PTS Update 23 - Feedback Thread for PvE Healing

TheNightflame

stileanima wrote: »

[...] What then should we do in the meantime when no healing is needed/no damage is incoming? To me it seems like we'd largely just be waiting around for those healing-intensive moments to happen, doing very little otherwise.

A great way to put it

profundidob16_ESO

RogueShark wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

so last night I completed vLOM as pure healer and I have to say I like healing alot more now. It's become a full time job in vet content rather than pressing you 1-button-I win "healing springs" only when you really need it and play half dps/tank the rest of the time along with buffbot role.

I noticed just like tanks never had an aoe taunt which forces them to actively do the tanking job with limited tools (single target taunts + aoe cc) now the healers too no longer have easy aoe burst healing and need to combine weak aoe/single hots with strong single target burst heals in order to keep people alive.

I kinda of...really like this ! Healing becomes an actual fulltime job again

...Healing has always been a full-time job.
Excluding 4man content (which is what you enjoyed so much), because healers are literally not needed in 4man content... I have had friends CARRY (as in, they paid) people through vBRP with 2 DD + 1 tank setup (plus the carry). That's arguably some of the hardest 4man content in the game, and it was done without a healer. It will be even more easier to refuse healers from 4man content with vigor changes; DPS can heal themselves potently, they don't need you.

These changes really hurt in trials, especially veteran HM, and they distinctly hurt off-meta healers.
I'm glad you're enjoying it, but healers are not needed in 4man content now, and they definitely won't be needed in 4man content next patch.

agreed about the trials. After completing vSS HM on live and having played healer on PTS I don't see how we will be able to complete it again in the current state of PTS.

Saril_Durzam

Was checking changes, i must say that dungeon healing is way more interesting, but im currently facing two problems.

1) vet trials healing output not enough, speciall about AOE healing.
2) with vigor buff, if there are stamina DPSers the healer role is not needed in dungeons at all.

Turtilla

I have already voiced my opinion in one of the previous threads concerning the healing changes, but I shall repost some of the stuff here too. I hope you've read through the other posts too.

As a Templar healer main I am not that much offset by the changes (I still have shards and ritual and a multitude of class-specific healing skills), but my friends who play, for instance, Sorc healers, are in deep trouble. Nerfing the non-class specific healing abilities like that is not a good idea. As much as I like the change to the orbs with them not disappearing after the synergy is used (which will force a somewhat different playstyle), I am worried about the huge HPS loss. Both orbs and Grand Healing used to be the go-to skill for damage spikes. Every trial has something that requires big heals:

• vAA - overcharge, stone atro stomp, final boss execute
• vHRC - shia storm, generally hardmode there
• vSO - overcharge, poison phase on the final boss
• vMoL - first boss shield phase, barrage (with a less experienced tank)
• vHoF - (haven't done this in a while) execute on the final boss and probably quite a few other fights
• vAS - whatever hell breaks loose there, on frontkiter I actually wouldn't use these skills as much, but I think backkiter would not be happy with the nerfs
• vCR - especially +something, the fight with Z'Maja will be insane, it requires a lot of constant healing, not just emergency heals
• vSS - ice tombs on Lokke, atro phases on Lokke, stacking on Yolnakhriin, soul tear or whatever the name of it is on the final boss
• and also also, vBRP in a less experienced group - the second arena is probably the most healing-intense stuff I've completed recently, I don't know how I'd be supposed to do it with these changes.

With the changes to healers, if, as you say, you intend to push DDs into playing more defensively, I feel we will end up with even more groups running no healers at all, since their utility is running even more dry now - and this is something I would hate to see. I also feel that the top groups will find their way around this, while the less experienced people will only get discouraged when they wipe even more due to insufficient healing.

KatySpirit

Nightblade healer here.

I like not having to spam Healing Springs and Orbs. That helps with healer sustain. Thank you for making Orb give a synergy to multiple people. However, my class lacks a really solid replacement for a stack of Healing Springs in a burst damage phase such as the first boss of vMoL. I think every class has this problem.

Path is very small and it is hard to see the boarder of it. Love the increased healing, still miss the damage. Even combined with Springs it isn't giving close to the level of healing that a stack of Springs could.

Funnal Health looks even WORSE now compared with Mutagen. The damage cut was too extreme, which I have already said. The healing should at least tick every second, two seconds is too far between. I also have no idea why you changed it from guaranteed healing the caster, NB healers need incoming healing to counter Offering, and that the final straw for me on this skill.

Lilly_Elessa

Healing wasn't broken before. Don't "fix" it.

Healing Springs did not need any changes. The PTS springs is so weak that it's basically not worth slotting anymore - And as has already been said probably a few hundred times, and will continue to be repeated: This skill as it currently functions on live is NEEDED for vet content.
The other skills we have available, class skills and not, are not strong enough and/or not flexible enough (short range, bad shapes, etc) to cover the needs of the content. It might be one thing if we were facing a change where we might need to swap out a few different skills for different situations. But that's not what we're facing here; We're looking at classes and group compositions that literally no longer have the tools required.

Maybe Orbs could have used a pass, but after messing around with the PTS sad singular orb it's definitely the wrong direction. The multiple synergy activation makes the orb not an utter catastrophe, but it's still bad. I heard someone else suggest an increasing cost if Orbs were used in rapid succession kinda like dodge to get their use spaced out a little more instead of just spammed, that's not a bad suggestion. Other people suggested the limit be three orbs, this sounds clunky to work with but at least more functional than one.

Regeneration (pick your fav morph) does feel better ... But also for only hitting one person it's now less usable in trials, where healing just got hit the hardest and we need something to fill it.
Siphon Spirit feels like an option now that it's instant.

My serious concerns about healers being pushed out of content are not alleviated at all. We're already being pushed out of dungeons. It's already growing in popularity to only run one healer in trials. Getting my hands on these changes on the PTS have only made my concerns feel more validated.
I will try to mess with it some more, but there is no light down this tunnel. I do have thoughts on how to adapt if the presented changes go through, but they are not something that will be fun or engaging.

PoseidonEvil

I just want to be kept update on the changes lol. if orbs is reduced to only 1 active at a time healers everywhere will be devastated. if a nerf is required I say maybe make it 4 active at a time or something along those lines.

giantpixie

I have two questions regarding these changes.
1. How do these changes help promote the whole any class any role thing?

2. How do these changes help healers be worth while in 4 man content?

As far as I can tell these changes do not help these areas at all. Templar’s and wardens already have the highest healing output and you want to further the gap by nerfing the heals available to all classes?

Also how does reducing our healing output make us more valuable in 4 man content?

AWinterWolf

The nerfs were just awful, no need for it, just a handful of people calling for it, and it was an unnecessary change. You've made the game worse, not better for healers, we're not needed in content as it is, this has just made it all 10x worse.
My advice would simply be, reverse the changes, scrap the need to nerf healers to non-existence, in an attempt to promote this, 'any class any role.'

Focus your efforts on fixing bugs, that'll attract more people in, nerfing a healer's toolkit will just see many of us quit.

ATreeGnome

The changes make healers less valuable across all PvE content, which has been an issue for a long time.

The changes disproportionately hurt classes that were already less favored as healers, which has also been an issue for a long time.

It seems likely that the changes will be a bigger proportional DPS loss for new/average skill level groups than it will for experienced groups, which will quickly find ways to adapt with minimal DPS loss.

It's really hard for me to see how nerfing healers is the optimal way to make groups build more defensively. I do agree though that rewarding defensive builds/strategies more in PvE is a good direction - DPS potential has gotten out of hand over the years.

HaemaMagus

I don't see how any of these changes are a good step forward.

1. These healing changes further divide the gap between templar/warden and all other healers. Not shorten.
2. These healing changes make it so that said 4 other classes cannot even complete normal trial content.
3. Echoing Vigor change does not help with keeping damage dealers alive it instead makes it so that the healing role in trials can be completely voided.
4. These changes overall do not fix the issue of "healers feeling unneeded in content" (4mans/trials). They further cement it.

The only thing this patch achieved was nullify the healing role in PvE.

Narvuntien

Soooo.... my pet sorc got gutted any chance of some buffs to Sorc healers? at least give me some actual sorc abilities I feel like I should be using (other than just the pet)

stileanima

Some of my logs for those who are saying that all end game healers currently do is spam Orbs and Springs:

https://prnt.sc/odcfjh

Yes, there are 56 Orb casts, but look at all else that is being done as well: casting many Vigors to proc PA; many Harvests for synergies for Major Slayer; Blockade for Off Balance; many Combat Prayers for Berserk; Enchanted Growth for Minor Endurance; other skills for other buffs. I hardly cast any Illustrious Healing at all.

Yes, Orbs dominate in that they are the skill I cast most frequently, but this is because 1 Orb offers sustain to 1 DD at a time, whereas all my other skills offer sustained buffs for multiple people at a time. Most Orbs are necessary casts to provide 8 DDs with sustain, not "mindless spam". The overhealing is simply a side effect of needing to throw many Orbs so that my DDs have the necessary resources to do damage.

I do not mention this to say that the current system is flawless, but to drive home that end game healers do more than spam Orbs, and that we throw them largely out of necessity. I hope that if the one Orb change comes to pass, we are given something else to do in between keeping up all of these other long-lasting buffs, and now even longer lasting HoT that is Grand Healing. Please keep in mind that sustained healing over time is NOT necessary in most if not all raid encounters-- there are short bursts where intensive healing is needed, and then phases where little to no incoming damage happens at all. I would like to still be able to contribute to the group in ways other than "just" healing, or waiting around for healing these high damage moments.

Cinbri

Maybe it time to address Resto staff and equalize it to other weapon lines in term of enchant proc and make resto staff heals/HoTs to proc weapon damage enchant (berserker).

Nordic__Knights

Guess its time to try making an stam healer spamming vigor hircine's and salvation show work ok for that lots of stam with high heals hopefully 😆

ArcaneBlue

primum non nocere!

Ozby

As a main healer myself who does vet HM trials etc and 4 mans I'm very disappointed to these proposed changes to healers. If this goes forward it will ruin everything healers have going for them and further push us out of being needed in the content. I am okay with the 1 orb now that it can be used multiple times I can work with that. But I don't see how we can work around the Healing springs nerf. That's just too much of a nerf to be honest. If you are trying to take a load off your servers find a better way please or you will loose players especially healer players for sure. I have noticed for a while now that this game has been trying to push healers out and I have never been okay with it, please find a better solution that will make Healers desirable in content again because as it stands right now it just feels like ZOS only cares about PVP criers whinging that heals are to powerful.

Iskiab

The issue is simple: restoration and guild abilities were stronger then class abilities for healing. You’ve reversed this so it will create issues for all non Templar or Warden healers.

Make the restoration and guild skills stronger or let us know if only these two classes are meant to heal.

Razorback174

Iskiab wrote: »

Make the restoration and guild skills stronger or let us know if only these two classes are meant to heal.

This already seems to be happening. And while it may be nice in theory, it certainly seems like they're murdering every single aspect of class identity to get there. You just have to look at the insanely stupid addition of fear to Turn Evil to see that. What used to be a unique CC available to NB's and Necro's has been entirely eclipsed and given to EVERY class now.

Should all classes be able to play all roles effectively? I certainly believe so, but in each their own unique way. Once you've made all the essential skills non-class based, why bother with a class system at all?

tyggerbob

Iskiab

Razorback174 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Make the restoration and guild skills stronger or let us know if only these two classes are meant to heal.

This already seems to be happening. And while it may be nice in theory, it certainly seems like they're murdering every single aspect of class identity to get there. You just have to look at the insanely stupid addition of fear to Turn Evil to see that. What used to be a unique CC available to NB's and Necro's has been entirely eclipsed and given to EVERY class now.

Should all classes be able to play all roles effectively? I certainly believe so, but in each their own unique way. Once you've made all the essential skills non-class based, why bother with a class system at all?

Well they’re going in two directions at once.

For healing, yes there wasn’t that much special about any specific class. The restoration line abilities plus orbs was enough to clear any content - even HM VetHoF - so yea the difference between healers was small. The reason Templars and Wardens were preferred was shards, cleanse synergy and minor toughness - that’s it.

The weaker resto and guild skills become for healing the wider the gap will become with potentially some classes being unable to heal.

DPS is going the opposite direction. Weapon and guild skills are becoming more powerful so classes are becoming more similar.

If this trend continues you have to ask yourself why play a class without healing abilities built into their skills. You aren’t going to use many of your damage class skills anyways, might as well only play a class with healing skills.

HaemaMagus

Razorback174 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Make the restoration and guild skills stronger or let us know if only these two classes are meant to heal.

This already seems to be happening. And while it may be nice in theory, it certainly seems like they're murdering every single aspect of class identity to get there. You just have to look at the insanely stupid addition of fear to Turn Evil to see that. What used to be a unique CC available to NB's and Necro's has been entirely eclipsed and given to EVERY class now.

Should all classes be able to play all roles effectively? I certainly believe so, but in each their own unique way. Once you've made all the essential skills non-class based, why bother with a class system at all?

Its not impossible for each class to heal in their own way. It requires work and major overhauls. Question is, is ZoS willing to do that.

Sorc needs a major skill overhaul if its going to heal. 1 skill isn't enough to work it. I have no idea how you could even do it without effecting its damaging capabilities.

DK and Necro I haven't looked at extensively, but DK could be a healer that specializes in shields and preventing damage from happening kinda like Disc priest in WoW back in the WotLK days. Necro will need someone else to give ideas to.

NB has the easiest transition imo. You can either bring them back as a healer who heals through damage or you can make them a strong HoT healer by tweaking Funnel Health, Sap Essence and making Refreshing Path at least bigger than Combat Prayer.

These are just my off the top of my head ideas. My issue isn't that classes can't do all roles in their own way because in theory they can, its how long do we have to wait to get there? Ideally these healing changes should also come with more class changes to help the other classes have the tools they need to adapt. If ZoS is planning to do that in the long run, why not wait til we have those changes instead of making 4 classes dead in terms of healing?

gamerbunny9910_ESO

HaemaMagus wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Make the restoration and guild skills stronger or let us know if only these two classes are meant to heal.

This already seems to be happening. And while it may be nice in theory, it certainly seems like they're murdering every single aspect of class identity to get there. You just have to look at the insanely stupid addition of fear to Turn Evil to see that. What used to be a unique CC available to NB's and Necro's has been entirely eclipsed and given to EVERY class now.

Should all classes be able to play all roles effectively? I certainly believe so, but in each their own unique way. Once you've made all the essential skills non-class based, why bother with a class system at all?

Its not impossible for each class to heal in their own way. It requires work and major overhauls. Question is, is ZoS willing to do that.

Sorc needs a major skill overhaul if its going to heal. 1 skill isn't enough to work it. I have no idea how you could even do it without effecting its damaging capabilities.

DK and Necro I haven't looked at extensively, but DK could be a healer that specializes in shields and preventing damage from happening kinda like Disc priest in WoW back in the WotLK days. Necro will need someone else to give ideas to.

NB has the easiest transition imo. You can either bring them back as a healer who heals through damage or you can make them a strong HoT healer by tweaking Funnel Health, Sap Essence and making Refreshing Path at least bigger than Combat Prayer.

These are just my off the top of my head ideas. My issue isn't that classes can't do all roles in their own way because in theory they can, its how long do we have to wait to get there? Ideally these healing changes should also come with more class changes to help the other classes have the tools they need to adapt. If ZoS is planning to do that in the long run, why not wait til we have those changes instead of making 4 classes dead in terms of healing?

I put some ideas in this thread here that are similar to yours. I agree that class identity should be the focus when creating differences between the healers. What do you think?

baratron

@ZOS_BrianWheeler Here's some data for you.

We weren't able to get a full Trial group going because a lot of people simply can't afford the 85+ GB second download for the PTS Client. However, we took 8 players into Veteran Aetherian Archive on Live and on PTS 5.1.0.

Live report: https://www.esologs.com/reports/h8jNFxP1g4GX6yvt/#fight=last
PTS report: https://www.esologs.com/reports/7CMBX3YZbRthDzav/#fight=last

You'll notice that we ran with the same characters, and as much as possible the same gear, skills, food, potions, CP and attribute setup in order to make this a fair test.

Looking at only my healing,
Live:


PTS:


Some things to note:
0] Many of us were playing without our usual addons on PTS.

1] Both encounters lasted almost exactly the same time. 5:05 minutes on Live, 5:06 minutes on PTS.

2] I did 23 casts of Healing Springs on Live and 22 casts on PTS. The crit percentages were also very similar, 38.4% on Live and 39.6% on PTS. However, I did 85.2k healing on Live - with the current rules where you can place Healing Springs multiple times and have them stack, compared to 190.9k healing on PTS - where you can only place one at a time. This is an increase from 279.0 to 623.2 heals per second.

3] I cast Energy Orb 45 times on Live and 26 times on PTS. This corresponded to 462.9 heals per second on Live and 415.5 heals per second on PTS.

4] There were 6 deaths on Live and 3 deaths on PTS.

Obviously since this fight has a randomness element to it (which yellow circle do you need to run to?), it isn't a perfect comparison. But so far, it doesn't look like the hopeless disaster which a lot of players have suggested.

Future plans:
1] Try harder content. We wanted to try the Mantikora of Veteran Sanctum Ophidia but couldn't get enough people.

2] Try runs with different classes of Healer, e.g. Templar + Warden, Templar + Necromancer, Templar + Sorcerer rather than two Templars. We both found that we were casting a lot of Breath of Life on PTS and would be interested to see whether e.g. a Warden or Necromancer plus a Sorcerer would be good enough to heal a Veteran Trial.

Thank you very much to my friends and allies from UESP and Dominion Imperial Guard who allowed themselves to be cajoled into this test. I hope to see more data from advanced Trial Guilds soon.

Nightingale707

@baratron I am sorry but I need to tell you this: your tests are not useful for a comparison, since you chose a fight that has none of the issues that healers see: phases of high incoming damage.
the lightning storm atronach in vAA doesn´t need a healer at all atm, it needs someone to provide buffs/debuffs and orbs

and to me it makes sense, that your springs would do more healing, since you probably always had it down under the group as a HoT instead of just using it when a high damage phase comes

if you want to test the changes to healing you need to go and test it in a fight that actually reqires healers on live server.

Aznarb

Agree with @Nightingame707, I barely use spring on vAA.
Mostly on execute from last boss, but even here, he die so fast and the burst phase is so weak it's not mandatory at all.

Better to try in vCR+3, vHoF, vSS, thing like that.

edit :
That said I appreciate the feedback @baratron try to provide.
Hope you can try some harder content and let us know, sadly the PTS is to long to DL for my connection

Lord_Eomer

No one should be unkillable in PVP, one of reason for such builds is Too much heals.

With super heals Vet trials becomes jolk too,

ZOS have done much better this patch ans expecting healing most changes to be as is over the PTS cycle.

Iskiab

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

No one should be unkillable in PVP, one of reason for such builds is Too much heals.

With super heals Vet trials becomes jolk too,

ZOS have done much better this patch ans expecting healing most changes to be as is over the PTS cycle.

You’ve got it backwards. It isn’t an issue that healers heal too much, it’s an issue that self healing is too high so a healer isn’t required.

This patch has gone in the wrong direction, unkillable tanks will be harder to take down not easier.

baratron

Nightingale707 wrote: »

@baratron I am sorry but I need to tell you this: your tests are not useful for a comparison, since you chose a fight that has none of the issues that healers see: phases of high incoming damage.
the lightning storm atronach in vAA doesn´t need a healer at all atm, it needs someone to provide buffs/debuffs and orbs

and to me it makes sense, that your springs would do more healing, since you probably always had it down under the group as a HoT instead of just using it when a high damage phase comes

if you want to test the changes to healing you need to go and test it in a fight that actually reqires healers on live server.

I actually said in the post that we wanted to try the Mantikora of Veteran Sanctum Ophidia but couldn't get enough people. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find people capable of doing Veteran content who are willing/able to test on the PTS? I spent four days recruiting. I sent messages to all of my friends who are good players, to two different guilds, and to a Discord server of PC-NA Guildmasters. Several of the other players also tried to recruit extra Damage Dealers. Most people told us that they didn't have the hard drive space for an extra 85 GB+ download.

Frankly, the way the PTS works - as an entirely separate Client - restricts many people from helping who would otherwise be interested.

What would you suggest as "a fight that actually reqires healers on live server"? You can see from the DPS in the logs - we only have two very good/top tier Damage Dealers. Therefore we can do Veteran Craglorn Trials or Veteran Asylum Sanctorium. We haven't completed Vet Cloudrest, Maw or HoF on Live, so there's no way we can do them on PTS - let alone with only 8 players instead of 12.

Are you willing to come along as a Damage Dealer? If so, our test was at 8pm US Eastern Time (midnight GMT), and I'd like to run more tests around this time next week with patch 5.1.1.

Tsar_Gekkou

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

No one should be unkillable in PVP, one of reason for such builds is Too much heals.

With super heals Vet trials becomes jolk too,

ZOS have done much better this patch ans expecting healing most changes to be as is over the PTS cycle.

If healing made vet trials a joke, then everyone would hsve no problem beating the hardest content. Seeing as how most people can't, healing most obviously wasn't an issue.