[Werewolf Scalebreaker feedback] - "Why most of the changes are unjustified and needs tweaking"

Chrlynsch

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

perditioner wrote: »

Can you record a parse please @Chrlynsch? Be useful to see your rotation. What sets and cp and poisons are you using?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6232977/#Comment_6232977

I did one for my werewolf guild the other day and posted in this thread, superstar at the beginning, metrics report at the end.

Presh that. You have CP? All LA spam or some skills mixed in?

Huh?

Wuuffyy

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.[/quote

JusticeSouldier

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.[/quote

and, in addition, big dragon tail at the back to jump like a kangaroo, and hug more werewolf females when close.
hell guys, wtf?
it's werewolf, to write such things is like to ask bike be spaceship and a spaghetti.

Chrlynsch

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.[/quote

and, in addition, big dragon tail at the back to jump like a kangaroo, and hug more werewolf females when close.
hell guys, wtf?
it's werewolf, to write such things is like to ask bike be spaceship and a spaghetti.

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

Wuuffyy

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Sounds good to me. Should have heavy reduced cost for block. Taunt on heavy for 15 secs. And a buff to increased time for other werewolves in your group by an extra 5% up to 20% for 4 WWs (including yourself). Would make it useful. Also change tormenter set to work for all gap closers.[/quote

and, in addition, big dragon tail at the back to jump like a kangaroo, and hug more werewolf females when close.
hell guys, wtf?
it's werewolf, to write such things is like to ask bike be spaceship and a spaghetti.

Well dude. By your logic packleader shouldnt have a bleed and should be for snares and minor maim. Lol wut a dumb comment. I dont want a tank wolf but if thats what they want then it might as well be made useful. Currently no one will use it.

JusticeSouldier

My logic is very simple - if they made pack leader morf like somehow looking like "tanky", than we should ask them to make it Werewolf back, not more "tank".
And when u ask something like, think also how it will be in all content types, not only in one, in which your imagination has drawn it recently.
Hell, it's ridiculous, werewolf design in general moves last few years in so bad direction that i almost lost hope to enjoy it like it was in Skyrim.
And a big part of that - such ideas based on wrong from the start basement.
Werewolf is not a tank!

wtf really?

Wuuffyy

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

My logic is very simple - if they made pack leader morf like somehow looking like "tanky", than we should ask them to make it Werewolf back, not more "tank".
And when u ask something like, think also how it will be in all content types, not only in one, in which your imagination has drawn it recently.
Hell, it's ridiculous, werewolf design in general moves last few years in so bad direction that i almost lost hope to enjoy it like it was in Skyrim.
And a big part of that - such ideas based on wrong from the start basement.
Werewolf is not a tank!

wtf really?

Right its not a tank. And apparently we aren't allowed to be damage dealers anywhere near remotely efficient either. And in pvp we are forces to be hybrid ish builds for even sub standard combat results. Therefore. Not much is left to do with Packleader so hence even the idea.

I do not want it that way but I also don't want that more to be useful for years either.

Tommy_The_Gun

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Werewolf is not a tank!

I just wanted to point out that Destro Frost Staff was not a supposed to be a gear for tanks, but well... it is now...

perditioner

Thanks @Chrlynsch, with your rotation and 2h I can get my dps up a few more thousand.

Chrlynsch

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Werewolf is not a tank!

I just wanted to point out that Destro Frost Staff was not a supposed to be a gear for tanks, but well... it is now...

Correct me if I am wrong ( @ZOS_GinaBruno ) but ZOS had said that their vision for werewolf does not include tanking. I'm afraid that trying to make werewolf into too many different things would just overcomplicate their identity, and leave them unequipped to fill the role of the tank.

Tanks use ice staffs as a tool combined with many other tools to help them tank effectively.

Chrlynsch

perditioner wrote: »

Thanks @Chrlynsch, with your rotation and 2h I can get my dps up a few more thousand.

Here are some tips not listed in the video.

1. If you are on PC, bind your mouse wheel up and down to light attacks.

2. Do not do anything other than light attacks while Bloodmoon is procced.

3. Keep Kena proc up as much as possible.

4. Keep Claws of life up as much as possible.

5. Keep bleed proc up as much as possible (if you are going to heavy attack do so right after you have reapplied the bleed dot)

6. Try to sync up the off balance proc and Bloodmoon proc the best that you can. If you are not synced utilize heavy attack/howl weaves during this time to get your stam pool back up. (Dont let claws of life die or your bleed).

7. Weaving howls should be done while dots are up, Kena is procced and Bloodmoon is on cooldown (not when build stacks or procced).

Let me know if you have any issues or questions.

Wuuffyy

Chrlynsch wrote: »

perditioner wrote: »

Thanks @Chrlynsch, with your rotation and 2h I can get my dps up a few more thousand.

Here are some tips not listed in the video.

1. If you are on PC, bind your mouse wheel up and down to light attacks.

2. Do not do anything other than light attacks while Bloodmoon is procced.

3. Keep Kena proc up as much as possible.

4. Keep Claws of life up as much as possible.

5. Keep bleed proc up as much as possible (if you are going to heavy attack do so right after you have reapplied the bleed dot)

6. Try to sync up the off balance proc and Bloodmoon proc the best that you can. If you are not synced utilize heavy attack/howl weaves during this time to get your stam pool back up. (Dont let claws of life die or your bleed).

7. Weaving howls should be done while dots are up, Kena is procced and Bloodmoon is on cooldown (not when build stacks or procced).

Let me know if you have any issues or questions.

Basic rotation then. Wats ur CP.

JusticeSouldier

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Werewolf is not a tank!

I just wanted to point out that Destro Frost Staff was not a supposed to be a gear for tanks, but well... it is now...

And I never liked that idea and that's a topic for another thread.

But, here we talking about werewolfes, and here question - why to ask bad idea become bigger, than to ask replace that idea with another one.
I've got one few minuts ago - to give pack leader special attack.
With ultimates generation while in form to be used for that.
Slightly similar to warden's bear.
And here they can add buffs or debuffs, which will have value to be desireable instead bonuses of Berserker morf and will not rely on "ghost" or not wolfs without reliable control and annoying at the same time...
It can have look even of ghost wolf(s) coming and doing instant attack than dissapearing...

And, one more time, i want werewolf be less tanky in general, maybe with more health, health recovery, vitality instead, but without that resists bonus.

@ZOS_Gilliam can combat design team like such way?

Qbiken

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Werewolf is not a tank!

I just wanted to point out that Destro Frost Staff was not a supposed to be a gear for tanks, but well... it is now...

And I never liked that idea and that's a topic for another thread.

But, here we talking about werewolfes, and here question - why to ask bad idea become bigger, than to ask replace that idea with another one.
I've got one few minuts ago - to give pack leader special attack.
With ultimates generation while in form to be used for that.
Slightly similar to warden's bear.
And here they can add buffs or debuffs, which will have value to be desireable instead bonuses of Berserker morf and will not rely on "ghost" or not wolfs without reliable control and annoying at the same time...
It can have look even of ghost wolf(s) coming and doing instant attack than dissapearing...

And, one more time, i want werewolf be less tanky in general, maybe with more health, health recovery, vitality instead, but without that resists bonus.

@ZOS_Gilliam can combat design team like such way?

I´ve a challenge for you, remove the 2 skillpoints from Savage Strenght from your werewolf, do a PvP session against players that are somewhat decent (extra + if you´re outnumbered) and let me know how things went......

JusticeSouldier

Qbiken wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Werewolf is not a tank!

I just wanted to point out that Destro Frost Staff was not a supposed to be a gear for tanks, but well... it is now...

And I never liked that idea and that's a topic for another thread.

But, here we talking about werewolfes, and here question - why to ask bad idea become bigger, than to ask replace that idea with another one.
I've got one few minuts ago - to give pack leader special attack.
With ultimates generation while in form to be used for that.
Slightly similar to warden's bear.
And here they can add buffs or debuffs, which will have value to be desireable instead bonuses of Berserker morf and will not rely on "ghost" or not wolfs without reliable control and annoying at the same time...
It can have look even of ghost wolf(s) coming and doing instant attack than dissapearing...

And, one more time, i want werewolf be less tanky in general, maybe with more health, health recovery, vitality instead, but without that resists bonus.

@ZOS_Gilliam can combat design team like such way?

I´ve a challenge for you, remove the 2 skillpoints from Savage Strenght from your werewolf, do a PvP session against players that are somewhat decent (extra + if you´re outnumbered) and let me know how things went......

I've a challenge for u, how do u feel better:
1. u have 2 apples. we take 1 from u and giving u pineapple instead
2. u have 2 apples. we take 1 from u and give u nothing instead... (thats what u trying to refer with to me now)
wtf mate? what u tryed to say here?

Chrlynsch

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Werewolf is not a tank!

I just wanted to point out that Destro Frost Staff was not a supposed to be a gear for tanks, but well... it is now...

And I never liked that idea and that's a topic for another thread.

But, here we talking about werewolfes, and here question - why to ask bad idea become bigger, than to ask replace that idea with another one.
I've got one few minuts ago - to give pack leader special attack.
With ultimates generation while in form to be used for that.
Slightly similar to warden's bear.
And here they can add buffs or debuffs, which will have value to be desireable instead bonuses of Berserker morf and will not rely on "ghost" or not wolfs without reliable control and annoying at the same time...
It can have look even of ghost wolf(s) coming and doing instant attack than dissapearing...

And, one more time, i want werewolf be less tanky in general, maybe with more health, health recovery, vitality instead, but without that resists bonus.

@ZOS_Gilliam can combat design team like such way?

I´ve a challenge for you, remove the 2 skillpoints from Savage Strenght from your werewolf, do a PvP session against players that are somewhat decent (extra + if you´re outnumbered) and let me know how things went......

I've a challenge for u, how do u feel better:
1. u have 2 apples. we take 1 from u and giving u pineapple instead
2. u have 2 apples. we take 1 from u and give u nothing instead... (thats what u trying to refer with to me now)
wtf mate? what u tryed to say here?

Please try to stay on topic.

Tommy_The_Gun

Well... I guess we lost...
No WW changes in this round of PTS. Pack Leader remains Dead...

Qbiken

.https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/487154/pts-patch-notes-v5-1-3#latest

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Gilliam
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Is it intentional to ignore feedback regarding werewolf for an entire PTS cycle or what´s the deal about this?

FenrisWolf1136

Qbiken wrote: »

.https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/487154/pts-patch-notes-v5-1-3#latest

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Gilliam
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Is it intentional to ignore feedback regarding werewolf for an entire PTS cycle or what´s the deal about this?

Not really surprising. Will have to wait a few patches before we see any changes and see where the overall direction of these changes are headed. In the meantime, it'll be nice to take a break and come back to see how things look in a few patches. See what the game is like when some of those performance changes are in place and their standardizing abilities is worked out. Will be interesting to see where everything lands.

Excelsus

Don't worry, next patch theyll have an entirely different design goal for the game that might include viable werewolf dps.

Tommy_The_Gun

Excelsus wrote: »

Don't worry, next patch theyll have an entirely different design goal for the game that might include viable werewolf dps.

Being brutally honest here, WW DPS is what killed it.
- PvP-ers were screaming that it is OP in below level 50 BGs in a pre-made group.
- PvE-ers were screaming that it is "brain dead", it does not deserve ANY DPS.

Thus, WW was killed. Everywhere. Even in solo play.

Haink

Can we all start a WW support group to provide hugs and comfort in this time of worry?

Dashmatt

It’s clear from each PTS patch that they are actively listening to feedback on many things. I don’t get why Werewolf has had absolute silence, despite getting quite a few changes - which are more impactful than any of my other characters are experiencing.

Just say you think you did a good job and Werewolves are perfect now, if that’s what you think...

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO

Dashmatt wrote: »

It’s clear from each PTS patch that they are actively listening to feedback on many things. I don’t get why Werewolf has had absolute silence, despite getting quite a few changes - which are more impactful than any of my other characters are experiencing.

Just say you think you did a good job and Werewolves are perfect now, if that’s what you think...

Doesn’t help you get some werewolves defending the state of wws on pts...

Posting parses and countering complaints made by other players is kind of a stupid thing to do.. but then again these guys are pvers and they have no idea how *** wws are going to be in pvp

JusticeSouldier

Chrlynsch wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

JusticeSouldier wrote: »

Werewolf is not a tank!

I just wanted to point out that Destro Frost Staff was not a supposed to be a gear for tanks, but well... it is now...

And I never liked that idea and that's a topic for another thread.

But, here we talking about werewolfes, and here question - why to ask bad idea become bigger, than to ask replace that idea with another one.
I've got one few minuts ago - to give pack leader special attack.
With ultimates generation while in form to be used for that.
Slightly similar to warden's bear.
And here they can add buffs or debuffs, which will have value to be desireable instead bonuses of Berserker morf and will not rely on "ghost" or not wolfs without reliable control and annoying at the same time...
It can have look even of ghost wolf(s) coming and doing instant attack than dissapearing...

And, one more time, i want werewolf be less tanky in general, maybe with more health, health recovery, vitality instead, but without that resists bonus.

@ZOS_Gilliam can combat design team like such way?

I´ve a challenge for you, remove the 2 skillpoints from Savage Strenght from your werewolf, do a PvP session against players that are somewhat decent (extra + if you´re outnumbered) and let me know how things went......

I've a challenge for u, how do u feel better:
1. u have 2 apples. we take 1 from u and giving u pineapple instead
2. u have 2 apples. we take 1 from u and give u nothing instead... (thats what u trying to refer with to me now)
wtf mate? what u tryed to say here?

Please try to stay on topic.

it's metaphor for Qbiken to understand that he's "offer" is irrelevant.
Current passives have it's value.
It's not a good thing to just remove something and not getting something instead as he asked me.
if we want balance ofc.

Chrlynsch

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO wrote: »

Dashmatt wrote: »

It’s clear from each PTS patch that they are actively listening to feedback on many things. I don’t get why Werewolf has had absolute silence, despite getting quite a few changes - which are more impactful than any of my other characters are experiencing.

Just say you think you did a good job and Werewolves are perfect now, if that’s what you think...

Doesn’t help you get some werewolves defending the state of wws on pts...

Posting parses and countering complaints made by other players is kind of a stupid thing to do.. but then again these guys are pvers and they have no idea how *** wws are going to be in pvp

Holy smokes am I a pve'r now?!

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO

Chrlynsch wrote: »

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO wrote: »

Dashmatt wrote: »

It’s clear from each PTS patch that they are actively listening to feedback on many things. I don’t get why Werewolf has had absolute silence, despite getting quite a few changes - which are more impactful than any of my other characters are experiencing.

Just say you think you did a good job and Werewolves are perfect now, if that’s what you think...

Doesn’t help you get some werewolves defending the state of wws on pts...

Posting parses and countering complaints made by other players is kind of a stupid thing to do.. but then again these guys are pvers and they have no idea how *** wws are going to be in pvp

Holy smokes am I a pve'r now?!

You seem like one tbh

Chrlynsch

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

liningtonsweldingb16_ESO wrote: »

Dashmatt wrote: »

It’s clear from each PTS patch that they are actively listening to feedback on many things. I don’t get why Werewolf has had absolute silence, despite getting quite a few changes - which are more impactful than any of my other characters are experiencing.

Just say you think you did a good job and Werewolves are perfect now, if that’s what you think...

Doesn’t help you get some werewolves defending the state of wws on pts...

Posting parses and countering complaints made by other players is kind of a stupid thing to do.. but then again these guys are pvers and they have no idea how *** wws are going to be in pvp

Holy smokes am I a pve'r now?!

You seem like one tbh

I could tell that many of the complaints came from those who hadn't actually tested the changes, and that others still had room to adapt to the changes.

What doesn't do any of us any good is jumping to conclusions, be it about changes to the game, or about their fellow player's expertise.

Wuuffyy

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

Don't worry, next patch theyll have an entirely different design goal for the game that might include viable werewolf dps.

Being brutally honest here, WW DPS is what killed it.
- PvP-ers were screaming that it is OP in below level 50 BGs in a pre-made group.
- PvE-ers were screaming that it is "brain dead", it does not deserve ANY DPS.

Thus, WW was killed. Everywhere. Even in solo play.

Just insanity. Borderline makes me not want to play as they still have updates upcoming for passives (stam sorc and werewolf keep this up to still under good dps so a heavy loss) and then sets.

Qbiken

Dashmatt wrote: »

It’s clear from each PTS patch that they are actively listening to feedback on many things. I don’t get why Werewolf has had absolute silence, despite getting quite a few changes - which are more impactful than any of my other characters are experiencing.

Just say you think you did a good job and Werewolves are perfect now, if that’s what you think...

This is what bothers me the most. If ZOS would´ve ignored feedback regarding other topics as well, it would´ve made more sense. But just take a look throughout the PTS cycle regarding what got changed (will name a few):

* Onslaught: Got changed after people voiced complains about how it gave too much offensive Powers

* Healing ward: Got changed 2-3 times already, after people voiced complains about it.

* Vigor: Will apparently get changed since it gives too much healing according to ZOS. If we compare PTS vigor to PTS Hircine´s Bounty, vigor gives more than twice the HPS compared to the WW-heal.

I find it ridicilous how ZOS can ignore werewolf for an entire patch when making changes that will have a huge impact on certain aspect of the werewolf playstyle.

Regarding @Chrlynsch "defending" the werewolf changes:
- He´s shown numerous times that you can get around the changes from a PvE perspective, simply by swapping to the berserker morph. If the important thing for someone is to use werewolf in PvE and feel somewhat competitive, you won´t mind changing in my opinion. He´s probably one of the most knowledgeable werewolf player in this game and if a "werewolf class-rep" existed, Chrlynsch would be the right person for it.


In my opinion there´re 2 pain points that needs to be addressed before Scalebreaker goes live:

1. The werewolf heal needs to either:
a) Get rid of its increased cost (reducing it´s healing potency however is fine) <--- Preferred choice.
b) Get reworked to scale of max stamina and weapon damage and work as vigor (Roar gets reworked and costs magicka)

2. Buff the utility of Pack-Leader:
If Pack-Leader is supposed to bring utility to a group it needs to be something significantly better than minor maim and a snare. In PvE you´ve no use of these things and in PvP it´s not worth trading these two things for the extra damage Berserker gives you. Pack-Leader needs to either offer a unique buff/debuff that can´t be found anywhere else or bring powerful enough buffs so that they´re an asset to the group, and not a burden.

@JusticeSouldier
My point was that your suggestions about trading the extra resistance for more HP, HP-regen or vitality, would be like trading an in-game tempering alloy for a lockpick. While I do agree that werewolf should be more about it´s offensive/aggressive nature, it needs survivability. The extra resistance is more or less a necessity for any competitive PvP as a werewolf. If I remember correctly there was a bug before Murkmire where the extra resistance from Savage Strenght didn´t apply, and it was absolutely awful to play as a werewolf back then before it got hot-fixed.

Now what would a "fair-trade" look like? In my opinion something like this:

* Instead of 10k extra spell- & physical resistance, they now only get 5k spell- & physical resistance. In return, werewolfs now have access to weapon passives and can gain ultimate while in werewolf form (but at a 50% slower rate than outside of werewolf form).


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam
Please reconsider these changes. At least leave some kind of response/feedback to why werewolf isn´t recieving any updates during this PTS cycle. Werewolfs doesn´t feel anywhere near the "25% more powerful" as stated in the original update.