Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »If Magdens want to stun people, they should just slot volcanic rune from the mages guild line, duh. Otherwise they should just hope that a kindly nightblade happens by and draining shots whoever they’re fighting.
Lord_Eomer wrote: »I am happy with new changes, use fire staff for CC instead of Shock
That’s a ridiculous comment. These classes lost a reliable stun and now are forced to used flame staff to lose even more damage since they’re mostly AOE based and not to mention flame staff is heavily unreliable.
Knocks people out of your shalks, sleet storm, and colossus.
They need a reliable stun. Not some inconsistent knock back that messes up their burst and makes them lose even more damage than they already are.
Smh
Lord_Eomer wrote: »Lord_Eomer wrote: »I am happy with new changes, use fire staff for CC instead of Shock
That’s a ridiculous comment. These classes lost a reliable stun and now are forced to used flame staff to lose even more damage since they’re mostly AOE based and not to mention flame staff is heavily unreliable.
Knocks people out of your shalks, sleet storm, and colossus.
They need a reliable stun. Not some inconsistent knock back that messes up their burst and makes them lose even more damage than they already are.
Smh
What's ridiculous in it? If something you do not like it becomes ridiculous?
All effects should not offer something different? As per you there should be no diversity at all!
Lord_Eomer wrote: »Lord_Eomer wrote: »I am happy with new changes, use fire staff for CC instead of Shock
That’s a ridiculous comment. These classes lost a reliable stun and now are forced to used flame staff to lose even more damage since they’re mostly AOE based and not to mention flame staff is heavily unreliable.
Knocks people out of your shalks, sleet storm, and colossus.
They need a reliable stun. Not some inconsistent knock back that messes up their burst and makes them lose even more damage than they already are.
Smh
What's ridiculous in it? If something you do not like it becomes ridiculous?
All effects should not offer something different? As per you there should be no diversity at all!
You're arguing diversity for the sake of diversity. That's what's ridiculous
Mojomonkeyman wrote: »The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue
I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.
So yeah, I have to disagree. Not on the fact that a proper cc would be much, much better, but on your claim that alternative playstyles are DOA.
I'm here to agree, I only hope the devs are reading
Agreed. The direct damage reduction and DoT removal was an okay nerf, but PTS shock clench will be dead in small-scale without a CC. It won't be great for a structured group either since pulsar is far more superior damage-wise (and was buffed even in comparison).
Magden lacks a strong CC that synergizes with their high burst potential. Magnecro's CC is weak against ranged classes since it can be easily avoided. Using fire clench just lowers your overall damage even more after the direct damage nerf.
Also the new fire clench CC is pretty ridiculous. Knockback itself is such an insanely frustrating and clunky CC to deal with since it ruins your positioning, and an 8m knockback is going to be very prevelant in PvP since half the magicka classes are going to be forced to run force clench now. Plus the CC seems to have been reworked and has a weird 2-part CC effect like draining shot.Mojomonkeyman wrote: »The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue
I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.
So yeah, I have to disagree. Not on the fact that a proper cc would be much, much better, but on your claim that alternative playstyles are DOA.
Never heard of you in BGs before. Just because you aren't using something doesn't mean other people aren't, and it just so happens that shock clench magden was the "bread and butter" of the class. And even then, if you ran bird/ele weapon, you NEEDED a CC, and shock reach isn't an option next patch. So I wouldn't be so dismissive of the nerf since you mentioned yourself you have no experience playing with it.
Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Agreed. The direct damage reduction and DoT removal was an okay nerf, but PTS shock clench will be dead in small-scale without a CC. It won't be great for a structured group either since pulsar is far more superior damage-wise (and was buffed even in comparison).
Magden lacks a strong CC that synergizes with their high burst potential. Magnecro's CC is weak against ranged classes since it can be easily avoided. Using fire clench just lowers your overall damage even more after the direct damage nerf.
Also the new fire clench CC is pretty ridiculous. Knockback itself is such an insanely frustrating and clunky CC to deal with since it ruins your positioning, and an 8m knockback is going to be very prevelant in PvP since half the magicka classes are going to be forced to run force clench now. Plus the CC seems to have been reworked and has a weird 2-part CC effect like draining shot.Mojomonkeyman wrote: »The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue
I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.
So yeah, I have to disagree. Not on the fact that a proper cc would be much, much better, but on your claim that alternative playstyles are DOA.
Never heard of you in BGs before. Just because you aren't using something doesn't mean other people aren't, and it just so happens that shock clench magden was the "bread and butter" of the class. And even then, if you ran bird/ele weapon, you NEEDED a CC, and shock reach isn't an option next patch. So I wouldn't be so dismissive of the nerf since you mentioned yourself you have no experience playing with it.
That's because you have never played BGs in high MMR. I never said I have no experience using clench. I said I didnt crutch on it on the classes that people claim would be useless without. Can't expect people who can't even read properly to l2p their class, I guess.
Lord_Eomer wrote: »@ZOS_BrianWheeler everything should remain as previous patch, there is no need for balance.
Give everything a huge buff, some players will never understand what balance is.
I believe ZOS did good with with this patch and should decide next pts changes carefully
Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.
While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.
But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.
I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.
Even without the masters staff, the stun on shock clench was important to those who built for aoe, and the shock stun didnt sometimes knock the target out of range of your other skills.
I understand what your getting at and we do need class stun improvements but it added another element of gameplay style.
But that element of gameplaystyle (no matter from what angle I'm looking at it, eso pvp or within general established pvp frameworks a cross various games I played) was actively promoting bad (brainless) gameplay. A clench spammer would not stop spamming clench, cc immunity up or not. It rendered proper timings irrelevant.
Contrary to all other old- and newschool stuns (frag, streak, fear, toppling, petrify, fissure, etc) which get/got more useful the better you timed them. Clench spam (esp with master staff) was a very poorly designed outlier - and I am glad its gone for that reason mostly.
CP is a crutch for people who can’t sustain and want to be "tanky" so they aren’t immediately punished for making mistakes.
Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Mojomonkeyman wrote: »I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.
While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.
But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.
I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.
Even without the masters staff, the stun on shock clench was important to those who built for aoe, and the shock stun didnt sometimes knock the target out of range of your other skills.
I understand what your getting at and we do need class stun improvements but it added another element of gameplay style.
But that element of gameplaystyle (no matter from what angle I'm looking at it, eso pvp or within general established pvp frameworks a cross various games I played) was actively promoting bad (brainless) gameplay. A clench spammer would not stop spamming clench, cc immunity up or not. It rendered proper timings irrelevant.
Contrary to all other old- and newschool stuns (frag, streak, fear, toppling, petrify, fissure, etc) which get/got more useful the better you timed them. Clench spam (esp with master staff) was a very poorly designed outlier - and I am glad its gone for that reason mostly.
This, so much this. Not sorry that a huge population of Bags will need to do something else besides spam clench until frags procs
Mojomonkeyman wrote: »Agreed. The direct damage reduction and DoT removal was an okay nerf, but PTS shock clench will be dead in small-scale without a CC. It won't be great for a structured group either since pulsar is far more superior damage-wise (and was buffed even in comparison).
Magden lacks a strong CC that synergizes with their high burst potential. Magnecro's CC is weak against ranged classes since it can be easily avoided. Using fire clench just lowers your overall damage even more after the direct damage nerf.
Also the new fire clench CC is pretty ridiculous. Knockback itself is such an insanely frustrating and clunky CC to deal with since it ruins your positioning, and an 8m knockback is going to be very prevelant in PvP since half the magicka classes are going to be forced to run force clench now. Plus the CC seems to have been reworked and has a weird 2-part CC effect like draining shot.Mojomonkeyman wrote: »The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue
I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.
So yeah, I have to disagree. Not on the fact that a proper cc would be much, much better, but on your claim that alternative playstyles are DOA.
Never heard of you in BGs before. Just because you aren't using something doesn't mean other people aren't, and it just so happens that shock clench magden was the "bread and butter" of the class. And even then, if you ran bird/ele weapon, you NEEDED a CC, and shock reach isn't an option next patch. So I wouldn't be so dismissive of the nerf since you mentioned yourself you have no experience playing with it.
That's because you have never played BGs in high MMR. I never said I have no experience using clench. I said I didnt crutch on it on the classes that people claim would be useless without. Can't expect people who can't even read properly to l2p their class, I guess.
I'd personally rather see Master's Destruction staff adjusted, and return the stun to shock morph. I think the Master's staves are what are enabling players to use what is on live a stun as a spammable.
Speaking as someone who played Magicka Warden as a main from the early access of Morrowind up until the early access of Elsweyr:
1) Clench/Reach + Master's Staff was absolutely an issue, and I'm glad that it's being changed. Spammables with that sort of damage and cost should not also have a stun, knockback, or root attached (Frost was rarely used with a Master Staff really, but it was oh so annoying when you did encounter it).
2) Arctic Blast is better than it was when initially turned into a stun, but it's still not where it needs to be. The cost is far too high for what it is; a generic single target stun with a weak heal attached. The only advantage it ever had over Shock Clench/Reach (even when that skill was used as only a stun, without a Master Staff) is that it can't be reflected. Now that spamming Wings for CC immunity is no longer a thing, this advantage is rarely relevant anymore.
So, basically, ZOS did half of what they should. The quickest and easiest option, IMO, is to simply cut the cost of Arctic Blast. If they want to rework it more in the future, then that's fine - it could probably use it. But I wouldn't expect a major overhaul of the spell before Scalebreaker makes its way to live.
If reducing the cost (by a fairly significant amount, hopefully) means that the ability is a "rule breaker," then so be it. The HP-based heal that only happens when actually stunning a target is certainly nothing special in PvP, so that aspect is really just jacking up the cost for very minimal benefit (and it's not like this is some "crucial" skill/morph for PvE tanking, either).