PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for PvE Healing

HaemaMagus · July 2019

snarkomatic wrote: »

HaemaMagus wrote: »

snarkomatic wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

danara wrote: »

@Iskiab i am a healer since 5 year, very disapointed with the different healing change... (magicka) i am looking at your post, and i find it very interesting

I will compare hircine with the worm, and powerful assault with olorime/spc

Is there no way to buff ally with a similiar buff of combat prayer ?

What about debuffing ennemies ? What do you think of running a destro staff for blockade (even if you dont do any damage) for the off balance proc + punction ?

Why did you put 2 weapons on the main bar ? Idk the passives i never played stam, why didnt you put a bow on the main bar ? Then you can stay away from ennemy ?

Do you have any thought with an other stam healer class ? Im thinking about templar with the debuff power of the Light (i love this one, i play it on m'y mag healer)

Do you think that in the Next patch you ll have to run one stam healer for the healing output, and one magicka healer for the buff/debuff ?

Sorry with all these questions, but your thought is interesting

Thanks a lot if you answzr that

The problem with these stam heal is : they do not belong to a line.
Every stam dps can take them and heal as much cuz it's scale on weap dmg.
So it's not about making stam healer, but more about remove healer and let dps heal themselves.

Stam healer are already a thing, even if no competitive rn, but the way stam healing is implemented is a huge problem.

The problem is how healing scales with damage modifiers and not how accessible those healing skills are.

Spell damage / weapon damage benefiting healing strength? Uhm... there you have one of the problems.

Because, despite the fact that this does cause DPS to have healing capability, you know what it also does? It makes leveling as a healer viable. It makes contributing to overall group DPS viable. You clearly never healed in something like WoW early days where spell healing/damage were split stats, and you could heal until the end of the world but it took you 15 years to kill a generic starting-area wolf because your spell damage was the equivalent of you hoping to drown a grown man by spitting on him enough times.

We need solutions, but nerfing healers' ability to solo/dps into the ground is a solution I really, really hope ZoS never pursues.

Nerfing my healer's ability to solo or do dps wouldn't bother me. Infact the opposite does. I don't want to have to do dps. I prefer to heal and buff and debuff as needed. Sure if I can toss some dps here and there inbetween keeping my group alive I'll do it but that should be so far at the bottom of what is required of my role it should be negligent.

I don't think healers should be required to bring 25k dps in order to be welcome in a trial, but that's, again, something ZoS needs to address re: DPS power creep and mechanics being completely circumvented by that creep. I do not want my ability to DPS to be nerfed. Most of us don't. We like being powerful healers and viable for solo content without swapping up too much of our build. Especially on console, where we have no add-ons to help us, and ZoS has consistently refused to implement UI updates/QoL necessities.

Stop asking for more healer nerfs, and focus on what would actually help us.

Never asked for our damage to be nerfed for one and I already gave my feedback and ideas to help with the healing nerfs already. All I said was that the changes wouldn't bother me.

Iskiab · July 2019

Aznarb wrote: »

danara wrote: »

@Iskiab i am a healer since 5 year, very disapointed with the different healing change... (magicka) i am looking at your post, and i find it very interesting

I will compare hircine with the worm, and powerful assault with olorime/spc

Is there no way to buff ally with a similiar buff of combat prayer ?

What about debuffing ennemies ? What do you think of running a destro staff for blockade (even if you dont do any damage) for the off balance proc + punction ?

Why did you put 2 weapons on the main bar ? Idk the passives i never played stam, why didnt you put a bow on the main bar ? Then you can stay away from ennemy ?

Do you have any thought with an other stam healer class ? Im thinking about templar with the debuff power of the Light (i love this one, i play it on m'y mag healer)

Do you think that in the Next patch you ll have to run one stam healer for the healing output, and one magicka healer for the buff/debuff ?

Sorry with all these questions, but your thought is interesting

Thanks a lot if you answzr that

The problem with these stam heal is : they do not belong to a line.
Every stam dps can take them and heal as much cuz it's scale on weap dmg.
So it's not about making stam healer, but more about remove healer and let dps heal themselves.

Stam healer are already a thing, even if no competitive rn, but the way stam healing is implemented is a huge problem.

Yea sure, I think stam healing should be a thing. Why not? The issue is stamina healing's strength compared to magicka healing. As is if this goes Live I think you'll see 1 stam healer and 1 magicka healer per raid, dps won't have to slot a thing. Just logged onto PTS to check values with all the buffs up in that build I linked (including major mending from spores on a target under 40% health).

Ring of preservation: Just over 1135k per tick, meaning 3121.25 HPS (ticks twice per second) per target in the area x6 = 18,727.5 HPS
Echoing Vigor: 31170 Echoing Vigor, meaning 42,858.75 expected value over 10 seconds, or 4285 HPS per target x 6 = 25710 per cast, cast it twice to hit everyone in the raid for 51,420 HPS
Soothing Spores: 13127 Soothing Spores with an expected value of 18,049.5 per cast hitting 6 targets

So just two casts of echoing vigor plus ring of preservation would be 70,147 HPS. Plus there's a burst heal available that's a full heal on 6 people.

People have talked like it will be impossible to heal vHoF HM, meanwhile if a stamwarden healer has enough sustain it looks like they'd be able to solo heal it. Realistically it'll be best to have two healers in case one drops; one stam and one mag, but stam healing will pump out the majority of the hps, MagTemp for more synergies/cleanses/mag support sets.

Aznarb · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

danara wrote: »

@Iskiab i am a healer since 5 year, very disapointed with the different healing change... (magicka) i am looking at your post, and i find it very interesting

I will compare hircine with the worm, and powerful assault with olorime/spc

Is there no way to buff ally with a similiar buff of combat prayer ?

What about debuffing ennemies ? What do you think of running a destro staff for blockade (even if you dont do any damage) for the off balance proc + punction ?

Why did you put 2 weapons on the main bar ? Idk the passives i never played stam, why didnt you put a bow on the main bar ? Then you can stay away from ennemy ?

Do you have any thought with an other stam healer class ? Im thinking about templar with the debuff power of the Light (i love this one, i play it on m'y mag healer)

Do you think that in the Next patch you ll have to run one stam healer for the healing output, and one magicka healer for the buff/debuff ?

Sorry with all these questions, but your thought is interesting

Thanks a lot if you answzr that

The problem with these stam heal is : they do not belong to a line.
Every stam dps can take them and heal as much cuz it's scale on weap dmg.
So it's not about making stam healer, but more about remove healer and let dps heal themselves.

Stam healer are already a thing, even if no competitive rn, but the way stam healing is implemented is a huge problem.

Yea sure, I think stam healing should be a thing. Why not? The issue is stamina healing's strength compared to magicka healing. As is if this goes Live I think you'll see 1 stam healer and 1 magicka healer per raid, dps won't have to slot a thing. Just logged onto PTS to check values with all the buffs up in that build I linked (including major mending from spores on a target under 40% health).

Ring of preservation: Just over 1135k per tick, meaning 3121.25 HPS (ticks twice per second) per target in the area x6 = 18,727.5 HPS
Echoing Vigor: 31170 Echoing Vigor, meaning 42,858.75 expected value over 10 seconds, or 4285 HPS per target x 6 = 25710 per cast, cast it twice to hit everyone in the raid for 51,420 HPS
Soothing Spores: 13127 Soothing Spores with an expected value of 18,049.5 per cast hitting 6 targets

So just two casts of echoing vigor plus ring of preservation would be 70,147 HPS. Plus there's a burst heal available that's a full heal on 6 people.

People have talked like it will be impossible to heal vHoF HM, meanwhile if a stamwarden healer has enough sustain it looks like they'd be able to solo heal it. Realistically it'll be best to have two healers in case one drops; one stam and one mag, but stam healing will pump out the majority of the hps, MagTemp for more synergies/cleanses/mag support sets.

Put echoing vigor on all stam dps, since it's stack, it will heal even more and it's only 1 skill slot.
Mag DPS slot orb in rotation, one put olo, done, no need healer even for trial.
That how I see it.

I've also make an hybrid stam-mag healer with shacklebreaker and amberplasm, it's fun and efficient too, but the fact are, with this patch we don't need healer even more.
The better are the player the less healer are needed cuz it's just about stacking hot in spam dmg phase and avoid OS mechanic. You don't need healer for that.

What it left for us healer ? Spaming Combat Prayer for buff ? Pick purge in case we're in the 3 area who need it ? Look lame af.
Stam heal, should, like mag heal, be link to a weapon tree dedicated to stam heal.
Like I said, stam heal is not the problem, it would be cool to have the possibility to do it.
But the way stam heal are on PTS and live is a true problem imho and I'm very afraid of this.
Healer are already useless in 90% of the content, if it goes even further, I'll just leave cuz I don't enjoy other role.
The way this game is design is bad, to much OS mechanic, and to many free heal making DPS and Tank self-efficient.

ccfeeling · July 2019

I cant find any pts trial video, can someone post it? Ty

SeaUnicorn · August 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoAvIlJ_9eA&t=1355s

Here is the test done by the group of very experienced players.
Spoiler, they were not able to complete Lokke HM beam, mathematically not enough heals.
They also had harder time overall because tank and the group are not positioned in the same place, so covering both with the hots is hard.
Timestamps for that finding is between 14m and 16m.

As majority of PVE end game player base predicted healing output after the nerfs is just not enough to be able to complete some of the HM content.

More concerning is the conclusion of the video, where he compares vigor and circle of protection to the mutagen and class HOTs. Long story short the changes kill the healer role all together and with those changes solidified groups in dungeons and trials will be better off running Tank(s)+DPS. Healer role will be dead.

profundidob16_ESO · August 2019

I can understand removing healing springs spam which in itself is -when spammed- already stronger than any combination of different skills. That's indeed bad design from the start and never should have been allowed.

I understand that turning them into 'limited hots" and force us to replace the previous spam solution with what will be now a mix of different well timed skills that each in their own are not omnipotent but allow to be complemented into a powerful healing output that is able to outheal things like lokke hm beam phase, vHOF endboss, etc..

What I don't understand is how you can not take into account the relative healing power of a pure healer versus a dps. Whatever selfheal a DPS has should be completely neglectable when compared to a pure healer.

What I also don't understand is how you nerfed all those pure healer skills while their total combined power is no longer sufficient to outheal the current content ?? The video linked in the post above kind of speaks for itself.

TheNightflame · August 2019

did it take this long to get other horrible pts items reworked? like shield cast times? other things like that?

SeaUnicorn · August 2019

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

I can understand removing healing springs spam which in itself is -when spammed- already stronger than any combination of different skills. That's indeed bad design from the start and never should have been allowed.

I understand that turning them into 'limited hots" and force us to replace the previous spam solution with what will be now a mix of different well timed skills that each in their own are not omnipotent but allow to be complemented into a powerful healing output that is able to outheal things like lokke hm beam phase, vHOF endboss, etc..

What I don't understand is how you can not take into account the relative healing power of a pure healer versus a dps. Whatever selfheal a DPS has should be completely neglectable when compared to a pure healer.

What I also don't understand is how you nerfed all those pure healer skills while their total combined power is no longer sufficient to outheal the current content ?? The video linked in the post above kind of speaks for itself.

Main problem is that even when you combine all your hots - still not enough to out-heal Lokke HM, and Assembly General HM. Like literally there's not enough heals with the barrier, all you class hots and new healing springs. How can you make such changes and not verify the math. I don't get it.
If devs decided to change healing springs because it impacts performance of the server negatively, great, then adjust HOT power of one spring to act like 2 to replace old mechanic. Instead they are weaker now and can't be layered.
Now to replace them I would consider to spam clap heal on my templar for example, it's not a ground AOE hence not such a big performance hog. But clap heal price was not adjusted, so you can't really spam it for mentioned fights. Not to mention that other classes don't have any alternative all together.
Honestly considering to reroll tank for next patch. Because clearly my 2 healer toons will be collecting dust alongside with magblade.

Sandman929 · August 2019

Aznarb wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

danara wrote: »

@Iskiab i am a healer since 5 year, very disapointed with the different healing change... (magicka) i am looking at your post, and i find it very interesting

I will compare hircine with the worm, and powerful assault with olorime/spc

Is there no way to buff ally with a similiar buff of combat prayer ?

What about debuffing ennemies ? What do you think of running a destro staff for blockade (even if you dont do any damage) for the off balance proc + punction ?

Why did you put 2 weapons on the main bar ? Idk the passives i never played stam, why didnt you put a bow on the main bar ? Then you can stay away from ennemy ?

Do you have any thought with an other stam healer class ? Im thinking about templar with the debuff power of the Light (i love this one, i play it on m'y mag healer)

Do you think that in the Next patch you ll have to run one stam healer for the healing output, and one magicka healer for the buff/debuff ?

Sorry with all these questions, but your thought is interesting

Thanks a lot if you answzr that

The problem with these stam heal is : they do not belong to a line.
Every stam dps can take them and heal as much cuz it's scale on weap dmg.
So it's not about making stam healer, but more about remove healer and let dps heal themselves.

Stam healer are already a thing, even if no competitive rn, but the way stam healing is implemented is a huge problem.

Yea sure, I think stam healing should be a thing. Why not? The issue is stamina healing's strength compared to magicka healing. As is if this goes Live I think you'll see 1 stam healer and 1 magicka healer per raid, dps won't have to slot a thing. Just logged onto PTS to check values with all the buffs up in that build I linked (including major mending from spores on a target under 40% health).

Ring of preservation: Just over 1135k per tick, meaning 3121.25 HPS (ticks twice per second) per target in the area x6 = 18,727.5 HPS
Echoing Vigor: 31170 Echoing Vigor, meaning 42,858.75 expected value over 10 seconds, or 4285 HPS per target x 6 = 25710 per cast, cast it twice to hit everyone in the raid for 51,420 HPS
Soothing Spores: 13127 Soothing Spores with an expected value of 18,049.5 per cast hitting 6 targets

So just two casts of echoing vigor plus ring of preservation would be 70,147 HPS. Plus there's a burst heal available that's a full heal on 6 people.

People have talked like it will be impossible to heal vHoF HM, meanwhile if a stamwarden healer has enough sustain it looks like they'd be able to solo heal it. Realistically it'll be best to have two healers in case one drops; one stam and one mag, but stam healing will pump out the majority of the hps, MagTemp for more synergies/cleanses/mag support sets.

Put echoing vigor on all stam dps, since it's stack, it will heal even more and it's only 1 skill slot.
Mag DPS slot orb in rotation, one put olo, done, no need healer even for trial.
That how I see it.

I've also make an hybrid stam-mag healer with shacklebreaker and amberplasm, it's fun and efficient too, but the fact are, with this patch we don't need healer even more.
The better are the player the less healer are needed cuz it's just about stacking hot in spam dmg phase and avoid OS mechanic. You don't need healer for that.

What it left for us healer ? Spaming Combat Prayer for buff ? Pick purge in case we're in the 3 area who need it ? Look lame af.
Stam heal, should, like mag heal, be link to a weapon tree dedicated to stam heal.
Like I said, stam heal is not the problem, it would be cool to have the possibility to do it.
But the way stam heal are on PTS and live is a true problem imho and I'm very afraid of this.
Healer are already useless in 90% of the content, if it goes even further, I'll just leave cuz I don't enjoy other role.
The way this game is design is bad, to much OS mechanic, and to many free heal making DPS and Tank self-efficient.

There seems to be mixed reports regarding whether or not Echoing Vigor stacks

apri · August 2019

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

I can understand removing healing springs spam which in itself is -when spammed- already stronger than any combination of different skills. That's indeed bad design from the start and never should have been allowed.

It's bad design indeed but it's also what the game encouraged players to do. Before Olorime became the thing, Spell Power Cure was the healing meta set which can still be seen being used in groups. It highly encourages and rewards overhealing, a sin in most other MMOs. I think a redesign of Spell Power Cure and overhealing would be the better approach than to destroy a skill. If overhealing would be punished, there would be no reason to nerf healing springs. There would also be no reason to nerf vigor or rapid regen or any skill of choice if the game mechanics would punish overuse. And on top: Such a game mechanic would also reduce server load from a performance standpoint.

Example for a penalty by healing springs overuse: Make stacks of healing springs without any actual healing take the aggro away from the tank. This would enforce a mindful usage of springs. A healer being attacked by each and everyone out of a sudden would quickly learn to use the tools reasonably. Since this new mechanic might be abused by tanks for tanking, it could be changed towards randomized aggro. It might just override the tank's aggro and spread it randomly among the party members - a situation no group would tolerate for long. That's two simple solutions that come to my mind.

Example for a penalty for vigor/rapid regen overuse: Unless vigor or rapid regen actually heals, make it turn into a dot against the caster that becomes stronger the longer no damage hits the caster. That could prevent mindless vigor and rapid stacks, too.

What I don't understand is how you can not take into account the relative healing power of a pure healer versus a dps. Whatever selfheal a DPS has should be completely neglectable when compared to a pure healer.

So true. Also there is the resto staff, a healing staff. A staff that is dedicated for healing should by definition be a stronger tool for healing than a random weapon of choice.

SassiestAssassin · August 2019

apri wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

Example for a penalty by healing springs overuse: Make stacks of healing springs without any actual healing take the aggro away from the tank.

This would enforce a mindful usage of springs. A healer being attacked by each and everyone out of a sudden would quickly learn to use the tools reasonably. Since this new mechanic might be abused by tanks for tanking, it could be changed towards randomized aggro. It might just override the tank's aggro and spread it randomly among the party members - a situation no group would tolerate for long.

This would make skilled healing an interesting challenge for sure. And it wouldn’t punish healers for the mechanics where they have to spam to keep the group alive (like how increasing the cost for every second cast would.) I like it.

Iskiab · August 2019

Sandman929 wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

danara wrote: »

@Iskiab i am a healer since 5 year, very disapointed with the different healing change... (magicka) i am looking at your post, and i find it very interesting

I will compare hircine with the worm, and powerful assault with olorime/spc

Is there no way to buff ally with a similiar buff of combat prayer ?

What about debuffing ennemies ? What do you think of running a destro staff for blockade (even if you dont do any damage) for the off balance proc + punction ?

Why did you put 2 weapons on the main bar ? Idk the passives i never played stam, why didnt you put a bow on the main bar ? Then you can stay away from ennemy ?

Do you have any thought with an other stam healer class ? Im thinking about templar with the debuff power of the Light (i love this one, i play it on m'y mag healer)

Do you think that in the Next patch you ll have to run one stam healer for the healing output, and one magicka healer for the buff/debuff ?

Sorry with all these questions, but your thought is interesting

Thanks a lot if you answzr that

The problem with these stam heal is : they do not belong to a line.
Every stam dps can take them and heal as much cuz it's scale on weap dmg.
So it's not about making stam healer, but more about remove healer and let dps heal themselves.

Stam healer are already a thing, even if no competitive rn, but the way stam healing is implemented is a huge problem.

Yea sure, I think stam healing should be a thing. Why not? The issue is stamina healing's strength compared to magicka healing. As is if this goes Live I think you'll see 1 stam healer and 1 magicka healer per raid, dps won't have to slot a thing. Just logged onto PTS to check values with all the buffs up in that build I linked (including major mending from spores on a target under 40% health).

Ring of preservation: Just over 1135k per tick, meaning 3121.25 HPS (ticks twice per second) per target in the area x6 = 18,727.5 HPS
Echoing Vigor: 31170 Echoing Vigor, meaning 42,858.75 expected value over 10 seconds, or 4285 HPS per target x 6 = 25710 per cast, cast it twice to hit everyone in the raid for 51,420 HPS
Soothing Spores: 13127 Soothing Spores with an expected value of 18,049.5 per cast hitting 6 targets

So just two casts of echoing vigor plus ring of preservation would be 70,147 HPS. Plus there's a burst heal available that's a full heal on 6 people.

People have talked like it will be impossible to heal vHoF HM, meanwhile if a stamwarden healer has enough sustain it looks like they'd be able to solo heal it. Realistically it'll be best to have two healers in case one drops; one stam and one mag, but stam healing will pump out the majority of the hps, MagTemp for more synergies/cleanses/mag support sets.

Put echoing vigor on all stam dps, since it's stack, it will heal even more and it's only 1 skill slot.
Mag DPS slot orb in rotation, one put olo, done, no need healer even for trial.
That how I see it.

I've also make an hybrid stam-mag healer with shacklebreaker and amberplasm, it's fun and efficient too, but the fact are, with this patch we don't need healer even more.
The better are the player the less healer are needed cuz it's just about stacking hot in spam dmg phase and avoid OS mechanic. You don't need healer for that.

What it left for us healer ? Spaming Combat Prayer for buff ? Pick purge in case we're in the 3 area who need it ? Look lame af.
Stam heal, should, like mag heal, be link to a weapon tree dedicated to stam heal.
Like I said, stam heal is not the problem, it would be cool to have the possibility to do it.
But the way stam heal are on PTS and live is a true problem imho and I'm very afraid of this.
Healer are already useless in 90% of the content, if it goes even further, I'll just leave cuz I don't enjoy other role.
The way this game is design is bad, to much OS mechanic, and to many free heal making DPS and Tank self-efficient.

There seems to be mixed reports regarding whether or not Echoing Vigor stacks

I was confused on this, someone went on PTS and confirmed it does not.

Sandman929 · August 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

danara wrote: »

@Iskiab i am a healer since 5 year, very disapointed with the different healing change... (magicka) i am looking at your post, and i find it very interesting

I will compare hircine with the worm, and powerful assault with olorime/spc

Is there no way to buff ally with a similiar buff of combat prayer ?

What about debuffing ennemies ? What do you think of running a destro staff for blockade (even if you dont do any damage) for the off balance proc + punction ?

Why did you put 2 weapons on the main bar ? Idk the passives i never played stam, why didnt you put a bow on the main bar ? Then you can stay away from ennemy ?

Do you have any thought with an other stam healer class ? Im thinking about templar with the debuff power of the Light (i love this one, i play it on m'y mag healer)

Do you think that in the Next patch you ll have to run one stam healer for the healing output, and one magicka healer for the buff/debuff ?

Sorry with all these questions, but your thought is interesting

Thanks a lot if you answzr that

The problem with these stam heal is : they do not belong to a line.
Every stam dps can take them and heal as much cuz it's scale on weap dmg.
So it's not about making stam healer, but more about remove healer and let dps heal themselves.

Stam healer are already a thing, even if no competitive rn, but the way stam healing is implemented is a huge problem.

Yea sure, I think stam healing should be a thing. Why not? The issue is stamina healing's strength compared to magicka healing. As is if this goes Live I think you'll see 1 stam healer and 1 magicka healer per raid, dps won't have to slot a thing. Just logged onto PTS to check values with all the buffs up in that build I linked (including major mending from spores on a target under 40% health).

Ring of preservation: Just over 1135k per tick, meaning 3121.25 HPS (ticks twice per second) per target in the area x6 = 18,727.5 HPS
Echoing Vigor: 31170 Echoing Vigor, meaning 42,858.75 expected value over 10 seconds, or 4285 HPS per target x 6 = 25710 per cast, cast it twice to hit everyone in the raid for 51,420 HPS
Soothing Spores: 13127 Soothing Spores with an expected value of 18,049.5 per cast hitting 6 targets

So just two casts of echoing vigor plus ring of preservation would be 70,147 HPS. Plus there's a burst heal available that's a full heal on 6 people.

People have talked like it will be impossible to heal vHoF HM, meanwhile if a stamwarden healer has enough sustain it looks like they'd be able to solo heal it. Realistically it'll be best to have two healers in case one drops; one stam and one mag, but stam healing will pump out the majority of the hps, MagTemp for more synergies/cleanses/mag support sets.

Put echoing vigor on all stam dps, since it's stack, it will heal even more and it's only 1 skill slot.
Mag DPS slot orb in rotation, one put olo, done, no need healer even for trial.
That how I see it.

I've also make an hybrid stam-mag healer with shacklebreaker and amberplasm, it's fun and efficient too, but the fact are, with this patch we don't need healer even more.
The better are the player the less healer are needed cuz it's just about stacking hot in spam dmg phase and avoid OS mechanic. You don't need healer for that.

What it left for us healer ? Spaming Combat Prayer for buff ? Pick purge in case we're in the 3 area who need it ? Look lame af.
Stam heal, should, like mag heal, be link to a weapon tree dedicated to stam heal.
Like I said, stam heal is not the problem, it would be cool to have the possibility to do it.
But the way stam heal are on PTS and live is a true problem imho and I'm very afraid of this.
Healer are already useless in 90% of the content, if it goes even further, I'll just leave cuz I don't enjoy other role.
The way this game is design is bad, to much OS mechanic, and to many free heal making DPS and Tank self-efficient.

There seems to be mixed reports regarding whether or not Echoing Vigor stacks

I was confused on this, someone went on PTS and confirmed it does not.

That's what I thought too, but then I saw another person claiming it did. Are there any clips showing that no healing is received from multiple sources of Echoing Vigor?

Sandman929 · August 2019

I saw this in another thread:

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Itzmichi , if you checked combat log and you see ticks from more than two (external) vigors, it's a (PTS-introduced) bug. And if so, it should get fixed, that's about it.

@SodanTok , vigor can't stack indefinitely because it's a target-applied effect. Ground HoTs do stack, but target-applied HoTs don't, same as, for instance, Mutagen - if two healers cast it, only one copy will be running on target, but different morphs would stack, so if another healer runs Rapid Regen, it will stack with Mutagen.

And while this makes sense, I'm just curious if this in in fact the behavior on the PTS (and eventually on live).

Iskiab · August 2019

Sandman929 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

danara wrote: »

@Iskiab i am a healer since 5 year, very disapointed with the different healing change... (magicka) i am looking at your post, and i find it very interesting

I will compare hircine with the worm, and powerful assault with olorime/spc

Is there no way to buff ally with a similiar buff of combat prayer ?

What about debuffing ennemies ? What do you think of running a destro staff for blockade (even if you dont do any damage) for the off balance proc + punction ?

Why did you put 2 weapons on the main bar ? Idk the passives i never played stam, why didnt you put a bow on the main bar ? Then you can stay away from ennemy ?

Do you have any thought with an other stam healer class ? Im thinking about templar with the debuff power of the Light (i love this one, i play it on m'y mag healer)

Do you think that in the Next patch you ll have to run one stam healer for the healing output, and one magicka healer for the buff/debuff ?

Sorry with all these questions, but your thought is interesting

Thanks a lot if you answzr that

The problem with these stam heal is : they do not belong to a line.
Every stam dps can take them and heal as much cuz it's scale on weap dmg.
So it's not about making stam healer, but more about remove healer and let dps heal themselves.

Stam healer are already a thing, even if no competitive rn, but the way stam healing is implemented is a huge problem.

Yea sure, I think stam healing should be a thing. Why not? The issue is stamina healing's strength compared to magicka healing. As is if this goes Live I think you'll see 1 stam healer and 1 magicka healer per raid, dps won't have to slot a thing. Just logged onto PTS to check values with all the buffs up in that build I linked (including major mending from spores on a target under 40% health).

Ring of preservation: Just over 1135k per tick, meaning 3121.25 HPS (ticks twice per second) per target in the area x6 = 18,727.5 HPS
Echoing Vigor: 31170 Echoing Vigor, meaning 42,858.75 expected value over 10 seconds, or 4285 HPS per target x 6 = 25710 per cast, cast it twice to hit everyone in the raid for 51,420 HPS
Soothing Spores: 13127 Soothing Spores with an expected value of 18,049.5 per cast hitting 6 targets

So just two casts of echoing vigor plus ring of preservation would be 70,147 HPS. Plus there's a burst heal available that's a full heal on 6 people.

People have talked like it will be impossible to heal vHoF HM, meanwhile if a stamwarden healer has enough sustain it looks like they'd be able to solo heal it. Realistically it'll be best to have two healers in case one drops; one stam and one mag, but stam healing will pump out the majority of the hps, MagTemp for more synergies/cleanses/mag support sets.

Put echoing vigor on all stam dps, since it's stack, it will heal even more and it's only 1 skill slot.
Mag DPS slot orb in rotation, one put olo, done, no need healer even for trial.
That how I see it.

I've also make an hybrid stam-mag healer with shacklebreaker and amberplasm, it's fun and efficient too, but the fact are, with this patch we don't need healer even more.
The better are the player the less healer are needed cuz it's just about stacking hot in spam dmg phase and avoid OS mechanic. You don't need healer for that.

What it left for us healer ? Spaming Combat Prayer for buff ? Pick purge in case we're in the 3 area who need it ? Look lame af.
Stam heal, should, like mag heal, be link to a weapon tree dedicated to stam heal.
Like I said, stam heal is not the problem, it would be cool to have the possibility to do it.
But the way stam heal are on PTS and live is a true problem imho and I'm very afraid of this.
Healer are already useless in 90% of the content, if it goes even further, I'll just leave cuz I don't enjoy other role.
The way this game is design is bad, to much OS mechanic, and to many free heal making DPS and Tank self-efficient.

There seems to be mixed reports regarding whether or not Echoing Vigor stacks

I was confused on this, someone went on PTS and confirmed it does not.

That's what I thought too, but then I saw another person claiming it did. Are there any clips showing that no healing is received from multiple sources of Echoing Vigor?

Not that I’ve seen. The way it was explained to me is you can have one of every type of vigor on PTS.

Echoing vigor is extremely powerful on PTS. I think half the healing outcry was because echoing vigor was buffed at the same time group mag heals were nerfed, on PTS I theorycrafted a stamwarden build that can break 100k HPS in a trial, it’s pretty crazy.

If people thought they’d stack the outcry was warranted, but I think it doesn’t but have no way to test it solo.

I have a stamwarden healer all ready for the patch, think I’ll log onto PTS after the next set of changes to test it out and convince guildies to help me, since they’re changing it anyways I think it’s best to wait.

SeaUnicorn · August 2019

apri wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

I can understand removing healing springs spam which in itself is -when spammed- already stronger than any combination of different skills. That's indeed bad design from the start and never should have been allowed.

It's bad design indeed but it's also what the game encouraged players to do. Before Olorime became the thing, Spell Power Cure was the healing meta set which can still be seen being used in groups. It highly encourages and rewards overhealing, a sin in most other MMOs. I think a redesign of Spell Power Cure and overhealing would be the better approach than to destroy a skill. If overhealing would be punished, there would be no reason to nerf healing springs. There would also be no reason to nerf vigor or rapid regen or any skill of choice if the game mechanics would punish overuse. And on top: Such a game mechanic would also reduce server load from a performance standpoint.

Example for a penalty by healing springs overuse: Make stacks of healing springs without any actual healing take the aggro away from the tank. This would enforce a mindful usage of springs. A healer being attacked by each and everyone out of a sudden would quickly learn to use the tools reasonably. Since this new mechanic might be abused by tanks for tanking, it could be changed towards randomized aggro. It might just override the tank's aggro and spread it randomly among the party members - a situation no group would tolerate for long. That's two simple solutions that come to my mind.

Example for a penalty for vigor/rapid regen overuse: Unless vigor or rapid regen actually heals, make it turn into a dot against the caster that becomes stronger the longer no damage hits the caster. That could prevent mindless vigor and rapid stacks, too.

What I don't understand is how you can not take into account the relative healing power of a pure healer versus a dps. Whatever selfheal a DPS has should be completely neglectable when compared to a pure healer.

So true. Also there is the resto staff, a healing staff. A staff that is dedicated for healing should by definition be a stronger tool for healing than a random weapon of choice.

Why would you make a skill that penalizes you for using it. Makes no sense. It's hard enough to get 12ppl group synergy without having tanks yelling at healers for grabbing aggro by accidentally casting 2 HS. Game needs to be enjoyable, not punitive and inflammatory.

Just design it similar to other hots where it's reapplied instead of stacking, but give it proper HPS amount to match the output with previous version.

Overhealing is a nessesity in ESO, due to game design and 1s gcd you can not heal reactively (I.e. Wait till someone's health drops and react with targeted heal).

Healers are forced to layer heals preemptively on targets who are most likely to take damage - hence overhealing.

If you reactively heal - your target will be dead by the time game allows you to cast the skill.

apri · August 2019

slofwnd wrote: »

Why would you make a skill that penalizes you for using it. Makes no sense. It's hard enough to get 12ppl group synergy without having tanks yelling at healers for grabbing aggro by accidentally casting 2 HS. Game needs to be enjoyable, not punitive and inflammatory.

I'm not saying that my suggestion is the solution. But I try to come up with a different approach than the usual nerf case scenario we see all over the place. I see a place for a powerful skill that has a backside if used mindlessly over a skill that's being nerfed to the point it's questionable to even slot it in the first place.

Overhealing is a nessesity in ESO, due to game design and 1s gcd you can not heal reactively (I.e. Wait till someone's health drops and react with targeted heal).

I agree that HoTs are proactively used. I question however that overhealing is a necessity on a large scale. It may be to an extent but it should not be the rule. Since it would be a new mechanic, I agree that the system needs adjustments to make this mechanic work. However, if we have side-effects on certain skills that limit the stacks when the stacks are not needed but keep the skills useful for burst and other high damage phases (where the skills fail to deliver on PTS atm), I think that would be excellent in particular for trials and for the healing role as a specialist who is trained to use the skills appropriately.

If we ignore the trend of expendability of healer as a role and keep things as they are, we hand over healing to DPS who put vigor into their rotation. The more thought we need to put into the healing skills we use, the better the situation becomes for the healer as the specialist. If mindless heals penalize the caster (who could as well be a vigor spamming DPS), that's a layer of stress that may be too much to be handled by focused damage dealers who need to deal with other mechanics on top. That in the consequence might make a "proper" healer become more appealing in a group again and would actually make the game more enjoyable for healers (feeling wanted again) despite the potential negative side-effect of certain skills. But I'm open to better suggestions anyday. I just do not want to see healers disappear as a role. That would do the game no good.

If you reactively heal - your target will be dead by the time game allows you to cast the skill.

Agreed, at least partially. But then again if we forget about vigor for a moment, exactly that is what we see on PTS atm. If we totally blend out vigor, it looks like healing shifts towards a burst meta with class-driven skills. If the potency of healing springs is rip, reactive burst heals (which are hard to sustain) take over - so that's no good either. With the suggestions I gave we keep HS for those bursty situations without drawback (and without dps-driven vigor to step in because vigor would not be useful for each healing scenario anymore). And for the other situations we can pick other skills plus mindfully set healing springs that may serve the situations better and allow some kind of overheal.

But then again, don't judge me too hard. That's just a suggestion I made and I do not claim it to be the one and only solution. There may be better ways to achieve the same. For example to keep HS as it is on live and to improve the servers to handle them properly instead. That would be my favorite.

Elwendryll · August 2019

Following the change to Power Surge, 3s tick rate feels too long. I'd rather have a tick every 2 seconds and a 20/30 seconds total duration instead of a tick every 3 seconds and a 33 seconds duration.

The total Healing per second is lower when compared with other AOE HoTs, but I do like that this can be used on both magicka and stamina builds as it's a fixed value.