i need addons for finding books and to locate skyshards, i hate to go window mode to online website to look up back and forth over and over, because i forget . it was meant to keep track what you did and find missing items, and fishing list is helpful.

Shokasegambit1 wrote: »

Here's a thought create a poll asking would you still play eso is you didn't have Add-ons ?

Then separate the trash 👍

i played 3 =yrs on console before moving to the PC, so i am used to both, if i had the choice i'd stick with add-ons its a QOL thing

If you have add ons telling you when a mechanic is going to happen, 5 seconds before there's any sort of tell/animation, and who it's going to affect, it's probably a tad...cheesey.

I'm looking at you vashm.

agegarton wrote: »

Interesting opinion in the OP post.

ZoS terms & conditions says both exploiting and how you have described “cheating” are effectively the same thing - and both are considered unacceptable.

Now, the tricky area is, what’s an exploit? If I keep killing a boss that is broken and drops 1m gold each time, ZoS will say that’s an exploit. They have done so in the past in similar circumstances and placed sanctions on accounts. But if I create an essentially unkillable character because I know about build options that create unintended consequences, it’s not an exploit.

Seems to me that the definition of exploit is that it’s something ZoS knows about.

You're on the right track, yeah.

Any interaction, whether on purpose or by accident, with unintended features of the game is an exploit. Full stop. No exceptions. It's that simple.

However, whether or not an exploit is acceptable is up to ZoS. If they say it is, it ceases to be an exploit and is instead considered a feature since it is now intended to work that way. And even if an exploit is determined unacceptable, ZoS determines the punishment for using it, ranging from no punishment whatsoever to however harsh they desire.

In short, it's not that the definition of "exploit" in the context of ESO is unclear, it's that how exploits will be handled is entirely up to ZoS' whims. And rightfully so, I might add.

Ultimately, if you really think about it, that's what people are always confused about. Many people seem to confuse "whether or not something is an exploit" with "whether or not people are punished for using it", yet those two concepts are NOT mutually exclusive. You will typically only get punished for using game mechanics if it's an exploit, but you don't necessarily have to be punished for it to be an exploit.

worrallj wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players !

As I don't play competitively it doesn't bother me if other players use addons or cheat/exploit (although I play on PC I do neither), I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains. Each to his own, however, subject to the ToS being fully enforced.

I played for about 3 years on PC without any add-on and I still didn't consider it cheating.
Can we also stop with the idea that add-ons allow you to play the game in unintended ways? Any function or resource available to the add-ons was intentionally put there by ZOS. How is it unintended?

Didn't say it was unintended, said it was unfair advantage for people who don't want to install third party software. There's a lot of people who seem to equate "zos intended it this way" with "it's not cheating/it's fair." I'm taking a very different line and talking about exogenous (obtained outside normal gameplay) sources of player advantage.

I was responding to the

I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains.

Part of the comment I quoted.

But to respond to you directly. What unfair advantage? One, everyone on PC has access to add-ons, it's not like you have to pay money for it. Two, anything you can do with add-ons you can do without.

Ah yeah sorry I took it as a response to me but it wasn't.

This may contradict something I wrote earlier, but I'm not really arguing add-ons should be considered cheating, I just think they seem a lot more like cheating than exploits do. Any Add-on you download isn't actually supported by zos (even though the API is), and they absolutely give advantage over someone who's not running them. That really seems more squirly to me than figuring out a quirk of the base game that you can take advantage of.

Maybe it shows my age, but back in the day when games would get released and then that was the game for all time (no patch once a month changing everything), it was a mark of accomplishment to eek out every little quirk and corner that could be cut through sheer perspicacity and trial and error (assuming it didn't COMPLETELY break the game). Now that kind of in-game hunting for advantage is often considered cheating, but installing a script in the background to override the base UI is considered normal play. It just seems backwards to me.

Addons give you no benefit in combat out over an better interface who is easier to read in combat and give the information you need. Action duration indicator who show on the bar how long an timed effect have left is one, so easy to read.
For healers its nice to know how much magic and stamina people have left but an DD don't need this much.
You have some who give warning about some mechanics like webspinners in vMA.

Something like combat metrics is very nice to learn rotation and testing out builds.

The rest of the mods are quality of life stuff who help with inventory, trading and crafting.
The API limits that stuff goes out and that sort of input can be sent an mod can not activate skills or move your character but it can use menus pretty freely and do stuff like automatically craft items.

---

Exploits are different, and yes they have to be patched out of an multi player game or they can easy break it totally or at least change how the game is played. Imagine TES 3 Morrowind as an multiplayer game with all its exploits like fortify intelligence potions.

Lots of stuff get changed simply because it end up being to strong or because it was abused to much like random fungal 1 who was an old exploit who got patched as people started doing it with pugs.

No one can say what's what for sure.

So everyone who does any of those should be banned. (Sorry PC)

idk wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.

I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,

You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.

To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.

worrallj wrote: »

Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.

Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.

Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.

Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

idk wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.

I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,

You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.

To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.

worrallj wrote: »

Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.

Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.

Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.

Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?

to Define Cheating is very simple.
1, player using non-standard methods to create an advantage or disadvantage beyond normal gameplay, in order to make the game easier for them, or harder for others

2, programs that emulate human behavior to perform actions (BOTS & MACROS, repetitive or not) that enable advantages to be achieved.

3, modifying the game's data while it is running, modifying the memory values where the game keeps its status information

4, modification of the game's executable code while it is running, for example with the use of POKE commands

5, Editing a saved game offers an indirect way to modify game data. By modifying a file in persistent storage.
think i have covered everything there simply

Add-ons meet criteria of 1 & 2, although 2 is not in particularly dramatic ways. They are methods beyond normal gameplay to make the gameplay easier, and they can emulate human behavior (rapidly equipping items/skills, etc).

idk wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

idk wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Addons are in no way whatsoever cheating. Cheat engines actually alter the way the game functions in order to break the parameters of what is and isn't possible to do in the game. Addons do not, they simply give the user more information to easily see what's occurring within the parameters of what's already possible. Equating hacking the game to let yourself fly over keep walls is in no way whatsoever comparable to allowing you to clearly see your cooldown timers. The fact that you tried to equate them invalidated your entire post, as it shows you were being dishonest and disingenuous from the start. It would be great to have an actual productive discussion about cheating, exploiting, etc. here on the forums, but your post makes that impossible here by being so incredibly dishonest.

I didn't equate add-ons with hacking,

You need to read your own words as you very specifically associated the use of addons with cheating an you defined cheating as manipulating the way the ESO code. That is pretty much calling it hacking.

To manipulate the code does require hacking it do gain unauthorized access to the data. Basically what OP is saying in the quote below. Granted, the entire OP is based on their very significant misunderstanding of everything that is said in the OP.

worrallj wrote: »

Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage.

Note that Zos controls what addons can and cannot do by controlling what information they have access to. Zos has removed access to certain information to close off information they did not want used. So the OP's comments are patently false as we have demonstrated many times in this thread while the OP has not been able to provide anything but smoke and mirrors to try to defend their faulty opinion.

Yes, I know I said I would not be returning but the OP is now trying to twist their own words.

Alright this is fair criticism I see that. I'd amend that if I could. How would you define cheating if you were going to draft new TOS?

It is not for you to draft a new ToS.. You can have your opinion but yours posted here lacks a logical or even rational foundation.

The very fact that addons are sanctioned by Zos and only work because Zos lets them work is the very solid reason that they are not cheating, hacking, or exploiting in the manner those terms are commonly used when referring to gaming..

This is what I've kept running into on this post that I don't get. Seems like people have an almost religious reverence for the ZOS-given commandments of what's allowed, so that even hypotheticals about what might be better are considered anathema.