[Werewolf Scalebreaker feedback] - "Why most of the changes are unjustified and needs tweaking"
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ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭liningtonsweldingb16_ESO wrote: »liningtonsweldingb16_ESO wrote: »It’s clear from each PTS patch that they are actively listening to feedback on many things. I don’t get why Werewolf has had absolute silence, despite getting quite a few changes - which are more impactful than any of my other characters are experiencing.
Just say you think you did a good job and Werewolves are perfect now, if that’s what you think...
Doesn’t help you get some werewolves defending the state of wws on pts...
Posting parses and countering complaints made by other players is kind of a stupid thing to do.. but then again these guys are pvers and they have no idea how *** wws are going to be in pvp
Holy smokes am I a pve'r now?!
You seem like one tbh
I could tell that many of the complaints came from those who hadn't actually tested the changes, and that others still had room to adapt to the changes.
What doesn't do any of us any good is jumping to conclusions, be it about changes to the game, or about their fellow player's expertise.
You may right , I'll test myself in console later .
I am more aware the performance of WW in 4 man and 12 man group play in PVE , and I assume 2 WW the max .0 -
Lord_Eomer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Seems like nerf bomb will last this patch to WW,
ZOS is not showing any sign for WW changes.1 -
Lord_Eomer wrote: »Seems like nerf bomb will last this patch to WW,
ZOS is not showing any sign for WW changes.
Unfortunately you are correct.. time to brainstorm some new builds ww isn’t going to be good enough to justify running an even gimpier human form to make it at all affective.. RIP WW at least for now1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭liningtonsweldingb16_ESO wrote: »Lord_Eomer wrote: »Seems like nerf bomb will last this patch to WW,
ZOS is not showing any sign for WW changes.
Unfortunately you are correct.. time to brainstorm some new builds ww isn’t going to be good enough to justify running an even gimpier human form to make it at all affective.. RIP WW at least for now
Will last for the next 3 yrs like prior WW neglect. If you like WW, time to go back to Skyrim or wait for ES6.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions3 -
Vordac✭✭Glad to see the dps drop isn't as far as I thought with the switch to the berserker morph, at least from a pve standpoint. While I can see the position of nerfs to LA and Howl in terms of adhering to skill standards as being reasonable (and even justified from the perspective of neutering some of the burst it has from a pvp perspective), I don't think this approach is completely applicable to some of the other DPS elements to WW gameplay. Yes, the damage output of claws is on par currently with other DPS standards but this ignores the fact that non-WW gameplay allows for overlaying multiple DOT (single target and AoE) elements with typical live rotations from stam builds including around of 4-5. Even when directly substituting casts for howls and accounting for the addition of the ww bleed you're only making up for ~ 80% of the damage these skills provide in theory. For WW to be completely on par it needs to bring something extra, and preferably unique to the table. The utility skills would be perfect for this, given they're universally underwhelming.
Overall, one critique of the approach ZOS has taken with WW skill standardisation is that that extra 25% strength should apply to all elements of a skill. Feel this is good on PTS for howl and claws but not so for the other three which, as they've admitted, feel bare. Skills should have 25% more overall utility than their equivalent, and morphs should be 25% more effective. Not just base damage/heal values copy-pasted at a 1.25 % multiplier (pounce is exactly this).
Some suggestions based on personal opinion:
Pounce:
While the damage/cost is relatively standardised to other gap closers, what has been ignored is that nearly all of these are loaded with additional effects. For example, ambush applies a debuff, empower and synergises with class passives. Additional functionality should be grafted onto this skill (as hinted at in PTS Patch Notes v5.1.0). Could give it the Crit charge treatment, applying a bleed base. Or, as @Chrlynsch suggested, some kind of group based minor debuff.
Roar:
Literally a reskinned mass hysteria for slightly higher cost this skill, suffers from the same issues as mass hysteria; totem and turn undead do the same thing but vastly better. The base effect of both skills needs to provide comparable utility. In terms of the morph variants, the fracture morph is redundant from a pve standpoint (more so with the changes to razor caltrops which now provide the same effect in addition to providing some dot component) in any reasonable composed group. The off-balance morph should receive the same treatment in that application of off-balance should be independent of the fear component.
Hircines:
Like others, think the changes were a little too overboard - either nerf the potency or the cost but not both. Vigor on PTS should tick for 2/3 of the heal of hircines base heal (~half of the more potent variant) for 40% of the cost. Either make it a more potent version of vigour (costing stam), change it to scale off stam as per coagulating blood, or a mixed burst and HoT like artic wind. In terms of art elements, adding a HoT visual effect shouldn't be too hard given that previous morph iterations were tied to unique visuals (miss that red-backed wolf)
Again, in scaling this skill they're ignoring the inherent value these skills provide outside of the heal - DB comes with a bunch of passive buffs and class passive synergies, clannfear provides minor damage while also synergising with class passives, cloak provides minor protection etc. Would be nice if the lesser morph provided some utility other than a largely redundant buff (from a pve standpoint). Perhaps allow for application of a unique buff on LA (major lifesteal, or major stam steal). Or major/minor reave, to aid in resource trading and management. Something to bring value to this skill in a standardised rotation.
Resource management:
While 25% is a nice benchmark, this is increased a bit more by losses to inherent class-based resource management which are tied to skills (netch, siphoning/leeching) and account for maybe 10% of resource gen. Honestly kind of like this element to ww gameplay in that, in terms of build design, you can leverage additional damage in speccing for greater resource management through incorporation of additional howls into the rotation. WW, being frontloaded with damage, for me, is more about management of the timer and resources - it adds complexity to the class and this makes it interesting. My personal opinion though is that this is the more appropriate way to balance ww as opposed to straight skill nerfs. The major issue from a balance perspective is that the timer is way too lenient outside of open-world pvp and this means that you cannot create the feel of a 'fast paced threat that is a terrifying foe' without it being out of control given its current simple design. One suggestion would be to make the timer harder to manage, but off-set this with passives that elevate damage based on gated timer positions. Or a timer with some exponential speed increase, where the curve is reset on devour? Probably a little too much to balance/code reliably but some food for thought. At the very minimum, a rework of call of the pack (this is one of the sources of the stated problems with pre-made ww groups in BG's) to provide something different, preferably damage orientated. Perhaps a low-duration (1s) stackable buff that elevates damage on target. Hence, incentivising aggressive single-target gameplay - a ww's niche.
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jediodyn_ESO✭✭✭✭T3hasiangod wrote: »Please do not misquote my videos or use my videos in a manner that comes to false conclusions.
Please do not make false statements based on gross hypothetical assumptions. As a content creator posting your content here to this forum, you have a responsibility to make responsible statements that will not mislead the less savvy, which sadly probably includes the development team.
In the first thirty seconds of your video you make the most ignorant statement that will induce reflex facepalm for any PvP player who's done even one duel on the PTS server. "...that will largely effect PvE people, less so for PvP... not really going to affect PvP too much..." These changes ENORMOUSLY affect PvP. The berserker WW build doesn't come close to having the survivability and use of the pack leader because of the pets providing targeting defense, constant damage, and utility.
You then go on to say "...anyways I'm not really focused in on PvP..." So don't misinform people about it!!! It's OK that you don't PvP much, or clearly enough to understand how these changes will be affecting those of us who do, but at least don't inject your totally ignorant opinion into the first (aka most watched) 30 seconds of your otherwise data driven video.
FOR EVERYONE WHO THINKS THAT SWITCHING FROM PACKLEADER TO BERSERKER IS NOT A BIG DEAL (PvP or PvE)
You are missing the huge point that the pets provide a ton of damage reduction. All these YouTubers doing parses on a dummy and saying "oh, look, the damage wont change that much" are missing the huge point that every hit one of your pets take is a hit that you, or someone in your raid, is not taking. This is a giant change and a huge nerf. It speaks oceans about bad balancing that in the current version the "utility" WW morph actually does more damage than the dps morph! Making youtube videos of banging on stationary objects while using the best WW addons (not available to the entire console population) does not fairly represent the severe impact of these nerfs.
The current balancing changes are awful, clearly poorly researched, and poorly thought through. If the rumors about this entire skill line getting nerfed for under 50 BG pvp are true, then the dev team should feel ashamed. WW is not at all competitive in end game PvP or PvE, and making it even worse (right before the Halloween holiday $ea$on) is a poorly implemented design move.
I'll let Bruce Lee explain my point:
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Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jediodyn_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »Please do not misquote my videos or use my videos in a manner that comes to false conclusions.
Please do not make false statements based on gross hypothetical assumptions. As a content creator posting your content here to this forum, you have a responsibility to make responsible statements that will not mislead the less savvy, which sadly probably includes the development team.
In the first thirty seconds of your video you make the most ignorant statement that will induce reflex facepalm for any PvP player who's done even one duel on the PTS server. "...that will largely effect PvE people, less so for PvP... not really going to affect PvP too much..." These changes ENORMOUSLY affect PvP. The berserker WW build doesn't come close to having the survivability and use of the pack leader because of the pets providing targeting defense, constant damage, and utility.
You then go on to say "...anyways I'm not really focused in on PvP..." So don't misinform people about it!!! It's OK that you don't PvP much, or clearly enough to understand how these changes will be affecting those of us who do, but at least don't inject your totally ignorant opinion into the first (aka most watched) 30 seconds of your otherwise data driven video.
FOR EVERYONE WHO THINKS THAT SWITCHING FROM PACKLEADER TO BERSERKER IS NOT A BIG DEAL (PvP or PvE)
You are missing the huge point that the pets provide a ton of damage reduction. All these YouTubers doing parses on a dummy and saying "oh, look, the damage wont change that much" are missing the huge point that every hit one of your pets take is a hit that you, or someone in your raid, is not taking. This is a giant change and a huge nerf. It speaks oceans about bad balancing that in the current version the "utility" WW morph actually does more damage than the dps morph! Making youtube videos of banging on stationary objects while using the best WW addons (not available to the entire console population) does not fairly represent the severe impact of these nerfs.
The current balancing changes are awful, clearly poorly researched, and poorly thought through. If the rumors about this entire skill line getting nerfed for under 50 BG pvp are true, then the dev team should feel ashamed. WW is not at all competitive in end game PvP or PvE, and making it even worse (right before the Halloween holiday $ea$on) is a poorly implemented design move.
I'll let Bruce Lee explain my point:
I'm glad to see that you are passionate about werewolf, as many of us are. But let me enlighten you.
That T3hasiangod didn't post his video to the forum, someone else did.
I don't disagree with your point about pack leader effectiveness in pvp or even solo pve. The about of damage that your direwolves take currently is a big bonus to having them. But...
In group pve content (Dungeon or raid) The dires don't do what you say they do. Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
So when I and other players say "oh, look, the damage wont change that much". We are correct.
Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA2 -
butterrum222✭✭✭I think most people were upset with the performance of WW primarily in bgs, instead of nerfing WW, if bgs forced you to start with zero uti, that would level the playing field without the need to nerf1 -
jediodyn_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »Please do not misquote my videos or use my videos in a manner that comes to false conclusions.
Please do not make false statements based on gross hypothetical assumptions. As a content creator posting your content here to this forum, you have a responsibility to make responsible statements that will not mislead the less savvy, which sadly probably includes the development team.
In the first thirty seconds of your video you make the most ignorant statement that will induce reflex facepalm for any PvP player who's done even one duel on the PTS server. "...that will largely effect PvE people, less so for PvP... not really going to affect PvP too much..." These changes ENORMOUSLY affect PvP. The berserker WW build doesn't come close to having the survivability and use of the pack leader because of the pets providing targeting defense, constant damage, and utility.
You then go on to say "...anyways I'm not really focused in on PvP..." So don't misinform people about it!!! It's OK that you don't PvP much, or clearly enough to understand how these changes will be affecting those of us who do, but at least don't inject your totally ignorant opinion into the first (aka most watched) 30 seconds of your otherwise data driven video.
FOR EVERYONE WHO THINKS THAT SWITCHING FROM PACKLEADER TO BERSERKER IS NOT A BIG DEAL (PvP or PvE)
You are missing the huge point that the pets provide a ton of damage reduction. All these YouTubers doing parses on a dummy and saying "oh, look, the damage wont change that much" are missing the huge point that every hit one of your pets take is a hit that you, or someone in your raid, is not taking. This is a giant change and a huge nerf. It speaks oceans about bad balancing that in the current version the "utility" WW morph actually does more damage than the dps morph! Making youtube videos of banging on stationary objects while using the best WW addons (not available to the entire console population) does not fairly represent the severe impact of these nerfs.
The current balancing changes are awful, clearly poorly researched, and poorly thought through. If the rumors about this entire skill line getting nerfed for under 50 BG pvp are true, then the dev team should feel ashamed. WW is not at all competitive in end game PvP or PvE, and making it even worse (right before the Halloween holiday $ea$on) is a poorly implemented design move.
I'll let Bruce Lee explain my point:
I'm glad to see that you are passionate about werewolf, as many of us are. But let me enlighten you.
That T3hasiangod didn't post his video to the forum, someone else did.
I don't disagree with your point about pack leader effectiveness in pvp or even solo pve. The about of damage that your direwolves take currently is a big bonus to having them. But...
In group pve content (Dungeon or raid) The dires don't do what you say they do. Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
So when I and other players say "oh, look, the damage wont change that much". We are correct.
The dmg in pve won’t change that much running bis pve gear where all’s you do is light attack and keep dots up... in pvp the dmg and the burst is GREATLY reduced on paper. As well as the survivability being gutted In many different ways... silver bolt buff, poison arrow buff, enormous heal nerf, I can go on and onEdited by liningtonsweldingb16_ESO on July 31, 2019 3:06PM0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭liningtonsweldingb16_ESO wrote: »jediodyn_ESO wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »Please do not misquote my videos or use my videos in a manner that comes to false conclusions.
Please do not make false statements based on gross hypothetical assumptions. As a content creator posting your content here to this forum, you have a responsibility to make responsible statements that will not mislead the less savvy, which sadly probably includes the development team.
In the first thirty seconds of your video you make the most ignorant statement that will induce reflex facepalm for any PvP player who's done even one duel on the PTS server. "...that will largely effect PvE people, less so for PvP... not really going to affect PvP too much..." These changes ENORMOUSLY affect PvP. The berserker WW build doesn't come close to having the survivability and use of the pack leader because of the pets providing targeting defense, constant damage, and utility.
You then go on to say "...anyways I'm not really focused in on PvP..." So don't misinform people about it!!! It's OK that you don't PvP much, or clearly enough to understand how these changes will be affecting those of us who do, but at least don't inject your totally ignorant opinion into the first (aka most watched) 30 seconds of your otherwise data driven video.
FOR EVERYONE WHO THINKS THAT SWITCHING FROM PACKLEADER TO BERSERKER IS NOT A BIG DEAL (PvP or PvE)
You are missing the huge point that the pets provide a ton of damage reduction. All these YouTubers doing parses on a dummy and saying "oh, look, the damage wont change that much" are missing the huge point that every hit one of your pets take is a hit that you, or someone in your raid, is not taking. This is a giant change and a huge nerf. It speaks oceans about bad balancing that in the current version the "utility" WW morph actually does more damage than the dps morph! Making youtube videos of banging on stationary objects while using the best WW addons (not available to the entire console population) does not fairly represent the severe impact of these nerfs.
The current balancing changes are awful, clearly poorly researched, and poorly thought through. If the rumors about this entire skill line getting nerfed for under 50 BG pvp are true, then the dev team should feel ashamed. WW is not at all competitive in end game PvP or PvE, and making it even worse (right before the Halloween holiday $ea$on) is a poorly implemented design move.
I'll let Bruce Lee explain my point:
I'm glad to see that you are passionate about werewolf, as many of us are. But let me enlighten you.
That T3hasiangod didn't post his video to the forum, someone else did.
I don't disagree with your point about pack leader effectiveness in pvp or even solo pve. The about of damage that your direwolves take currently is a big bonus to having them. But...
In group pve content (Dungeon or raid) The dires don't do what you say they do. Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
So when I and other players say "oh, look, the damage wont change that much". We are correct.
The dmg in pve won’t change that much running bis pve gear where all’s you do is light attack and keep dots up... in pvp the dmg and the burst is GREATLY reduced on paper. As well as the survivability being gutted In many different ways... silver bolt buff, poison arrow buff, enormous heal nerf, I can go on and on
I don't think anyone is arguing that werewolf will not have a rough time in pvp if the changes go live.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I am pretty sure that on Live server Dire Wolfs draw agro and can tank dmg, that normally would go to you. Maybe that is the case of a players in dungeons doing more dmg than pets, so it is less visible, but try to go solo to some easier dungeons like Fungal Grotto or Blackheart Haven, or even Maelstrom Arena and you will see that those pets actually CAN hold agro. This is the whole point of Pack Leader morph. It works similar to sorc's pets. Without pets being able to "tank" dmg this morph is pretty much dead in solo play (and without dmg it is dead everywhere else too).Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
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Somnilux✭✭✭My thoughts on ways to improve werewolf from a wholistic approach:
In terms of pve trials, the main benefit to a simplified rotation, speedy movement and such is it allows newer or less skilled players to learn the content and mechanics, or have freedom to drop damage to do things like rez etc on progression guilds while still doing reasonable damage. I'd definitely like to see werewolves have more skill, but its almost impossible to achieve that when you are limited to one skill bar and no ultimate while in werewolf.
Without redesigning this, I think the approach to pve with werewolves being at the bottom of melee classes, but about on par with magicka was reasonable. As of the last patch though with the nerfs in pve to the bleed, werewolves fell below all magicka classes, though not super far. It wasn't great, but it was at least justifiable to bring to raid for aforementioned simplicity when you weren't shooting for a high score. I'm okay with this, any situation you start creeping up close to the other melee classes, the low skill requirement of werewolf would make it unjustifiably good.
However, the high damage and burst potential of werewolves after getting buffed caused some issues in pvp. The only really large counter to werewolves was the extra damage poison vulnerability calculation overperforming and the psychological tendency for every single bow user to target a werewolf out of a group because of that known vulnerability, as well as the clear issues with how easy it is to CC werewolves that are supposed to be a mobile class. This led to all the nerfs we've seen to werewolf damage affecting their pve viability.
I think therefore the approach needs to be putting werewolf damage into buffing other players with you, instead of direct physical damage, without making them a meta class. This means at least one in a raid brings enough to justify running one in a pve trial, without making them stack so everyone changes. Additionally, there needs to be some quality of life improvements to werewolves weaknesses to make up for this damage loss.
I am going to therefore propose the following:
Pounce -
Move the extension of the werewolf timer on pounce to the base skill.
One morph, to break all snares immobilizes and provide snare immunity for 4s, like all other stamina users this is a critical feature of melee builds, and having it as the pvp morph for this ability without sacrificing the timer issues makes a ton of sense.
The other morph should be pve focused, and in order to improve werewolves damage potential in pve without causing pvp issues, putting damage on the other morph makes a ton of sense. But instead of increasing burst, I think the other morph should become a dot to stack. So change it to a bleed that lasts 12s, and does comparable damage to twin slashes. Don't give it the gap closer reduction in damage calculation but rather the werewolf 25% increased damage/increased cost, making it one of the 'break the standard'. I don't think this would become a pvp issue due to the aforementioned other morph being so absolutely critical to sustainable play in pvp.
Hircine's -
The base should be turned into a hot, similar to dark cloak and the warden tank hot. This would slow down the healing burst without needing to nerf the heal quite as much.
One morph should compress the time it takes and make it more bursty in nature, but increase the cost so it can't be spammed back to back. Since this is the only magicka ability werewolves have, it should be easy to balance appropriate reuse of this.
The other morph should provide pve group benefit and remain the same heal over time for pve focus survival, similar to what vigor is supposed to do when its not overperforming. I think this is one potential to boost werewolves purpose: provide instead of major brutality, this should provide a unique group buff but it should not stack with other werewolves. I'm going to suggest this provides major or minor heroism to the group. This would have zero effect on the werewolf, would not increase the power of other werewolves in a pack, but it would improve all non werewolves significantly. They've removed heroism from a lot of other skills in the game so it would not be redundant. Balance around what ZoS feels is impactful but not such a broken necessity. This isn't exciting but its simple.
Roar -
For a while, this was a really significant value for pvp werewolves, but with the buffing of fear across the board to other classes, its fallen out of really strong uniqueness. It's still a very very strong CC and needs only a cost reduction to remain useful in pvp situations. CC is less critical in pve, and this is a wasted pve skill at the current moment, but its very close to being valuable.
Off balance is something raids want to achieve on bosses with its own mechanics and cooldowns. Giving werewolves a way for this skill to work on CC immune bosses would allow the werewolf to be the one maintaining this in trials, though not a complete neccessity as there are other ways to off balance uptime. Very simple fix there.
The other morph is redundant in pve, but would make more sense than off balance for pvp, and still continue to work for solo werewolf play.
Howl -
This skill remains one of the main reasons to bring a werewolf to pve, and one of the few skill based abilities in pvp. I really like both morphs and I think its fine as is. People underestimate the value of another synnergy going out, plus empower is relatively unique and strong and 5s of it to almost everyone every 20s is fairly strong. Between that and the heroism suggestion on hircines I can see this putting a werewolf as a useful person to bring along in trials. The other morph's skill around doing extra damage to feared targets is really good gameplay design.
Claws -
This skill is also good design, though its limited area and range and the lack of a real werewolf AoE in general limits werewolves ability somewhat. I was thinking that the current version should remain as is, with one tweak. The 'disease' aspect of the dot should be contagious. Not the extra effect of defile or healing done to the werewolf, but just the dot. Every tick of it should have a % chance of infecting or damaging nearby enemies. The more enemies in an area, the more damage done by the dot. Kind of like proximity detonation/innevitable detination. Where a swipe of claws from the werewolf will hit a cone of enemies with up front damage like cleave, and leave a disease dot, the ticks of additional dots will each do collateral damage and fix the werewolves pve lack of aoe damage for trash and give pvp werewolves something similar to proxy while still requiring them to be in the mix and able to be focused and killed.
Baseline changes -
I think the poison damage vulnerability is extremely punishing now on werewolves. It was always bad, but like the fire damage vulnerability of vampires just being out of hand and forcing players out of it for pvp this is just a little too much especially with poison being so readily available on bows. While I like the counter aspect, I think ZoS needs to re-evaluate the actual % this is doing now and how punishing it is. Something closer to minor vulnerability I think would be more appropriate in design.
I think that tenacity + werewolves baseline increased stamina return from heavy attacks is interesting gameplay. The aoe aspect of heavies while neat offers no actual damage benefit what-so-ever in aoe situations (its still always better to light attack, so heavies are literally only used for resource return). There's also that hidden feature of increasing the speed of your next light attacks after a heavy from old mechanics that while neat does not actually add interesting gameplay. If werewolves have higher cost skills, and have 'downtime' returning it while heavy attacking as a design feature that's fine for pvp but does not work around a sustainable rotation for pve. Werewolves have no resource return skills like the base classes all do, so heavies need to be considered in a rotation if werewolves are supposed to use their skills regularly in pve (and lower the floor and increase the ceiling of werewolf gameplay). I think there needs to be serious look at the heavy > increased light attack speed dynamic, so that there's some skill here. What I'd like to see is the aoe aspect to the werewolf heavy going away, and the animation being redesigned to look less dumb and work more smoothly, my proposal is it should become a bite attack, which takes 1.5-2s long, hits the same as a light attack, but speeds up the next five or six light attacks by 20%. This would mean weaving in heavies into a rotation, and planning around when you use that versus when you want to use abilities becomes more interesting. As a heavy > 5x lights with no abilities between then dumping would be interesting. Alternatively something like a 3s heavy > 3x lights at 50% speed would also be viable. These kind of things are easier ways for there to be more engaging werewolf gameplay and a higher skill cap. I don't think this is too much burst for pvp, since the heavy animation gives time for people to move out of range and telegraphs.
This would mean a good rotation could be something like:
Roar > LA >Pounce > LA > Claws > LA > Howl > HA > LAx6
This would still be super simplified versus a standard class, but still engage more interesting gameplay.
I've been thinking a lot about this after seeing the horrendous nerfs this patch and I'm really curious what others think about this kind of direction and solutions.
Luxe Khanna - AD, Rank 49 Argonian Magblade Healer
Crystala Khanna - AD, Rank 40 Khajiit Stamplar
Guilds: Fantasia, Dominant Dominion.3 -
FenrisWolf1136✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I am pretty sure that on Live server Dire Wolfs draw agro and can tank dmg, that normally would go to you. Maybe that is the case of a players in dungeons doing more dmg than pets, so it is less visible, but try to go solo to some easier dungeons like Fungal Grotto or Blackheart Haven, or even Maelstrom Arena and you will see that those pets actually CAN hold agro. This is the whole point of Pack Leader morph. It works similar to sorc's pets. Without pets being able to "tank" dmg this morph is pretty much dead in solo play (and without dmg it is dead everywhere else too).Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
You would be correct. They have been a nice help in vma at times getting to and holding some enemies at bay until i can deal with them myself. Its saved my hide on a few different occasions. Its going to be a bit more difficult now that they killed the morph entirely.Programmer of FenrisBot for discord.
The helper bot for ESO. Console Focused.
Check out https://norsewolfgames.com/fenrisbot for more information or to add it to your discord!2 -
jediodyn_ESO✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I am pretty sure that on Live server Dire Wolfs draw agro and can tank dmg, that normally would go to you. Maybe that is the case of a players in dungeons doing more dmg than pets, so it is less visible, but try to go solo to some easier dungeons like Fungal Grotto or Blackheart Haven, or even Maelstrom Arena and you will see that those pets actually CAN hold agro. This is the whole point of Pack Leader morph. It works similar to sorc's pets. Without pets being able to "tank" dmg this morph is pretty much dead in solo play (and without dmg it is dead everywhere else too).Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
Dires DO frequently aggro npcs and draw aggro in PvE content. No, they don't taunt, but they don't need to when a hard hitting npc decided to give you or your tank a few extra seconds of no damage & no cc by attacking a wolf instead. Its awesome to glimpse your pet eating a cc or a nasty dot as you pick up and burn the add.
You play Werewolf right? You should've already known this. Thanks for the 'enlightenment" but I've been here since beta and I understand the mechanics of this feature pretty well. I also would like to see it actually remain at least somewhat valid in either PvE, PvP, or preferably both. The current changes make WW worse than when it was a valid burst ultimate skill (pre-morrowind) and when it was a 'build for niche PvP' style (post Morrowind).
None of us here are asking for the return of the Torug's proc cheese and all the broken proc damage that bug caused. Most of us agree that the Zoo needed to not be a thing in PvP (not so much in PvE) but many of us are posting more than we have in years because we actually recognize how bad this patch is and are hoping that, just this once, the devs might listen.Edited by jediodyn_ESO on July 31, 2019 4:32PM0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I am pretty sure that on Live server Dire Wolfs draw agro and can tank dmg, that normally would go to you. Maybe that is the case of a players in dungeons doing more dmg than pets, so it is less visible, but try to go solo to some easier dungeons like Fungal Grotto or Blackheart Haven, or even Maelstrom Arena and you will see that those pets actually CAN hold agro. This is the whole point of Pack Leader morph. It works similar to sorc's pets. Without pets being able to "tank" dmg this morph is pretty much dead in solo play (and without dmg it is dead everywhere else too).Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
Notice how I state solo pve in the paragraph before hand?
Your pets stop working like that once around other groupmates. I could upload 2 hours of trial play with 8 pack leaders and 16 direwolf that never take a single hit or aggro off of a mob.
But since uploading video evidence is taboo, I will leave it in your court. Please show me a video of you in a dungeon or raid, with other players where the wolves draw aggro.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@SomniluxHowever, the high damage and burst potential of werewolves after getting buffed caused some issues in pvp. The only really large counter to werewolves was the extra damage poison vulnerability calculation overperforming and the psychological tendency for every single bow user to target a werewolf out of a group because of that known vulnerability, as well as the clear issues with how easy it is to CC werewolves that are supposed to be a mobile class.
Werewolf´s has lost damage almost every single patch since Summerset, not the other way around (a combination of bugs and indirect nerfs). So I´ve lowkey no idea where you get this idea from that werewolf has more damage potential than other specs.
And the main counter to werewolfs has never been poison damage (while I´m aware of the vulnerability calculations changed a while ago), but snares, roots, defiles and sustained pressure. Giving werewolf snare-immunity removes any healthy counterplay. Werewolfs should not get snare immunity in their toolkit.
Disagree slightly, werewolf´s heal should keep a bursty nature. The counter play to take down a werewolf should be through sustained pressure in my opinion. The only change the heal should get is to lower the potency. Otherwise it´s fine.Hircine's -
This is a myth and I´ve tested this myself. It´s a visual "glitch" that makes it look like your light attacks becomes faster after a heavy attack, but the actual speed isn´t different compared to spamming light attack without a heavy attack before.There's also that hidden feature of increasing the speed of your next light attacks after a heavy from old mechanics that while neat does not actually add interesting gameplay.
And regarding the rest of your suggestions about Baseline changes:
Werewolfs doesn´t need major overhauls, the major overhaul in Wolfhunter is what caused all this mess we´ve now. Small changes is what´s needed, not total reworks.
Otherwise I can see the idea with your other suggestions. Werewolf need more group utility, but at the same time it needs to be viable for solo play in PvP.Edited by Qbiken on July 31, 2019 4:40PM1 -
Somnilux✭✭✭Werewolf´s has lost damage almost every single patch since Summerset, not the other way around (a combination of bugs and indirect nerfs). So I´ve lowkey no idea where you get this idea from that werewolf has more damage potential than other specs. .
I've played Werewolf in pvp for a very long time. I'm specifically referring to the changes in the wolfhunter patch originally where while we lost some of the CC on pounce/howl, we gained quite a bit of survival and LA damage that increased our burst potential which was already high. That combined with some really bugged mechanics like the enchant issues and the overperforming heal meant there was legitimate criticism to werewolf overperforming. Those are what the subsequent nerfs were in response to and didn't fix the primary issues while hurting werewolves in pve.And the main counter to werewolfs has never been poison damage (while I´m aware of the vulnerability calculations changed a while ago), but snares, roots, defiles and sustained pressure. Giving werewolf snare-immunity removes any healthy counterplay. Werewolfs should not get snare immunity in their toolkit..
I did mention that was one of the counterplays to werewolves, and you already have access to people purging you in groups and immobilization potions like every other class. They don't overperform in group pvp and immobilization pots don't break werewolves so all evidence would say you are wrong. Adding a fundamental requirement of melee play in pvp to their toolkit isn't problematic.Disagree slightly, werewolf´s heal should keep a bursty nature. The counter play to take down a werewolf should be through sustained pressure in my opinion. The only change the heal should get is to lower the potency. Otherwise it´s fine.
I think it overperforms in pve in some places, and changing the pve morph to a hot is better for pve and would not affect the bursty nature of the pvp morph while differentiating them better.This is a myth and I´ve tested this myself. It´s a visual "glitch" that makes it look like your light attacks becomes faster after a heavy attack, but the actual speed isn´t different compared to spamming light attack without a heavy attack before.
I wouldn't say that is a myth then, I was not aware there was desync between, as its not really in any way gameplay increasing I didn't bother to test. Thanks for the clarification. That being said there is definitely a mechanic in game already to increase werewolf light attack speed through bloodmoon.And regarding the rest of your suggestions about Baseline changes:
Werewolfs doesn´t need major overhauls, the major overhaul in Wolfhunter is what caused all this mess we´ve now. Small changes is what´s needed, not total reworks.
Otherwise I can see the idea with your other suggestions. Werewolf need more group utility, but at the same time it needs to be viable for solo play in PvP.
From a pvp perspective, especially solo or BGs I can see, but have you tried to PvE at all? There are fundamental issues to werewolves that have been exacerbated by recent nerfs that came from a PvP focus that they went from 'okay' to 'bad' to 'unplayable' and this constant back and forth between trying to make them viable in pve and pvp means they really need to be looked at from a design perspective. Nothing I suggested is drastic except for the heavy attack changes.
Edited by Somnilux on July 31, 2019 5:21PMLuxe Khanna - AD, Rank 49 Argonian Magblade Healer
Crystala Khanna - AD, Rank 40 Khajiit Stamplar
Guilds: Fantasia, Dominant Dominion.1 -
Aznox✭✭✭✭✭* continues lurking *
* continues agreeing with the same old wolves *
* goes back to hibernation until next patch challenge, like an old predator hoping to finally meet a prey that would fight back hard enough to end his life and fatigue *Aznox
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FenrisWolf1136✭✭✭Werewolf´s has lost damage almost every single patch since Summerset, not the other way around (a combination of bugs and indirect nerfs). So I´ve lowkey no idea where you get this idea from that werewolf has more damage potential than other specs. .
I've played Werewolf in pvp for a very long time. I'm specifically referring to the changes in the wolfhunter patch originally where while we lost some of the CC on pounce/howl, we gained quite a bit of survival and LA damage that increased our burst potential which was already high. That combined with some really bugged mechanics like the enchant issues and the overperforming heal meant there was legitimate criticism to werewolf overperforming. Those are what the subsequent nerfs were in response to and didn't fix the primary issues while hurting werewolves in pve.And the main counter to werewolfs has never been poison damage (while I´m aware of the vulnerability calculations changed a while ago), but snares, roots, defiles and sustained pressure. Giving werewolf snare-immunity removes any healthy counterplay. Werewolfs should not get snare immunity in their toolkit..
I did mention that was one of the counterplays to werewolves, and you already have access to people purging you in groups and immobilization potions like every other class. They don't overperform in group pvp and immobilization pots don't break werewolves so all evidence would say you are wrong. Adding a fundamental requirement of melee play in pvp to their toolkit isn't problematic.Disagree slightly, werewolf´s heal should keep a bursty nature. The counter play to take down a werewolf should be through sustained pressure in my opinion. The only change the heal should get is to lower the potency. Otherwise it´s fine.
I think it overperforms in pve in some places, and changing the pve morph to a hot is better for pve and would not affect the bursty nature of the pvp morph while differentiating them better.This is a myth and I´ve tested this myself. It´s a visual "glitch" that makes it look like your light attacks becomes faster after a heavy attack, but the actual speed isn´t different compared to spamming light attack without a heavy attack before.
I wouldn't say that is a myth then, I was not aware there was desync between, as its not really in any way gameplay increasing I didn't bother to test. Thanks for the clarification. That being said there is definitely a mechanic in game already to increase werewolf light attack speed through bloodmoon.And regarding the rest of your suggestions about Baseline changes:
Werewolfs doesn´t need major overhauls, the major overhaul in Wolfhunter is what caused all this mess we´ve now. Small changes is what´s needed, not total reworks.
Otherwise I can see the idea with your other suggestions. Werewolf need more group utility, but at the same time it needs to be viable for solo play in PvP.
From a pvp perspective, especially solo or BGs I can see, but have you tried to PvE at all? There are fundamental issues to werewolves that have been exacerbated by recent nerfs that came from a PvP focus that they went from 'okay' to 'bad' to 'unplayable' and this constant back and forth between trying to make them viable in pve and pvp means they really need to be looked at from a design perspective. Nothing I suggested is drastic except for the heavy attack changes.
They would save everyone the massive headache by just separately balancing pve and pvp. If they can't find a happy balance with a werewolf, literally limited to 5 skills and the ult morph, how do they expect to find a happy balance with a normal class with a larger toolkit?
When in battlegrounds, cyrodiil, ics, etc., change the stats on gear and skills. Would that take a good bit of work to do and a good bit of restructuring to fit in the game? yeah, quite likely. That would be a slow and daunting task at first, but it would be well worth it in the long run. Plus it ends the whole arguement as to this was done for pve... or this was done for pvp that pops up all the time.Edited by FenrisWolf1136 on July 31, 2019 9:27PMProgrammer of FenrisBot for discord.
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Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I am pretty sure that on Live server Dire Wolfs draw agro and can tank dmg, that normally would go to you. Maybe that is the case of a players in dungeons doing more dmg than pets, so it is less visible, but try to go solo to some easier dungeons like Fungal Grotto or Blackheart Haven, or even Maelstrom Arena and you will see that those pets actually CAN hold agro. This is the whole point of Pack Leader morph. It works similar to sorc's pets. Without pets being able to "tank" dmg this morph is pretty much dead in solo play (and without dmg it is dead everywhere else too).Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
Notice how I state solo pve in the paragraph before hand?
Your pets stop working like that once around other groupmates. I could upload 2 hours of trial play with 8 pack leaders and 16 direwolf that never take a single hit or aggro off of a mob.
But since uploading video evidence is taboo, I will leave it in your court. Please show me a video of you in a dungeon or raid, with other players where the wolves draw aggro.
@jediodyn_ESO @FenrisWolf1136 @Tommy_The_Gun
Imma just leave this here then...
https://youtu.be/t2eFbmHW46A Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I am pretty sure that on Live server Dire Wolfs draw agro and can tank dmg, that normally would go to you. Maybe that is the case of a players in dungeons doing more dmg than pets, so it is less visible, but try to go solo to some easier dungeons like Fungal Grotto or Blackheart Haven, or even Maelstrom Arena and you will see that those pets actually CAN hold agro. This is the whole point of Pack Leader morph. It works similar to sorc's pets. Without pets being able to "tank" dmg this morph is pretty much dead in solo play (and without dmg it is dead everywhere else too).Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
Notice how I state solo pve in the paragraph before hand?
Your pets stop working like that once around other groupmates. I could upload 2 hours of trial play with 8 pack leaders and 16 direwolf that never take a single hit or aggro off of a mob.
But since uploading video evidence is taboo, I will leave it in your court. Please show me a video of you in a dungeon or raid, with other players where the wolves draw aggro.
@jediodyn_ESO @FenrisWolf1136 @Tommy_The_Gun
Imma just leave this here then...https://youtu.be/t2eFbmHW46A
Let me help breakdown how the direwolves work on live.
Showcased in my video (Live Server);
Overland solo play: Mobs will react to, interact with and actually get the taunted debuff from the dire wolves.
Group content (dungeon/raid): As of Murkmire, Zos changed how combat pets interacted with mobs, the combat pets don't get targeted or draw aggro from mobs or bosses. From the video you will see the NPCs have no concern for the direwolves even when being eaten alive by them.
@jediodyn_ESO @FenrisWolf1136 @Tommy_The_Gun
The experiences that you had with the direwolves taking damage, pulling mob aggro from yourself and groupmates in dungeons or raids, were indeed real but happened before, and not since the Murkmire patch.
Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA4 -
jediodyn_ESO✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I am pretty sure that on Live server Dire Wolfs draw agro and can tank dmg, that normally would go to you. Maybe that is the case of a players in dungeons doing more dmg than pets, so it is less visible, but try to go solo to some easier dungeons like Fungal Grotto or Blackheart Haven, or even Maelstrom Arena and you will see that those pets actually CAN hold agro. This is the whole point of Pack Leader morph. It works similar to sorc's pets. Without pets being able to "tank" dmg this morph is pretty much dead in solo play (and without dmg it is dead everywhere else too).Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
Notice how I state solo pve in the paragraph before hand?
Your pets stop working like that once around other groupmates. I could upload 2 hours of trial play with 8 pack leaders and 16 direwolf that never take a single hit or aggro off of a mob.
But since uploading video evidence is taboo, I will leave it in your court. Please show me a video of you in a dungeon or raid, with other players where the wolves draw aggro.
@jediodyn_ESO @FenrisWolf1136 @Tommy_The_Gun
Imma just leave this here then...https://youtu.be/t2eFbmHW46A
Let me help breakdown how the direwolves work on live.
Showcased in my video (Live Server);
Overland solo play: Mobs will react to, interact with and actually get the taunted debuff from the dire wolves.
Group content (dungeon/raid): As of Murkmire, Zos changed how combat pets interacted with mobs, the combat pets don't get targeted or draw aggro from mobs or bosses. From the video you will see the NPCs have no concern for the direwolves even when being eaten alive by them.
@jediodyn_ESO @FenrisWolf1136 @Tommy_The_Gun
The experiences that you had with the direwolves taking damage, pulling mob aggro from yourself and groupmates in dungeons or raids, were indeed real but happened before, and not since the Murkmire patch.
First, great video. You've supported your point that is some PvE situations the pets no longer pull or hold aggro. We've clearly had a misunderstanding. That being said, I'm not here to argue with you, or to compare the amount of fur on our Werewolf nuts. I'm here to try help advise ZOS from making changes that will result in almost every even somewhat competitive endgame player (PvE or PvP) being forced into removing WW from their skill bars for the next patch cycle or even longer.
In the current state of the game, Werewolves are already persona non grata in raids. In endgame PvP on live, the berserker werewolf is weaker than any other humanoid stamina build. These changes will make berserker not viable in PvP, and (for the reasons mentioned here multiple times) will completely destroy the pack-leader morph in both PvP and PvE.
The current state of the changes to werewolves on PTS is NOT OK!
Nothing in the 4 weeks of testing and 9 pages of testing comments we've left here has changed the value or accuracy of the feedback and suggestions we provided from testing week #1!
ZoS, please listen to us, or at least respond to us. Inviting the community to help test but then providing a total lack of feedback is why so many players come to the PTS server with the sole purpose of finding exploits to abuse at live. Please show a little attention to the werewolf community who have legitimately come to try and help you create a better product.4 -
FenrisWolf1136✭✭✭__Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
I am pretty sure that on Live server Dire Wolfs draw agro and can tank dmg, that normally would go to you. Maybe that is the case of a players in dungeons doing more dmg than pets, so it is less visible, but try to go solo to some easier dungeons like Fungal Grotto or Blackheart Haven, or even Maelstrom Arena and you will see that those pets actually CAN hold agro. This is the whole point of Pack Leader morph. It works similar to sorc's pets. Without pets being able to "tank" dmg this morph is pretty much dead in solo play (and without dmg it is dead everywhere else too).Dires along with all perminant pet summons in the game can not draw agro in instances meaning that they take no extra damage for the group.
Notice how I state solo pve in the paragraph before hand?
Your pets stop working like that once around other groupmates. I could upload 2 hours of trial play with 8 pack leaders and 16 direwolf that never take a single hit or aggro off of a mob.
But since uploading video evidence is taboo, I will leave it in your court. Please show me a video of you in a dungeon or raid, with other players where the wolves draw aggro.
@jediodyn_ESO @FenrisWolf1136 @Tommy_The_Gun
Imma just leave this here then...https://youtu.be/t2eFbmHW46A
Let me help breakdown how the direwolves work on live.
Showcased in my video (Live Server);
Overland solo play: Mobs will react to, interact with and actually get the taunted debuff from the dire wolves.
Group content (dungeon/raid): As of Murkmire, Zos changed how combat pets interacted with mobs, the combat pets don't get targeted or draw aggro from mobs or bosses. From the video you will see the NPCs have no concern for the direwolves even when being eaten alive by them.
@jediodyn_ESO @FenrisWolf1136 @Tommy_The_Gun
The experiences that you had with the direwolves taking damage, pulling mob aggro from yourself and groupmates in dungeons or raids, were indeed real but happened before, and not since the Murkmire patch.
Not sure why I'm tagged, but thanks for the video. I'm aware of where the dire wolves can and cannot hold aggro lol. In the statement i made above i was talking vMA specifically. So sorry for the long video, but its a full run that shares a multitude of times where the wolves hold an enemy and even kill it at times before i have the chance to deal with it myself. I will also reiterate that this has saved me before when I've been low on health and that the nerfs to pack leader will make this more challenging. Their damage will be missed for when they would track down and kill the venomcallers especially. Hate the poison round!
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