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Cheating vs exploits vs addons
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh oh just got an idea that night please both sides. What if instead of a generic statement that exploits are banned, zos takes on the responsibility of maintaining a public list of known exploits that wThorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Jayman1000 wrote: »
And if ZOS changed the TOS to allow exploits, that would not be cheating either. So why don't they do that it would make a lot of cheating go away.
You have to craft unlikely hypotheticals to try to defend your comments. Stick with facts and you will begin to understand why everyone disagrees with your fake definitions.
Ok I'm gonna try. This is tough lol.
Fact 1: add-ons allow for imbalanced gameplay, unless "gameplay" is taken to include the acquisition of the best add-ons. Some might think it is, but I don't buy that personally.
Fact 5: add-ons, even though they are allowed by the TOS and so do not involve any "dishonest" behavior, can still be argued to fall under the umbrella of "unfair" since, as stated in fact 1, they grant advantage to players with better add-ons.
Where are you supposed to get these "Better add-ons" that everyone else cant get? This argument, I don't buy. If your using addons, then your using addons. There are no "Better" addons.
Given that you don't buy it, and I dont buy your argument, I think that we may need to agree to disagree about the addon's as I dont think we will be able to reach common ground here.
Note: My opinion about addons in general is also based on the fact that every major MMO game that I have raided in over the last 15+ years has had addons available for use by the player base. The MMO releases with an API for the users to make addons. and there are normally addons available at game release time for the players to start using with that game. I'm using this as a reference, and not just ESO/ZOS specific.
It's this past history which is why I think of an MMO game and its associated addons as a package deal.
And a lot of people do see add-ons and the game as a package deal. And that's fine. But a couple things to consider. Several have pointed out in this thread:
1. Not all add-ons are available from the most popular sources, such as minion.
2. In fact, it's totally possible for someone who knows the API really well to script up their own ultimate pvp add-on and just keep it for themselves, similar to how the best pvpers might not share the full details of their best builds. Many do, but some don't.
3. Even if all add-ons were available to all users, curating the best possible set of add-ons and getting them all up and running smoothly is actually a kind of intensive process that's almost a meta-game in itself.
Again none of this is a problem if you take the acquisition of add-ons itself as part of the game, and that's just a difference of opinion that, as you say, one would just agree to disagree.
LOL
The only information from the game addons can use is that which Zos chooses. While there are addons that are created that are not provided to everyone, I have some, they are PvE based or more of a different format. Hardly something that can provide one person information that another has no opportunity to get.
I really find it hard to believe anything you say. Not just because of your fake definitions where you try to call the use of addons hacking the game, but I have pointed out very correctly that many of your facts are in fact false. Ironically you stated two of your "facts" were counterfactuals which shows you are aware your points are not even close to being facts.
I will have to say though. it is all great entertainment.1 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear I don’t think AC in 2019 is an exploit.
Implies you think it was an exploit pre 2019.
AC and weaving are an initially unintended side effect of the combat system in that skills, and light attacks operate on individual cool downs, with defensive maneuvers having none for reactive gameplay. Individual cool downs can overlap by that design in the same way that blocking interrupts casting. It isn't a design flaw per se, as each is an independent entity for calculation. Players using it was not exploiting a bug or broken code, but leveraging a combat design quirk... Attempts to mitigate (because you can't fix what isn't broken) ruined the combat fluidity unique to eso. So here we are.
Is it an exploit, was it an exploit? Who really cares - - it isn't now, and we have skills designed for it. That isn't going to change.
The classic and undefeated counter to this is simply of they wanted everyone to AC then just remove the animations. That some are not canceling cause they don’t know how it’s not a skill the games our system teaches you sooo
Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
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Dark Brotherhood Listener: Blade of Argonia
Chaos Dragon-Scale: Draconic Shield Master
Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
Bask-In-My-Light: Warrior of The Light
Forged-In-Dragon-Fire: Pyro Mage
Guardian of The Hist: Light Mender
Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master
For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »
I can understand that I’m in the camp of they couldn’t fix it and called it a feature which lines up more with their history. AC is a kind of cool down if you break the other cool downs and they realize they can’t fix the cool down if they started to just call that a feature would you view it as an exploit?
Something being a feature or an exploit is mutually exclusive. So if Zos decides something is a feature I wont view it as an exploit.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear I don’t think AC in 2019 is an exploit.
Implies you think it was an exploit pre 2019.
AC and weaving are an initially unintended side effect of the combat system in that skills, and light attacks operate on individual cool downs, with defensive maneuvers having none for reactive gameplay. Individual cool downs can overlap by that design in the same way that blocking interrupts casting. It isn't a design flaw per se, as each is an independent entity for calculation. Players using it was not exploiting a bug or broken code, but leveraging a combat design quirk... Attempts to mitigate (because you can't fix what isn't broken) ruined the combat fluidity unique to eso. So here we are.
Is it an exploit, was it an exploit? Who really cares - - it isn't now, and we have skills designed for it. That isn't going to change.
The classic and undefeated counter to this is simply of they wanted everyone to AC then just remove the animations. That some are not canceling cause they don’t know how it’s not a skill the games our system teaches you sooo
It is important to separate the concept of your generalisation of AC. Skill AC and light attack weaving are not the same thing. One is an overlap of individual cool downs where the light attack animation is replaced by the higher priority skill animation, the other is the skill animation cut short for the higher priority player action: defensive or bar swap.
Game explains weaving on load screens. Psijic weapon skill is literally a teaching aid for weaving.
Skill animations don't need to be removed, just shortened to consistent .9s - - they don't all overrun the gcd, so most people don't block cancel; swap cancel, yes. Again for reactive, fast paced combat. Why wait 1second to swap your skill bar, gcd is still in effect. You can't beat it with AC.
People who don't do it, usually either choose not to in false protest, or don't know how. The number of converts once they get it would likely astound you.
Edited by mairwen85 on August 9, 2019 6:28AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear I don’t think AC in 2019 is an exploit.
Implies you think it was an exploit pre 2019.
AC and weaving are an initially unintended side effect of the combat system in that skills, and light attacks operate on individual cool downs, with defensive maneuvers having none for reactive gameplay. Individual cool downs can overlap by that design in the same way that blocking interrupts casting. It isn't a design flaw per se, as each is an independent entity for calculation. Players using it was not exploiting a bug or broken code, but leveraging a combat design quirk... Attempts to mitigate (because you can't fix what isn't broken) ruined the combat fluidity unique to eso. So here we are.
Is it an exploit, was it an exploit? Who really cares - - it isn't now, and we have skills designed for it. That isn't going to change.
The classic and undefeated counter to this is simply of they wanted everyone to AC then just remove the animations. That some are not canceling cause they don’t know how it’s not a skill the games our system teaches you sooo
AC and weaving are not the same thing.
While you are technically correct, your sentence here, is very misleading.
AC convers much more than weaving, but weaving is very much AC. Weaving is done because AC exists. So weaving is very much AC. That is a very solid fact.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear I don’t think AC in 2019 is an exploit.
Implies you think it was an exploit pre 2019.
AC and weaving are an initially unintended side effect of the combat system in that skills, and light attacks operate on individual cool downs, with defensive maneuvers having none for reactive gameplay. Individual cool downs can overlap by that design in the same way that blocking interrupts casting. It isn't a design flaw per se, as each is an independent entity for calculation. Players using it was not exploiting a bug or broken code, but leveraging a combat design quirk... Attempts to mitigate (because you can't fix what isn't broken) ruined the combat fluidity unique to eso. So here we are.
Is it an exploit, was it an exploit? Who really cares - - it isn't now, and we have skills designed for it. That isn't going to change.
The classic and undefeated counter to this is simply of they wanted everyone to AC then just remove the animations. That some are not canceling cause they don’t know how it’s not a skill the games our system teaches you sooo
AC and weaving are not the same thing.
While you are technically correct, your sentence here, is very misleading.
AC convers much more than weaving, but weaving is very much AC. Weaving is done because AC exists. So weaving is very much AC. That is a very solid fact.
Only in that weaving partially cancels the light attack animation. I can agree on that point. What I'm making reference to is how many mistakenly equate skill animation cancelling to light attack animation cancelling. I'll go back and specify in my post. Thank you.0 -
Hotdog_23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭On console so I really don't have a say in this fight but for sh*ts and giggles the way I see add-ons is handholding. Meaning you get a lot of help and QOL improvements over the console. Maybe unfair treatment for all but not cheating.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear I don’t think AC in 2019 is an exploit.
Implies you think it was an exploit pre 2019.
AC and weaving are an initially unintended side effect of the combat system in that skills, and light attacks operate on individual cool downs, with defensive maneuvers having none for reactive gameplay. Individual cool downs can overlap by that design in the same way that blocking interrupts casting. It isn't a design flaw per se, as each is an independent entity for calculation. Players using it was not exploiting a bug or broken code, but leveraging a combat design quirk... Attempts to mitigate (because you can't fix what isn't broken) ruined the combat fluidity unique to eso. So here we are.
Is it an exploit, was it an exploit? Who really cares - - it isn't now, and we have skills designed for it. That isn't going to change.
The classic and undefeated counter to this is simply of they wanted everyone to AC then just remove the animations. That some are not canceling cause they don’t know how it’s not a skill the games our system teaches you sooo
AC and weaving are not the same thing.
While you are technically correct, your sentence here, is very misleading.
AC convers much more than weaving, but weaving is very much AC. Weaving is done because AC exists. So weaving is very much AC. That is a very solid fact.
Only in that weaving partially cancels the light attack animation.
Any AC only partially cancels the animation. AC is AC plain and simple. I edited out the rest of your comment because your premise is false as I just pointed out.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear I don’t think AC in 2019 is an exploit.
Implies you think it was an exploit pre 2019.
AC and weaving are an initially unintended side effect of the combat system in that skills, and light attacks operate on individual cool downs, with defensive maneuvers having none for reactive gameplay. Individual cool downs can overlap by that design in the same way that blocking interrupts casting. It isn't a design flaw per se, as each is an independent entity for calculation. Players using it was not exploiting a bug or broken code, but leveraging a combat design quirk... Attempts to mitigate (because you can't fix what isn't broken) ruined the combat fluidity unique to eso. So here we are.
Is it an exploit, was it an exploit? Who really cares - - it isn't now, and we have skills designed for it. That isn't going to change.
The classic and undefeated counter to this is simply of they wanted everyone to AC then just remove the animations. That some are not canceling cause they don’t know how it’s not a skill the games our system teaches you sooo
AC and weaving are not the same thing.
While you are technically correct, your sentence here, is very misleading.
AC convers much more than weaving, but weaving is very much AC. Weaving is done because AC exists. So weaving is very much AC. That is a very solid fact.
Only in that weaving partially cancels the light attack animation.
Any AC only partially cancels the animation. AC is AC plain and simple. I edited out the rest of your comment because your premise is false as I just pointed out.
I'm not disagreeing with you. They are at a granular level the same thing. Essentially: overriding actions by assigned priority - - but in execution they function somewhat to different ends. I am, I suppose, splitting hairs...
But back to main point. It isn't an exploit.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear I don’t think AC in 2019 is an exploit.
Implies you think it was an exploit pre 2019.
AC and weaving are an initially unintended side effect of the combat system in that skills, and light attacks operate on individual cool downs, with defensive maneuvers having none for reactive gameplay. Individual cool downs can overlap by that design in the same way that blocking interrupts casting. It isn't a design flaw per se, as each is an independent entity for calculation. Players using it was not exploiting a bug or broken code, but leveraging a combat design quirk... Attempts to mitigate (because you can't fix what isn't broken) ruined the combat fluidity unique to eso. So here we are.
Is it an exploit, was it an exploit? Who really cares - - it isn't now, and we have skills designed for it. That isn't going to change.
The classic and undefeated counter to this is simply of they wanted everyone to AC then just remove the animations. That some are not canceling cause they don’t know how it’s not a skill the games our system teaches you sooo
AC and weaving are not the same thing.
While you are technically correct, your sentence here, is very misleading.
AC convers much more than weaving, but weaving is very much AC. Weaving is done because AC exists. So weaving is very much AC. That is a very solid fact.
Only in that weaving partially cancels the light attack animation.
Any AC only partially cancels the animation. AC is AC plain and simple. I edited out the rest of your comment because your premise is false as I just pointed out.
I'm not disagreeing with you. They are at a granular level the same thing. Essentially: overriding actions by assigned priority - - but in execution they function somewhat to different ends. I am, I suppose, splitting hairs...
But back to main point. It isn't an exploit.
True, it is not an exploit just as the use of addons are not cheating/exploiting and certainly not hacking the game. Zos literally requested players to create them, sanctions them and controls what they can access and do. Things OP seems to not understand.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear I don’t think AC in 2019 is an exploit.
Implies you think it was an exploit pre 2019.
AC and weaving are an initially unintended side effect of the combat system in that skills, and light attacks operate on individual cool downs, with defensive maneuvers having none for reactive gameplay. Individual cool downs can overlap by that design in the same way that blocking interrupts casting. It isn't a design flaw per se, as each is an independent entity for calculation. Players using it was not exploiting a bug or broken code, but leveraging a combat design quirk... Attempts to mitigate (because you can't fix what isn't broken) ruined the combat fluidity unique to eso. So here we are.
Is it an exploit, was it an exploit? Who really cares - - it isn't now, and we have skills designed for it. That isn't going to change.
The classic and undefeated counter to this is simply of they wanted everyone to AC then just remove the animations. That some are not canceling cause they don’t know how it’s not a skill the games our system teaches you sooo
AC and weaving are not the same thing.
While you are technically correct, your sentence here, is very misleading.
AC convers much more than weaving, but weaving is very much AC. Weaving is done because AC exists. So weaving is very much AC. That is a very solid fact.
Only in that weaving partially cancels the light attack animation.
Any AC only partially cancels the animation. AC is AC plain and simple. I edited out the rest of your comment because your premise is false as I just pointed out.
I'm not disagreeing with you. They are at a granular level the same thing. Essentially: overriding actions by assigned priority - - but in execution they function somewhat to different ends. I am, I suppose, splitting hairs...
But back to main point. It isn't an exploit.
True, it is not an exploit just as the use of addons are not cheating/exploiting and certainly not hacking the game. Zos literally requested players to create them, sanctions them and controls what they can access and do. Things OP seems to not understand.
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Gandrhulf_Harbard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This discussion has been going on since 2014. ZOS have said basically nothing on this topic except to confirm that animation cancelling is not considered an exploit.
Actually ZOS originally confirmed that Animation Cancelling WAS an Exploit.
The spent 6 months resources to figure out they couldn't take it out of the game.
So re-branded it as a "feature".
All The BestThose memories come back to haunt me, they haunt me like a curse.
Is a dream a lie if it don't come true, or is it something worse.2 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear I don’t think AC in 2019 is an exploit.
Implies you think it was an exploit pre 2019.
AC and weaving are an initially unintended side effect of the combat system in that skills, and light attacks operate on individual cool downs, with defensive maneuvers having none for reactive gameplay. Individual cool downs can overlap by that design in the same way that blocking interrupts casting. It isn't a design flaw per se, as each is an independent entity for calculation. Players using it was not exploiting a bug or broken code, but leveraging a combat design quirk... Attempts to mitigate (because you can't fix what isn't broken) ruined the combat fluidity unique to eso. So here we are.
Is it an exploit, was it an exploit? Who really cares - - it isn't now, and we have skills designed for it. That isn't going to change.
The classic and undefeated counter to this is simply of they wanted everyone to AC then just remove the animations. That some are not canceling cause they don’t know how it’s not a skill the games our system teaches you sooo
AC and weaving are not the same thing.
While you are technically correct, your sentence here, is very misleading.
AC convers much more than weaving, but weaving is very much AC. Weaving is done because AC exists. So weaving is very much AC. That is a very solid fact.
Only in that weaving partially cancels the light attack animation.
Any AC only partially cancels the animation. AC is AC plain and simple. I edited out the rest of your comment because your premise is false as I just pointed out.
I'm not disagreeing with you. They are at a granular level the same thing. Essentially: overriding actions by assigned priority - - but in execution they function somewhat to different ends. I am, I suppose, splitting hairs...
But back to main point. It isn't an exploit.
True, it is not an exploit just as the use of addons are not cheating/exploiting and certainly not hacking the game. Zos literally requested players to create them, sanctions them and controls what they can access and do. Things OP seems to not understand.
I really should not let this get under my skin but it is. Your putting words in my mouth. I never said add-ons are "hacking." I never said add-ons are cheating, i said I certain add-on capacities that gave a sufficiently large advantage *should* be considered cheating even though I understand they currently aren't and never said they were. I also never said zos didn't ask people to create add-ons, or doesn't allow them. I also never said zos doesn't control the api. Each of these points has been acknowledged and extensively discussed.
The essence of what I've tried to argue is: "Current rules facilitate imbalanced play and punish players for things that don't facilitate imbalanced play. Rules should discourage imbalanced play. Therefore rules should be changed." You have responded as though I said "The current rules say addons are cheating and exploits are allowed." As a result I've been bewildered by every post you've made. From my OP, I have bolded the terms you seem to not understand:Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage. Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella, but typically we're talking about things that either modify player movement, player stats, character actions, or provide information that is meant to be hidden. Still as far as I know, this is the most serious cheating grey area. Is a mod that gives you cool down timers, or alerts you when a dungeon mechanic goes off, cheating? I actually think it should be. Players who don't download that third party software to manipulate the information the game gives them are at a genuine disadvantage.
Exploiting= using the standard ESO software & UI, utilizing an either unintended consequences of ESO code or an overt coding mistake, in a way that improves competitiveness but is open to anyone with an ESO account. For a long time weaving was considered in this category though it's now on firmly "legal" ground.
Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. {this statement *could* be taken to be calling add-ons hacking. I didn't anticipate this particular misunderstanding or objection, but i hope its clear i was referring more generally to third party code, such as cheat engines. Add-ons are not against the current rules. As we've been over a thousand times.}. In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is). But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. { again here I see I got a little sloppy, as you've pointed out add-ons don't modify the "base" game, instead they modify more peripheral functions.}
How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is?
I did not anticipate such a massive misunderstanding. But if my point really was "add-ons are cheating according to the current rules" that would be a totally bizzare thing to say and just be a gross misunderstanding of the TOS. After all this discussion however, you can't possibly think that's where I'm coming from, even if you did initially.
From my side I keep getting the impression that all you care about is the set of rules zos has already established. If everyone thought like that no rules or laws could ever be changed because no one would be allowed to consider alternatives since that's just "vague hypotheticals" and not facts. Which, by the way, is not what the word counterfactual means. A counterfactual is a conditional statement of the form "if A were true, then B would be true." As such they can be either logically & factually true or false. They are fundamental to logic and essential to human reason & cognition, so I'd recommend them.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@worrallj
I am going to just put this right here. It is you specifically agreeing your OP is in fact saying the use of addons is hacking the game. You say would update that statement if you could Since you can and have chosen not to I made a very fair and accurate comment.MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could.
Anyone can look at the history there to see what you replied to, but just in case it is hard to follow I will provide a link to that specific reply so it is easier to follow.
Now, you were saying?Edited by idk on August 9, 2019 9:02PM1 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭Add one help ZOS - you think they couldkendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »Just to be clear I don’t think AC in 2019 is an exploit.
Implies you think it was an exploit pre 2019.
AC and weaving are an initially unintended side effect of the combat system in that skills, and light attacks operate on individual cool downs, with defensive maneuvers having none for reactive gameplay. Individual cool downs can overlap by that design in the same way that blocking interrupts casting. It isn't a design flaw per se, as each is an independent entity for calculation. Players using it was not exploiting a bug or broken code, but leveraging a combat design quirk... Attempts to mitigate (because you can't fix what isn't broken) ruined the combat fluidity unique to eso. So here we are.
Is it an exploit, was it an exploit? Who really cares - - it isn't now, and we have skills designed for it. That isn't going to change.
The classic and undefeated counter to this is simply of they wanted everyone to AC then just remove the animations. That some are not canceling cause they don’t know how it’s not a skill the games our system teaches you sooo
AC and weaving are not the same thing.
While you are technically correct, your sentence here, is very misleading.
AC convers much more than weaving, but weaving is very much AC. Weaving is done because AC exists. So weaving is very much AC. That is a very solid fact.
Only in that weaving partially cancels the light attack animation.
Any AC only partially cancels the animation. AC is AC plain and simple. I edited out the rest of your comment because your premise is false as I just pointed out.
I'm not disagreeing with you. They are at a granular level the same thing. Essentially: overriding actions by assigned priority - - but in execution they function somewhat to different ends. I am, I suppose, splitting hairs...
But back to main point. It isn't an exploit.
True, it is not an exploit just as the use of addons are not cheating/exploiting and certainly not hacking the game. Zos literally requested players to create them, sanctions them and controls what they can access and do. Things OP seems to not understand.
I really should not let this get under my skin but it is. Your putting words in my mouth. I never said add-ons are "hacking." I never said add-ons are cheating, i said I certain add-on capacities that gave a sufficiently large advantage *should* be considered cheating even though I understand they currently aren't and never said they were. I also never said zos didn't ask people to create add-ons, or doesn't allow them. I also never said zos doesn't control the api. Each of these points has been acknowledged and extensively discussed.
The essence of what I've tried to argue is: "Current rules facilitate imbalanced play and punish players for things that don't facilitate imbalanced play. Rules should discourage imbalanced play. Therefore rules should be changed." You have responded as though I said "The current rules say addons are cheating and exploits are allowed." As a result I've been bewildered by every post you've made. From my OP, I have bolded the terms you seem to not understand:Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage. Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella, but typically we're talking about things that either modify player movement, player stats, character actions, or provide information that is meant to be hidden. Still as far as I know, this is the most serious cheating grey area. Is a mod that gives you cool down timers, or alerts you when a dungeon mechanic goes off, cheating? I actually think it should be. Players who don't download that third party software to manipulate the information the game gives them are at a genuine disadvantage.
Exploiting= using the standard ESO software & UI, utilizing an either unintended consequences of ESO code or an overt coding mistake, in a way that improves competitiveness but is open to anyone with an ESO account. For a long time weaving was considered in this category though it's now on firmly "legal" ground.
Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. {this statement *could* be taken to be calling add-ons hacking. I didn't anticipate this particular misunderstanding or objection, but i hope its clear i was referring more generally to third party code, such as cheat engines. Add-ons are not against the current rules. As we've been over a thousand times.}. In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is). But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. { again here I see I got a little sloppy, as you've pointed out add-ons don't modify the "base" game, instead they modify more peripheral functions.}
How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is?
I did not anticipate such a massive misunderstanding. But if my point really was "add-ons are cheating according to the current rules" that would be a totally bizzare thing to say and just be a gross misunderstanding of the TOS. After all this discussion however, you can't possibly think that's where I'm coming from, even if you did initially.
From my side I keep getting the impression that all you care about is the set of rules zos has already established. If everyone thought like that no rules or laws could ever be changed because no one would be allowed to consider alternatives since that's just "vague hypotheticals" and not facts. Which, by the way, is not what the word counterfactual means. A counterfactual is a conditional statement of the form "if A were true, then B would be true." As such they can be either logically & factually true or false. They are fundamental to logic and essential to human reason & cognition, so I'd recommend them.
Apparently that's what people do now is misunderstand. If media can't even define what racism is, why would this forum section be any different. 😂2 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭@worrallj
I am going to just put this right here. It is you specifically agreeing your OP is in fact saying the use of addons is hacking the game. You say would update that statement if you could Since you can and have chosen not to I made a very fair and accurate comment.MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could.
Anyone can look at the history there to see what you replied to, but just in case it is hard to follow I will provide a link to that specific reply so it is easier to follow.
Now, you were saying?
I finished what I was saying.
You didn't respond to it. You just pointed out something innocuous that my post already acknowledged ad nauseum:Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. {this statement *could* be taken to be calling add-ons hacking. I didn't anticipate this particular misunderstanding or objection, but i hope its clear i was referring more generally to third party code, such as cheat engines. Add-ons are not against the current rules. As we've been over a thousand times.}.I did not anticipate such a massive misunderstanding. But if my point really was "add-ons are cheating according to the current rules" that would be a totally bizzare thing to say and just be a gross misunderstanding of the TOS. After all this discussion however, you can't possibly think that's where I'm coming from, even if you did initially.
I didn't edit the OP because hostile commentors like yourself will accuse me of trying to cover up what I actually said. I've already been accused several times by you and at least one other of lying about what I said.0 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »
I can understand that I’m in the camp of they couldn’t fix it and called it a feature which lines up more with their history. AC is a kind of cool down if you break the other cool downs and they realize they can’t fix the cool down if they started to just call that a feature would you view it as an exploit?
Something being a feature or an exploit is mutually exclusive. So if Zos decides something is a feature I wont view it as an exploit.
The issue is that when something crops up that's unintended ZOS has a tendency of calling it a feature.
Case in point: When people pointed out you can horse sprint forever if you hold down sprint well past out of endurance... they claimed it was a "feature" of horses and that the different varieties of animals mounts would all have "a feature". Turns out... that was all bs.. it was just something broken they didn't bother fixing and proclaimed a feature.2 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »
I can understand that I’m in the camp of they couldn’t fix it and called it a feature which lines up more with their history. AC is a kind of cool down if you break the other cool downs and they realize they can’t fix the cool down if they started to just call that a feature would you view it as an exploit?
Something being a feature or an exploit is mutually exclusive. So if Zos decides something is a feature I wont view it as an exploit.
The issue is that when something crops up that's unintended ZOS has a tendency of calling it a feature.
Case in point: When people pointed out you can horse sprint forever if you hold down sprint well past out of endurance... they claimed it was a "feature" of horses and that the different varieties of animals mounts would all have "a feature". Turns out... that was all bs.. it was just something broken they didn't bother fixing and proclaimed a feature.
The big problem is that they often don't comment on these things at all, so it's just up to the players to make up their own minds individually. Even if they do comment, the majority of players are never going to hear about it. People generally expect video games to enforce their own rules. But in the MMO world and specifically ESO, everyone's playing by a different set of rules because the ref is staying home.Edited by worrallj on August 9, 2019 10:11PM0 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »
I can understand that I’m in the camp of they couldn’t fix it and called it a feature which lines up more with their history. AC is a kind of cool down if you break the other cool downs and they realize they can’t fix the cool down if they started to just call that a feature would you view it as an exploit?
Something being a feature or an exploit is mutually exclusive. So if Zos decides something is a feature I wont view it as an exploit.
The issue is that when something crops up that's unintended ZOS has a tendency of calling it a feature.
Case in point: When people pointed out you can horse sprint forever if you hold down sprint well past out of endurance... they claimed it was a "feature" of horses and that the different varieties of animals mounts would all have "a feature". Turns out... that was all bs.. it was just something broken they didn't bother fixing and proclaimed a feature.
Is it me or it this getting more entertaining ?
Nerf Features 😂0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@worrallj
I am going to just put this right here. It is you specifically agreeing your OP is in fact saying the use of addons is hacking the game. You say would update that statement if you could Since you can and have chosen not to I made a very fair and accurate comment.MojaveHeld wrote: »Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.
I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,
You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.
To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.
Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.
Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.
Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could.
Anyone can look at the history there to see what you replied to, but just in case it is hard to follow I will provide a link to that specific reply so it is easier to follow.
Now, you were saying?
I finished what I was saying.
You didn't respond to it. You just pointed out something innocuous that my post already acknowledged ad nauseum:Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. {this statement *could* be taken to be calling add-ons hacking. I didn't anticipate this particular misunderstanding or objection, but i hope its clear i was referring more generally to third party code, such as cheat engines. Add-ons are not against the current rules. As we've been over a thousand times.}.I did not anticipate such a massive misunderstanding. But if my point really was "add-ons are cheating according to the current rules" that would be a totally bizzare thing to say and just be a gross misunderstanding of the TOS. After all this discussion however, you can't possibly think that's where I'm coming from, even if you did initially.
I didn't edit the OP because hostile commentors like yourself will accuse me of trying to cover up what I actually said. I've already been accused several times by you and at least one other of lying about what I said.
My point was clear and accurate. Considering you have still chosen to not edit your OP it still specifically indicates you are saying the use of addons are hacking. To suggest otherwise is very dishonest.
You now falsely accuse myself and others of being hostile when all we have done is point out how wrong you doctored up definitions by using solid facts. Your replies are riddled with hypotheticals that are irrelevant to how the game plays and with statements you label as facts but you also specifically acknowledge are based on a false condition because you categorized them as counterfactuals.
It is as though you are desperately trying to spin a story to force it to fit and wonder why so many see through the veil as you have stated surprise at how few agree with you.
So if pointing out how your opinion lacks basis and using facts to support my comments is hostile, then so be it. I am really surprised you think many would have agree with such fabrications.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »
I can understand that I’m in the camp of they couldn’t fix it and called it a feature which lines up more with their history. AC is a kind of cool down if you break the other cool downs and they realize they can’t fix the cool down if they started to just call that a feature would you view it as an exploit?
Something being a feature or an exploit is mutually exclusive. So if Zos decides something is a feature I wont view it as an exploit.
The issue is that when something crops up that's unintended ZOS has a tendency of calling it a feature.
Case in point: When people pointed out you can horse sprint forever if you hold down sprint well past out of endurance... they claimed it was a "feature" of horses and that the different varieties of animals mounts would all have "a feature". Turns out... that was all bs.. it was just something broken they didn't bother fixing and proclaimed a feature.
It has been known since beta that the stamina is merely required to get the sprint started. That the draw back of running out of stamina is you get dismounted. So it is a risk one takes rather than the horse can no longer sprint.
However, this has nothing to do with the false claims made in the OP of this thread, that the use of addons is cheating. We now for a fact addons are not cheating and Zos has been very vocal about this as they are the ones who asked players to make them. They have also been part of the conversation of what should and should not be allowed with addons.0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Just downloaded the bandit UI add-on. Feels like I just hit the easy mode button on vma. Wish I'd known about this add-on years ago.1
-
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »
I can understand that I’m in the camp of they couldn’t fix it and called it a feature which lines up more with their history. AC is a kind of cool down if you break the other cool downs and they realize they can’t fix the cool down if they started to just call that a feature would you view it as an exploit?
Something being a feature or an exploit is mutually exclusive. So if Zos decides something is a feature I wont view it as an exploit.
The issue is that when something crops up that's unintended ZOS has a tendency of calling it a feature.
Case in point: When people pointed out you can horse sprint forever if you hold down sprint well past out of endurance... they claimed it was a "feature" of horses and that the different varieties of animals mounts would all have "a feature". Turns out... that was all bs.. it was just something broken they didn't bother fixing and proclaimed a feature.
It has been known since beta that the stamina is merely required to get the sprint started. That the draw back of running out of stamina is you get dismounted. So it is a risk one takes rather than the horse can no longer sprint.
However, this has nothing to do with the false claims made in the OP of this thread, that the use of addons is cheating. We now for a fact addons are not cheating and Zos has been very vocal about this as they are the ones who asked players to make them. They have also been part of the conversation of what should and should not be allowed with addons.
I have specifically said TO YOU over and over and vociferously as possible that add-ons are not cheating according to current rules, and I never said they were. What is it you don't understand about that? Stop lying about my opinions. It's slander.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Truthfully, addons do give a player an edge: having all buffs/debuffs on my screen in immediate view rather than a subscreen does aid me; being able to save CP allocations for recall at thr touch of a button does help; being able to switch out gear and skill load outs instantly between fights is a great boon; having all locations, lore books, sky shards, Psijic rifts, etc marked before discovery reduces the grind significantly - - yes, addons do provide an edge. However, available to all on pc and permitted by zos, they are not exploiting, nor providing cheats. I'd argue they are community editions that in many cases fill the gaps that zos left in the product. So many should be built in functionality in some form. Especially from a console player perspective.
Not cheating, but certainly an advantage in some cases.
Edit to add:
From the Oxford English dictionary:
counterfactual
adjective
1.
relating to or expressing what has not happened or is not the case.
noun
1.
a counterfactual conditional statement (e.g. If kangaroos had no tails, they would topple over ).
I get where you are aiming for with your comments, but even under the stated scenarios, the premise is false. Seeing as the basis is confirmed that addons are allowed and the data that drives them is controlled, no statement toward illicit or exploitative use can be formed.
I do agree the game embraces, even rewards imbalanced play, but there is more than a public api that causes that result.Edited by mairwen85 on August 10, 2019 1:42PM0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Truthfully, addons do give a player an edge: having all buffs/debuffs on my screen in immediate view rather than a subscreen does aid me; being able to save CP allocations for recall at thr touch of a button does help; being able to switch out gear and skill load outs instantly between fights is a great boon; having all locations, lore books, sky shards, Psijic rifts, etc marked before discovery reduces the grind significantly - - yes, addons do provide an edge. However, available to all on pc and permitted by zos, they are not exploiting, nor providing cheats. I'd argue they are community editions that in many cases fill the gaps that zos left in the product. So many should be built in functionality in some form. Especially from a console player perspective.
Not cheating, but certainly an advantage in some cases.
Your right most just reduce grind times, which is an advantage but I see what people mean by saying it's just QoL. You can spend cash to get similar effects (which is a whole other discussion!) There's also some that actually make combat itself easier, including in pvp where things are most competitive. I just discovered one today that's really making vma a lot easier, and I've been collecting add-ons for some time.
It's true they're available to everyone, but it's kinda the wild west. One thing I said earlier is getting the best set of add-ons is almost a "meta game" surrounding the actual game itself. Not necessarily anything wrong with that, but that's why I put it on a continuum with less legal things of a similar nature. I probably should have left that out though, because what I really wanted to talk about was the distinction between exploits and cheat engines, and I only mentioned add-ons to contrast with exploits, trying to argue exploits are more "democratic."1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The meta game of who has the best addons is exactly what happens when you leave such gaping holes in your product UI.
I like that as players we can customize our gameplay experience and most QoL addons I use are enabled during solo play. Combat specific addons enabled during group play.
I would like zos to take the top 10, work into actual game features and publish so that console gets the same - - in many ways zos should see addons as proposal functionality.1 -
rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »
I can understand that I’m in the camp of they couldn’t fix it and called it a feature which lines up more with their history. AC is a kind of cool down if you break the other cool downs and they realize they can’t fix the cool down if they started to just call that a feature would you view it as an exploit?
Something being a feature or an exploit is mutually exclusive. So if Zos decides something is a feature I wont view it as an exploit.
The issue is that when something crops up that's unintended ZOS has a tendency of calling it a feature.
Case in point: When people pointed out you can horse sprint forever if you hold down sprint well past out of endurance... they claimed it was a "feature" of horses and that the different varieties of animals mounts would all have "a feature". Turns out... that was all bs.. it was just something broken they didn't bother fixing and proclaimed a feature.
It has been known since beta that the stamina is merely required to get the sprint started. That the draw back of running out of stamina is you get dismounted. So it is a risk one takes rather than the horse can no longer sprint.
However, this has nothing to do with the false claims made in the OP of this thread, that the use of addons is cheating. We now for a fact addons are not cheating and Zos has been very vocal about this as they are the ones who asked players to make them. They have also been part of the conversation of what should and should not be allowed with addons.
I was just commenting on how unintended seems to morph into a feature when they don't have a solution or don't intend to address it.
Addons really can't be considered cheating... but they have gone and crippled addons that had unintended "features" before.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rfennell_ESO wrote: »Sanguinor2 wrote: »kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »
I can understand that I’m in the camp of they couldn’t fix it and called it a feature which lines up more with their history. AC is a kind of cool down if you break the other cool downs and they realize they can’t fix the cool down if they started to just call that a feature would you view it as an exploit?
Something being a feature or an exploit is mutually exclusive. So if Zos decides something is a feature I wont view it as an exploit.
The issue is that when something crops up that's unintended ZOS has a tendency of calling it a feature.
Case in point: When people pointed out you can horse sprint forever if you hold down sprint well past out of endurance... they claimed it was a "feature" of horses and that the different varieties of animals mounts would all have "a feature". Turns out... that was all bs.. it was just something broken they didn't bother fixing and proclaimed a feature.
It has been known since beta that the stamina is merely required to get the sprint started. That the draw back of running out of stamina is you get dismounted. So it is a risk one takes rather than the horse can no longer sprint.
However, this has nothing to do with the false claims made in the OP of this thread, that the use of addons is cheating. We now for a fact addons are not cheating and Zos has been very vocal about this as they are the ones who asked players to make them. They have also been part of the conversation of what should and should not be allowed with addons.
I have specifically said TO YOU over and over and vociferously as possible that add-ons are not cheating according to current rules, and I never said they were. What is it you don't understand about that? Stop lying about my opinions. It's slander.
As I stated, the OP still claims it is. As I pointed out you said you would change it if you could, you can, and you have chosen not to.
Until you do those comments do stand as your solid point. Also, you have really only said in a follow up that the use of addons is not hacking. iirc you have not said they are not cheating in reply to me though I might have missed itl
Also, stop calling me a liar when I use your own words to prove my point. Edit the OP if you have really changed your stance that much. No excuses.1
