Guild bid on up to 10 different Guild Trader locations each week with update 23

Pevey · July 2019

Trader bids that consist of the 3.5% take plus all donation, raffle tickets, auction proceeds, etc, are very conservative bids. Those are sustainable bids. Ghost guilds estimate that amount, and bid higher. And they know someone will pay it, because going without a trader for the week is painful. Officers come up with the gold on their own. And fees get raised to try to earn it back. Most trade guilds operate at a loss. This is also what tends to happen when another guild makes a play for a spot. Bids are raised to fend them off. That happens today, but not too often because of the risk inherent in making a play for someone else’s spot. They will not give it up easily. You have to be able to bid very high for at least 3-4 weeks, probably longer. And you risk not having a spot at all in the weeks where you lose if going head to head against another guild. People with experience in this system know that this sort of reaching for another spot will happen much more often now because there is little at risk for the challenger. There won’t just be the chance that someone is bidding against you. Someone will ALWAYS be bidding against you. Bids will go up. Get ready to pay more in dues.

Arrodisia · July 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

shells can outbid most if not all small- medium guilds. Thats every location that isnt grahtwood, mounhold or wayrest. some even can pill bids there. there will always be a demand for them as long as they are allowed to exist.

I don't worry too much about that. If things go as bad as you actually describe (which I'm not denying can happen), 2/3 of trader stalls will be empty with no listings and ZOS will have to do something about it (finally).

With all due respect, that is already the case on consoles(too many empty ghost guilds), and gaining popularity on PC. ZOS didn't do anything to fix it yet. So how can we be sure they'll ever fix it? They aren't even acknowledging the exploits, much less getting rid of them yet. I'm not saying they won't, but their lack of feedback isn't encouraging players to feel hopeful.

Best wishes

Urigall · July 2019

No idea about which guilds might - might - flip kiosks. However, there are at least two, empty kiosks that I have seen - no inventory, zip, nowt, nada.

What happened? Did two people (or maybe even the same person if they're a sucker for losing gold) buy those spots then decide to say "stuff it. Not worried about losing the money and pissing off at least 50 people by not trading"?

Or did another guild, or two guilds, buy those spots?

Just been in settlement "Somewhere" Five guilds. One is empty, one has no inventory newer than 29-day listings, two have 15-20, 30-day listings. The other one seems to be selling loads of goodies.

None of this proves anything. It does seem very...as in bizarroland...strange.

ezio45 · July 2019

reoskit wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

the problem is the big guilds are the ones selling stalls. everyone not selling stalls cant make those kinds of bids. this system feeds into that loop and makes the problem worse.

It may be important to specify which platform you're on when saying things like that. None of the large guilds I'm aware of on PCNA engage in such tactics.

It also seems to me that, if you're the sort of enterprise which makes money off of disbanding your guilds, you aren't the sort that also keeps a functioning guild running.

If I were to jump into ransoming kiosks, I'd:
Buy 50 accounts (on the legit, this costs $500 - probably way cheaper ways to get them)

Add all 50 accts to 5 guilds

Ensure I have startup cash to buy a kiosk/kiosks

Buy kiosk(s)

Ransom the kiosk for more than I paid to a guild that really wants it

Disband one of my guilds to free the slot to the ransomee

Rinse repeat for 4 more kiosks

Readd my 50 accts to 5 new guilds, and do this whole process again and again and againcan ...

Not to spell out how easy it is, but... that's how easy it is. It's gold selling via ransom. If you cut out the ability to free a kiosk by disbanding, you've completely killed this exploit.

Edit: typo

ps4 na,. If you have eso on console (might be only limited to disc copies? possibly not) all accounts on that console have free access to eso with your existing purchased copy. Meaning anyone willing to put in the effort can make unlimited eso accounts for free.

Also theirs groups of players doing this, mostly top trading guild gms and some officers. 5 players making 5 guilds each, thats 25 guild. By now they already have the accounts made. Its just readding them to a guild.

Ya, Start up for them was kinda slow. Use to be like 1 or 2 in like 1 city. Its been at least a year and half since Ive become aware of the problem though, probably has existed longer though. Now you can find 2-3 in every city right after flip. There is enough of them at this point where the "core" guild has enough money for there top tier spot bid and the shells and they just subtracting that cost from the earnings and pocketing the rest among the players that are involved in reforming the shells each week.

Not many guilds as of now could really break into this space for it. 2 alliances have a pretty good hold on the market. Pretty much in big part because people know by now who to message. So its not super easy to get established now but the ones that got in and are already established are making bidding very miserable for most guilds not in one of those groups.

ezio45 · July 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Big guilds selling stalls? You can document this postulate yes? Im a member of multiple of the largest trade guilds, none of these sells stalls, they need to get their main trader. If they were to sell stalls how would they get their main trader? Can yuo explain exactly how big guilds is selling stalls? Because I dont understand how that would work?

It works more or less like this : Guild A has 30millions. They use 15 millions for their main bid and create guild "G" (Ghost). They give guild G the remaining 15mio to bid on some other spot - which they win, too. Since they have no need for it, they look for a guild that lost their bid and resells them the second spot for 20mio (they free the spot simply by disbanding the "G" guild).

In the end they have their main trader spot AND 5mio benefit (to reinvest in next week's bidding).

I can't say if it's such a common practice as some people say it is, but in theory, that's how it works.

and then you have guild g1 g2 g g4 g5 thats 25m to reinvest into the system which is enough for the next guild g6. Granted it wasnt that smooth for them at the start but by now they have all their ghost guilds established, the funding to reinvest and into the system, to either pocket or try to bid up with the shell guilds.

reoskit · July 2019

Urigall wrote: »

Atm, there are two guilds with zero inventory for sale. Could be others.

If these were acquired through back up bids, they'd have been populated with items for sale. They are not.

Either someone though "nah, this trading lark is boring...not going to bother with it" or a guild that had already secured a spot bought a kiosk they didn't need for a back up. Latter answer is the more likely one. Maybe the buyer couldn't sell the second spots.

I thought the purpose of back up bids was to provide a fallback in the event that the main bid was unsuccessful.

There are multiple reasons for using a ghost/shell/backup/etc guild.

As a backup - Because you proactively want to ensure your trade guild has a spot to sell.
As an undo button - Stay with me on this one. If you are outbid, you have 5 minutes post-flip to *hire* an empty kiosk. Unfortunately, sometimes we accidentally click *bid* instead of *hire* which locks us into the wrong kiosk for the next week. If this happens, you can hope (or arrange) to be outbid. At the same time, you use a ghost guild to secure your normal kiosk. You can then disband your ghost and retake your kiosk with your normal guild which didn't win its bid.
As a revenue source - Because you're going to ransom the kiosk to someone who wants it.

... And then there's this weird other one. Using an empty guild, you can buy a kiosk in the same city as your guild. The theory is that it kills off sales competition. IMO, leaving a blank spot only disincentives shoppers to visit the city. Moreover, I cannot see how it is profitable to pay for another bid just to boost sales. But there you go.

Urigall, as you noted, the empties you're seeing could be unneeded backups (silly - they could still be selling), are unsold ransoms, or guilds attempting to boost sales by having empty neighboring kiosks. *shrug*

Dont_do_drugs · July 2019

It might depend on platform and trade activity. I can only talk for PC EU. In PC EU a hub with empty traders between good guilds can kill the whole hub for a week. I happened to experienced a 3/5 outbid in rawl 2years ago. Pure coincidence. 3 pve/social/jumper guilds had idea of Yolo same week. But not a lot zo sell. Just for the fun. The remaining 2 guilds had awesome booming sales tge first 2 days. The rest of the week the sales died away bcs everyone knew that rawl was a bad hub that week, so it wasn't worth the loading screen. The 2 remaining guilds had one of tge worst selling weeks that time aroundish in that specific week.

Urigall · July 2019

reoskit wrote: »

/snip

Interesting information resokit - thanks.

reoskit · July 2019

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

The rest of the week the sales died away bcs everyone knew that rawl was a bad hub that week, so it wasn't worth the loading screen. The 2 remaining guilds had one of tge worst selling weeks that time aroundish in that specific week.

Exactly. I think it's a stupid idea if profit is the goal.

I did leave out one other reason for taking a kiosk with a ghost guild...

Sometimes it's done as retribution, to kick a rival guild out of their spot... And that gives me seeeerious pause.

Right now, things are relatively civil on PCNA. The incoming fustercluck of guilds bidding on each others spots is going to create some ridiculously bad blood once we all start shifting around. Retribution is going to be the name of the game and it's going to get ugly.

Sigh. I absolutely do not look forward to any of this.

Edit - typo.

generalmyrick · July 2019

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

they don't want our crappy spots, they'll develop a thirsty way to get back on top! :-) be patient!

People do want your crappy spot. Every guild will be bidding x 10 across all spots, don't imagine that you have some sort of immunity. Also new jacks on the scene will be pitching across 10 crappy spots. If you want your crappy spot you can bet your bottom gold piece someone else will too.

Also rather than framing this issue into the single viewpoint of just your spot why not have a thought for everyone across the board, with the good spots and the crappy spots. Even if it does only affect the good spots, whats that 50% or 75% of spots?

Isn't that a bad thing?

i love this kinda thing right here... :-)

yes, im sure the old elitist trading guilds, who spend MILLIONS every week, are coming ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the way down to the old Sadrith Mora to kick me off my crappy spot. yes, you right. I can see this forum is way above my intelligence level.

i didn't say i had immunity! :-)

everybody, to my knowledge says they don't have the gold to bid across all 10 crappy spots? now we got "new jacks" (you craft those?) popping up like mushrooms to outbid everybody on the crappy spots? how many new jacks you estimate comin to old Panersewen in North Auridon?

They going to chase me to the Dune? Old mournhold mafia going to come all the way to dune to battle me over Uzarrur? I WILL STICK MY TONGUE IN THEIR EAR!!! I WILL OWN MOURNHOLD MAFIA IF THEY COME TO DUNE!!!!

wait wait wait, guilds that charge their people 15k a week, want my spot! ok, i concede you win.

as for the new jacks! lets do some math...this one likes math, there are over 200 guild kiosks, right?
i consider the crappy spots to number = i consider 33 spots out of my league and thus, not crappy, jack!

so, 167 spots! takes 167 guilds to win.

*WHISTLES!!!!*

i win my guild spots with 500k each week, all donations, however, i've run my guild like a corporation the past 3 years and we are sitting on a fat bankroll...we can match the 500k 10x each week...shoot, we can match up to 1.2 million every week and never go broke. i predict i will be bidding like 10x guilds on crappy spots, while the scenario you have so pointed out is a set of new jacks (will they even stick around? if they lose a bid here and there?) and crappy money will be my only adversary? <

because as you have read in this thread, the mid and small sized guilds cannot pull in the gold every week to bid their max bid on 10 spots!

i still standby that the "BID 10-15 MILLION EVERY WEEK GUILDS" do not want the crappy spots i go for and the small/mid guilds can't match my research and gold reserves...because i don't like the gold sink idea and have out thought it for years.
=======================
im sensitive, i took the whole "framing blah blah" mean and unnecessary. discussion is noble until some fool throws feces on it.

reoskit · July 2019

o.0

Arrodisia · July 2019

double

Arrodisia · July 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

I agree with that. The gold sink for vendors is already high. If they become higher small, medium and newer guilds won't be able to get vendors anymore. There is nothing fun about that.

Do you have any idea how offer and demand work ?
As long as there are more vendor spots than super-rich guilds, (which is the case) the lower- and middle-tier guilds will always get a spot at a price they can afford. Prices are self-adjusting.

With all due respect, I understand it well. There are more guilds than spots, which was how this whole exploiting theme came into play. Fake guilds are capitalizing on demand, due to the lack of kiosks available to accommodate each guild. That demand wouldn't be so high, if A. ) the exploit was removed and B.) if the system had more vendors added.

The population has increased. Guilds have also increased. New vendors are very few, and when the fake guilds came into play, the situation intensifies. Then we can add 10 x bidding, not just for legit guilds, but fake ones as well. Basically, these fake guilds will each have 10 chances to knock a legitimate guild out of their spot. ZOS not getting rid of the fake guilds, only encourages more to form. So, it's likely, more and more guilds will get knocked out.

When one or multiple of my guilds loses their higher end spots to some inflated bid from a real or fake guild, we'll be snapping up an alternate spot. Other GM's have stated the same. That loss makes us have to push someone else out of their spot. We don't want to have to snatch up another guild's spot, but we'll have to do it in order to keep our sales going. Any spot is better than no spot imho. It's just sad there aren't enough spots to go around, and exploits are even a thing in the trade system.

Best wishes

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2019

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

I agree with that. The gold sink for vendors is already high. If they become higher small, medium and newer guilds won't be able to get vendors anymore. There is nothing fun about that.

Do you have any idea how offer and demand work ?
As long as there are more vendor spots than super-rich guilds, (which is the case) the lower- and middle-tier guilds will always get a spot at a price they can afford. Prices are self-adjusting.

With all due respect, I understand it well. There are more guilds than spots, which was how this whole exploiting theme came into play. Fake guilds are capitalizing on demand, due to the lack of kiosks available to accommodate each guild. That demand wouldn't be so high, if A. ) the exploit was removed and B.) if the system had more vendors added. The population has increased. Guilds have also increased. New vendors are very few, and when the fake guilds came into play, the situation intensifies. Then we can add 10 x bidding not just for legit guilds, but fake ones as well. Basically, these fake guilds will each have 10 chances to knock a legitimate guild out of their spot. ZOS not getting rid of the fake guilds, only encourages more to form. So, it's likely, more and more guilds will get knocked out.

When one or multiple of my guilds loses their higher end spots to some inflated bid from a real or fake guild, we'll be snapping up an alternate spot. Other GM's have stated the same. That loss makes us have to push someone else out of their spot. We don't want to have to snatch up another guild's spot, but we'll have to do it in order to keep our sales going. Any spot is better than no spot imho. It's just sad there aren't enough spots to go around, and exploits are even a thing in the trade system.

Did you read what I wrote ?
There are more spots than super-rich guilds.
That means that the prices for lower-tier spots will not skyrocket above a point that smaller/poorer guilds are not able or ready to pay. And that will keep the prices reasonable, fake guilds or not.
Fake guils are capitalizing on demand, but that demand WILL BE LOWER thanks to the multibidding system.
Please stop the fake guild paranoia. I agree that they should be dealt with, but stop acting like there are 100s of them around.
In the game of musical chairs, no matter how long or quick the music goes, there's only one chair missing in the end.

generalmyrick · July 2019

@anitajoneb17_ESO would you agree that the only parties hurt in all of this are the ghost guilds?

Jayman1000 · July 2019

nvm

Jayman1000 · July 2019

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

I have a feeling about this,

Oh great, you have a feeling.

Meanwhile all of us GMs who have to manage the trade system are all in complete agreement that this will be a total sham.

My GM's in my trade guilds have the opposite opinion, this will work wonders for how safe you can be in the knowledge that you wont be without a trader. But yes, you have to actually use the opportunity that this new system presents to you. I have seen no compelling argument that in any way explains how this will be sham or the like.

u are aware that chances of getting a trader or getting no trader isnt changing in any ways, since the amount of traders is still the same and the same amount of guilds are getting outbid while the same amount of guilds are getting a trader? simple mathematics.

Again what you are describing here is simply less strong guilds losing bids because they are not strong enough. That's how competition works. The advantage is that guilds can now bid on multiple traders, so if they lose their main one, they will most likely get their backup, especially if the GM's just bid a little clever. This is a major advantage and lessens the risk of losing the trader a lot. I agree that if player population continues to rise and guilds become entirely full maybe zos would have to consider somehow adding more traders or similar. But currently there are plenty of free spots in so many many good trade guilds. Just check the guild finder and you'll see.

Errm Jay, the big guilds are just going to spread bids on weaker guilds mate. Bids are going to go up in price across the Board

Big guilds bids on weaker traders wont matter unless those big guilds actually lose their main trader. Which they usually don't. I don't see why this should cause higher bids across the board. What does increase the bids would be more trade guilds with more members, and if player population rises then I would expect bids to rise too as a result, just simple supply and demand mechanic at work there; and if the supply/demand ratio gets out of sync too much then yeah maybe ZOS would have to consider adding more traders or similar. but that's not where we are now. And it has nothing to do with the change to how many traders a guild can bid on.

the problem is the big guilds are the ones selling stalls. everyone not selling stalls cant make those kinds of bids. this system feeds into that loop and makes the problem worse.

Big guilds selling stalls? You can document this postulate yes? Im a member of multiple of the largest trade guilds, none of these sells stalls, they need to get their main trader. If they were to sell stalls how would they get their main trader? Can yuo explain exactly how big guilds is selling stalls? Because I dont understand how that would work?

I can explain it, and it has been mentioned in threads before. There are two ways to do it. A fake guild gets a vendor then disbands the guild after they receive payment for the spot, while the person they just sold it to waits at the spot to take the trader as he disbands. The second way is making the buyer into the guild master of the disposable fake guild, after the seller already got payment. So yes. It is very doable. No player, in their right mind, is going to film themselves exploiting the system for you, because they fear being made an example of afterwards.

That's not what I mean with documentation. I wasn't asking how to create a guild, bid on a trader, disband it after payment so the buyer can get it immediately. I was asking about documentation for blaming "Big guilds selling stalls".

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2019

generalmyrick wrote: »

@anitajoneb17_ESO would you agree that the only parties hurt in all of this are the ghost guilds?

I wouldn't say that.
I'd say that the market conditions will change drastically due to multibidding, and that will affect everyone (not necessarily negatively), fake guilds included. And more than anything, it will affect everyone's habits.

Nonetheless, I believe this will make the trader spots' market more open and more fluid, and overall better functioning, and a better functioning market is less vulnerable to exploiters such as ghost guilds' "ransomsales".

Arrodisia · July 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

I agree with that. The gold sink for vendors is already high. If they become higher small, medium and newer guilds won't be able to get vendors anymore. There is nothing fun about that.

Do you have any idea how offer and demand work ?
As long as there are more vendor spots than super-rich guilds, (which is the case) the lower- and middle-tier guilds will always get a spot at a price they can afford. Prices are self-adjusting.

With all due respect, I understand it well. There are more guilds than spots, which was how this whole exploiting theme came into play. Fake guilds are capitalizing on demand, due to the lack of kiosks available to accommodate each guild. That demand wouldn't be so high, if A. ) the exploit was removed and B.) if the system had more vendors added. The population has increased. Guilds have also increased. New vendors are very few, and when the fake guilds came into play, the situation intensifies. Then we can add 10 x bidding not just for legit guilds, but fake ones as well. Basically, these fake guilds will each have 10 chances to knock a legitimate guild out of their spot. ZOS not getting rid of the fake guilds, only encourages more to form. So, it's likely, more and more guilds will get knocked out.

When one or multiple of my guilds loses their higher end spots to some inflated bid from a real or fake guild, we'll be snapping up an alternate spot. Other GM's have stated the same. That loss makes us have to push someone else out of their spot. We don't want to have to snatch up another guild's spot, but we'll have to do it in order to keep our sales going. Any spot is better than no spot imho. It's just sad there aren't enough spots to go around, and exploits are even a thing in the trade system.

Did you read what I wrote ?
There are more spots than super-rich guilds.
That means that the prices for lower-tier spots will not skyrocket above a point that smaller/poorer guilds are not able or ready to pay. And that will keep the prices reasonable, fake guilds or not.
Fake guils are capitalizing on demand, but that demand WILL BE LOWER thanks to the multibidding system.
Please stop the fake guild paranoia. I agree that they should be dealt with, but stop acting like there are 100s of them around.
In the game of musical chairs, no matter how long or quick the music goes, there's only one chair missing in the end.

I read it. You don't know that there are more spots than super rich guilds, or even players. Please, supply these ratios of super rich guilds vs. vendors. So, we can all feel comforted. Let's not forget the individual players, who can buy guild spots with newly formed guilds, and use the guild finder tool each week as well.

Yes. The lower tier spots will skyrocket, because now other guilds from other areas will bid on them too, just to ensure they have no spot at all. That is, basically, what I just wrote above. Quibbling over 2 words doesn't change the whole picture. Those guilds will get forced out of the trade system. It isn't fair or fun for the guilds pushing them out, or for the guilds being pushed out.

You basically, contradicted yourself within your own statements, when you said please stop with the paranoid statements. Paranoia means the unreasonable fear or irrational belief that other people are plotting to harm him or her.
I never said anything unreasonable of the sort. These guilds do exist, and for multiple reasons. So being paranoid is far from the case here. I found it to be a very humorous attempt at baiting me though.

I, also, didn't say or act like hundreds exist. You don't know me to assume any of that either. Now, here's a thought to munch on today. For each one that does exist, another guild loses it's spot. So, how will the demand be lower? That would only be the case if A.) there were more vendors added, B.) the exploits were removed, and C.) smaller, midsized, and newer guilds could afford to also make multiple bids. As long as those 3 negatives are in play, the system will still be abused, and be unfair to some.

All the best

Arrodisia · July 2019

Jayman1000 wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

ezio45 wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

I have a feeling about this,

Oh great, you have a feeling.

Meanwhile all of us GMs who have to manage the trade system are all in complete agreement that this will be a total sham.

My GM's in my trade guilds have the opposite opinion, this will work wonders for how safe you can be in the knowledge that you wont be without a trader. But yes, you have to actually use the opportunity that this new system presents to you. I have seen no compelling argument that in any way explains how this will be sham or the like.

u are aware that chances of getting a trader or getting no trader isnt changing in any ways, since the amount of traders is still the same and the same amount of guilds are getting outbid while the same amount of guilds are getting a trader? simple mathematics.

Again what you are describing here is simply less strong guilds losing bids because they are not strong enough. That's how competition works. The advantage is that guilds can now bid on multiple traders, so if they lose their main one, they will most likely get their backup, especially if the GM's just bid a little clever. This is a major advantage and lessens the risk of losing the trader a lot. I agree that if player population continues to rise and guilds become entirely full maybe zos would have to consider somehow adding more traders or similar. But currently there are plenty of free spots in so many many good trade guilds. Just check the guild finder and you'll see.

Errm Jay, the big guilds are just going to spread bids on weaker guilds mate. Bids are going to go up in price across the Board

Big guilds bids on weaker traders wont matter unless those big guilds actually lose their main trader. Which they usually don't. I don't see why this should cause higher bids across the board. What does increase the bids would be more trade guilds with more members, and if player population rises then I would expect bids to rise too as a result, just simple supply and demand mechanic at work there; and if the supply/demand ratio gets out of sync too much then yeah maybe ZOS would have to consider adding more traders or similar. but that's not where we are now. And it has nothing to do with the change to how many traders a guild can bid on.

the problem is the big guilds are the ones selling stalls. everyone not selling stalls cant make those kinds of bids. this system feeds into that loop and makes the problem worse.

Big guilds selling stalls? You can document this postulate yes? Im a member of multiple of the largest trade guilds, none of these sells stalls, they need to get their main trader. If they were to sell stalls how would they get their main trader? Can yuo explain exactly how big guilds is selling stalls? Because I dont understand how that would work?

I can explain it, and it has been mentioned in threads before. There are two ways to do it. A fake guild gets a vendor then disbands the guild after they receive payment for the spot, while the person they just sold it to waits at the spot to take the trader as he disbands. The second way is making the buyer into the guild master of the disposable fake guild, after the seller already got payment. So yes. It is very doable. No player, in their right mind, is going to film themselves exploiting the system for you, because they fear being made an example of afterwards.

That's not what I mean with documentation. I wasn't asking how to create a guild, bid on a trader, disband it after payment so the buyer can get it immediately. I was asking about documentation for blaming "Big guilds selling stalls".

Same apples. No one is allowed to name and shame in the forums, and no one will publicly display he/she has manipulated the system to be counted up to satisfy your curiosity. I'm not coming at you. I'm just pointing out, why it would be unrealistic to ask for such a thing, no matter what the specific case is.

The players doing it, obviously, have a lot of money. I don't really care, who is doing it. I'd just like to see it stop, and turned into something more fun for everyone.

Cheers

Urigall · July 2019

Someone must be buying guild spots and leaving them empty. There are at least two this week - both in half decent spots at that. Seen the same thing many times before.

Who is buying them? I don't have a Scooby.

It's one of:

1. One or two guilds who bought a spot then decided trading was a daft idea.

2. One or two guilds who thought it would be a right old larf to shell out a fair bit of dosh then leave the inventories empty.

3. One or two guilds who bought kiosks then forgot about it the next day.

4. One or two guilds who wanted to play funny buggers for reasons unknown.

5. Gremlins messing with our heads.

Take your pick.

I have no idea WHO is doing this. That would require conjecture, so I'll stick to the facts as currently known. The fact is it's happening and has been for a long time.

Who or why? Any one of answers 1-5, as laid out above, is possible. Some of the answers are less convincing than others. My money is on the Gremlins, although I nearly went with answer number 3 - almost as plausible.

Dont_do_drugs · July 2019

Urigall wrote: »

Someone must be buying guild spots and leaving them empty. There are at least two this week - both in half decent spots at that. Seen the same thing many times before.

Who is buying them? I don't have a Scooby.

It's one of:

1. One or two guilds who bought a spot then decided trading was a daft idea.

2. One or two guilds who thought it would be a right old larf to shell out a fair bit of dosh then leave the inventories empty.

3. One or two guilds who bought kiosks then forgot about it the next day.

4. One or two guilds who wanted to play funny buggers for reasons unknown.

5. Gremlins messing with our heads.

Take your pick.

I have no idea WHO is doing this. That would require conjecture, so I'll stick to the facts as currently known. The fact is it's happening and has been for a long time.

Who or why? Any one of answers 1-5, as laid out above, is possible. Some of the answers are less convincing than others. My money is on the Gremlins, although I nearly went with answer number 3 - almost as plausible.

its always gremlins, one way or the other.

martinhpb16_ESO · July 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Big guilds selling stalls? You can document this postulate yes? Im a member of multiple of the largest trade guilds, none of these sells stalls, they need to get their main trader. If they were to sell stalls how would they get their main trader? Can yuo explain exactly how big guilds is selling stalls? Because I dont understand how that would work?

It works more or less like this : Guild A has 30millions. They use 15 millions for their main bid and create guild "G" (Ghost). They give guild G the remaining 15mio to bid on some other spot - which they win, too. Since they have no need for it, they look for a guild that lost their bid and resells them the second spot for 20mio (they free the spot simply by disbanding the "G" guild).

In the end they have their main trader spot AND 5mio benefit (to reinvest in next week's bidding).

I can't say if it's such a common practice as some people say it is, but in theory, that's how it works.

On PC EU people only pay

generalmyrick wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

they don't want our crappy spots, they'll develop a thirsty way to get back on top! :-) be patient!

People do want your crappy spot. Every guild will be bidding x 10 across all spots, don't imagine that you have some sort of immunity. Also new jacks on the scene will be pitching across 10 crappy spots. If you want your crappy spot you can bet your bottom gold piece someone else will too.

Also rather than framing this issue into the single viewpoint of just your spot why not have a thought for everyone across the board, with the good spots and the crappy spots. Even if it does only affect the good spots, whats that 50% or 75% of spots?

Isn't that a bad thing?

i love this kinda thing right here... :-)

yes, im sure the old elitist trading guilds, who spend MILLIONS every week, are coming ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the way down to the old Sadrith Mora to kick me off my crappy spot. yes, you right. I can see this forum is way above my intelligence level.

i didn't say i had immunity! :-)

everybody, to my knowledge says they don't have the gold to bid across all 10 crappy spots? now we got "new jacks" (you craft those?) popping up like mushrooms to outbid everybody on the crappy spots? how many new jacks you estimate comin to old Panersewen in North Auridon?

They going to chase me to the Dune? Old mournhold mafia going to come all the way to dune to battle me over Uzarrur? I WILL STICK MY TONGUE IN THEIR EAR!!! I WILL OWN MOURNHOLD MAFIA IF THEY COME TO DUNE!!!!

wait wait wait, guilds that charge their people 15k a week, want my spot! ok, i concede you win.

as for the new jacks! lets do some math...this one likes math, there are over 200 guild kiosks, right?
i consider the crappy spots to number = i consider 33 spots out of my league and thus, not crappy, jack!

so, 167 spots! takes 167 guilds to win.

*WHISTLES!!!!*

i win my guild spots with 500k each week, all donations, however, i've run my guild like a corporation the past 3 years and we are sitting on a fat bankroll...we can match the 500k 10x each week...shoot, we can match up to 1.2 million every week and never go broke. i predict i will be bidding like 10x guilds on crappy spots, while the scenario you have so pointed out is a set of new jacks (will they even stick around? if they lose a bid here and there?) and crappy money will be my only adversary? <
because as you have read in this thread, the mid and small sized guilds cannot pull in the gold every week to bid their max bid on 10 spots!

i still standby that the "BID 10-15 MILLION EVERY WEEK GUILDS" do not want the crappy spots i go for and the small/mid guilds can't match my research and gold reserves...because i don't like the gold sink idea and have out thought it for years.
=======================
im sensitive, i took the whole "framing blah blah" mean and unnecessary. discussion is noble until some fool throws feces on it.

Oh well you are ok then. Its just everyone else who is screwed, but that ok because it will have zero effect on you or how trading works. I'm just gonna up sticks and plonk my millions on your crappy spot because no-one will ever bid on it apparently.

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2019

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

You don't know that there are more spots than super rich guilds, or even players. Please supply these ratios of super rich guilds vs. vendors. So, we can all feel comforted. Let's not forget the individual players, who can buy guild spots with newly formed guilds, and use the guild finder tool each week as well.

Let's comfort you then.

There are some... 300? trader spots in the game (per megaserver) and about 30 mega-rich guilds.
(approx. 6 in Belkarth, 6 in Rawl, 6 in Mournhold, 6 in EldenRoot, 6 in Wayrest). Let's make it 40 in case I've forgotten some good spots (Vivec, etc.).

How do I know there are not more "super-rich guilds" ? Well, if there were, they would bid on those top spots and kick you out. Simple as that.

All remaining 80-90% of spots are currently detained by not-so-rich guilds, even by poor guilds. Considering the appalling inventory of most of the cheapest guild traders, we can pretty safely say that they cost close to nothing (else guilds would be more careful about their return on investment). These guilds will not pay huge amounts of gold for any ransom-stall offered by a ghost guild.

With multibidding, there will be a lot of movements UP and a lot of movement DOWN, but there's no reason why there should be more guilds all of a sudden. Maybe more guilds will try their luck and that's a good thing. But in general, 10x more bids doesn't equal to 10x more guilds. The number is the same.

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

For each one that does exist, another guild loses it's spot. So, how will the demand be lower? That would only be the case if A.) there were more vendors added, B.) the exploits were removed, and C.) smaller, midsized, and newer guilds could afford to also make multiple bids. As long as those 3 negatives are in play, the system will still be abused, and be unfair to some.

Wrong in many aspects.
Not every guild that exists causes another one to lose a spot. They need to win a bid against someone else for that. And they already had a stall, they're making one free, too. You seem to be overseeing this.

Smaller, midsized and newer guilds CAN afoord to make multiple bids. It's very easy.

Ardan147 · July 2019

reoskit wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

The rest of the week the sales died away bcs everyone knew that rawl was a bad hub that week, so it wasn't worth the loading screen. The 2 remaining guilds had one of tge worst selling weeks that time aroundish in that specific week.

Exactly. I think it's a stupid idea if profit is the goal.

I did leave out one other reason for taking a kiosk with a ghost guild...

Sometimes it's done as retribution, to kick a rival guild out of their spot... And that gives me seeeerious pause.

Right now, things are relatively civil on PCNA. The incoming fustercluck of guilds bidding on each others spots is going to create some ridiculously bad blood once we all start shifting around. Retribution is going to be the name of the game and it's going to get ugly.

Sigh. I absolutely do not look forward to any of this.

Edit - typo.

A while back there was a guild that was bouncing around and knocking off other guilds; they had done this to one of my guilds (that then had their trader in Mournhold) a couple of times already. So, when our leaders got word that they were coming after us again, we turned around and knocked off one of their sister guilds, located in Vivec City. Well, that guild learned its lesson, and has remained in the same spot ever since.

Initially the move to Vivec City was intended just to be short term, but when our sales numbers increased from when we were in Mournhold we decided to stay there permanently.

Arrodisia · July 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

You don't know that there are more spots than super rich guilds, or even players. Please supply these ratios of super rich guilds vs. vendors. So, we can all feel comforted. Let's not forget the individual players, who can buy guild spots with newly formed guilds, and use the guild finder tool each week as well.

Let's comfort you then.

There are some... 300? trader spots in the game (per megaserver) and about 30 mega-rich guilds.
(approx. 6 in Belkarth, 6 in Rawl, 6 in Mournhold, 6 in EldenRoot, 6 in Wayres Let's make it 40 in case I've forgotten some good spots (Vivec, etc.).

How do I know there are not more "super-rich guilds" ? Well, if there were, they would bid on those top spots and kick you out. Simple as that.

All remaining 80-90% of spots are currently detained by not-so-rich guilds, even by poor guilds. Considering the appalling inventory of most of the cheapest guild traders, we can pretty safely say that they cost close to nothing (else guilds would be more careful about their return on investment). These guilds will not pay huge amounts of gold for any ransom-stall offered by a ghost guild.

With multibidding, there will be a lot of movements UP and a lot of movement DOWN, but there's no reason why there should be more guilds all of a sudden. Maybe more guilds will try their luck and that's a good thing. But in general, 10x more bids doesn't equal to 10x more guilds. The number is the same.

That's still your say so, and quite poorly done. Those super rich guilds have many sister guilds in other areas besides those mentioned by you. So no. You're assumptions aren't accurate. How about giving us something more concrete than your guesses. Guilds get kicked out and left without vendors each week. Even after some of the guilds pay ransom for their spot, there are still guilds left without vendors. Your statements don't fully support current in game activity. All of my points still stand. Smaller guilds have little chance against deep pockets scrambling for spots. I'll just agree to disagree. At least, you didn't try to bait me again. Cheers.

martinhpb16_ESO · July 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

You don't know that there are more spots than super rich guilds, or even players. Please supply these ratios of super rich guilds vs. vendors. So, we can all feel comforted. Let's not forget the individual players, who can buy guild spots with newly formed guilds, and use the guild finder tool each week as well.

Let's comfort you then.

There are some... 300? trader spots in the game (per megaserver) and about 30 mega-rich guilds.
(approx. 6 in Belkarth, 6 in Rawl, 6 in Mournhold, 6 in EldenRoot, 6 in Wayrest). Let's make it 40 in case I've forgotten some good spots (Vivec, etc.).

How do I know there are not more "super-rich guilds" ? Well, if there were, they would bid on those top spots and kick you out. Simple as that.

All remaining 80-90% of spots are currently detained by not-so-rich guilds, even by poor guilds. Considering the appalling inventory of most of the cheapest guild traders, we can pretty safely say that they cost close to nothing (else guilds would be more careful about their return on investment). These guilds will not pay huge amounts of gold for any ransom-stall offered by a ghost guild.

With multibidding, there will be a lot of movements UP and a lot of movement DOWN, but there's no reason why there should be more guilds all of a sudden. Maybe more guilds will try their luck and that's a good thing. But in general, 10x more bids doesn't equal to 10x more guilds. The number is the same.

You are forgetting that many of the big rich guilds own more than one guild, often 2-3. That there are alliances that give access to gold. Also you miss that there are guilds that allow botters and gold sellers and have access to lots of gold but keep a low profile.

you assume that there will be a lot of movement up and down but you dont explain how this will happen?

What will happen is that big guilds will raise bids because there is more likelihood that rogues will take them out. When bid guilds do lose they will be bidding on lesser guilds not in an alliance and with little funds. Those guilds will have to raise requirements and bids. Rogues guilds with their illegal money will have a field day.

multi bidding is not going to miraculously mean that guilds with no money will suddenly get to the top.

Sooner or later alliances and big guilds will more likely clash.

multibidding will however mean more deviousness as money tries to control a more uncertain world.

Multi-bidding is not the path to nirvana it is a chaos grenade thrown into a tiny fishpond.

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2019

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Guilds get kicked out and left without vendors each week.

And when that happens it means that new guilds come in. Which is a good thing. Obviously not in your opinion. You seem to "entitled" to your spot.

Arrodisia · July 2019

double

Dont_do_drugs · July 2019

its 212 trader, not 300.