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Shock Clench should keep its stun

Muskrap
Muskrap
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Heading right into things.

Besides the total damage nerf on shock clench its too much of a quintessential skill for classes to have. Its beyond the fact that its a spammable with Master's Lightning but its a completely necessary stun for Magden and Magcro

the 8% additional AoE damage is what allows both classes to do damage

But if you want a stun wouldnt you sacrifice the damage? You ask.

Yes of course i would sacrifice some more damage for the stun, the problem is swapping to an inferno staff means my stun is a knockback along with taking the 8% damage reduction

Now a knockback is a stun

Problem is that with the additional knockback its very easy to knock someone out of your Deep Fissure, Sleet storm, Frozen Colossus etc.

Now looking at it with the stun option we have is a 15m range, that had 17% of its damage nerfed, dot removed, and with a knockback of 6m it throws them out of your other damage

And at 15m you are close to being within melee range anyways

Such brings me back to Shock Clench, with the stun as it works right now it at least holds characters down so to not knock you out of the above abilities.

This is essential considering these classes other stun options

Artic Blast is a 4k+ stun that doesnt do additional damage, has a laggy animation, Heals off percentage of max health and is blockable/dodgeable

Fear Totem is a static AoE stun that fires after 2s that is unblockable and undodgeable.

both of these abilities cannot be weaved into damage combos easily because of the problems above.


Both of these classes were hit the hardest with the audit.
Both of these classes are not viable for PvP with shock clench gone
Both of these classes are practically unplayable because of the generalized treatment of their abilities without someone viewing into the classes for context
Both of these classes deserve a chance to be played in the future

Dont change shock clench
  • LeHarrt91
    LeHarrt91
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    I agree that clench should be reverted but i would also be ok with the initial damage nerf to stay, due to master staff as stated above.
    PS4 NA 1100+ CP
    Have played all classes.
    Warden Main
  • SubtleHate
    SubtleHate
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    upvote and agree


  • TheRealSniker
    TheRealSniker
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    Updoot
    Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw7P4J2R8gaKQZyWrpOe-og
    PC EU - TheRealSniker - The Sniker
    Stamina Nightblade Main - Playing since March 2017
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  • Lord_Eomer
    Lord_Eomer
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    I am happy with new changes, use fire staff for CC instead of Shock
  • WrathOfInnos
    WrathOfInnos
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    Shock clench should keep the stun, I agree. Clench seems to be the PVP morph now, and doesn't really need the splash damage, but the stun is crucial. If anything the splash should go to Reach, which is now a PVE DoT with no CC, and without splash there's no reason to ever use Shock Reach over Flame Reach.

    The only downside to that plan is that the PVP morph (Clench) is going to be a pain to use in Cyrodiil with the 15m range. That seems to be intended though, since other PVP stuns, petrify and scatter shot, also received a range reduction. At least the PVE DPS won't need to be close to use their new morph (not that this was ever much of a problem since it was close to the range of Wall anyway).
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • LeHarrt91
    LeHarrt91
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    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.
    PS4 NA 1100+ CP
    Have played all classes.
    Warden Main
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.

    But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.

    I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.

    Why not fight for better class stuns, instead? Much better inventment of time and energy.
    Edited by Mojomonkeyman on July 12, 2019 7:00AM
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • LeHarrt91
    LeHarrt91
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    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.

    But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.

    I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.

    Even without the masters staff, the stun on shock clench was important to those who built for aoe, and the shock stun didnt sometimes knock the target out of range of your other skills.
    I understand what your getting at and we do need class stun improvements but it added another element of gameplay style.
    PS4 NA 1100+ CP
    Have played all classes.
    Warden Main
  • TheRealPotoroo
    TheRealPotoroo
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    Lord_Eomer wrote: »
    I am happy with new changes, use fire staff for CC instead of Shock

    I don't want to use fire, I choose to use shock because it's generally better for soloing mobs.
    PC NA, PC EU
  • frostz417
    frostz417
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    Lord_Eomer wrote: »
    I am happy with new changes, use fire staff for CC instead of Shock

    That’s a ridiculous comment. These classes lost a reliable stun and now are forced to used flame staff to lose even more damage since they’re mostly AOE based and not to mention flame staff is heavily unreliable.
    Knocks people out of your shalks, sleet storm, and colossus.
    They need a reliable stun. Not some inconsistent knock back that messes up their burst and makes them lose even more damage than they already are.
    Smh
  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
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    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.

    But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.

    I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.

    Why not fight for better class stuns, instead? Much better inventment of time and energy.

    Because this is right in front of us right now. Additionally with how magden is designed you are far too buff intensive to have room for multiple different abilities. That werent buffs
  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
    ✭✭✭
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.

    But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.

    I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.

    Even without the masters staff, the stun on shock clench was important to those who built for aoe, and the shock stun didnt sometimes knock the target out of range of your other skills.
    I understand what your getting at and we do need class stun improvements but it added another element of gameplay style.

    But that element of gameplaystyle (no matter from what angle I'm looking at it, eso pvp or within general established pvp frameworks a cross various games I played) was actively promoting bad (brainless) gameplay. A clench spammer would not stop spamming clench, cc immunity up or not. It rendered proper timings irrelevant.

    Contrary to all other old- and newschool stuns (frag, streak, fear, toppling, petrify, fissure, etc) which get/got more useful the better you timed them. Clench spam (esp with master staff) was a very poorly thought out outlier - and I am glad its gone for that reason mostly.

    Removal of this option without giving us sufficient viable alternatives is the problem.
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    Muskrap wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.

    But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.

    I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.

    Why not fight for better class stuns, instead? Much better inventment of time and energy.

    Because this is right in front of us right now. Additionally with how magden is designed you are far too buff intensive to have room for multiple different abilities. That werent buffs

    I agree, Mag Warden (and Mag Necros) needs a stun attached to a value skill (like streak or toppling cc being attached to mobility) offering control but being restricted in its "spammability" for exactly the reason you have provided: the setup being already very micromanagement (you have to click, rotate and aim a lot compared to other classes) intensive.
    Edited by Mojomonkeyman on July 12, 2019 12:44PM
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    Muskrap wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.

    But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.

    I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.

    Even without the masters staff, the stun on shock clench was important to those who built for aoe, and the shock stun didnt sometimes knock the target out of range of your other skills.
    I understand what your getting at and we do need class stun improvements but it added another element of gameplay style.

    But that element of gameplaystyle (no matter from what angle I'm looking at it, eso pvp or within general established pvp frameworks a cross various games I played) was actively promoting bad (brainless) gameplay. A clench spammer would not stop spamming clench, cc immunity up or not. It rendered proper timings irrelevant.

    Contrary to all other old- and newschool stuns (frag, streak, fear, toppling, petrify, fissure, etc) which get/got more useful the better you timed them. Clench spam (esp with master staff) was a very poorly thought out outlier - and I am glad its gone for that reason mostly.

    Removal of this option without giving us sufficient viable alternatives is the problem.

    Agreed, but maybe we can focus now on demanding what we deserve instead of having to work with bandaids promoting terrible gameplay.
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
    ✭✭✭
    Muskrap wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.

    But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.

    I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.

    Even without the masters staff, the stun on shock clench was important to those who built for aoe, and the shock stun didnt sometimes knock the target out of range of your other skills.
    I understand what your getting at and we do need class stun improvements but it added another element of gameplay style.

    But that element of gameplaystyle (no matter from what angle I'm looking at it, eso pvp or within general established pvp frameworks a cross various games I played) was actively promoting bad (brainless) gameplay. A clench spammer would not stop spamming clench, cc immunity up or not. It rendered proper timings irrelevant.

    Contrary to all other old- and newschool stuns (frag, streak, fear, toppling, petrify, fissure, etc) which get/got more useful the better you timed them. Clench spam (esp with master staff) was a very poorly thought out outlier - and I am glad its gone for that reason mostly.

    Removal of this option without giving us sufficient viable alternatives is the problem.

    Agreed, but maybe we can focus now on demanding what we deserve instead of having to work with bandaids promoting terrible gameplay.

    Thats fine, but i can't play either class next patch if they decide to go through with this. Alot of people cant. Id like to see the class stay playable before starting to argue over class stuns
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    Muskrap wrote: »
    Muskrap wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    LeHarrt91 wrote: »
    I am more than happy with those changes as a pvp exclusive magicka warden and magicka necro main. What those classes need is good class stuns, not a generic spammable stun enforcing and therefore limiting build choice.

    While i agree those classes do need good stuns, neither of them were given such in this patch and only had one of the few options they did have, taken away.

    But we had the situation where 90%+ of affected players (based on observation and builds advertized on various platforms) where going for the meta option for two years now - claiming to not use it would kill the class(es). And yet I play without it on said classes for the same period of time now, top MMR BGs and solo/smallgrp Cyro - probably more successful than people crutching on master clench.

    I came to the conclusion that most eso players 1) are super lazy 2) super uninformed 3) unable to alter their playstyle. I'd love if that change would make people actually think again when building their chars and not go for the infamous spam stun/dmg + delayed burst 2-button playstyle, claiming the class would be unplayable if thats not possible anymore.

    Even without the masters staff, the stun on shock clench was important to those who built for aoe, and the shock stun didnt sometimes knock the target out of range of your other skills.
    I understand what your getting at and we do need class stun improvements but it added another element of gameplay style.

    But that element of gameplaystyle (no matter from what angle I'm looking at it, eso pvp or within general established pvp frameworks a cross various games I played) was actively promoting bad (brainless) gameplay. A clench spammer would not stop spamming clench, cc immunity up or not. It rendered proper timings irrelevant.

    Contrary to all other old- and newschool stuns (frag, streak, fear, toppling, petrify, fissure, etc) which get/got more useful the better you timed them. Clench spam (esp with master staff) was a very poorly thought out outlier - and I am glad its gone for that reason mostly.

    Removal of this option without giving us sufficient viable alternatives is the problem.

    Agreed, but maybe we can focus now on demanding what we deserve instead of having to work with bandaids promoting terrible gameplay.

    Thats fine, but i can't play either class next patch if they decide to go through with this. Alot of people cant. Id like to see the class stay playable before starting to argue over class stuns

    Thats the point where we diagree with each other, it seems. I never relied on clench on both MagNecro and MagWarden and claim that alternative playstyles not only exist but are indeed viable for most content.

    The only scenario where I am 100% that clench was needed, is duels. You wont win duels on top level without an on demand instant stun, period. I personally don't value duels very much since the removal of softcaps anyways, so I think the hopefully temporary loss of proper tools within this single scenario is still a net win IF we get better future class stuns.

    You are still able to win a lot of 1v1s in BGs and Cyro without clench tho, not being tied to duel rules & environment.
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
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    The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    Muskrap wrote: »
    The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue

    I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.

    So yeah, I have to disagree. Not on the fact that a proper cc would be much, much better, but on your claim that alternative playstyles are DOA.
    Edited by Mojomonkeyman on July 12, 2019 1:08PM
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • sankarul
    sankarul
    Soul Shriven
    Of course you'll be able to beat up your average player with a good build that lacks a stun. But if you run into anyone with a good build AND a stun, and a clue on how to play, they won't die unless you have a proper hard CC for draining their resources.

    Templar's had the issue too, and I think it might remain. Sure, eclipse and its morphs are getting quite powerful, but they won't do anything once a person starts just spamming heals. Javelin's an okay option, but it knocks people back when you wanna be up in their face, jabbing away. Shock clench was just the most convenient option, and I'd still use it even if it lost a lot of damage.
  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
    ✭✭✭
    Muskrap wrote: »
    The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue

    I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.

    So yeah, I have to disagree.

    For one bringing high MMR BGs is cringe and useless since im high MMR as well, for two it's entirely necessary in PC NA open world facing decent players.for three open world is a bunch of potatoes that get caught dying to a stamplar build with elusive mist and no vigor. Of course youre going to get kills that way. Dense
  • Mojomonkeyman
    Mojomonkeyman
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    Muskrap wrote: »
    Muskrap wrote: »
    The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue

    I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.

    So yeah, I have to disagree.

    For one bringing high MMR BGs is cringe and useless since im high MMR as well, for two it's entirely necessary in PC NA open world facing decent players.for three open world is a bunch of potatoes that get caught dying to a stamplar build with elusive mist and no vigor. Of course youre going to get kills that way. Dense

    I was bringing up all pvp scenarios where skill matters that I could think outside of zerging and giving my fair opinion on it. Not trying to hide that people valueing duels as indicator of balance (what I personally consider even more "cringe" and "dense") will have a rough time on their Magicka Wardens and Necros (Necros even moreso) in the upcoming patch if they dont change up their mindset and builds.

    No reason to get offensive just because you gonna lose your spammy playstyle. I tried to be very reasonable and constructive in my previous posts, you might want to focus your anger on the lack of good class stuns (dev job) instead?
    Edited by Mojomonkeyman on July 12, 2019 1:21PM
    Koma Grey, Chocolate Thunder, Little Mojo, Dagoth Mojo & Mojomancy
  • Insco851
    Insco851
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    Make artic blast usable? That’s about our only hope. It needs a damage component badly.
  • Muskrap
    Muskrap
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    Muskrap wrote: »
    Muskrap wrote: »
    The bigger your group size the less you need a stun. In solo and small scale as well as BGs and duels its absolutely necessary. Especially since out best alternative is what, vamp drain? I shouldnt have to explain why thats an issue

    I play on top MMR PC EU with 5 different characters, solo and premade. I play solo Cyro A LOT, two years on magicka warden and now 6 weeks on magicka necro - all of this not using clench a single minute of gameplay.

    So yeah, I have to disagree.

    For one bringing high MMR BGs is cringe and useless since im high MMR as well, for two it's entirely necessary in PC NA open world facing decent players.for three open world is a bunch of potatoes that get caught dying to a stamplar build with elusive mist and no vigor. Of course youre going to get kills that way. Dense

    I was bringing up all pvp scenarios where skill matters that I could think outside of zerging and giving my fair opinion on it. Not trying to hide that people valueing duels as indicator of balance (what I personally consider even more "cringe" and "dense") will have a rough time on their Magicka Wardens and Necros (Necros even moreso) in the upcoming patch if they dont change up their mindset and builds.

    No reason to get offensive just because you gonna lose your spammy playstyle.

    The only thing offensive here is your condescending attitude. I stand by what I said for the access to the stun being necessary.
  • Baphomet
    Baphomet
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    It must definately keep the stun!

    You balance items around abilities, not the other way around, @ZoS
    - The Psijic Order
    - TKO
    - Dominant Dominion
    - The Noore
  • Jimmy_The_Fixer
    Jimmy_The_Fixer
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    If Magdens want to stun people, they should just slot volcanic rune from the mages guild line, duh. Otherwise they should just hope that a kindly nightblade happens by and draining shots whoever they’re fighting.
  • Ivan04
    Ivan04
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    I'm here to agree, I only hope the devs are reading
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