ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

Nerf to aoe (half of the sorc toolkit), nerf to lightning splash itself, no buff to crystal frag (no, its not buffed, thats why they stated it retains the previous damage), nerf to shield, nerf to pets (other half of sorc toolkit). Good job, Zenimax, I see the people making these changes obviously play nightblade.

I can agree with you if they only nerf magsorc this harshly, but ZOS nerfed EVERYONE!
I'm quite ok with the pets nerf however, they are way too overpeforming for how little effort they require, while non-pet magsorc takes a lot more skill and finesse somehow deal less damage.
Pets are basically training wheels. If you cannot pull decent dps without them, then you're not worthy to call yourself a magsorc imo. I'm sorry if I sound harsh but that's my stand on this matter.

"If you cannot pull decent dps without them, then you're not worthy to call yourself a magsorc imo." This is not about cannot pull decent dps, but about not pulling best dps as u can pull with them. Thats why they are used. 99% of sorcs hate pets and wanna play without them, but their damage output (without any doubt and discussion, u are blind if u think its not true) is way higher than that of anyone without pet. No matter how good the person is, he is always gonna do better dps with pet. So its not about if we can or cannot. Its about whats the best, and pets are the best, otherwise no one would use them. And truth is, without pets sorc wont be welcome to trials as much as any other class that can outdps them.

Well this patch does exactly what we wanted: Make us play magsorc confidently without relying on pets.
I understand that some of you will say "but why nerf pet sorc, instead of buffing non-pet"? The answer is simple: Buffing is no longer a relevant way of balancing the game.
While balancing the game, there exist a certain "balance threshold" . This is where the game is fun for everyone in PvE, and fair for everyone in PvP (I'm using "everyone" for the lack of better word, but we all know that's not 100% correct).
Power creep however, has been affecting this game for way too long (partly due to the CP system), and the overall landscape of thing is that we have crossed that "balance threshold" by miles away. One shot mechanic in PvP, unkillable tank 1vX in Cyrodill, faceroll through any vet dungeons and even kill the damn boss in 30 secs, these aren't very fun to play with or against, and certainly not fair in any regard. You may laugh once or twice when you realize you can 1 shot noobs in Battleground with your stamNB, but that's about it, 1 or 2 cheap laughs.
I know a lot of you want to "be the best that I can", or "this is an RPG, let us be what we want", but this isn't just an RPG, this is an MMORPG. It's not about you anymore, it's about the whole community, it's about everyone, and even though what might come would not please you the way you want, that's not the important point. What matters is how we as a community feel about it.

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Not sure if you're aware of this, put petsorc is very desired in trial score run for 3 very simple reasons:
1. Their dps is not UNDERPERFORMING, not 1 bit. I can pull 90k on my 1 pet setup on live, and for perspective, I can pull 96k dps on a stamcro on PTS (the Elsweyr PTS). So that's hardly 6k dps lost, that's less than 10% of petsorc total dps. Not to mention the amount of synergy + major berserk they can provide.
2. They are SO MUCH EASIER TO PLAY. Petsorc rotation is far more easier than a lot of other class with 0 buff to maintain and only curst + twilight timer to keep an eye on.
3. They are much more unlikely to lose dps when the fight requires some leg work, aka running around, dodging and doing mechanic. The pet deals most of the dps, and petsorcs don't need any kind of complicated setup, just 2 AOE DOT and 1 curse.

Ive seen DPS charts taken by ZOS itself. They´re out there. Sorcs were like 6th or so. 90k on ST on live? Video or not happening.
Easier to play? Sure. That doesn´t mean much for balance issues. My templar has easier rotation imho. Easier rotation dont have to mean worse DPS. And actually, as i said and there are charts to prove it, sorcs have worse DPS ...
Won´t lose DPS? Depends on build. Petsorcs rely on HAs and you lose them if you have to move. If the boss move, you lose your ground AOE, etc...
Pets deal most of the DPS? So you´re saying that a pet is doing most of your 90k DPS. Wow, now i really want to see that video of yours...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N9spInKIgM&t=25s

Not sure why you sound like I was a lying moron when you can easily prove my point by just typing petsorc dps parse on youtube...

That´s Liko on a raid dummy, bro. You said on Live. Quoting yourself "i can pull 90k on my 1 pet setup on live" You´re not Liko, you said you could do 90k on Live. Again, that´s not what you said. Put a video of you doing 90k, that´s what i asked you. I already saw Liko´s video before, but only Liko can do such things, to optimize dummy tests in a way he does. I´ve seen Liko doing 102k on stamcro. Hell, he did 98k with a stamplar!! And 97k with Warden. And again: charts, Liko DPS videos, etc... all them put magsorc around 6th position on DPS scale.

I´m okay if ZOS nerfs pets and buff non pets. Most of the sorcs i know dislike them, and only use them due necesity. Some people have commented that Sorcsm being "easy to play" (i disagree), should have less DPS and if you want to get better results, you should move to a "real" class! By the way, it wouldn´t be bad if ZOS puts a "begginers class" tag when you create the character. But i doubt this is ZOS intention. Sorcerer isn´t a beginners class. My templar main is 10x easier to play.

You´re nerfing the 6th spot DPS class and not doing the same with the other 5? Good for you, ZOS!

Now seriously, if im a dev and i want class balance, i have to put many things in there: raw DPS, group utility, survability, etc etc... WIth these changes, Sorcs are really a nuissance; already top trial guilds didnt use them, or just one for Minor Prophecy. With these changes, there will be even mag classes who already have a stam build which outparses Sorcs, that will outdo Sorcs. I can´t see class balance here, usually on most MMOs you buff classes at the bottom, and nerf classes at the top. I don´t know why ZOS doesn´t do that.

Sooooooo can someone ensure Matriarch/Tormentor wasn't nerfed so hard that the (previous buffed) Summon Shade OR (newly buffed) Summon Skeletal Mage doesn't do more DPS than them?

You know, Summon Shade that single slot ability dripping with utility that only had the downside of crap damage? Comparison doesn't work as well for Summon Skeletal Mage but at least it provides corpses.

It'd be atrocious if after years of buffing (and then nerfing, then buffing again) Summon Scamp/Twilight keep all the downsides of 2-slot targetable (killable/CCable) pets but lose any upsides to the nerf train.

Just give us a class heal so we don't need that stupid bird.

Need to destroy a pet? Strengthen another ability. This is a balance.

My suggestion is a complete redesign of Twilight Tormentor.

5.1.0
The m.sorcerer is dead. Thanks ZOS!!!

PetSorc should use Entropy and Soul Trap.
These are lullabies for the crying PetSorc.
PetSorc can be adapted.

master_vanargand wrote: »

PetSorc should use Entropy and Soul Trap.
These are lullabies for the crying PetSorc.
PetSorc can be adapted.

No room for skills on petsorc. That´s one of the hindrances of using pets, as you all well know.

Right now, in first tests, magsorc drops 10k DPS compared with Live. Sure, we will use Entrophy and Soul Trap as ST dots, which aren´t better at all than the stam ones, btw. Still it´s a huge DPS nerf and we will see how Entrophy can save the sustain and/or healing we lose aswell playing pets.

Another option is to change to stamsorc, they´re ok in PST right now, around 100k DPS. I guess ZOS will give race tokens after this patch!

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

Not sure if you're aware of this, put petsorc is very desired in trial score run for 3 very simple reasons:
1. Their dps is not UNDERPERFORMING, not 1 bit. I can pull 90k on my 1 pet setup on live, and for perspective, I can pull 96k dps on a stamcro on PTS (the Elsweyr PTS). So that's hardly 6k dps lost, that's less than 10% of petsorc total dps. Not to mention the amount of synergy + major berserk they can provide.
2. They are SO MUCH EASIER TO PLAY. Petsorc rotation is far more easier than a lot of other class with 0 buff to maintain and only curst + twilight timer to keep an eye on.
3. They are much more unlikely to lose dps when the fight requires some leg work, aka running around, dodging and doing mechanic. The pet deals most of the dps, and petsorcs don't need any kind of complicated setup, just 2 AOE DOT and 1 curse.

Ive seen DPS charts taken by ZOS itself. They´re out there. Sorcs were like 6th or so. 90k on ST on live? Video or not happening.
Easier to play? Sure. That doesn´t mean much for balance issues. My templar has easier rotation imho. Easier rotation dont have to mean worse DPS. And actually, as i said and there are charts to prove it, sorcs have worse DPS ...
Won´t lose DPS? Depends on build. Petsorcs rely on HAs and you lose them if you have to move. If the boss move, you lose your ground AOE, etc...
Pets deal most of the DPS? So you´re saying that a pet is doing most of your 90k DPS. Wow, now i really want to see that video of yours...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N9spInKIgM&t=25s

Not sure why you sound like I was a lying moron when you can easily prove my point by just typing petsorc dps parse on youtube...

That´s Liko on a raid dummy, bro. You said on Live. Quoting yourself "i can pull 90k on my 1 pet setup on live" You´re not Liko, you said you could do 90k on Live. Again, that´s not what you said. Put a video of you doing 90k, that´s what i asked you. I already saw Liko´s video before, but only Liko can do such things, to optimize dummy tests in a way he does. I´ve seen Liko doing 102k on stamcro. Hell, he did 98k with a stamplar!! And 97k with Warden. And again: charts, Liko DPS videos, etc... all them put magsorc around 6th position on DPS scale.

I´m okay if ZOS nerfs pets and buff non pets. Most of the sorcs i know dislike them, and only use them due necesity. Some people have commented that Sorcsm being "easy to play" (i disagree), should have less DPS and if you want to get better results, you should move to a "real" class! By the way, it wouldn´t be bad if ZOS puts a "begginers class" tag when you create the character. But i doubt this is ZOS intention. Sorcerer isn´t a beginners class. My templar main is 10x easier to play.

You´re nerfing the 6th spot DPS class and not doing the same with the other 5? Good for you, ZOS!

Now seriously, if im a dev and i want class balance, i have to put many things in there: raw DPS, group utility, survability, etc etc... WIth these changes, Sorcs are really a nuissance; already top trial guilds didnt use them, or just one for Minor Prophecy. With these changes, there will be even mag classes who already have a stam build which outparses Sorcs, that will outdo Sorcs. I can´t see class balance here, usually on most MMOs you buff classes at the bottom, and nerf classes at the top. I don´t know why ZOS doesn´t do that.

I don't know why you think Liko is some kind of dps parse god, that no one can imitate what he's done. I'm not even sure why you're insisting me to make a video about this very trivia thing that has nothing to do with the point I'm making.
And as I've already said: the number is not everything. For once, you cannot hope to achieve this kind of dps number in a real raid environment. These numbers do not represent how good a class is in trial runs. They only prove 1 thing: the maximum potential of the class. In trials, consistency is what you need, not maximum dps, and nothing is more consistence than having immortal pets doing the dirty work for you without any risk, minimum setup and resource free.
And if you find magplar is even easier to play than magsorc, then it's good for you, 100% power to you. But that doesn't mean petsorc isn't easy to play. I find stamDK and magDK very easy to play since I'm a DK main. My best friend in ESO think stamNB is easy, since he's a NB main. But both of us can agree that petsorc is by far the easiest dps to play effectively. You just summon 2 pets, lay down 2 AOE DOT and 1 single target DOT, then just spam Imbue or Frag. And every skills are in sync with their timer (which magDK do not have that type of fancy). I'm not even sure how you can prove to anyone that petsorc isn't one of the most, if not the most braindead easy class to play as a DPS in this whole game.
I DO AGREE WITH YOU THAT THE NORMAL MAGSORC NEED SOME KIND OF BUFFS, but since this patch is still hot and fresh, there are still things to figure out before I can address any suggestion to buff magsorc for now.
But let's not pretend like petsorc/magsorc is some kind of underdog and they are not easy to play. Even if petsorc is placed 6th on the dps chart, that's still the middle spot, not the last.

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I don't know why you think Liko is some kind of dps parse god, that no one can imitate what he's done. I'm not even sure why you're insisting me to make a video about this very trivia thing that has nothing to do with the point I'm making.
And as I've already said: the number is not everything. For once, you cannot hope to achieve this kind of dps number in a real raid environment. These numbers do not represent how good a class is in trial runs. They only prove 1 thing: the maximum potential of the class. In trials, consistency is what you need, not maximum dps, and nothing is more consistence than having immortal pets doing the dirty work for you without any risk, minimum setup and resource free.
And if you find magplar is even easier to play than magsorc, then it's good for you, 100% power to you. But that doesn't mean petsorc isn't easy to play. I find stamDK and magDK very easy to play since I'm a DK main. My best friend in ESO think stamNB is easy, since he's a NB main. But both of us can agree that petsorc is by far the easiest dps to play effectively. You just summon 2 pets, lay down 2 AOE DOT and 1 single target DOT, then just spam Imbue or Frag. And every skills are in sync with their timer (which magDK do not have that type of fancy). I'm not even sure how you can prove to anyone that petsorc isn't one of the most, if not the most braindead easy class to play as a DPS in this whole game.
I DO AGREE WITH YOU THAT THE NORMAL MAGSORC NEED SOME KIND OF BUFFS, but since this patch is still hot and fresh, there are still things to figure out before I can address any suggestion to buff magsorc for now.
But let's not pretend like petsorc/magsorc is some kind of underdog and they are not easy to play. Even if petsorc is placed 6th on the dps chart, that's still the middle spot, not the last.

Well, Liko is a DPS parse God. I agree on it doesnt really mean anything but test how good a class is performing. Actually i didnt complain having less DPS than let´s say a NB. Sorcs had advantages, as utility. But again, best trial groups dont bring loads of petsorcs so that must mean anything, don´t you think?

Actually, everything posted here i can agree with. Petsorcs are easy to play? yeah they are. Magsorcs are right now in a BAD position, specially considering that it´s not a tank nor a healer class. Only can do DPS effectively and it´s not close to the top DPS classes, some of them can play another roles effectibly aswell btw.

What ive been saying since first time i started is that sorc is not overpowered at all. Actually, is behind most stamina classes in DPS and can´t effectively do other role (even more after this patch).

The only good thing the class have/had it was simplicity. People with high latency could put acceptable DPS; not top DPS, but still good enough to play the class and feel well. If you´re a wizard with your fingers and don´t get tired of be ubber keen on spamming buttons minute after minute, after a hard day of work, then Sorc was your class. And with current changes, ... well, there are already charts, magsorcs came from 91k to 83k while stam classes doing same or even better charts (stamsorcs went around 100k, for example).

The people who really want to give the 100% of their playing resources can play another class and will get better rewards. Now we got that those who play Magsorc will be behind DPS, with no simplicity as they wont play pets because they´re unbareable, will have to play the same game that other DPS with worse DPS, worse sustain (i really hope we don´t disagree here aswell) and bad healing once we dont have Vigor, our shields got also nerfed and we got no playable burst heal.

If you don´t like pets, sure go nerf them... but bring balance to a class which is not at the peak, at all (just check how few nonpet sorcs were playing lately). Many sorc players actually dont like to be forced to play with pets to be effective. ZOS only provides nerfs but no real buffs except on some general skills. And cannot you understand we players are angry?

Last question. Accepting that Sorcs are in the middle of the DPS charts, don´t you feel that if i was dev, my idea of balance would be nerf classes at the peak, or buff classes that aren´t there? Because it´s happening the opposite.

All i see is a bunch of pve players complaining the game won't carry them through content they can't do anymore.

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

I don't know why you think Liko is some kind of dps parse god, that no one can imitate what he's done. I'm not even sure why you're insisting me to make a video about this very trivia thing that has nothing to do with the point I'm making.
And as I've already said: the number is not everything. For once, you cannot hope to achieve this kind of dps number in a real raid environment. These numbers do not represent how good a class is in trial runs. They only prove 1 thing: the maximum potential of the class. In trials, consistency is what you need, not maximum dps, and nothing is more consistence than having immortal pets doing the dirty work for you without any risk, minimum setup and resource free.
And if you find magplar is even easier to play than magsorc, then it's good for you, 100% power to you. But that doesn't mean petsorc isn't easy to play. I find stamDK and magDK very easy to play since I'm a DK main. My best friend in ESO think stamNB is easy, since he's a NB main. But both of us can agree that petsorc is by far the easiest dps to play effectively. You just summon 2 pets, lay down 2 AOE DOT and 1 single target DOT, then just spam Imbue or Frag. And every skills are in sync with their timer (which magDK do not have that type of fancy). I'm not even sure how you can prove to anyone that petsorc isn't one of the most, if not the most braindead easy class to play as a DPS in this whole game.
I DO AGREE WITH YOU THAT THE NORMAL MAGSORC NEED SOME KIND OF BUFFS, but since this patch is still hot and fresh, there are still things to figure out before I can address any suggestion to buff magsorc for now.
But let's not pretend like petsorc/magsorc is some kind of underdog and they are not easy to play. Even if petsorc is placed 6th on the dps chart, that's still the middle spot, not the last.

Well, Liko is a DPS parse God. I agree on it doesnt really mean anything but test how good a class is performing. Actually i didnt complain having less DPS than let´s say a NB. Sorcs had advantages, as utility. But again, best trial groups dont bring loads of petsorcs so that must mean anything, don´t you think?

Actually, everything posted here i can agree with. Petsorcs are easy to play? yeah they are. Magsorcs are right now in a BAD position, specially considering that it´s not a tank nor a healer class. Only can do DPS effectively and it´s not close to the top DPS classes, some of them can play another roles effectibly aswell btw.

What ive been saying since first time i started is that sorc is not overpowered at all. Actually, is behind most stamina classes in DPS and can´t effectively do other role (even more after this patch).

The only good thing the class have/had it was simplicity. People with high latency could put acceptable DPS; not top DPS, but still good enough to play the class and feel well. If you´re a wizard with your fingers and don´t get tired of be ubber keen on spamming buttons minute after minute, after a hard day of work, then Sorc was your class. And with current changes, ... well, there are already charts, magsorcs came from 91k to 83k while stam classes doing same or even better charts (stamsorcs went around 100k, for example).

The people who really want to give the 100% of their playing resources can play another class and will get better rewards. Now we got that those who play Magsorc will be behind DPS, with no simplicity as they wont play pets because they´re unbareable, will have to play the same game that other DPS with worse DPS, worse sustain (i really hope we don´t disagree here aswell) and bad healing once we dont have Vigor, our shields got also nerfed and we got no playable burst heal.

If you don´t like pets, sure go nerf them... but bring balance to a class which is not at the peak, at all (just check how few nonpet sorcs were playing lately). Many sorc players actually dont like to be forced to play with pets to be effective. ZOS only provides nerfs but no real buffs except on some general skills. And cannot you understand we players are angry?

Last question. Accepting that Sorcs are in the middle of the DPS charts, don´t you feel that if i was dev, my idea of balance would be nerf classes at the peak, or buff classes that aren´t there? Because it´s happening the opposite.

That, however, is not how I see things this patch. The only class setup that suffers in this patch is petsorc. Every single other class setups take a hit or 2 in this patch. The only class that I can tell took the least damage is DK.

I do however feel like there are certain classes that need help (and some even need jesus for god sake). Magden has been a punching bag for way too long now. The new magcro is utterly garbage compare to the superior stamina counterpart. Magblade has not been performing well lately despite being quite difficult to master. And werewolf nerf is just a big WTF to me, I seriously don't understand these changes to werewolf.

You might point of that: But hey, stamcro is easily the top tier dps class right now, and they took close to no hit, and to that I say, of course they didn't. It's fully expected since Elsweyr is still hot from the oven.