[Werewolf Scalebreaker feedback] - "Why most of the changes are unjustified and needs tweaking"

Wuuffyy

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Werewolves are not tanks, ZOS said it themselves

Well... actually they are kinda both DPS & Tank...
The developer comment says that they want Pack Leader to be a utility / support morph, while Werewolf Berserker is supposed to raw DMG / DPS morph.

The problem is though Pack Leader on PTS does not offer ANY useful or relevant utility, and it loses A LOT of dps and is way behind Werewolf Berserker. Simply speaking, the current Pack Leader does not have a purpose.

To me it looks like some form of internal miss-communication at ZOS, so they said it is going to provide utility, but they forgot to add tools that will give this utility.

They aren't tanks bud.

Chrlynsch

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Werewolves are not tanks, ZOS said it themselves

Well... actually they are kinda both DPS & Tank...
The developer comment says that they want Pack Leader to be a utility / support morph, while Werewolf Berserker is supposed to raw DMG / DPS morph.

The problem is though Pack Leader on PTS does not offer ANY useful or relevant utility, and it loses A LOT of dps and is way behind Werewolf Berserker. Simply speaking, the current Pack Leader does not have a purpose.

To me it looks like some form of internal miss-communication at ZOS, so they said it is going to provide utility, but they forgot to add tools that will give this utility.

Zos has literally taken the stance that werewolf isn't a tank.

cheifsoap

Is there anyone actively testing WW on PTS atm?

Chrlynsch

cheifsoap wrote: »

Is there anyone actively testing WW on PTS atm?

Questions do you have?

cheifsoap

Chrlynsch wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

Is there anyone actively testing WW on PTS atm?

Questions do you have?

How do they currently look in BGs?
How do they currently look in Cyrodiil?
How do they currently look in vMA?

Thank you so much in advance

Chrlynsch

How do they currently look in BGs?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Pen to armor ratio is lower in no CP, expect mixed results in bleed damage both offensive and defensive.
-Higher Crit chances will help with heal, MA is a contender now.

How do they currently look in Cyrodiil?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Investing heavily into penetration will help with overall damage

How do they currently look in vMA?
-Pen is your friend.
-lack of direwolves wont make it as easy as before.
-Build survival through increased mag regen, or other means



Edit: formatting

Jager_The_Werewolf

The changes would not be so bad except for the heal. The damage reduction is not the greatest, but can be worked around alittle. Pack Leader is pretty done. Im not upset by it because I Like berserker better but I feel for the pack leaders out there.

These changes would most likely be ok if they changed the heal to stamina. The nerf compares nothing to vigor. Vigor is so strong and they said it was to make it more in line with stamina classes. That is not the case though, the change would be more accepted if they changed the cost to use stamina.

Im hoping they do alittle bit more work to the WW. If they leave it this way, im not sure WW will be do able. This is one of the few games that offers this kind of experience, And the fact there making it so much harder to play... makes me rather sad and disappointed..

This is my first post on the forum, but have been playing for about 3 years. I joined to express my feelings and opinions towards this rather rough change to WW. I hope Zenimax/ Developers/ Class reps think this over and maybe see some of the changes there making here and see the hard place there putting ww. The WW has a large following and community in there game. This hurts the WW a lot.

FenrisWolf1136

Jager_The_Werewolf wrote: »

The changes would not be so bad except for the heal. The damage reduction is not the greatest, but can be worked around alittle. Pack Leader is pretty done. Im not upset by it because I Like berserker better but I feel for the pack leaders out there.

These changes would most likely be ok if they changed the heal to stamina. The nerf compares nothing to vigor. Vigor is so strong and they said it was to make it more in line with stamina classes. That is not the case though, the change would be more accepted if they changed the cost to use stamina.

Im hoping they do alittle bit more work to the WW. If they leave it this way, im not sure WW will be do able. This is one of the few games that offers this kind of experience, And the fact there making it so much harder to play... makes me rather sad and disappointed..

This is my first post on the forum, but have been playing for about 3 years. I joined to express my feelings and opinions towards this rather rough change to WW. I hope Zenimax/ Developers/ Class reps think this over and maybe see some of the changes there making here and see the hard place there putting ww. The WW has a large following and community in there game. This hurts the WW a lot.

Kind of agree. I didn't really start posting until I saw these changes. I can get by if I create a new character that's an orc stamsorc. But my current character (my main and achievements character) won't be allowed to run with my trials guild anymore. Dropped around 20k dps. Have run many tests with a ton of different setups and can't even get close to where I was. Hoping they revert these changes for now and find a better balance that doesn't run them straight into the ground.

Chrlynsch

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

Jager_The_Werewolf wrote: »

The changes would not be so bad except for the heal. The damage reduction is not the greatest, but can be worked around alittle. Pack Leader is pretty done. Im not upset by it because I Like berserker better but I feel for the pack leaders out there.

These changes would most likely be ok if they changed the heal to stamina. The nerf compares nothing to vigor. Vigor is so strong and they said it was to make it more in line with stamina classes. That is not the case though, the change would be more accepted if they changed the cost to use stamina.

Im hoping they do alittle bit more work to the WW. If they leave it this way, im not sure WW will be do able. This is one of the few games that offers this kind of experience, And the fact there making it so much harder to play... makes me rather sad and disappointed..

This is my first post on the forum, but have been playing for about 3 years. I joined to express my feelings and opinions towards this rather rough change to WW. I hope Zenimax/ Developers/ Class reps think this over and maybe see some of the changes there making here and see the hard place there putting ww. The WW has a large following and community in there game. This hurts the WW a lot.

Kind of agree. I didn't really start posting until I saw these changes. I can get by if I create a new character that's an orc stamsorc. But my current character (my main and achievements character) won't be allowed to run with my trials guild anymore. Dropped around 20k dps. Have run many tests with a ton of different setups and can't even get close to where I was. Hoping they revert these changes for now and find a better balance that doesn't run them straight into the ground.

Why is your main? How much dps do you pull currently self buffed on a 6 mil? How much dps do you pull on pts?

FenrisWolf1136

Main is a nord stamdk.

21m Trial dummy
75k - 80k average live
55k - 60k average pts

6m dummy
45k average live
38k average pts

If I swap to an orc stamsorc though, I got 75k average again on pts with the help you provided earlier. If you test and find different findings I would love some feedback.

templesus

Changes made were well thought out and long overdue. Great work ZOS.

Chrlynsch

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

Main is a nord stamdk.

21m Trial dummy
75k - 80k average live
55k - 60k average pts

6m dummy
45k average live
38k average pts

If I swap to an orc stamsorc though, I got 75k average again on pts with the help you provided earlier. If you test and find different findings I would love some feedback.

I'll hop on pts tonight and see what I can tweek for the Nord Dk Werewolf.

FenrisWolf1136

Chrlynsch wrote: »

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

Main is a nord stamdk.

21m Trial dummy
75k - 80k average live
55k - 60k average pts

6m dummy
45k average live
38k average pts

If I swap to an orc stamsorc though, I got 75k average again on pts with the help you provided earlier. If you test and find different findings I would love some feedback.

I'll hop on pts tonight and see what I can tweek for the Nord Dk Werewolf.

Awesome! Much appreciated!

BattleAxe

4 proposal change for ww:

Firstly change functionality of the direwolves summoned by the pack leader first wolf now has a healing aura healing fellow werewolves within 10 meters second wolf now applies a debuff that puts minor and major fracture on enemies within 10 meters 3rd give pack leader a 10meter aura gives buffs to fellow werewolves and taunts enemies within radius.

Secondly(4th change)
Remove the cap on call of the pack

Jager_The_Werewolf

BattleAxe wrote: »

4 proposal change for ww:

Firstly change functionality of the direwolves summoned by the pack leader first wolf now has a healing aura healing fellow werewolves within 10 meters second wolf now applies a debuff that puts minor and major fracture on enemies within 10 meters 3rd give pack leader a 10meter aura gives buffs to fellow werewolves and taunts enemies within radius.

Secondly(4th change)
Remove the cap on call of the pack

Aura taunt is too strong This has been talked about before on here. Maybe make a morph of HoA a ranged taunt. That wouldn't be bad. And these are only for Pack leader. Berserker needs love too


Removing Cap on call of the pack does nothing for solo or small group wolves. Not a bad one but dosent do anything for solo or group.


I would like to see maybe a Smaller Aoe howl heal for group wolf play, and a single target large heal for solo play. Both should use Stam imo Think that would be the only ok way to go with the new changes.

Chrlynsch

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »

Main is a nord stamdk.

21m Trial dummy
75k - 80k average live
55k - 60k average pts

6m dummy
45k average live
38k average pts

If I swap to an orc stamsorc though, I got 75k average again on pts with the help you provided earlier. If you test and find different findings I would love some feedback.

I'll hop on pts tonight and see what I can tweek for the Nord Dk Werewolf.

Awesome! Much appreciated!

@FenrisWolf1136

Here is the 6 mil dummy




And the Iron






Here are some changes for the DK

-CP distribution shown on superstar
-Double dot poisons (increased poison status effect/ regen)
-Max health/max food
-Main Hand nirn, off hand sharp

BattleAxe

Jager_The_Werewolf wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

4 proposal change for ww:

Firstly change functionality of the direwolves summoned by the pack leader first wolf now has a healing aura healing fellow werewolves within 10 meters second wolf now applies a debuff that puts minor and major fracture on enemies within 10 meters 3rd give pack leader a 10meter aura gives buffs to fellow werewolves and taunts enemies within radius.

Secondly(4th change)
Remove the cap on call of the pack

Aura taunt is too strong This has been talked about before on here. Maybe make a morph of HoA a ranged taunt. That wouldn't be bad. And these are only for Pack leader. Berserker needs love too


Removing Cap on call of the pack does nothing for solo or small group wolves. Not a bad one but dosent do anything for solo or group.


I would like to see maybe a Smaller Aoe howl heal for group wolf play, and a single target large heal for solo play. Both should use Stam imo Think that would be the only ok way to go with the new changes.

Yes the changes I proposed are for pack leader a morph that with current changes in mind is gonna become unused but my proposal would mostly benefit decent sized groups and effectively allow for a 12 man ww trial group. The aura taunt isn’t to overpowered considering its 10meter range can be smaller if it is to strong but it plays on the idea that a pack of wolves will group onto enemies and if 2 tanks and healers use this morph effectively overlapping taunt auras can add a taunt negate effect. Now for the ww berserker my proposal on the pack leader aura that has a taunt I stated it can have additional buffs it applies I didn’t say any specifically as this would allow for testing what would be optimal or what would be overkill. Berserker I left alone mainly out of first if my proposal is tested may bring ww berserker up to snuff so to speak.

Back to the aura taunt possibly being too strong keep in mind it is only way pack leader will have to grab Agro due to only having ww abilities replace what tanks would normally do. Also with the proposal changing at least 1 wolf to be an aura heal healers would slot this as well which can cause some issues in trial content. For solo and small group content and pvp pack leader will still be the less desired morph now but will see use in groups who are running an all ww group.

templesus

WW on PTS is more balanced then it’s been in awhile. No further changes needed.

jediodyn_ESO

templesus wrote: »

WW on PTS is more balanced then it’s been in awhile. No further changes needed.

You come to every WW post with this same opinion, posting multiple times without explaining why you think the changes are fair or good (they aren’t, for the reasons that those of us who enjoy this feature of the game have explained in detail along with our efforts to actually test the patch on PTS)

[Edit to remove bait]

templesus

Point blank WW isn’t a class. If it were a class you’d be able to select it at the character screen. It should be a short ultimate with niche use, nothing more nothing less.

The current iteration of it on PTS is perfect. Nerfs were justified and well thought out. Again good work ZOS and Gilliam.

Also, anyone who thinks that console users don’t have access to PTS in 2019 really need to get with the times. You can find me in stormhaven testing various setups in duels or in my house setup DPS parsing on the raid dummy.

So yeah, I can comment on PTS matters, probably much more then most people in this thread.

Tommy_The_Gun

BattleAxe wrote: »

Back to the aura taunt possibly being too strong keep in mind it is only way pack leader will have to grab Agro due to only having ww abilities replace what tanks would normally do. Also with the proposal changing at least 1 wolf to be an aura heal healers would slot this as well which can cause some issues in trial content. For solo and small group content and pvp pack leader will still be the less desired morph now but will see use in groups who are running an all ww group.

How about, instead of taunt aura, to simply add a taunt on Pack Leader heavy attacks ?
The "aura" could provide for example block cost % reduction, for every enemy near you, stackig up to X %. Or alternatively, it could be tied to pets somehow (for every enemy damaged by pets, you get X % block cost reduction for X seconds, stacking up to X %).

Jaraal

Sounds like somebody is salty that they couldn't figure out how to counter a well played werewolf.


Of course, all comments are welcome. Nothing wrong with people learning how effective Lycanthropy can be.

Wuuffyy

Jaraal wrote: »

Sounds like somebody is salty that they couldn't figure out how to counter a well played werewolf.


Of course, all comments are welcome. Nothing wrong with people learning how effective Lycanthropy can be.

Agreed.

jediodyn_ESO

templesus wrote: »

Point blank WW isn’t a class. If it were a class you’d be able to select it at the character screen. It should be a short ultimate with niche use, nothing more nothing less.

The current iteration of it on PTS is perfect. Nerfs were justified and well thought out. Again good work ZOS and Gilliam.

Also, anyone who thinks that console users don’t have access to PTS in 2019 really need to get with the times. You can find me in stormhaven testing various setups in duels or in my house setup DPS parsing on the raid dummy.

So yeah, I can comment on PTS matters, probably much more then most people in this thread.

Thank you for finally giving some introspection regarding you point of view.

The problem with the point you are making is that werewolf is NOT a “short ultimate” and trying to use it that way is much less effective (both PvE & PvP) than using another ultimate, also without requiring you to give up your skill bars, skill bonuses, & weapon bonuses.

These changes do not bring back the “niche” “burst werewolf” that you are describing not do make werewolves fun to play, because they have become so much weaker than any decent class build.

By your own reasoning of what this skill line should do, the devs (and @Gilliam) did not do a “good job” because they didn’t create a viable “niche” function for WW with these changes, they just destroyed the skill line so that nobody will play it.

In what situation is it worth it to build for and use WW now over a dps, support, or defensive ult? Please tell us, because after this patch I can’t think of one.

How have you been testing werewolves on PTS? You say that you spend your time in “stormhaven dueling” so let’s meet up and do some testing. You can duel any or all of my other class builds on PTS as whatever WW build you’ve come up with that you think is actually good now and deserving of praise you’re giving here for these changes that the rest of us are finding abysmal.

I mean, that is if you’re here giving feedback on the PTS server in a thread where you’ve been actually testing the content we’re discussing...

cheifsoap

Chrlynsch wrote: »

How do they currently look in BGs?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Pen to armor ratio is lower in no CP, expect mixed results in bleed damage both offensive and defensive.
-Higher Crit chances will help with heal, MA is a contender now.

How do they currently look in Cyrodiil?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Investing heavily into penetration will help with overall damage

How do they currently look in vMA?
-Pen is your friend.
-lack of direwolves wont make it as easy as before.
-Build survival through increased mag regen, or other means



Edit: formatting

Thanks for the advice but how were they performing against the everyone else? How successful were you in BGs, Cyrodiil, and vMA? Relative to other classes? I'm looking for actual hands-on experience on PTS, if I was PC; id do it myself.

Chrlynsch

cheifsoap wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

How do they currently look in BGs?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Pen to armor ratio is lower in no CP, expect mixed results in bleed damage both offensive and defensive.
-Higher Crit chances will help with heal, MA is a contender now.

How do they currently look in Cyrodiil?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Investing heavily into penetration will help with overall damage

How do they currently look in vMA?
-Pen is your friend.
-lack of direwolves wont make it as easy as before.
-Build survival through increased mag regen, or other means



Edit: formatting

Thanks for the advice but how were they performing against the everyone else? How successful were you in BGs, Cyrodiil, and vMA? Relative to other classes? I'm looking for actual hands-on experience on PTS, if I was PC; id do it myself.

No you wouldn't, BGs don't pop, and Cyrodiil is a barren wasteland. The closest thing you can get is a duel. Which as we know isn't open world or BG.

Now for VMA I did a no death run. In 50 minutes.

cheifsoap

Chrlynsch wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

How do they currently look in BGs?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Pen to armor ratio is lower in no CP, expect mixed results in bleed damage both offensive and defensive.
-Higher Crit chances will help with heal, MA is a contender now.

How do they currently look in Cyrodiil?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Investing heavily into penetration will help with overall damage

How do they currently look in vMA?
-Pen is your friend.
-lack of direwolves wont make it as easy as before.
-Build survival through increased mag regen, or other means



Edit: formatting

Thanks for the advice but how were they performing against the everyone else? How successful were you in BGs, Cyrodiil, and vMA? Relative to other classes? I'm looking for actual hands-on experience on PTS, if I was PC; id do it myself.

No you wouldn't, BGs don't pop, and Cyrodiil is a barren wasteland. The closest thing you can get is a duel. Which as we know isn't open world or BG.

Now for VMA I did a no death run. In 50 minutes.

RE: vMA awesome!

RE: pvp - sounds like we need more people who pvp to get PTS and do stuff

Qbiken

cheifsoap wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

How do they currently look in BGs?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Pen to armor ratio is lower in no CP, expect mixed results in bleed damage both offensive and defensive.
-Higher Crit chances will help with heal, MA is a contender now.

How do they currently look in Cyrodiil?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Investing heavily into penetration will help with overall damage

How do they currently look in vMA?
-Pen is your friend.
-lack of direwolves wont make it as easy as before.
-Build survival through increased mag regen, or other means



Edit: formatting

Thanks for the advice but how were they performing against the everyone else? How successful were you in BGs, Cyrodiil, and vMA? Relative to other classes? I'm looking for actual hands-on experience on PTS, if I was PC; id do it myself.

No you wouldn't, BGs don't pop, and Cyrodiil is a barren wasteland. The closest thing you can get is a duel. Which as we know isn't open world or BG.

Now for VMA I did a no death run. In 50 minutes.

RE: vMA awesome!

RE: pvp - sounds like we need more people who pvp to get PTS and do stuff

I can update you on the PvP aspect (note that I´ve only been doing duels on PTS)

The increased cost of the heal is completely un-sustainable. I even took things overboard and invested heavily into magregen (2k+ magrecovery) and max magicka (16k+ max magicka) to see if the new heal was sustainable. And note that this is in a duel, where you only have to worry about the pressure from one opponent. Conclusion:

THE HEAL IS TOO EXPENSIVE

If anyone un-ironically think this change is good, ask yourself this:

When was the last time you had to invest 2k+ stamregen and a 17k+ stamina pool as a magicka character, in order to be viable in PvP? We all know the answer to that question......

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_Gilliam

Revert the change of the heal when it comes to the increased magicka cost. If it´s not even sustainable in a 1v1 situation, imagine how bad it will be in PvP if you´re even the slightest outnumbered.....

Jager_The_Werewolf

Qbiken wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

How do they currently look in BGs?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Pen to armor ratio is lower in no CP, expect mixed results in bleed damage both offensive and defensive.
-Higher Crit chances will help with heal, MA is a contender now.

How do they currently look in Cyrodiil?

-Expect to invest heavily into mag regen in order to survive.
-Investing heavily into penetration will help with overall damage

How do they currently look in vMA?
-Pen is your friend.
-lack of direwolves wont make it as easy as before.
-Build survival through increased mag regen, or other means



Edit: formatting

Thanks for the advice but how were they performing against the everyone else? How successful were you in BGs, Cyrodiil, and vMA? Relative to other classes? I'm looking for actual hands-on experience on PTS, if I was PC; id do it myself.

No you wouldn't, BGs don't pop, and Cyrodiil is a barren wasteland. The closest thing you can get is a duel. Which as we know isn't open world or BG.

Now for VMA I did a no death run. In 50 minutes.

RE: vMA awesome!

RE: pvp - sounds like we need more people who pvp to get PTS and do stuff

I can update you on the PvP aspect (note that I´ve only been doing duels on PTS)

The increased cost of the heal is completely un-sustainable. I even took things overboard and invested heavily into magregen (2k+ magrecovery) and max magicka (16k+ max magicka) to see if the new heal was sustainable. And note that this is in a duel, where you only have to worry about the pressure from one opponent. Conclusion:

THE HEAL IS TOO EXPENSIVE

If anyone un-ironically think this change is good, ask yourself this:

When was the last time you had to invest 2k+ stamregen and a 17k+ stamina pool as a magicka character, in order to be viable in PvP? We all know the answer to that question......

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_Gilliam

Revert the change of the heal when it comes to the increased magicka cost. If it´s not even sustainable in a 1v1 situation, imagine how bad it will be in PvP if you´re even the slightest outnumbered.....

Or make the heal cost stamina and make the roar (The Fear) Cost Magicka. Really, How is this not a thing?


@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_Gilliam

usmcjdking

templesus wrote: »

WW is more on the balanced side now. Refs were just. Good job ZOS and Gilliam.

Nah, it's pretty garbage - there is almost no reason to use it outside of "it's cool to play" scenario.