts they just use the vanilla base UI that zos sold them.
So that's why I was trying to argue that it's a little odd that people are banned for exploits but using random scripts you downloaded off the internet to modify the UI is totally normal. That's really all I was trying to say.
Well everyone also has Access to cheat engine, as far as Im Aware you can simply download it.
Its not odd that People can be banned for exploits while they are not banned for using addons or as you put it "random scripts you downloaded off the Internet to modify the UI".
The reason for this not being odd is quite simple, Zos allows for addons to exist, controls them as to what they can do and allows them to be used by any Player. This is also done intentionally.
An exploit on the other Hand is something that has unintentionally slipped into the game and was never intended to be used by any Player and by using an exploit or exploiting a bug you can gain Advantages that Zos did not intend you to have, the same is not true for addons as Zos intends for them to be used and provides Limits as to what they can or cannot do.
I like this talking point -
You state an exploit as,
" Something that unintentionally slipped into the game that was never to be used by any player and by using an exploit or exploiting a bug you gain an advantage."
First of all an exploit could be a numorous amount of things. From giving one personal opinion of an eso exploit shouldn't constitute it's validity.
Giving the fact that ZOS is a business players fail to see the truth. There will always be meta's to sale the next dlc - you say exploits as unintentionally slipped into the game ZOS calls it selling the next dlc. So to use language in a highly manipulative aspect to rally nerfs / buffs or use words as cheese, is just incompetence of l2p.
This game is starting to punish creative and critical thinking skills for mathematical game design.
Edited by WeylandLabs on August 7, 2019 9:44PM0
