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Shock Clench should keep its stun

  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
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    Sorry in PC
    If Magdens want to stun people, they should just slot volcanic rune from the mages guild line, duh. Otherwise they should just hope that a kindly nightblade happens by and draining shots whoever they’re fighting.

    Rely on someone else to stun. Yeah great idea
  • Myux
    Myux
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    the whole point of the patch is to get things the way they want so they can balance other stuff, but with the way they're doing it, it renders classes that lack any form of decent stun to suck it for who knows how long. they should've gave necro and warden a decent basic stun a long time ago, but they never did. ok im gonna talk about their "stuns" now

    wardens stun is absolute unbelieveable trash. its delayed by what feels like a year, is blockable and dodgeable (which is standard but not when everything else about it is garbage), and its "main effect" is a trash bin heal that does barely anything. and it costs 4k. people who would use this stun dont do it out of choice, but by necessity of the fact that they have nothing else. or they wanna roleplay as an ice wizard. this whole morph needs an overhaul if its gonna stay as wardens stun, something that flows better with its gameplay. i get wardens gameplay is "many delayed skills so they can time everything to hit at the same time" but this isnt it. its a band-aid stun after they deleted shalk stun, but the band-aid is moldy and diseased. you need to fix wardens CC issue from the source.

    necros stun is good as a utility stun for group play and other scenarios, but for an individual necro it just isnt gonna cut it. its also delayed, which isnt even part of necros whole gimmick aside from blastbones (also this skill doesnt even synergize well with blastbones to begin with. an instant stun would be much better). it isnt dodgeable or blockable which is an upside, but 2 whole seconds is way too long for an individual player to defensively react to scenarios, or to reliably get off an offensive stun when you need it. necro needs a better, more basic level stun that synergizes well with its gameplay.

    one of the new classes looked-over points always seems to be its CCs, and i have no idea why when its such a crucial part of a classes gameplay and uniqueness. like, look at fossilize, mass hysteria, and total dark (which is getting changed to be even weirder, for better or worse im not certain but its sure better for the plars). the only class that doesnt have a very unique and well thought out stun is sorc, who used to just use frags to stun. warden and necros CCs NEED to be thought out better before you can remove their only viable option.
    Edited by Myux on July 12, 2019 3:15PM
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  • iCaliban
    iCaliban
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    Shock clench needs to retain the stun. This is a nonsense change that should be reverted. Losing 13 meters of range, the dot, and 17% damage is already a severe enough nerf.
  • Lord_Eomer
    Lord_Eomer
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    frostz417 wrote: »
    Lord_Eomer wrote: »
    I am happy with new changes, use fire staff for CC instead of Shock

    That’s a ridiculous comment. These classes lost a reliable stun and now are forced to used flame staff to lose even more damage since they’re mostly AOE based and not to mention flame staff is heavily unreliable.
    Knocks people out of your shalks, sleet storm, and colossus.
    They need a reliable stun. Not some inconsistent knock back that messes up their burst and makes them lose even more damage than they already are.
    Smh

    What's ridiculous in it? If something you do not like it becomes ridiculous?

    All effects should not offer something different? As per you there should be no diversity at all!
  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
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    Lord_Eomer wrote: »
    frostz417 wrote: »
    Lord_Eomer wrote: »
    I am happy with new changes, use fire staff for CC instead of Shock

    That’s a ridiculous comment. These classes lost a reliable stun and now are forced to used flame staff to lose even more damage since they’re mostly AOE based and not to mention flame staff is heavily unreliable.
    Knocks people out of your shalks, sleet storm, and colossus.
    They need a reliable stun. Not some inconsistent knock back that messes up their burst and makes them lose even more damage than they already are.
    Smh

    What's ridiculous in it? If something you do not like it becomes ridiculous?

    All effects should not offer something different? As per you there should be no diversity at all!

    You're arguing diversity for the sake of diversity. That's what's ridiculous
  • Lord_Eomer
    Lord_Eomer
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    ✭✭
    Muskrap wrote: »
    Lord_Eomer wrote: »
    frostz417 wrote: »
    Lord_Eomer wrote: »
    I am happy with new changes, use fire staff for CC instead of Shock

    That’s a ridiculous comment. These classes lost a reliable stun and now are forced to used flame staff to lose even more damage since they’re mostly AOE based and not to mention flame staff is heavily unreliable.
    Knocks people out of your shalks, sleet storm, and colossus.
    They need a reliable stun. Not some inconsistent knock back that messes up their burst and makes them lose even more damage than they already are.
    Smh

    What's ridiculous in it? If something you do not like it becomes ridiculous?

    All effects should not offer something different? As per you there should be no diversity at all!

    You're arguing diversity for the sake of diversity. That's what's ridiculous

    Well seems like hate mongers not like diversity but wanted to spread hate all over!
  • Ulfgarde
    Ulfgarde
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    Agreed. The direct damage reduction and DoT removal was an okay nerf, but PTS shock clench will be dead in small-scale without a CC. It won't be great for a structured group either since pulsar is far more superior damage-wise (and was buffed even in comparison).

    Magden lacks a strong CC that synergizes with their high burst potential. Magnecro's CC is weak against ranged classes since it can be easily avoided. Using fire clench just lowers your overall damage even more after the direct damage nerf.

    Also the new fire clench CC is pretty ridiculous. Knockback itself is such an insanely frustrating and clunky CC to deal with since it ruins your positioning, and an 8m knockback is going to be very prevelant in PvP since half the magicka classes are going to be forced to run force clench now. Plus the CC seems to have been reworked and has a weird 2-part CC effect like draining shot.
    Muskrap wrote: »
    The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue

    I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.

    So yeah, I have to disagree. Not on the fact that a proper cc would be much, much better, but on your claim that alternative playstyles are DOA.

    Never heard of you in BGs before. Just because you aren't using something doesn't mean other people aren't, and it just so happens that shock clench magden was the "bread and butter" of the class. And even then, if you ran bird/ele weapon, you NEEDED a CC, and shock reach isn't an option next patch. So I wouldn't be so dismissive of the nerf since you mentioned yourself you have no experience playing with it.

    Very athletic eso player
    PC EU
  • TheRealPotoroo
    TheRealPotoroo
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    Ivan04 wrote: »
    I'm here to agree, I only hope the devs are reading

    Anything that makes PTS has to be completely broken before the devs will even think about removing it. This garbage change is there for reasons no rational person will ever comprehend.
    PC NA, PC EU
  • ZarkingFrued
    ZarkingFrued
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    .
    Edited by ZarkingFrued on July 13, 2019 4:41AM
  • ZarkingFrued
    ZarkingFrued
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    Sad, I'll ultimately end up retiring 2 to 3 classes for at least a few patches. Magden and magcro due to this one

    Edited by ZarkingFrued on July 13, 2019 4:40AM
  • ZarkingFrued
    ZarkingFrued
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    If you think about it clench morph having flame giving knockback, ice giving immobilized, and shock giving stun really just makes sense... @ZOS_GinaBruno
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    Ulfgarde wrote: »
    Agreed. The direct damage reduction and DoT removal was an okay nerf, but PTS shock clench will be dead in small-scale without a CC. It won't be great for a structured group either since pulsar is far more superior damage-wise (and was buffed even in comparison).

    Magden lacks a strong CC that synergizes with their high burst potential. Magnecro's CC is weak against ranged classes since it can be easily avoided. Using fire clench just lowers your overall damage even more after the direct damage nerf.

    Also the new fire clench CC is pretty ridiculous. Knockback itself is such an insanely frustrating and clunky CC to deal with since it ruins your positioning, and an 8m knockback is going to be very prevelant in PvP since half the magicka classes are going to be forced to run force clench now. Plus the CC seems to have been reworked and has a weird 2-part CC effect like draining shot.
    Muskrap wrote: »
    The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue

    I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.

    So yeah, I have to disagree. Not on the fact that a proper cc would be much, much better, but on your claim that alternative playstyles are DOA.

    Never heard of you in BGs before. Just because you aren't using something doesn't mean other people aren't, and it just so happens that shock clench magden was the "bread and butter" of the class. And even then, if you ran bird/ele weapon, you NEEDED a CC, and shock reach isn't an option next patch. So I wouldn't be so dismissive of the nerf since you mentioned yourself you have no experience playing with it.

    That's because you have never played BGs in high MMR. I never said I have no experience using clench. I said I didnt crutch on it on the classes that people claim would be useless without. Can't expect people who can't even read properly to l2p their class, I guess.
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • Wihuri
    Wihuri
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    Hard agree.
  • Lord_Eomer
    Lord_Eomer
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    @ZOS_BrianWheeler everything should remain as previous patch, there is no need for balance.

    Give everything a huge buff, some players will never understand what balance is.

    I believe ZOS did good with with this patch and should decide next pts changes carefully
  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
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    Lord_Eomer wrote: »
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler everything should remain as previous patch, there is no need for balance.

    Give everything a huge buff, some players will never understand what balance is.

    I believe ZOS did good with with this patch and should decide next pts changes carefully

    Except If it hinders solo pvp gameplay how is it balance?
  • Cortimi
    Cortimi
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    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.

    But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.

    I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.

    Even without the masters staff, the stun on shock clench was important to those who built for aoe, and the shock stun didnt sometimes knock the target out of range of your other skills.
    I understand what your getting at and we do need class stun improvements but it added another element of gameplay style.

    But that element of gameplaystyle (no matter from what angle I'm looking at it, eso pvp or within general established pvp frameworks a cross various games I played) was actively promoting bad (brainless) gameplay. A clench spammer would not stop spamming clench, cc immunity up or not. It rendered proper timings irrelevant.

    Contrary to all other old- and newschool stuns (frag, streak, fear, toppling, petrify, fissure, etc) which get/got more useful the better you timed them. Clench spam (esp with master staff) was a very poorly designed outlier - and I am glad its gone for that reason mostly.

    This, so much this. Not sorry that a huge population of Bags will need to do something else besides spam clench until frags procs
    Xbox NA: Soviet Messiah
    EP: Cortimi - Imperial StamDK
    EP: Melga gra-Antilae - Orc StamDen
    EP: Narileya - Nord StamPlar
    EP: Corvaera - Bosmer StamSorc

    PS4 NA (Retired at CP835): Soviet-Messiah:
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    AD: Corvaera - Bosmer StamSorc
    Urvoth wrote: »
    CP is a crutch for people who can’t sustain and want to be "tanky" so they aren’t immediately punished for making mistakes.
  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
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    Cortimi wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.

    But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.

    I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.

    Even without the masters staff, the stun on shock clench was important to those who built for aoe, and the shock stun didnt sometimes knock the target out of range of your other skills.
    I understand what your getting at and we do need class stun improvements but it added another element of gameplay style.

    But that element of gameplaystyle (no matter from what angle I'm looking at it, eso pvp or within general established pvp frameworks a cross various games I played) was actively promoting bad (brainless) gameplay. A clench spammer would not stop spamming clench, cc immunity up or not. It rendered proper timings irrelevant.

    Contrary to all other old- and newschool stuns (frag, streak, fear, toppling, petrify, fissure, etc) which get/got more useful the better you timed them. Clench spam (esp with master staff) was a very poorly designed outlier - and I am glad its gone for that reason mostly.

    This, so much this. Not sorry that a huge population of Bags will need to do something else besides spam clench until frags procs

    Except shock clench isn't going to effect magsorc for one for two the 15m range nerf was way more than enough
  • Vortigaunt
    Vortigaunt
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    Ulfgarde wrote: »
    Agreed. The direct damage reduction and DoT removal was an okay nerf, but PTS shock clench will be dead in small-scale without a CC. It won't be great for a structured group either since pulsar is far more superior damage-wise (and was buffed even in comparison).

    Magden lacks a strong CC that synergizes with their high burst potential. Magnecro's CC is weak against ranged classes since it can be easily avoided. Using fire clench just lowers your overall damage even more after the direct damage nerf.

    Also the new fire clench CC is pretty ridiculous. Knockback itself is such an insanely frustrating and clunky CC to deal with since it ruins your positioning, and an 8m knockback is going to be very prevelant in PvP since half the magicka classes are going to be forced to run force clench now. Plus the CC seems to have been reworked and has a weird 2-part CC effect like draining shot.
    Muskrap wrote: »
    The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue

    I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.

    So yeah, I have to disagree. Not on the fact that a proper cc would be much, much better, but on your claim that alternative playstyles are DOA.

    Never heard of you in BGs before. Just because you aren't using something doesn't mean other people aren't, and it just so happens that shock clench magden was the "bread and butter" of the class. And even then, if you ran bird/ele weapon, you NEEDED a CC, and shock reach isn't an option next patch. So I wouldn't be so dismissive of the nerf since you mentioned yourself you have no experience playing with it.

    That's because you have never played BGs in high MMR. I never said I have no experience using clench. I said I didnt crutch on it on the classes that people claim would be useless without. Can't expect people who can't even read properly to l2p their class, I guess.

    Why do you keep bringing up high MMR BGs as if they mean anything? I can afk, lose or just straight up troll 100 battleground matches and eventually I’ll end up at the top MMR. It means absolutely nothing, it’s all about how many games you play.

    And just because you’re a defile tank and have cinbri do your damage for you doesn’t mean magden works without clench.
  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
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  • LeHarrt91
    LeHarrt91
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    Bump.
    This still needs to be talked about. As well as class stuns for Warden and Necromancer.
    PS4 NA 1100+ CP
    Have played all classes.
    Warden Main
  • Glory
    Glory
    Class Representative
    I'd personally rather see Master's Destruction staff adjusted, and return the stun to shock morph. I think the Master's staves are what are enabling players to use what is on live a stun as a spammable.

    I also think first and foremost classes that don't have a good hard crowd-control skill would strongly benefit from having access to one. Testing on PTS, I felt it more useful to not slot a stun at all than use one of the stuns accessible to me (tested Totem, Fire Clench, Vamp Drain, Volcanic Rune, Fighter's Guild ring, Wrecking Blow, Beckoner's Armor all on magcro).

    I also personally am not a huge fan of the destructive reach meta, but it doesn't make much sense to make one a stun and the other not when there are classes in the game that do not have reliable access to stuns through their class toolkit.
    mDK will rise again.
    Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.

    @Glorious since I have too many characters to list

    Ádamant

    Strongly against Faction Lock
  • Regal_Imp
    Regal_Imp
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    Glory wrote: »
    I'd personally rather see Master's Destruction staff adjusted, and return the stun to shock morph. I think the Master's staves are what are enabling players to use what is on live a stun as a spammable.

    I agree with Muskrap and with this above statement.

    ZOS has a tendency to balance things in a really roundabout way. bash collosus was an issue so they nerfed snb, master's is too strong, so they remove the only viable out of class mag stun in the game? This is a terriblew way to balance.

    Reduce the effects of master's destro by 25% and I'm sure you'll see beneficial results.

    AD: Brian Wheel'r/Halle Bear-y/Regal Implar DC: Enel/Blue Imp EP: Regal Pimp/Chuck Bear-y/Red Imp
  • Pelican
    Pelican
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    I still dont understand the need to change destructive reach/clench. Its not overpowered, just very convenient so thats why many people use it. Im guessing the devs see high popularity as a sign of overperforming and hence deserving of a nerf
    PC NA - EP Solo PvP Player
    https://www.youtube.com/c/pelicaneso
  • Bhelen
    Bhelen
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    Relying on weapon skill lines for stuns is already kind of depressing really. Its a band-aid solution but at-least it was a solution. They wanna remove spam-able stuns that deal damage but don't take into account that something like fossilize or the new eclipse is way stronger. I'd take one less ability for a real CC on necro/warden any day.
  • LeHarrt91
    LeHarrt91
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    The trifecta of these was good tho, Flame Knock-back, Shock Stun and Frost Immobilise.
    Yes, the spammability of this for damage was an issue and reducing the initial damage would have fixed that.
    PS4 NA 1100+ CP
    Have played all classes.
    Warden Main
  • _Ahala_
    _Ahala_
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    Magden needs a viable ranged damage dealing stun one way or another... taking away the last viable damage dealing ranged stun from a class that literally gets a damage boost on its (currently garbage) spammable the further you are away from your target makes no sense... zos really aught to either fix arctic blast by reworking it into a useful stun for magden as it is currently not a viable option without damage or leave shock reach alone... we have lost our cliff racer reliability, our cliff racer combos, our fissure stun, our fissure unblockability, our fissure damage (major evasion for everyone), our bird of prey major expedition uptime, and our high bear damage... must we now also lose our last good ranged stun?
    Edited by _Ahala_ on July 17, 2019 4:11AM
  • wheem_ESO
    wheem_ESO
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    Speaking as someone who played Magicka Warden as a main from the early access of Morrowind up until the early access of Elsweyr:
    1) Clench/Reach + Master's Staff was absolutely an issue, and I'm glad that it's being changed. Spammables with that sort of damage and cost should not also have a stun, knockback, or root attached (Frost was rarely used with a Master Staff really, but it was oh so annoying when you did encounter it).

    2) Arctic Blast is better than it was when initially turned into a stun, but it's still not where it needs to be. The cost is far too high for what it is; a generic single target stun with a weak heal attached. The only advantage it ever had over Shock Clench/Reach (even when that skill was used as only a stun, without a Master Staff) is that it can't be reflected. Now that spamming Wings for CC immunity is no longer a thing, this advantage is rarely relevant anymore.

    So, basically, ZOS did half of what they should. The quickest and easiest option, IMO, is to simply cut the cost of Arctic Blast. If they want to rework it more in the future, then that's fine - it could probably use it. But I wouldn't expect a major overhaul of the spell before Scalebreaker makes its way to live.

    If reducing the cost (by a fairly significant amount, hopefully) means that the ability is a "rule breaker," then so be it. The HP-based heal that only happens when actually stunning a target is certainly nothing special in PvP, so that aspect is really just jacking up the cost for very minimal benefit (and it's not like this is some "crucial" skill/morph for PvE tanking, either).
  • TheRealPotoroo
    TheRealPotoroo
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    wheem_ESO wrote: »
    Speaking as someone who played Magicka Warden as a main from the early access of Morrowind up until the early access of Elsweyr:
    1) Clench/Reach + Master's Staff was absolutely an issue, and I'm glad that it's being changed. Spammables with that sort of damage and cost should not also have a stun, knockback, or root attached (Frost was rarely used with a Master Staff really, but it was oh so annoying when you did encounter it).

    2) Arctic Blast is better than it was when initially turned into a stun, but it's still not where it needs to be. The cost is far too high for what it is; a generic single target stun with a weak heal attached. The only advantage it ever had over Shock Clench/Reach (even when that skill was used as only a stun, without a Master Staff) is that it can't be reflected. Now that spamming Wings for CC immunity is no longer a thing, this advantage is rarely relevant anymore.

    So, basically, ZOS did half of what they should. The quickest and easiest option, IMO, is to simply cut the cost of Arctic Blast. If they want to rework it more in the future, then that's fine - it could probably use it. But I wouldn't expect a major overhaul of the spell before Scalebreaker makes its way to live.

    If reducing the cost (by a fairly significant amount, hopefully) means that the ability is a "rule breaker," then so be it. The HP-based heal that only happens when actually stunning a target is certainly nothing special in PvP, so that aspect is really just jacking up the cost for very minimal benefit (and it's not like this is some "crucial" skill/morph for PvE tanking, either).

    The instances of PVE "balances" stuffing up PVP and PVP "balances" stuffing up PVE are endless. ZOS never learn.
    PC NA, PC EU
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