Finally got onto PTS to start testing this. Using my current live light attack build my dps is down from 44k to 32k, a loss of 10k dps. That includes changing from pack master to berserker (in its current iteration pack master isn't worth the time to test).

I've been playing for 4 years on console, I've never managed good dps as I just can't do the animation canceling well enough to achieve higher than 30k even with meta builds. Don't know whether that's the control pad mode or the lack of a fibre cable. As it stands, I no longer have an end game viable dps, and many players in my werewolf guild will be in the same boat. I expect many of them to leave this patch.

It seems to me these nerfs are a bit heavy handed and triple dipped in places. I understand not wanting werewolf being high in the meta forever, but currently the skill points are more valuable than the form. To get 44k (and now 32k) required fully building around the form and reduced my out of form dps by 10k, so clearly there currently isn't any purpose to building around werewolf.

Of course, I should try to adapt, so I will. I'll spend some time testing new set combinations and trying to do a rotation. Of course all the cost increases will hinder my ability to do that. I'll be frank, if others weren't relying on me to help them get through this patch I probably wouldn't bother and just stop dps'ing.

Chrlynsch wrote: »

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

Main is a nord stamdk.

21m Trial dummy
75k - 80k average live
55k - 60k average pts

6m dummy
45k average live
38k average pts

If I swap to an orc stamsorc though, I got 75k average again on pts with the help you provided earlier. If you test and find different findings I would love some feedback.

I'll hop on pts tonight and see what I can tweek for the Nord Dk Werewolf.

Awesome! Much appreciated!

@FenrisWolf1136

Here is the 6 mil dummy




And the Iron






Here are some changes for the DK

-CP distribution shown on superstar
-Double dot poisons (increased poison status effect/ regen)
-Max health/max food
-Main Hand nirn, off hand sharp

@Chrlynsch Just a heads up, I was looking at your CP distribution, and unless it was recently changed and I just missed it, I don't think Expert Defender actually does anything in PVE, because NPC base attacks aren't counted as light attacks. Been a lot of changes the past few updates so I definitely could have missed that one, but I think you can dump that 27 CP into thick skinned, ironclad (10 each), and the other 7 split between armor focus and spell shield.

I typically have almost identical CP setups in the blue champion stars, though in PVP I invest more into crit and less into light attacks slightly (still 39-50 in PWE), since your effective base crit damage modifier is so much lower on average due to crit resists.

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

Main is a nord stamdk.

21m Trial dummy
75k - 80k average live
55k - 60k average pts

6m dummy
45k average live
38k average pts

If I swap to an orc stamsorc though, I got 75k average again on pts with the help you provided earlier. If you test and find different findings I would love some feedback.

I'll hop on pts tonight and see what I can tweek for the Nord Dk Werewolf.

Awesome! Much appreciated!

@FenrisWolf1136

Here is the 6 mil dummy




And the Iron






Here are some changes for the DK

-CP distribution shown on superstar
-Double dot poisons (increased poison status effect/ regen)
-Max health/max food
-Main Hand nirn, off hand sharp

@Chrlynsch Just a heads up, I was looking at your CP distribution, and unless it was recently changed and I just missed it, I don't think Expert Defender actually does anything in PVE, because NPC base attacks aren't counted as light attacks. Been a lot of changes the past few updates so I definitely could have missed that one, but I think you can dump that 27 CP into thick skinned, ironclad (10 each), and the other 7 split between armor focus and spell shield.

I typically have almost identical CP setups in the blue champion stars, though in PVP I invest more into crit and less into light attacks slightly (still 39-50 in PWE), since your effective base crit damage modifier is so much lower on average due to crit resists.

Tbh I didn't think much about my red CP as I dumped points into it as I was just smacking a target dummy with it.

Good catch though.

Yeah, I definitely get that. Just an optimization observation.

Were Wolves in Battleground less than 50 Level are simply over powered currently,

ZOS is on a right direction, i believe they should not buff WW and review situation till Q4 2019 or Q1 2020 patch.

perditioner wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

Were Wolves in Battleground less than 50 Level are simply over powered currently,

ZOS is on a right direction, i believe they should not buff WW and review situation till Q4 2019 or Q1 2020 patch.

You want all the werewolves in lower than 50 battlegrounds? They won't be anywhere else

if ZOS can not balance then Yes

as currently it seems ZOS can not balance and WW will too much OP in BG less than 50.

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

perditioner wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

Were Wolves in Battleground less than 50 Level are simply over powered currently,

ZOS is on a right direction, i believe they should not buff WW and review situation till Q4 2019 or Q1 2020 patch.

You want all the werewolves in lower than 50 battlegrounds? They won't be anywhere else

if ZOS can not balance then Yes

as currently it seems ZOS can not balance and WW will too much OP in BG less than 50.

You misunderstand. I mean if the only place where werewolves are viable is there, then they will all go there. More wolves!

I don't care as much about PvP personally, nerf them there using battle spirit if that's the problem. I don't think it's reasonable to destroy an entire playstle for the sake of an extremely niche situation (pre formed under 50 battlegrounds).

Qbiken wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

perditioner wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

Were Wolves in Battleground less than 50 Level are simply over powered currently,

ZOS is on a right direction, i believe they should not buff WW and review situation till Q4 2019 or Q1 2020 patch.

You want all the werewolves in lower than 50 battlegrounds? They won't be anywhere else

if ZOS can not balance then Yes

as currently it seems ZOS can not balance and WW will too much OP in BG less than 50.

Below 50 shouldn't be considered when taking balance into consideration.

New players are mostly disappointed to run BG and WW is a nightmare for them.

It has to be considered, pro players are simply abusing WW in less than 50 level BG or PVP

Qbiken wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

perditioner wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

Were Wolves in Battleground less than 50 Level are simply over powered currently,

ZOS is on a right direction, i believe they should not buff WW and review situation till Q4 2019 or Q1 2020 patch.

You want all the werewolves in lower than 50 battlegrounds? They won't be anywhere else

if ZOS can not balance then Yes

as currently it seems ZOS can not balance and WW will too much OP in BG less than 50.

Below 50 shouldn't be considered when taking balance into consideration.

New players are mostly disappointed to run BG and WW is a nightmare for them.

It has to be considered, pro players are simply abusing WW in less than 50 level BG or PVP

Battle scaling is the problem. Any "pro-player" can make a new character and faceroll sub 50, with or without werewolf.

Below 50 is a balance nightmare no matter what you bring.

WW is easiest way to go and make them all cry.

Anyway balance need to pass, lets see what comes next!

Qbiken wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

On live.. No CP WW is beyond OP especially in BG's.. I play as one because they are EZ mode and I hate playing against one because I become EZ mode.

Something drastic had to be done.

Werewolf is good for low mmr sealclubbing, I agree with that......Try bring one to a high mmr game and its RIP

What you mean? Its RIP anyways now. And bleed still got nerfed.

It’s very disappointing how literally a half dozen good werewolf players can get the entire class reworked over and over again by ZOS. ZOS messes around with the class over and over again, and each time, making it increasing more painful and less fun to play. No one asked for these wholesale changes. Can we get one patch where they don’t completely re-do how to play a werewolf? We asked for bug fixes, not a complete re-do!

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

perditioner wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

Were Wolves in Battleground less than 50 Level are simply over powered currently,

ZOS is on a right direction, i believe they should not buff WW and review situation till Q4 2019 or Q1 2020 patch.

You want all the werewolves in lower than 50 battlegrounds? They won't be anywhere else

if ZOS can not balance then Yes

as currently it seems ZOS can not balance and WW will too much OP in BG less than 50.

Under level 50 and low MMR are almost never balanced. Anyone commenting here who is basing their “balance feedback” opinions off of that needs to understand that the game changes a lot the more you play it.

Playing against people who don’t wear impen, don’t use food, don’t use potions, and don’t have any reflexes to break free of, or even use CC is not the same as playing against well equipped players who manage their resources, are constantly healing themselves, break free, and are combining their skills either (or both) offensively or defensively. This isn’t even beginning to take into consideration premade team v pug, or clan v Zerg.

Without the pets to absorb CC, Werewolf is not scary. Any player running a bleed or dot build can do more damage over time better while having more burst and better defense and healing. Show me a berserker (black) wolf running moderate to high MMR BGs on live who doesn’t have a pocket healer or CC spamming class following them around.

Also go ahead and shout “Werewolf dps looking for Vet trial” on live and see how much fun it is to try and find a raid.

These PTS changes are ridiculously excessive to the point of ignorance, and the devs should actually try using this feature of the game before nerfing it into the Daedric realm of “Role Play Only”

Agreed!

An AoE aura taunt of werewolves would be thematically awesome.

Why even play werewolves?

Pets - Bugged. Sorcs and Necromancers do it better and more interestingly.

Bleed - It’s not a unique and type of the damage that functions differently anymore. Other dots are better.

Healing - Other kinda of stamina and magicka healing is much stronger and much more flexible, allowing you to heal allies and help with group play, and costs way less.

Fear - Everyone gets access to fear now. Necros, Nightblades, Werewolves from class skills, and everyone else from guild skills.

AOE damage - other stamina and magicka sources of AoE Damage is way more efficient, less costly, and hits harder.

Single Target damage - other stamina and magicka sources of Single Target Damage is way more efficient, less costly, and hits harder.

Group play - well put together raid beats group of werewolves 90% of the time.

Solo play - questionably any better than 90% if humanoid solo builds.

Skills - 6 skills vs. 12 skills, humanoid builds have access to so much more utility.

Thank you homogenization. Why play werewolves again???

Not to mention that in order to play as a ww, you have to build for it leaving your human form weak. If your not in ww form, you cant hit anywhere near as hard as a class not built around an ult. And depending on the fight, you have a super short timer to constantly worry about keeping filled to stay in form. Cant even fully utilize the boon in march of sacrifices to where werewolves are immune to the indricks teleport magic. Ww's seriously need some additions, not more limitations and nerfs.

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

perditioner wrote: »

Lord_Eomer wrote: »

Were Wolves in Battleground less than 50 Level are simply over powered currently,

ZOS is on a right direction, i believe they should not buff WW and review situation till Q4 2019 or Q1 2020 patch.

You want all the werewolves in lower than 50 battlegrounds? They won't be anywhere else

if ZOS can not balance then Yes

as currently it seems ZOS can not balance and WW will too much OP in BG less than 50.

Then we should get rid of under 50 BGs. They don't really serve a purpose anyway since we have level-scaling.