I'm not here to position add-ons as cheating, but I would contend that as a community PC players do have a significant advantage over console players because of them, Now we don't play head to head so this does not show up directly, but I will contend there are a couple of issues.

First PC will most likely hold all records for competitive completions. When you see the VMA world record you realize that this could never be accomplished on console. Not because of lack of skill but because of lack of addons. The add-ons enable a faster run. Is this cheating I say no, but it does create possibilities for PC that can not happen on console. The add-ons help with dps by showing timers and providing exact warning for mechanics. This makes trials easier for PC players, when the difference between a completion or not is extremely close the PC player with add on will more likely get a completion than the console player. Same goes for difficult achievements.

More concerning is the balance work being done that assumes PC capabilities as the basis. Healing, dps, and tanking at high end is using PC as the bench mark for how to change the game. I recently had a well known player provide insight into a concern I had about upcoming skill change by explaining the simple answer was use two different skill set-ups and switch in between encounters. The assumption being that the nerf or change was not a big deal since it was so simple to switch other skills to handle the situation. Well we on console can not do this with any level of timeliness needed in end game PVE, but I don't think this is taken into account when making changes.

So I don't think its cheating, but I would certainly prefer a uniform set of tools across the platforms so records, times, balance, and achievements were all equally challenging to realize.

worrallj wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players !

As I don't play competitively it doesn't bother me if other players use addons or cheat/exploit (although I play on PC I do neither), I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains. Each to his own, however, subject to the ToS being fully enforced.

I played for about 3 years on PC without any add-on and I still didn't consider it cheating.
Can we also stop with the idea that add-ons allow you to play the game in unintended ways? Any function or resource available to the add-ons was intentionally put there by ZOS. How is it unintended?

Didn't say it was unintended, said it was unfair advantage for people who don't want to install third party software. There's a lot of people who seem to equate "zos intended it this way" with "it's not cheating/it's fair." I'm taking a very different line and talking about exogenous (obtained outside normal gameplay) sources of player advantage.

I was responding to the

I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains.

Part of the comment I quoted.

But to respond to you directly. What unfair advantage? One, everyone on PC has access to add-ons, it's not like you have to pay money for it. Two, anything you can do with add-ons you can do without.

Ah yeah sorry I took it as a response to me but it wasn't.

This may contradict something I wrote earlier, but I'm not really arguing add-ons should be considered cheating, I just think they seem a lot more like cheating than exploits do. Any Add-on you download isn't actually supported by zos (even though the API is), and they absolutely give advantage over someone who's not running them. That really seems more squirly to me than figuring out a quirk of the base game that you can take advantage of.

Maybe it shows my age, but back in the day when games would get released and then that was the game for all time (no patch once a month changing everything), it was a mark of accomplishment to eek out every little quirk and corner that could be cut through sheer perspicacity and trial and error (assuming it didn't COMPLETELY break the game). Now that kind of in-game hunting for advantage is often considered cheating, but installing a script in the background to override the base UI is considered normal play. It just seems backwards to me.

Fair point. I guess that depends on how you see it. I, personally, just see the add-ons as another tool to decipher the game but I can understand you wanting to do all the leg work yourself.

SirAndy wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella, but typically we're talking about things that either modify player movement, player stats, character actions, or provide information that is meant to be hidden.

AddOns can't do any of those things ...

Lies.

I have this secret player stat modifier addon which gives me 3k extra recovery on everything, 20k more stam and magic and has my char at max resist at all time. It is a really cool addon!

idk wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

idk wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

@idk I wouldn't call it splitting hairs. The difference between them as I defined them is like the difference between not calling up your bank when they make an error in your favor verses hacking into their accounts and cleaning them out. Neither is good but I think that's a huge difference.

I put the key point of your comment in bold. it is your definition and I still stand by it is splitting hairs.

I have no idea why you are using hacking into someone's account as an example to defend your comments. That is something that is illegal beyond the boundaries of Zos.

• You run through a dungeon to the next boss, all the trash whiplashes back/evades.
• You find a way to move outside of the intended path of a trial instance to get to the last boss and able to stand where the boss nor any adds can do any damage to you.

Both are considered exploits. The first is not going to get you banned while you are taking a huge risk with the second option. So yes, you are splitting hairs with your definitions. Most exploits that will get you banned are pretty obvious.

One is passive, the other is active. In one case you are actively hacking the system, in essence creating a bug, just for you, where there wasn't one before. In the other case you are using a bug that you didn't put there - zenimax did - and it's available to everyone. That's a HUGE difference.

That sounds more like an excuse someone comes up with to try to justify their actions when they know what they did was wrong.

The people who went outside of the obvious path were doing something active, that would be obvious to any rational thinker was wrong, but they did not have to hack any code. It was a exploit that was cheating.

Those that used either of the two methods to clear vAS+3 while being in an area safe from the bosses wrath were actively working to exploit the system. It would be obvious to any rational thinker that it was wrong. Same thing.

To demonstrate how wrong you are, addons are blessed by Zos and can only access information Zos permits. That by definition is not anywhere near close to cheating. So it is factually wrong for you to say most addons would fall in the category of cheating.

Your opinion is yours to have regardless of how wrong it is.

Yeah I don't get why it's so hard to get agreement on these forums... There is something about communicating this way that just does not work. Just as you are baffled why I think hacking a system is worse than taking advantage of a buggy one, I am baffled that you think it's the same. If the IRS sends you extra money in your refund and you go ahead and keep it, that's sketchy and even wrong. But I have to think outright fraud where you provide fasle info is way worse. One case is taking advantage of someone else's mistake, the other is actively engineering a circumvention of the rules. I'm 90% sure the law makes a distinction. But I suppose hardcore consequentialists say that if it's the same end result then it's just as bad.

You really like to split hairs about semantics.

If you walk into the bank and the vault is open and you take the money its exactly the same thing as you breaking into the bank after it was closed.

One just has breaking and entering added to the theft.

If the IRS messes up and sends you more money than you are owed and you keep it it is the same exact thing as you falsifying information to get more money and keeping it, just with additional crime added onto it.

The "laws" distinction is simply adding more crimes onto the first one.

The issue is what you are saying is hacking is not in any way. The only "hacking" in a game is changing the code to alter client data sent to the server or server data after its sent to the client.

So basically what you are saying is that game genie is bad, but wallclipping is good, but both are bad and can be equally "cheating"

SirAndy wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Not saying you should have read every single post so not being snarky, but just to avoid typing the same thing over and over in slightly different ways...
Just because ZOS intended it doesn't mean it's fair, and just because they didn't intend it doesn't mean it's unfair.

You *literally* put AddOns under the "Cheating" heading like so "Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella".
So yes, your initial post very clearly claims AddOns are cheating ...

I don't think your quoting the right text as what you wrote doesn't seem to respond to it. Also my original post called add-ons a "grey area," which is the opposite of clearly claiming anything. Are you drunk or something?

Why, would that be cheating too?

Lol

yodased wrote: »

You really like to split hairs about semantics.

If you walk into the bank and the vault is open and you take the money its exactly the same thing as you breaking into the bank after it was closed.

One just has breaking and entering added to the theft.

If the IRS messes up and sends you more money than you are owed and you keep it it is the same exact thing as you falsifying information to get more money and keeping it, just with additional crime added onto it.

The "laws" distinction is simply adding more crimes onto the first one.

The issue is what you are saying is hacking is not in any way. The only "hacking" in a game is changing the code to alter client data sent to the server or server data after its sent to the client.

So basically what you are saying is that game genie is bad, but wallclipping is good, but both are bad and can be equally "cheating"

First of all "additional crimes added to it" is kind of a big difference and not splitting hairs. And in the IRS example, afaik keeping the money isn't even technically a crime. They'll make you give the money back if they spot the error but I'm pretty sure you don't get charged for anything. So yeah these behaviors cover a very wide range of badness, and the point of the discussion is to look at them and clarify them a bit.

I think the point of preventing cheating is to keep everybody on equal footing. If wall scaling is something anyone who owns a working copy of the game can do, I don't see the point in banning people for doing it, especially since they're not the ones that put it there.

If an add-on gives an advantage and anyone who downloads the add-on can have it, that doesn't seem too bad but it's a little less ecumenical. And people are scripting up their own things so there's kind of a meta-game of add-on design going on which is sort of expanding the definition of what the game ESO is into other open source software.

On the other hand yeah a game genie (if I understand the analogy) is unequivocal cheating where your altering the game files in explicitly prohibited ways that only you will benefit from.

idk wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

idk wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

idk wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

@idk I wouldn't call it splitting hairs. The difference between them as I defined them is like the difference between not calling up your bank when they make an error in your favor verses hacking into their accounts and cleaning them out. Neither is good but I think that's a huge difference.

I put the key point of your comment in bold. it is your definition and I still stand by it is splitting hairs.

I have no idea why you are using hacking into someone's account as an example to defend your comments. That is something that is illegal beyond the boundaries of Zos.

• You run through a dungeon to the next boss, all the trash whiplashes back/evades.
• You find a way to move outside of the intended path of a trial instance to get to the last boss and able to stand where the boss nor any adds can do any damage to you.

Both are considered exploits. The first is not going to get you banned while you are taking a huge risk with the second option. So yes, you are splitting hairs with your definitions. Most exploits that will get you banned are pretty obvious.

One is passive, the other is active. In one case you are actively hacking the system, in essence creating a bug, just for you, where there wasn't one before. In the other case you are using a bug that you didn't put there - zenimax did - and it's available to everyone. That's a HUGE difference.

That sounds more like an excuse someone comes up with to try to justify their actions when they know what they did was wrong.

The people who went outside of the obvious path were doing something active, that would be obvious to any rational thinker was wrong, but they did not have to hack any code. It was a exploit that was cheating.

Those that used either of the two methods to clear vAS+3 while being in an area safe from the bosses wrath were actively working to exploit the system. It would be obvious to any rational thinker that it was wrong. Same thing.

To demonstrate how wrong you are, addons are blessed by Zos and can only access information Zos permits. That by definition is not anywhere near close to cheating. So it is factually wrong for you to say most addons would fall in the category of cheating.

Your opinion is yours to have regardless of how wrong it is.

Yeah I don't get why it's so hard to get agreement on these forums.

In this case it is because you are very wrong with your definition and interpretation.

The first and most obvious aspect is you claim addons are cheating by somehow saying they manipulate the way ESO code. Addons do not manipulate how ESO operates or the ESO code. The player still needs to do whatever they need to do and the game does what it is programmed to do. Nothing is altered which is what you are suggesting.

Ok I get what you mean that the base ESO code itself is not changing but clearly they alter how the game plays (now who's splitting hairs?). There's a lot of add-ons (most?) that let you do things you cant do without them. Just look at all the console players chiming in about how gimped they feel compared to PC.

idk wrote: »

Further, Zos specifically asked players to build addons and through testing and discussion before the game launched chose what information those addons could access. That discussion continues to this day and the information addons can access has been modified many times since the game launched.

Both of those are reasons, and factual reasons, why the first part of the posted OP of this thread is wrong. It sounds more like you do not like addons so you call it cheating and that is not how the world works.

For what I'm sure will not be the last time I have to say this, I'm not arguing that add-ons are against the TOS. They obviously aren't. And I like add-ons just fine I use a ton of them-not to mention playing on PC without them is hopelessly hobbling. But if we want to talk about notions of fair play and cheating (independent of whatever legal constraints are enshrined in the TOS), I think add-ons might fit that mold better than exploits, even though everyone accepts add-ons without batting an eye.

idk wrote: »

Then you somehow try to suggest that knowingly using an exploit that is obviously not intended yet brings a major benefit is somewhat acceptable behavior to use over and over. You seem to state this when Zos has banned players for such action.

Again, your equivocating on what zos does with what is fair. Yes the rules today are what they are and zos made them that way. This is a conversation about what the rules should be.

worrallj wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players !

As I don't play competitively it doesn't bother me if other players use addons or cheat/exploit (although I play on PC I do neither), I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains. Each to his own, however, subject to the ToS being fully enforced.

I played for about 3 years on PC without any add-on and I still didn't consider it cheating.
Can we also stop with the idea that add-ons allow you to play the game in unintended ways? Any function or resource available to the add-ons was intentionally put there by ZOS. How is it unintended?

Didn't say it was unintended, said it was unfair advantage for people who don't want to install third party software. There's a lot of people who seem to equate "zos intended it this way" with "it's not cheating/it's fair." I'm taking a very different line and talking about exogenous (obtained outside normal gameplay) sources of player advantage.

Ok, I think that you are crediting the Devs with a lot more thought being given to the way that things actually work in the game, I dont agree with the thought that just because something was released in a particular state necessarily means that it is what the Devs intended. Lots of game updates come out as broken or really not working as intended. This is where the mods help to correct some obviously broken parts of the game, or as I outlined earlier. Time wasters that are very cumbersome.

All MMO's are designed to waste your time. It's entertainment, and a time waster. Hopefully you have fun while doing it. To me, the amount of time required to do the daily stuff is a time waste that I am not actually playing the game. So any time savings that I can get there I will use so that I can then actually play the game more.

Side note: I used to be one of those play the way it was released without mods type of person in former MMO's. After installing and using mods, I look back and wonder how I used to play the game without them.

Ok, New Example: Skyshards! I use the skyshards map mod. It helps me remember if I have already collected a particular skyshard or not. I could use my second PC to bring up maps of skyshard locations if I did not have the mod, but that will not tell me if I have already collected a particular skyshard or not on a character. By using the mod, it makes the game much more enjoyable to me, and I dont have to use another PC/database to track that type of item.

ESO is a large complex game. ZOS does not provide enough in game tools to help you actually play the game. So you turn to addons that help change an otherwise frustration point with the game into something that you can enjoy.


And my last comment is related to "Unfair Advantage" due to the time savings. So what. Saving time does not make it cheating. I work a job and have limited entertainment time in a day. but I don't complain that the person that is retired has an unfair advantage because they have more time to play. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with, or buy this argument. You cant regulate how much someone plays an MMO. Therefore I say that it invalidates the saving time = unfair advantage argument. As others have pointed out, Mods are available on the PC platform. If you choose not to use them does not mean that those that do are cheating in comparison IMO. You may have chosen not to use mods, but hey, that is your choice. You have the option if you want to use it, you chose not to and therefore chose to be at a disadvantage.


I'll close with saying thanks for participating in the discussion. :-) It gave me something to do while waiting on firmware updates at work. :-0
Thorvik

Androconium wrote: »

Consoles are on the same level playing fields as PC players that choose not to use addons.
Console hardware for mainstream gaming products are about enforcement of proprietory systems
Console design is about reducing user-generated problems caused by Windows OS variations.

Oblivion was the first TES game that was designed with console use as a major consideration.
Oblivion release was delayed, as Microsoft were not happy with what Bethesda was offering as a minimum, viable product.

On that basis, you can assume that; both Microsoft and Sony are satisfied that whatever product Bethesda churn out, does in fact meet their contracted standards of playability and reliability.

Exploits are the result of insubstantial testing.
Cheating is the result of deliberate manipulation of software.
Consoles users are better shielded from both these issues, than PC players are.

Yes thank you!

Androconium wrote: »

AFAIK, all addons are tested and approved by a Bethesda entity, before release. Please correct me if I am wrong on this point.

You chose a console hardware platform for whatever benefits you perceive.
You chose a multi-platform gaming product to play on that platform.

You get to live with your choices. Same as everyone else.

I don't believe so. The TOS state
"
If you create an Add-on, You must include the following disclosure in a Readme or similar .txt file: "This Add-on is not created by, affiliated with or sponsored by ZeniMax Media Inc. or its affiliates. ..."
"
It goes on to say that zeni doesn't provide any customer support for add-ons and add-ons could contain malicious software that they take no responsibility for. Anyone can create an add-on and make it available for download over the web, there's no zenimax approved collection of the afaik.

Re: Addons, I'll repeat what I've said elsewhere.

Think of addons as either shoes or shotguns. No one is born with shoes, you can go through life without shoes, but if you're doing a lot of walking or running over rough surfaces, it makes sense to get some shoes. There's no nobility in walking over broken seashells or pine needles and dead bugs with your bare feet. You can always slip shoes off if you want to walk a sandy beach or a grassy field, but the rest of the time, shoes let you go about your business enjoying life instead of being so busy making sure you don't step on something painful that you're missing out on everything wonderful going on around you.

Shotguns, those are things that can give someone an advantage in an otherwise fair fight, and there might be times that ZoS decides that giving some people shotguns is a mistake. But that's for them to decide.

But just because someone might have a shotgun doesn't mean there's a problem with wearing shoes.

Bosov wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella, but typically we're talking about things that either modify player movement, player stats, character actions, or provide information that is meant to be hidden.

AddOns can't do any of those things ...

Lies.

I have this secret player stat modifier addon which gives me 3k extra recovery on everything, 20k more stam and magic and has my char at max resist at all time. It is a really cool addon!

i doubt that very much as those stats are locked server-side and rely on complex equations by code which ZOS does not Allow Access to, the only thing that could change the appearance of your game stats is something like Cheat Engine, but that would only be client side.
unless you can prove me wrong?

cheat engine is an add-on

My forum add on just told me to “dodge this thread”...