Royaji wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

BennyButton wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

It's not just about what you want either. So that's where your argument falls off the rails.

So long as players can get the job done - they should be left alone to play their character as they wish. Demanding that other players change their builds to be more "efficient" is forcing their own priorities onto others - which is the every definition of entitlement.

Your me vs. them mentality is dangerous and laughably not in line with an endgame support player.

If you want to do end game raiding (vDLC HM trials) you create your own non-meta group and have a grand old time. I'll be over here clearing trials.

No what's laughable is players who believe others should have to build their characters to meet their own personal standards of "efficiency".

No. They just believe that they want to play in a group, where everyone is willing to build their character to achieve their standards of efficiency.

There is a difference.

If certain people want to get together and build their own groups where certain standards of "efficiency" are understood - I don't really have a problem with that. So long as those people keep that kind of nonsense among themselves and don't expect it of others who could really care less about meeting their standards of so-called "efficiency".

The ridiculous healing nerfs are cause of PVP, mainly performance. aoe spamming causes a lot of lag. So they change healing springs and orbs to keep players from spamming it. Therefore reducing lag on the servers. PVP yet again screwing over PVE

Wearing specific sets for specific buffs is perfectly acceptable for group compositions - you can't take a 4 cyl honda engine, throw it in a 69 Chevelle and expect to pull 10s in a 1/4 mile. Demanding sets be worn is in part to ensure that everyone is capable of producing maximum effectiveness before the raid even starts.

I'm not much unlike you Jeremy, but I wouldn't push a non-meta loadout on a group that is looking for a meta loadout. People will generally take me when they want something reliable where high effectiveness isn't too much of a concern. I don't get butthurt when people opt for something else because I understand where I fall out on the performance spectrum simply because of my gear selection.

Healer's gear won't need to change any gear because of this. There is no need to. Stam just literally got afforded an extra skill slot. For Stamplar that's extended ritual, Stam DK is fragmented shield, Stamblade is Power Extraction, Stam warden is shrooms or lotus flower, Stamsorc is literally nothing except maybe crit surge, Stam Necro can do stam necro things.

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... I’m sick and tired of the meta crowd that forces others to wear set x or use build y to be accepted.

I'm sick of it too.

Nothing ruins an MMORPG faster than endgame conformity. Creating your own build is a large part of what makes RPG games fun and interesting to begin with and developers should work to preserve and encourage that aspect of the game. As I've said before on here: Variety is the spice of life.

how does "end game conformity" impact your game at all?

It impacts the game generally - and leads to a decline in build diversity because it causes many players to abandon their own pursuits in order to appease some endgame guild.

Me personally, it doesn't affect because I could care less what people think of my builds. But it's impact on the game itself is something I do get sick of.

so why do you care about it if it has no impact on your game? A lot of people like to get good at the game, use team play, develop friendships and have fun over nessesarily having a unique build.

And that’s determined by one or two abilities? Again my question, let’s assume the changes go live as they are in the notes: what are you going to do?

If things goes through as is I won't be playing eso anymore as I don't want to play a game getting progressively worse, Orbs allowed me to be insanely effective as a healer. Without them I will be forced to go back to a playstyle with a much lower skill ceiling and I have no intention of doing that. I have no intention of clap healing godslayer when I know what was possible just months before.

So it’s exactly what I said in another thread: one single skill is make or break for your enjoyment of the game. Now tell me, is this the game‘s fault when it changes or is it your fault by putting so much weight on a specific ability? Why couldn’t you just simply build around it or find a way to solve the problem? Wouldn’t that actually be way better, going through sets, skills, builds to create something new that does the trick the same way instead of relying on something that was sooner or later bout to be changed?

usmcjdking wrote: »

Wearing specific sets for specific buffs is perfectly acceptable for group compositions - you can't take a 4 cyl honda engine, throw it in a 69 Chevelle and expect to pull 10s in a 1/4 mile. Demanding sets be worn is in part to ensure that everyone is capable of producing maximum effectiveness before the raid even starts.

I'm not much unlike you Jeremy, but I wouldn't push a non-meta loadout on a group that is looking for a meta loadout. People will generally take me when they want something reliable where high effectiveness isn't too much of a concern. I don't get butthurt when people opt for something else because I understand where I fall out on the performance spectrum simply because of my gear selection.

Healer's gear won't need to change any gear because of this. There is no need to. Stam just literally got afforded an extra skill slot. For Stamplar that's extended ritual, Stam DK is fragmented shield, Stamblade is Power Extraction, Stam warden is shrooms or lotus flower, Stamsorc is literally nothing except maybe crit surge, Stam Necro can do stam necro things.

That's why I was careful to contextualize my remarks around the phrase so long as they can get the job done. In my opinion - so long as the player is pulling their weight and doing his or her job they ought to be left alone to play as they wish. To expect certain specific builds or gear set ups for "Maximum Efficiency" is going too far in my opinion and not something I would ever support. But if certain guilds want to get together and do that kind of thing voluntarily then that's their business - just so long as they don't try to involve me in it.

My main issue here is when players expect others to abide by their own endgame "meta" or what ever it is they are calling it. LIke berating a healer because they aren't spamming orbs because that's what their endgame guild does. I see a lot of that - and it's starting to resemble what people used to do over that Retribution spell people used to go nuts over if a Templar dared not use it. That's what prompted my remark.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... I’m sick and tired of the meta crowd that forces others to wear set x or use build y to be accepted.

I'm sick of it too.

Nothing ruins an MMORPG faster than endgame conformity. Creating your own build is a large part of what makes RPG games fun and interesting to begin with and developers should work to preserve and encourage that aspect of the game. As I've said before on here: Variety is the spice of life.

how does "end game conformity" impact your game at all?

It impacts the game generally - and leads to a decline in build diversity because it causes many players to abandon their own pursuits in order to appease some endgame guild.

Me personally, it doesn't affect because I could care less what people think of my builds. But it's impact on the game itself is something I do get sick of.

so why do you care about it if it has no impact on your game? A lot of people like to get good at the game, use team play, develop friendships and have fun over nessesarily having a unique build.

And that’s determined by one or two abilities? Again my question, let’s assume the changes go live as they are in the notes: what are you going to do?

If things goes through as is I won't be playing eso anymore as I don't want to play a game getting progressively worse, Orbs allowed me to be insanely effective as a healer. Without them I will be forced to go back to a playstyle with a much lower skill ceiling and I have no intention of doing that. I have no intention of clap healing godslayer when I know what was possible just months before.

So it’s exactly what I said in another thread: one single skill is make or break for your enjoyment of the game. Now tell me, is this the game‘s fault when it changes or is it your fault by putting so much weight on a specific ability? Why couldn’t you just simply build around it or find a way to solve the problem? Wouldn’t that actually be way better, going through sets, skills, builds to create something new that does the trick the same way?

Considering just how few skills are actually viable right now it's not surprising that they would ruin the enjoyment of the game. The two strongest HoTs in the game where not only adjusted, or slightly nerfed. They were fundamentally changed to a point where they are no longer viable for the job they were supposed to perform. I'll tell you this. Mention a single skill in this game that can provide just 50% of the HoT from springs and Orbs. And I might actually consider trying it out. The problem is, there is not a single HoT in the game that can do that. There is no replacement for springs and Orbs, which means that we will have to go back to spamming clap healing to survive execute phases. And the last thing I'll do in my time in ESO is clap healing trials. There is no wonder waiting around the corner that can do the same trick. At least not as of now. Dps players will always find a way because their rotation is a simple calculation "there will always be a BiS setup". But healers have more balls in the air. Healing over time is the key to being a successful healer as it allows global cooldowns to be allocated towards group utility. For the best healers in the world that is 30%. For most healers it's realistically 20% or less. Without access to HoT tools we are just glorified Monster Sets. A singular purpose with no variation.

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... I’m sick and tired of the meta crowd that forces others to wear set x or use build y to be accepted.

I'm sick of it too.

Nothing ruins an MMORPG faster than endgame conformity. Creating your own build is a large part of what makes RPG games fun and interesting to begin with and developers should work to preserve and encourage that aspect of the game. As I've said before on here: Variety is the spice of life.

how does "end game conformity" impact your game at all?

It impacts the game generally - and leads to a decline in build diversity because it causes many players to abandon their own pursuits in order to appease some endgame guild.

Me personally, it doesn't affect because I could care less what people think of my builds. But it's impact on the game itself is something I do get sick of.

so why do you care about it if it has no impact on your game? A lot of people like to get good at the game, use team play, develop friendships and have fun over nessesarily having a unique build.

And that’s determined by one or two abilities? Again my question, let’s assume the changes go live as they are in the notes: what are you going to do?

If things goes through as is I won't be playing eso anymore as I don't want to play a game getting progressively worse, Orbs allowed me to be insanely effective as a healer. Without them I will be forced to go back to a playstyle with a much lower skill ceiling and I have no intention of doing that. I have no intention of clap healing godslayer when I know what was possible just months before.

So it’s exactly what I said in another thread: one single skill is make or break for your enjoyment of the game. Now tell me, is this the game‘s fault when it changes or is it your fault by putting so much weight on a specific ability? Why couldn’t you just simply build around it or find a way to solve the problem? Wouldn’t that actually be way better, going through sets, skills, builds to create something new that does the trick the same way?

Considering just how few skills are actually viable right now it's not surprising that they would ruin the enjoyment of the game. The two strongest HoTs in the game where not only adjusted, or slightly nerfed. They were fundamentally changed to a point where they are no longer viable for the job they were supposed to perform. I'll tell you this. Mention a single skill in this game that can provide just 50% of the HoT from springs and Orbs. And I might actually consider trying it out. The problem is, there is not a single HoT in the game that can do that. There is no replacement for springs and Orbs, which means that we will have to go back to spamming clap healing to survive execute phases. And the last thing I'll do in my time in ESO is clap healing trials. There is no wonder waiting around the corner that can do the same trick. At least not as of now. Dps players will always find a way because their rotation is a simple calculation "there will always be a BiS setup". But healers have more balls in the air. Healing over time is the key to being a successful healer as it allows global cooldowns to be allocated towards group utility. For the best healers in the world that is 30%. For most healers it's realistically 20% or less. Without access to HoT tools we are just glorified Monster Sets. A singular purpose with no variation.

I just wanted to quickly say thank you for this elaborate answer, I try to answer it specifically tomorrow.

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... I’m sick and tired of the meta crowd that forces others to wear set x or use build y to be accepted.

I'm sick of it too.

Nothing ruins an MMORPG faster than endgame conformity. Creating your own build is a large part of what makes RPG games fun and interesting to begin with and developers should work to preserve and encourage that aspect of the game. As I've said before on here: Variety is the spice of life.

No one is telling you to wear/do this and that. But some people, especially those interested in Hardcore Endgame, (want to) follow the Meta tho. By nerfing this Meta the Variety from before will go *poof*.

People do tell others what to wear/do this and that. Trust me. They do it all the time.

No, all people do is to tell others, what they could/should wear/do to maximize their Damage for example. If people don't want to wear that tho, they don't have to. Lol.

This makes no sense.

What I said in my post is people do tell others what to wear/do this and that.

Then you respond by saying "No, all people do is to tell others, what they could/should wear/do...."

You are basically just repeating what I said.

Of course it makes sense.
You said people tell others what to do/wear. I said, people mainly(like 99,99%) tell others what they could wear or should if they want to make the best out of XY. They are not demanding them to do/wear something, but rather suggesting.;-)

Alright, I sorta see what you were saying now.

I still disagree with you though - because the circumstances I have seen they were not suggesting anything. They were just trashing them for not playing as they thought they should be.

Well, I wasn't claiming that there were no people, who "commanded" others to do this or that.
I had the same issue pretty much in my Raid Guild once, and although they trashed me for my thoughts, I just moved on. I don't agree with them, they neither with me until this day - and tbf, neither will give in so it's pointless to argue. In the end, blocking/muting is the best solution if they get too annoying whatsoever.

For some weird reason - and I blame it on endgame conformity, but who knows, maybe there is another reason - but there is always some spell or ability that people get into their heads is mandatory and everyone must use else they suck. And orbs was one of those skills. I've seen so many healers attacked or ridiculed over that spell it's just ridiculous. So are the forums when they explode at the mere mention of a healer not using orbs. And that's mostly what I am referring to here. It's just silly and why I would support not only these nerfs but just outright deleting the spell all together. I'm just sick of it at this point. When I tank dungeons in the Activity Finder I usually have at least one person frantically spamming orbs in my direction - probably out of fear - none of which I need or even bother to use. lol That's what it has done to people. It's as if people are being literally oppressed into spamming orbs to appease the "elites" of ESO.

Now if people want to suggest build improvements I don't really have a problem with that so long as it's done respectfully. Though I personally don't like to give advice unless it's asked for.

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... I’m sick and tired of the meta crowd that forces others to wear set x or use build y to be accepted.

I'm sick of it too.

Nothing ruins an MMORPG faster than endgame conformity. Creating your own build is a large part of what makes RPG games fun and interesting to begin with and developers should work to preserve and encourage that aspect of the game. As I've said before on here: Variety is the spice of life.

No one is telling you to wear/do this and that. But some people, especially those interested in Hardcore Endgame, (want to) follow the Meta tho. By nerfing this Meta the Variety from before will go *poof*.

People do tell others what to wear/do this and that. Trust me. They do it all the time.

No, all people do is to tell others, what they could/should wear/do to maximize their Damage for example. If people don't want to wear that tho, they don't have to. Lol.

This makes no sense.

What I said in my post is people do tell others what to wear/do this and that.

Then you respond by saying "No, all people do is to tell others, what they could/should wear/do...."

You are basically just repeating what I said.

Of course it makes sense.
You said people tell others what to do/wear. I said, people mainly(like 99,99%) tell others what they could wear or should if they want to make the best out of XY. They are not demanding them to do/wear something, but rather suggesting.;-)

Alright, I sorta see what you were saying now.

I still disagree with you though - because the circumstances I have seen they were not suggesting anything. They were just trashing them for not playing as they thought they should be.

Well, I wasn't claiming that there were no people, who "commanded" others to do this or that.
I had the same issue pretty much in my Raid Guild once, and although they trashed me for my thoughts, I just moved on. I don't agree with them, they neither with me until this day - and tbf, neither will give in so it's pointless to argue. In the end, blocking/muting is the best solution if they get too annoying whatsoever.

For some weird reason - and I blame it on endgame conformity, but who knows, maybe there is another reason - but there is always some spell or ability that people get into their heads is mandatory and everyone must use else they suck. And orbs was one of those skills. I've seen so many healers attacked or ridiculed over that spell it's just ridiculous. So are the forums when they explode at the mere mention of a healer not using orbs. And that's mostly what I am referring to here.

If people want to suggest build improvements I don't really have a problem with that so long as it's done respectfully.

I think many of us "Orb-Spamming-Healers" just feel gutted by this choice, that ZOS made.
In Endgame we feel entitled to provide Synergies for certain Sets or for Resources and therefore Orbs always were handy.
Now I feel a bit thrown over personally, as some of these Sets, that need Synergies, are completely erased although they just were "Meta".

[Like honestly, try to understand me. Farming 1 Raid for 3 Weeks straight, always the same Role etc., just to hear that it will be garbage probably.]

Plus I liked playing something else than just Templar, who has that Resource built in.

Seraphayel wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

If things goes through as is I won't be playing eso anymore as I don't want to play a game getting progressively worse, Orbs allowed me to be insanely effective as a healer. Without them I will be forced to go back to a playstyle with a much lower skill ceiling and I have no intention of doing that. I have no intention of clap healing godslayer when I know what was possible just months before.

So it’s exactly what I said in another thread: one single skill is make or break for your enjoyment of the game. Now tell me, is this the game‘s fault when it changes or is it your fault by putting so much weight on a specific ability? Why couldn’t you just simply build around it or find a way to solve the problem? Wouldn’t that actually be way better, going through sets, skills, builds to create something new that does the trick the same way instead of relying on something that was sooner or later bout to be changed?

@Seraphayel As a healer that has been healing in this game for over 5 years as well as one of the main healers in two Trial guilds, I have to say that your response is exactly what I would expect from a healer who feels that all they have to do is stand in one spot, heal and scream at their other group members to stay in my healing circle.

Healing is more than just throwing out heals and, as a good healer, you rely on all the skills you place on your bars. All these skills not only heal your group, but give them buffs, replenish their resources (ie: health, stamina, magicka), and help dps. This "one single skill" Orbs, does more than just heal the group and the changes they have put in the patch notes not only hurt the effectiveness of a healer, it hurts every player in the group, especially in a 12-man Veteran Trial. Not to mention the changes to Grand Healing. Any good healer would know this.

I mean really, what is a healer suppose to say when running with their Trial group, yell out in Discord "Hey I'm sending out my one single Orb but no one touch it because it needs to go to the tank" you know the one tanking the axes who need the heals and resources back to keep those axes from one shotting the rest of the group!! Oh and while were at it, now that I can only send out one Orb at a time, that now only moves at a speed of 2 meters per second, forget any other buffs, debuffs, damages, etc., that I've always done for my group, in between sending out multiple orbs.

CipherNine wrote: »

The ridiculous healing nerfs are cause of PVP, mainly performance. aoe spamming causes a lot of lag. So they change healing springs and orbs to keep players from spamming it. Therefore reducing lag on the servers. PVP yet again screwing over PVE

Yet another problem they could have just swept under the rug.

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

... I’m sick and tired of the meta crowd that forces others to wear set x or use build y to be accepted.

I'm sick of it too.

Nothing ruins an MMORPG faster than endgame conformity. Creating your own build is a large part of what makes RPG games fun and interesting to begin with and developers should work to preserve and encourage that aspect of the game. As I've said before on here: Variety is the spice of life.

No one is telling you to wear/do this and that. But some people, especially those interested in Hardcore Endgame, (want to) follow the Meta tho. By nerfing this Meta the Variety from before will go *poof*.

People do tell others what to wear/do this and that. Trust me. They do it all the time.

No, all people do is to tell others, what they could/should wear/do to maximize their Damage for example. If people don't want to wear that tho, they don't have to. Lol.

This makes no sense.

What I said in my post is people do tell others what to wear/do this and that.

Then you respond by saying "No, all people do is to tell others, what they could/should wear/do...."

You are basically just repeating what I said.

Of course it makes sense.
You said people tell others what to do/wear. I said, people mainly(like 99,99%) tell others what they could wear or should if they want to make the best out of XY. They are not demanding them to do/wear something, but rather suggesting.;-)

Alright, I sorta see what you were saying now.

I still disagree with you though - because the circumstances I have seen they were not suggesting anything. They were just trashing them for not playing as they thought they should be.

Well, I wasn't claiming that there were no people, who "commanded" others to do this or that.
I had the same issue pretty much in my Raid Guild once, and although they trashed me for my thoughts, I just moved on. I don't agree with them, they neither with me until this day - and tbf, neither will give in so it's pointless to argue. In the end, blocking/muting is the best solution if they get too annoying whatsoever.

For some weird reason - and I blame it on endgame conformity, but who knows, maybe there is another reason - but there is always some spell or ability that people get into their heads is mandatory and everyone must use else they suck. And orbs was one of those skills. I've seen so many healers attacked or ridiculed over that spell it's just ridiculous. So are the forums when they explode at the mere mention of a healer not using orbs. And that's mostly what I am referring to here.

If people want to suggest build improvements I don't really have a problem with that so long as it's done respectfully.

I think many of us "Orb-Spamming-Healers" just feel gutted by this choice, that ZOS made.
In Endgame we feel entitled to provide Synergies for certain Sets or for Resources and therefore Orbs always were handy.
Now I feel a bit thrown over personally, as some of these Sets, that need Synergies, are completely erased although they just were "Meta".[Like honestly, try to understand me. Farming 1 Raid for 3 Weeks straight, always the same Role etc., just to hear that it will be garbage probably.]
Plus I liked playing something else than just Templar, who has that Resource built in.

I honestly have no idea why the developers would even consider healers too powerful at the moment - because I think they are crippled by positional requirements that are unrealistic in the average situation.

Yes, I agree there. It's painful, especially when you are healing in the Group and one damn person has to stand outside for some reason. So you just want to throw out your Burst Heal, but have to turn around for BoL or have to aim perfectly quickly for Warden Shrooms, which often takes too long...*ugh*

And that is what I like about my Sorc Heal, no turning around, just using the Pet and done.

TheZachinator wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

ABuster wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

iLLcrime wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Edit: And the idea that DDs will have to build more for sustain may seem nice if you want THEM to rethink their build. But making them rely less on healers is like... the opposite of what we need. Why take away more utility from healers when they're already not needed for so much content? I already barely need to heal most content, now I can provide less sustain? I'm trying to play a support role here.

You see they’re trying to solve this riddle: healers are healers and not buffers or second DPS. By changing several healing abilities and the changes to resource generating skills healing will become more difficult, e.g. healers will have to do more healing. This results in DPS to self-sustain instead of rely on the healer OR there will be a completely new role of the supporting DPS / buffer / pure supporter.

Except the way it'll end up working now is healers will be forced into a Worm/Hircines build to cater to the DPS like always.

Then simply don’t do it. I am a healer and I refuse to cater to sustain needs DPS can’t or won’t take care of themselves. I’m preventing you from death, that’s my job, not fixing your sustain problems just because you want to build for 100% damage and 0% sustain.

Then you are a bad healer, and no one should care what you think.

Yes mate, if you say so. Then I am proud to be a bad healer. Nevertheless I’m the one who can adapt to the changes coming where others just complain and whine.

Yes you are a bad healer. Good healers are healing more than enough AND buff with real good uptimes. You just admit that you are not able to manage more than one task at once.

I never said I am not doing it. I said as a healer I shouldn’t be doing it. That’s a difference. I refuse to accept the idea of ESOs healer where it’s 25% buffing, 25% resource bot, 25% healing and 25% DPS.

It seems like ZOS is trying to bring back the true healer role which is a design goal I am very pleased with.

Again, attack me, insult me, call me a bad player or a bad healer, it’s pretty much pointless. At least as pointless as a petition.
_____

By the way: let’s assume all of the changes make it to live (you already know, they will), what are you going to do? Rage quit? Or are you going to adapt or find a solution? Be honest.

Guys he plays on Xbox. Mystery solved.

Don't lump all of us together with him. He plays on the EU server. Us over here on the NA server still hold it down.

These changes are huge, and are going to change a lot of the meta. I'm sure most will adapt, as we are a resilient bunch.

For those who are trying to blame PvP for these changes: please stop. 1) It divides our community of players (and the smaller healing community); 2) these changes are almost undoubtedly linked to the orbs and springs heavy rotation seen in PvE.