Vigor is too OP

jcm2606 · July 2019

Idinuse wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »

It is not OP. Not at all. Stop the nerf threads.

Stop the nerf threads as long as it's about Stamina?

If you want magicka to be good, suggest buffs for magicka. Stop trying to get stamina nerfed. Sick of the "my playstyle was nerfed, they should nerf your's too!" whiners who throw a temper tantrum every *** update, putting us back into the *** spot of playing darts with the reward being what's gonna get gutted next. You want the game to be enjoyable? Stop asking for nerfs.

And that pretty much confirms it. After the Templar, Sorc and all about mag nerfs hysteria for months, ney years, you people have the nerve.

I may have my own balance grievances, but I don't go looking to gut an entire half of the game's specs because my playstyle, class or spec got nerfed. Don't be so petty as to make everybody's experiences as *** as your own, suggest buffs for your own playstyle. The game's had enough nerfs.

Oh, and that's coming from someone who predominantly plays magicka DK and Sorc in PVP. So yeah, before you come back insinuating I'm biased towards stamina, no, I'm not. I just don't throw hissy fits on the forums demand everybody be nerfed into oblivion because I got nerfed.

Neither do I. The hundreds of whiners over mag-anything have though. And when it creates a glaring imbalance, especially with a stamina buff, the nerfing needs to stop? Just lol.

Because constant nerfs are what's gotten us to this point, to the point where the combat team has had to say "*** it" and do a skill audit, just to undo years of *** balancing. We've been on this merry-go-round for years, now is time for us to hop off, and to do that we need to stop constantly asking for nerfs, and instead ask for buffs and reworks.

Let me ask you this. If you think magicka is truly as bad as you say, why would you wish that upon stamina? Why not instead ask for magicka to be elevated up to the level of stamina, so everyone's on an even playing field in a game that's actually enjoyable to play? Break the wheel, don't become another spoke.

Saril_Durzam · July 2019

The real issue of this feeling about Vigor is that it got buffed the same patch magicka healing got nerfed, some magicka playstile got nerfed, some magicka class got nerfed, and now we find that stamina classes jeep topping DPS charts while now they have better self-heals, better survability than magicka and better sustain. Its not an issue of class balance, is that right now DD stamina is better than magicka in every aspect of the game. Including range, as bows are as good as diestro staffs.

There is not a single reason to play a magicka DD if you have a stamina DD. The only magicka DD close to stamina were sorcs but they get heavy nerfed this patch on selfheals and survability.

If the players who play DD stamina cant under stand the changes and the state of the game, and the rage this means for the players who play magicka DD, then its just the bias.

Personally this patch will give me a new challenge which will be to play my healer effectively and useful to a trial or dlc dungeon party, and many reasons to make my stamden and stamcro my main DDs, and leave my magsorc in the closet after so much gameplay. Not thinking about leaving the game, yet. Take it as a new beginning. And dont worry, one day things will change, developers responsable wont be stamina, and we will see more balance or even magicka being better on anything than stamina and many stamina players rage.

Deathlord92 · July 2019

As I said on the healing ward op thread good healing ward and vigor should be strong I hate nerfs.

Wuuffyy · July 2019

Lol when you put on a ridiculous build and act like 4k a sec in pvp is a lot or post a cut pic of a crit tic in pve.

master_vanargand · July 2019

Aznarb wrote: »

Vigor in self buff alcast pve DPS build :

Also, their is NO cp put in blessing + if you take the selfish morph you get these heal each 0.5sec.
Also, look at the cost, 1950 stam only ? Really ?

Again sorry for the french tooltip, but you got it I think.
Also I'm just gonna ignore the "no-cp guy", no time to wast speaking to him.

Your Stamina Recovery is trash.

leepalmer95 · July 2019

Got to love these threads, false info, boosted tooltips to show how OP the screenshot is. etc...

If you are going to make a point make sure its true otherwise it gets ignored.

charley222 · July 2019

this make any sense stamina are allow to throw aoe heal and have so much strong heal make healer class useless

stamina build suppose to be about leeching

Wuuffyy · July 2019

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Got to love these threads, false info, boosted tooltips to show how OP the screenshot is. etc...

If you are going to make a point make sure its true otherwise it gets ignored.

Yep.

leepalmer95 · July 2019

charley222 wrote: »

this make any sense stamina are allow to throw aoe heal and have so much strong heal make healer class useless

stamina build suppose to be about leeching

What are you on about.

Aznarb · July 2019

master_vanargand wrote:

Your Stamina Recovery is trash.

Tell that to Alcast, I didn't make the build, I use it to try the heal in a true meta dps set-up.

Edit : here is the build I've use, I'm not a dps player so I've take a build from someone who is know as being good :
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-dragonknight-build-pve/
Feel free to /w him so you can give him your advise directly.

iCaliban · July 2019

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Got to love these threads, false info, boosted tooltips to show how OP the screenshot is. etc...

If you are going to make a point make sure its true otherwise it gets ignored.

Just like people were doing with the healing ward page....

Iskiab · July 2019

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Few important details.

Resolving vigor did not get buffed 85%, base vigor did. Resolving does not heal the caster 30% more like it does on live because it only affects the caster. On *my* build it's a rough 40% buff (maybe a shade over).

Echoing vigor got nerfed and buffed. It got nerfed in its healing value (ticks half as often, and only 85% increase) and got buffed in utility (cast half as often for less stamina).

Vigor as a skill got nerfed for organized small groups, as you can no longer stack three vigor types like you can on live. At best, you can stack two and they won't tick every second.

I'mnot here to discuss op or not, just clearing a lot of the myths and rumors from people who haven't tested or have an agenda.

Have a wonderful day!

Are you sure about that? I’ve heard a lot of conflicting information on this. I’ve heard one of each kind of vigor, I’ve heard two of each kind of vigor and I’ve heard an infinite amount of vigors stack.

I can’t test that myself solo, have you been on PTS to test and can confirm only two echoing vigors can stack?

John_Falstaff · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Few important details.

Resolving vigor did not get buffed 85%, base vigor did. Resolving does not heal the caster 30% more like it does on live because it only affects the caster. On *my* build it's a rough 40% buff (maybe a shade over).

Echoing vigor got nerfed and buffed. It got nerfed in its healing value (ticks half as often, and only 85% increase) and got buffed in utility (cast half as often for less stamina).

Vigor as a skill got nerfed for organized small groups, as you can no longer stack three vigor types like you can on live. At best, you can stack two and they won't tick every second.

I'mnot here to discuss op or not, just clearing a lot of the myths and rumors from people who haven't tested or have an agenda.

Have a wonderful day!

Are you sure about that? I’ve heard a lot of conflicting information on this. I’ve heard one of each kind of vigor, I’ve heard two of each kind of vigor and I’ve heard an infinite amount of vigors stack.

I can’t test that myself solo, have you been on PTS to test and can confirm only two echoing vigors can stack?

Only two stacks. From yourself and from ally, since they're considered different effects. Earlier, also base morph of vigor could stack, but in next patch, just two stacks since only one morph keeps the ability to heal allies.

Girl_Number8 · July 2019

SodanTok wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Vigor in self buff alcast pve DPS build :

Also, their is NO cp put in blessing + if you take the selfish morph you get these heal each 0.5sec.
Also, look at the cost, 1950 stam only ? Really ?

Again sorry for the french tooltip, but you got it I think.
Also I'm just gonna ignore the "no-cp guy", no time to wast speaking to him.

Thank you for the test, now we have numerical values with the proof video

ZOS_BrianWheeler

I am confused. First OP claims vigor is too OP then he says we have proof when the proof shows its not OP.

Not like anything OP claims can be taken seriously, anywhere

They probably are not on the pts and obviously don't have a decent understanding of what the game will be like live, once Scalebreaker is released.

If stuff is overtunned it will be dealt with.

Aznarb · July 2019

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Aznarb wrote: »

Vigor in self buff alcast pve DPS build :

Also, their is NO cp put in blessing + if you take the selfish morph you get these heal each 0.5sec.
Also, look at the cost, 1950 stam only ? Really ?

Again sorry for the french tooltip, but you got it I think.
Also I'm just gonna ignore the "no-cp guy", no time to wast speaking to him.

Thank you for the test, now we have numerical values with the proof video

ZOS_BrianWheeler

I am confused. First OP claims vigor is too OP then he says we have proof when the proof shows its not OP.

Not like anything OP claims can be taken seriously, anywhere

They probably are not on the pts and obviously don't have a decent understanding of what the game will be like live, once Scalebreaker is released.

If stuff is overtunned it will be dealt with.

Agree I don't think some thing will stay like that, they probably just need more data.
PTS is far from being finish and tomorrow we got a new update, let just wait and see, we can clearly see from patch note than they try to do something big and it's not go be fast or easy.

I'll cry a bit (or more) as a healer, but I'll give them time and see how it evolve.

master_vanargand · July 2019

Crybaby always shout "OP".
Oh my Sithis...When does Crybaby stop crying?

Aznarb · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Few important details.

Resolving vigor did not get buffed 85%, base vigor did. Resolving does not heal the caster 30% more like it does on live because it only affects the caster. On *my* build it's a rough 40% buff (maybe a shade over).

Echoing vigor got nerfed and buffed. It got nerfed in its healing value (ticks half as often, and only 85% increase) and got buffed in utility (cast half as often for less stamina).

Vigor as a skill got nerfed for organized small groups, as you can no longer stack three vigor types like you can on live. At best, you can stack two and they won't tick every second.

I'mnot here to discuss op or not, just clearing a lot of the myths and rumors from people who haven't tested or have an agenda.

Have a wonderful day!

Are you sure about that? I’ve heard a lot of conflicting information on this. I’ve heard one of each kind of vigor, I’ve heard two of each kind of vigor and I’ve heard an infinite amount of vigors stack.

I can’t test that myself solo, have you been on PTS to test and can confirm only two echoing vigors can stack?

Same, I've ear lot of thing about how it stack.
I can (and have) test lot about power heal of this skill and how easily it can be add to rotation.
But I'm still not sur about how it stack cuz I don't have enough ppl to test it on pts sadly.

DocFrost72 · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Few important details.

Resolving vigor did not get buffed 85%, base vigor did. Resolving does not heal the caster 30% more like it does on live because it only affects the caster. On *my* build it's a rough 40% buff (maybe a shade over).

Echoing vigor got nerfed and buffed. It got nerfed in its healing value (ticks half as often, and only 85% increase) and got buffed in utility (cast half as often for less stamina).

Vigor as a skill got nerfed for organized small groups, as you can no longer stack three vigor types like you can on live. At best, you can stack two and they won't tick every second.

I'mnot here to discuss op or not, just clearing a lot of the myths and rumors from people who haven't tested or have an agenda.

Have a wonderful day!

Are you sure about that? I’ve heard a lot of conflicting information on this. I’ve heard one of each kind of vigor, I’ve heard two of each kind of vigor and I’ve heard an infinite amount of vigors stack.

I can’t test that myself solo, have you been on PTS to test and can confirm only two echoing vigors can stack?

Yes. I currently take advantage of echoing+ resolving on live with my wife while we duo. In pvp, small groups would use all three types of vigor (unmorphed, resolving, echoing) to get crazy stacking healing.

In pts, there is only one morph that affects others and it can't stack with itself. What it CAN do is overwrite another stack. Ie John and Jane both use echoing a second apart, both affecting Jim. John's hits first, a second later Jane's overwrites his. Two seconds later, Jane's second tick goes. John's has entirely been removed.

If that helps explain it, anyway. Hope it helped!

Aznarb · July 2019

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Few important details.

Resolving vigor did not get buffed 85%, base vigor did. Resolving does not heal the caster 30% more like it does on live because it only affects the caster. On *my* build it's a rough 40% buff (maybe a shade over).

Echoing vigor got nerfed and buffed. It got nerfed in its healing value (ticks half as often, and only 85% increase) and got buffed in utility (cast half as often for less stamina).

Vigor as a skill got nerfed for organized small groups, as you can no longer stack three vigor types like you can on live. At best, you can stack two and they won't tick every second.

I'mnot here to discuss op or not, just clearing a lot of the myths and rumors from people who haven't tested or have an agenda.

Have a wonderful day!

Are you sure about that? I’ve heard a lot of conflicting information on this. I’ve heard one of each kind of vigor, I’ve heard two of each kind of vigor and I’ve heard an infinite amount of vigors stack.

I can’t test that myself solo, have you been on PTS to test and can confirm only two echoing vigors can stack?

Yes. I currently take advantage of echoing+ resolving on live with my wife while we duo. In pvp, small groups would use all three types of vigor (unmorphed, resolving, echoing) to get crazy stacking healing.

In pts, there is only one morph that affects others and it can't stack with itself. What it CAN do is overwrite another stack. Ie John and Jane both use echoing a second apart, both affecting Jim. John's hits first, a second later Jane's overwrites his. Two seconds later, Jane's second tick goes. John's has entirely been removed.

If that helps explain it, anyway. Hope it helped!

That good to know, thanks you.

RiskyChalice863 · July 2019

MincVinyl wrote: »

You can't just look at tooltips or individual ticks of vigor to see if it is op, you have to look at your healing overall in solo situations and group situations.

Solo- yeah of course the new vigor will be stronger than the previous one, it was buffed by 85% ...but lost aoe. If you choose to run the new aoe version you are very susceptible to burst and you essentially half your hps by taking this morph.

Group- you will see a big loss in hps, even greater if you have a large group. Not to mention some people will take the solo morph of vigor and won't want to pay to change it each time they enter a group.

essentially the vigor change buffed solo gameplay while hard nerfed group heals. Please don't just compare tool tips and assume it is op that isn't how the game works, mathematically you lose out in every scenario other than dueling or true 1vX

It is completely false that “you essentially half your hps by taking” the AOE morph. The heal ticks half as often, but each tick is 85% larger. So it’s actually only a 7.5% decrease in hps compared to Echoing Vigor. And, in exchange for that 7.5% decrease in hps, it costs 1216 less stamina and lasts twice as long. This means that keeping it up on your group literally takes less than one-third as much stamina as it does on live. I’d personally say it’s an overall buff to group healing to get a 7.5% decrease in heals per second but in exchange have upkeep of the ability cost less than one-third as much.

Wuuffyy · July 2019

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

You can't just look at tooltips or individual ticks of vigor to see if it is op, you have to look at your healing overall in solo situations and group situations.

Solo- yeah of course the new vigor will be stronger than the previous one, it was buffed by 85% ...but lost aoe. If you choose to run the new aoe version you are very susceptible to burst and you essentially half your hps by taking this morph.

Group- you will see a big loss in hps, even greater if you have a large group. Not to mention some people will take the solo morph of vigor and won't want to pay to change it each time they enter a group.

essentially the vigor change buffed solo gameplay while hard nerfed group heals. Please don't just compare tool tips and assume it is op that isn't how the game works, mathematically you lose out in every scenario other than dueling or true 1vX

It is completely false that “you essentially half your hps by taking” the AOE morph. The heal ticks half as often, but each tick is 85% larger. So it’s actually only a 7.5% decrease in hps compared to Echoing Vigor. And, in exchange for that 7.5% decrease in hps, it costs 1216 less stamina and lasts twice as long. This means that keeping it up on your group literally takes less than one-third as much stamina as it does on live. I’d personally say it’s an overall buff to group healing to get a 7.5% decrease in heals per second but in exchange have upkeep of the ability cost less than one-third as much.

Lol no bud. Both were increased by that amount but echoing was halved in terms of healing per second effectiveness which actually leaves it at a 15% nerf to live vigors. Do the math correctly or you can go back and get your GED if you want. Either way idc.

Wuuffyy · July 2019

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

The real issue of this feeling about Vigor is that it got buffed the same patch magicka healing got nerfed, some magicka playstile got nerfed, some magicka class got nerfed, and now we find that stamina classes jeep topping DPS charts while now they have better self-heals, better survability than magicka and better sustain. Its not an issue of class balance, is that right now DD stamina is better than magicka in every aspect of the game. Including range, as bows are as good as diestro staffs.

There is not a single reason to play a magicka DD if you have a stamina DD. The only magicka DD close to stamina were sorcs but they get heavy nerfed this patch on selfheals and survability.

If the players who play DD stamina cant under stand the changes and the state of the game, and the rage this means for the players who play magicka DD, then its just the bias.

Personally this patch will give me a new challenge which will be to play my healer effectively and useful to a trial or dlc dungeon party, and many reasons to make my stamden and stamcro my main DDs, and leave my magsorc in the closet after so much gameplay. Not thinking about leaving the game, yet. Take it as a new beginning. And dont worry, one day things will change, developers responsable wont be stamina, and we will see more balance or even magicka being better on anything than stamina and many stamina players rage.

Lol thats not true. People pick mag hands down every time due to shields adding another 60% health to your effective health pool and in one second. Also, range is a steep advantage over melee.

Sanguinor2 · July 2019

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Lol thats not true. People pick mag hands down every time due to shields adding another 60% health to your effective health pool and in one second. Also, range is a steep advantage over melee.

Nah mate, not true at all, talking PvE atleast. If you care About optimizing your Group there is no reason, outside of minitrials, to take along a mag dd. In nearly every Encounter you stand in melee range anyway so there is no range Advantage and stam dps is vastly superior compared to mag. Even in minitrials it is better from a dps perspective to bring a full Stamina Group as Long as everyone is comfortable on them.

Wuuffyy · July 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Lol thats not true. People pick mag hands down every time due to shields adding another 60% health to your effective health pool and in one second. Also, range is a steep advantage over melee.

Nah mate, not true at all, talking PvE atleast. If you care About optimizing your Group there is no reason, outside of minitrials, to take along a mag dd. In nearly every Encounter you stand in melee range anyway so there is no range Advantage and stam dps is vastly superior compared to mag. Even in minitrials it is better from a dps perspective to bring a full Stamina Group as Long as everyone is comfortable on them.

But excluding all that content and saying those things when it was not long ago when almost no stam were taken into real content?

Iskiab · July 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Lol thats not true. People pick mag hands down every time due to shields adding another 60% health to your effective health pool and in one second. Also, range is a steep advantage over melee.

Nah mate, not true at all, talking PvE atleast. If you care About optimizing your Group there is no reason, outside of minitrials, to take along a mag dd. In nearly every Encounter you stand in melee range anyway so there is no range Advantage and stam dps is vastly superior compared to mag. Even in minitrials it is better from a dps perspective to bring a full Stamina Group as Long as everyone is comfortable on them.

In pvp as well, melee’s usually stronger. I think ranged can do well 1v1, but as soon as you add a healer melee’s far better. Ranged usually try and play really squishy, and as soon as they’re charged they’ll do nothing but kite until they die, but die they always do.

That’s this patch, next patch I expect ranged to be stronger then melee in most settings.

Sanguinor2 · July 2019

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

But excluding all that content and saying those things when it was not long ago when almost no stam were taken into real content?

Did you miss the last year + a few months? We had a stamblade stack meta for like a year before the stamnecro stack meta started, it was only magblade stack in minitrials in everything else stamblade stack was superior (Also the Asylum sanctorium world record was made by a full stamblade Group pre elsweyr). Yeah we had times where magdds were better than stam but that times were Minimum 1.5 years ago. I´d prefer it if classes would be Closer in dps but w/e, this wont Change anytime soon.

Iskiab · July 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

But excluding all that content and saying those things when it was not long ago when almost no stam were taken into real content?

Did you miss the last year + a few months? We had a stamblade stack meta for like a year before the stamnecro stack meta started, it was only magblade stack in minitrials in everything else stamblade stack was superior (Also the Asylum sanctorium world record was made by a full stamblade Group pre elsweyr). Yeah we had times where magdds were better than stam but that times were Minimum 1.5 years ago. I´d prefer it if classes would be Closer in dps but w/e, this wont Change anytime soon.

It won’t change as in it’s not possible. One class will always be highest.

It won’t change until class passives are changed to force groups to take one mag and stam of every class in a trial.

universal_wrath · July 2019

Some people need to understand that buff to healing in general(not only vigor), is a respond to the increase of damage out put. Some put a 40k tooltip for vigor here, in another forum, another guy put 67k physical damage tooltip to soul trap. Single target dots and direct dmg has been buffed almost accross the board, they even intruduced 3 dots, 2 of them have similar high tooltips. If pts goes live and healing is not buffed, most people will die of 1 soul trap cast in either cp or no cp. After patch, I'm cetain that soul trap will be a core pvp/pve skill, imagine 2 or 3 players casting the skill on you, say each deals 20k dmg.

I'm not saying that vigor,mutegen, healing wards are not stronger next patch. I'm saying they are counterplay to the new changes of dmg boost.

Zelos · July 2019

It was increased to counter the new dot buffs that have the tooltips like 30k over 10 seconds. If you have 3 or 4 of those on you with the old vigor... good luck.

Wuuffyy · July 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

But excluding all that content and saying those things when it was not long ago when almost no stam were taken into real content?

Did you miss the last year + a few months? We had a stamblade stack meta for like a year before the stamnecro stack meta started, it was only magblade stack in minitrials in everything else stamblade stack was superior (Also the Asylum sanctorium world record was made by a full stamblade Group pre elsweyr). Yeah we had times where magdds were better than stam but that times were Minimum 1.5 years ago. I´d prefer it if classes would be Closer in dps but w/e, this wont Change anytime soon.

Like it was okay for mag to dominate everything but when stam takes half or less. Its wrong even though melee still is a far more inherent risk of failure in real combat.